You didn't answer my question about whether Dr Harley has his email address. Ask him whether he is willing to use Dr Harley's free help, and explain how you feel his work has already helped you, and would bring about the best marriage possible because of the guidance it offers. Persuade him to at least have an email conversation with Dr Harley so that he can get you started.

Hi SugarCane

Dr Harley said about giving BF Dr Harleys email address to start corresponding. I will give it to him on Wednesday.

I have not been sleeping now for over a week. I am getting to sleep ok then waking up at 2/3 am and not getting back to sleep. I am feeling so abandoned and mistreated.

I am getting into a real state.

Even contemplated messaging BF to tell him I am in a bit of a mess. Even though not a good idea.

I am finding the whole thing quite traumatic. Both kids are at school all week so that will give me some respite.

I am concerned that I am going into the lions den on Wednesday.

DS came home from his day out with his Dad on Sunday, when DS came home he said mum when I am with Dad he seems quiet and sometimes angry and yet when he is talking to you he is all happy and bright. I am thinking that is because he is trying to show off how he is fine and happy without me.

I am so sorry I am on here all the time, I am just obsessed with trying to keep my family together. I do love BF too and so worried that he is slipping away through my fingers. I can’t quite believe I am still hanging in there? I am in no rush. DS said yesterday when Dad dropped him off can you both just get back together please? Silence.

I am terrified that all of how he has behaved is because he is simply not interested in me and he wants to go off and chase other women. He may even have another woman which is why he wanted to keep the house on, who knows? I guess he is free to do so as we are not living together and not married. He is constantly telling me what he is doing when he is not with me, even though I haven’t been asking.

He has been ambivalent about the relationship for over a year now. First off he complained of lack of SF and when that got better he complained that we did not get on.

As usual I had my morning low and then I got myself out for a run with happy music and then had a shower put some make up on and I am just about to do the school run. Feeling much better even on zero sleep lol.

Thank you all for reading and supporting me the crazy obsessive poster.

My suggestion for how you progress through the issues is designed to help you take control, so that you are not left wondering what he wants and whether he has other plans.

Suppose that he has indeed finished with the relationship. Suppose he really does feel better off without (the name he called you to your mother). Suppose he has another woman and that's why he has kept his own house. Suppose he hasn't got a woman, but feels happy living alone, drinking, and not living with someone with whom he feels he does not get on.

When you talk to him, you will find out how he feels now. His answer will end that part of your uncertainty. If he feels reluctant to build a new relationship, you ask him to consider whether he could have a good relationship with you and the children, or whether he'd rather end things now. I don't think he needs to give you a definitive answer that day; you could keep the conversation open for several days while he thinks about the future - and, we hope, corresponds with Dr Harley.

If he is prepared to consider a relationship - however reluctantly - you show him that you have a plan that will enable you to end the bad habits from the past and start anew. That plan requires as its first step that he stops drinking there and then, for good, and that he lets you help him accomplish this. You tell him that you've enlisted the help of an expert in both alcohol addiction and marriage - Dr Harley - and that he is waiting to hear from BF.

I imagine that this conversation will shake him up a lot. I don't get the sense that you've ever before insisted that he stops drinking, for example. I can't imagine that he will take to that idea at all well. I can imagine that he'll be quite upset, and quite belligerent. You need to ask him to calm down and listen, and to stop swearing, or insulting you, or whatever else he does. If he won't stop and gets loud and angry, you need to end the "date".

But the point is, you need to take control and stop agonising about why he hasn't done something, or said something, or about what he is really feeling.

We always ask people this but your thread is so long I can't remember: have you asked your GP for any help with stress? Anti-depressants would make a big difference to your anxiety and sleeplessness. I know that you badly need relief from those things.

Thank you for your support and time Sugar Cane.

I have no idea how it will go tomorrow. I can just do my best. I need to have a plan either way and now feel comfortable with taking control.

BF has been texting me lots, mainly about the kids but other stuff too. I received a text from him at 1am this morning, I think he may have been drinking.

I get a call from sister this morning, say that she is very worried as there is a video on social media thats concerning. When I tried to find out what social media site and who, she was just being very dramatic and saying I don't know but it is just out there and then said for god sakes be a mother CoolB! I was really taken aback when she said that and I am so upset and hurt she would say that and then put the phone down on her. She left me a nasty voice message saying how I didn't have the courage to answer her phone call and that she was letting me know as she thought I should know as I was the mother and she found it very worrying, and that she had been sounding board for me and not anymore and good luck with everything! Wow. I should never have gone to my family for support, I did it once before and it was thrown back in my face. Yes she had a point, but if she was so concerned she would have known what site and who posted it!! I was so panicked!

Anyway I spoke to BF and he had posted the video and made some [censored] and bull story how it was something to do with his new iphone but essentially the video was wrong and took it straight off. He was obviously drinking and got finger happy on fb. I have come off his fb so don't see anything.

It was a video of him and the kids jumping in the pool from the back showing the 2 kids bottoms.





I did go and get some anti Ds from the DRs before but they made my mouth so dry after 3 months taking them I stopped them. I am feeling much better this week, so I am going to give it another week and see how I feel, but I am sleeping now and working and the kids are in school so able to look after myself better.

Thanks all.

He is incapable of making good decisions when he has been drinking - as in anybody, but most of us control our drinking. His is regularly out of control. The first and most important decision he needs to make is to stop drinking for good.

If, tomorrow, he says that he is not interested in your plans and doesn't want to rebuild the relationship, you should tell him that he needs to stop drinking because you will not let the kids stay in his care at times when he is likely to drink (e.g. evenings). Tell him you will involve the family court if there are any more stupid decisions involving your kids.

I hope you won't have to say that, and that he'll agree to contact Dr Harley.

Hi Sugar Cane

I must agree I am now getting concerned about him
having the children overnight now. I am getting increasingly concerned his drinking is out of hand.

He made lies up about last night to cover his drinking and some ridiculous story about his phone and how they auto loaded the videos onto fb. He doesn’t even remember uploading the video when I spoke to him this morning. He looked full of shame today when he spent some time at the house picking up DS for football.

When he dropped DS off I was so busy sorting the kids out that I forgot to mention plans for lunch tomorrow. Then BF turned round and said would you still like to meet for lunch tomorrow? This is a good sign (unless he plans to do a formal dumping ofcourse). LOL.

Wish me luck peeps, I am going to need it.

You don't need luck; you've got brains, and you've got a plan. You need to bring together all your tiger mother instincts, screw up your courage and do this for your children.

I've absolutely no doubt that you'll do this.

Afternoon All,

So I went on the lunch with BF today. We met at a lovely restaurant down on the seafront - my first restaurant trip since Covid. He was there already waiting for me, and came over and opened the car door for me and said you look lovely.

We spent the first hour just catching up talking about work, the kids and what we have been up to. Then there was a gap in the conversation and I said so BF what about us then? He smiled and laughed a little but said straight away, we can't give up can we CoolB? I said no we cant, and that I would love to have a happy committed future with you, do you want the same and he said yes.

Then I said what Dr Harley told to me to say on the radio show. That I felt the 12 weeks we had spent together since lockdown had been great and that he had stopped having angry outbursts, that he had gone to great lengths to prove there was no one else and we hadn't argued once. That I was really pleased about this (DR Harley said to make a big deal about meeting 2 terms of the Plan B Letter). Then I said but there was only one thing that was a problem to me and that was his drinking, I then explained my concern for his own health, the impact that this has on the relationship, and how it was affect the children. He didn't get mad at all and looked quite sheepish, he didn't disagree with anything I said and he just nodded in agreement. I said to him that I want to have a sober relationship with him and the drinking has to stop now. I told him that I would give up drinking with him and would be there to support him through it. At this point he insisted how healthy he is (fitness and food) and that he is not alchoholic. I said I am not a professional but all I know is that it needs to stop for your own good, otherwise he would need some help.

He said he is miserable in the house, and that he spends most of his time there reading his books. He said there is nothing else that matters appart from you and the kids and I am not going anywhere. That his only concern was that it all goes wrong in a years time and we have to go through it all again so he wants to make sure we are right.

He did at one point, start stroking my face and my eyes welled up sorry couldn't help it. He said don't get emotional!

The only thing he said a flat out no to was speaking to Dr Harley. I tried to sell it to him but he wasn't having any of it. He said he would go and sit in a room and talk to someone, and that he had initiated counselling twice before. I guess 2 out of the three isn't bad. He also said that we need to talk things out more, cant we do more of that CoolB?

I also raised about when he went cold / silent on me a few weeks ago, and explained how tough I found this, and that treatment has to stop. That if he needs to go into his man cave he needs to communicate this. Then he said I shouldn't need some space from us "Cool B'. This part worries me and not sure how to handle this either as it feels like rejection.

I told him that if he stops drinking we can spend time as a couple and time as a family. We have to spend more one to one time if we are going to build up the relationship.

Now Dr Harley did advise on his radio show that if he stops drinking immediately that we spend time together dating. I may write to him to clarify? Dr Harley did say contact him if there was progression. Whereas Sugar Cane advises to waiting until he stops drinking before meeting up.

I know you might not think it, but communicating all that to him is a big leap for me.

BFs ambivalence about the relationship is causing me worry.

The fact that when everything was going well a few weeks ago and then he went cold and avoided me.

He openly admitted it at the lunch yesterday when I mentioned it, that he shouldn’t need space in a relationship. Then he is openly questioning his feelings for me.

I am sticking to the plan, but sometimes feel like saying I want to be with someone who is sure about me? Maybe have some time on your own to figure this out.

I just don’t feel positive about discussions yesterday, maybe it’s my negative thinking.

Plan B was so effective, I had never seen him make so much effort with me when we reconciled. Now I feel like I have been a but desperate and pushy.

Well done on saying all you needed to say, especially the stuff that Dr Harley coached you on. I think you did a fantastic job. I don't think you missed out anything. And the results were very good - he didn't reject your offer to rebuild, and he recognises that his drinking is harmful. You need to press on with getting him to prove every day that he has stopped.

Contact Dr Harley and ask him what to do. I don't know whether he would agree to writing to BF to start things off. Dr Harley will know about the ethics of contacting someone who did not request contact, who has not given his email address. Maybe Dr Harley can write to him via you - writing to both of you with the outlines of a plan. (Stop drinking, provide accountability, go to rehab if this fails, date, etc.) Does BF know that he doesn't needs to actually talk to Dr H?

Since he wants to talk things out with you, use that as an opportunity to talk about Dr Harley. If you feel that you could raise the subject with BF, tell him how much this would mean to you. Point out that your previous counselling hasn't worked, and point out the difference with Dr Harley's coaching approach. There would be no joint conversations in which you berate each other with accusations about past behaviour. The coaching focuses on identifying and eliminating problems and bad habits in your relationship today, and on building romantic love. It's about changing behaviour, not "counselling" (which usually involves delving into the past, rehashing mistakes and making both of you feel worse).

I don't really know what he meant when he said he shouldn't need any space from "us". A good interpretation would be that he knows his behaviour is lousy and he knows it needs to stop. However, if he is saying that the fact that he needs time alone is a reflection of the grief that you cause him, you could try replying that you're sorry about the behaviour that makes him unhappy - much as I'm sure you would choke on the irony. The thing is that you DO need for him to identify what you do that upsets him, and you need to train yourself out of that behaviour. But he needs to do the same, and he needs to stop the silent treatment, no matter what you've done. He needs to point out the behaviour that has upset him, and you can apologise for it and make amends if needed. You do the same when the situation is reversed. However, silent treatment and contempt are not acceptable, and they are destroying your feelings for him, and making you unhappy. Above all, he needs to make a commitment never to be the cause of your unhappiness (and you do the same for him).

We need to find a way for you to not wilt when he says things that make you worry about his feelings for you. You seem to take in the comment, and suffer a dreadful loss of confidence because of it. If instead you could see a complaint as being valid information that you can use to affect a change, so that you do not destroy love bank units, that would change things enormously.

I'm getting ahead of things here, because this is all something to be learned over the future. You can't just turn it around today. And of course, this also applies to him, and he seems to have a lot more work to do if he is to stop making you unhappy.

Isn't that the same thing, though? We're both saying that when he stops drinking you can begin dating. If that's today, you can begin dating today.

But if we did say different things, you must ALWAYS take Dr Harley's advice. My attempt was only to help you interpret the advice that I understood Dr Harley to have given you, not to give advice of my own. The regular posters on this forum would never seek to undermine anything Dr Harley advises.

You did incredibly well. I think I recognise in your relationship a similar dynamic that affected mine. In my case, it was because H is older (that mattered at lot when I was only 19), better educated (university/not university at that time), brought up in a wonderful family, as opposed to my own chaotic mess that taught me nothing about good relationships, and that fostered no self-confidence. You need to learn to recognise that your needs are valid, and that your likes and dislikes about his behaviour are valid and must be voiced. You need to gain confidence from all the things you've achieved in your life. It's really hard to do, and takes a long time, but you must train yourself not to feel stupid for wanting what you want.

You don't really know what he meant by his statement, and you don't really know why he went cold. You do know, however, that he drinks too much and makes terrible decisions. You should try and let those incidents drop. Stop focusing on them. It doesn't really mater how he felt yesterday or a few weeks ago; what matters is how he will feel about you quite soon.

If you stick to the plan, you WILL be with someone who is sure about you. You will identify and eliminate love busters, and you will help him stop drinking, be a good parent and live in a happy home (in a happy marriage).

This IS negative thinking, and you are very wrong. You were not in the least desperate. It is arguable that you were pushy - and pushy is good! We want you to be pushy. You stood up for what you need from him, and you are giving him the chance to identify what he needs from you. He can be a good husband and father, but only if he stops drinking, and stops his hurtful behaviour (and the two are largely connected).

Thank you so much for your support Sugar Cane. This made me a tad emotional when I read your responses and much more up beat.

I had a wonderful surprise this morning when I dropped the children off at school, BF was waiting outside and we were all really pleased to see him. We did the school drop off together which felt wonderful, he knows how much I love doing pick ups and drop offs together. He said perhaps we can all do tea together after school? This is great as its BFs turn to have the kids this weekend. I will join them for tea and then I have made plans to meet a GF for dinner.

I will try and convince him on Dr Harley. I am sure I can make some progress here.


Yes I agree, I do focus on the negative and need to do some internal work to change this. He did bring one thing up at the lunch which is how it annoyed him I had run out of money mid month and that I was waiting for all my refunds to hit. SO I can make sure this does not happen.



Thank you Sugar Cane. It must be a similar dynamic to me. I had extremely chaotic childhood, I was the youngest of 4, domestic abuse between parents, divorces, step parents, mother mental health problems, multi house moves but I never wanted that to define me. It obviously has some effect, as I crave security, its probably one of my biggest emotional needs. BF is 10 years older had a very settled childhood, was doted on. He is extremely confident, built a successful business ect...Dr Harley advised me that I need to communicate my emotions positively. I am working on this every day.

I was the youngest of 4 but I thought I was the youngest of 3 until I was 28, when I found out about the first born, to my schoolgirl mother.

Physical fights between parents which, as far as I can tell now, were always initiated by my unstable mother.
Ditto


Big time.


Many, including being homeless for a while after the separation and divorce, and being housed in several different emergency local authority places, one of which was condemned and due to be demolished. It had no bathroom and an outside loo on the shared landing.

Ditto about not wanting that to define me. I left school at 17, then went to night classes, then to university aged 20, then professional study. Long before I came across Harley I made a decision to put my horrible upbringing behind me, model my wife-hood and motherhood on the friends that I admire, and to learn better behaviour from wherever I saw it, even if it was from TV programmes. It took years to learn not to shout at the kids and not to be generally just horrible at home, but I practiced it and learned it, and my adult kids both still live at home (London house prices - although my daughter had just bought a flat and is in the process of moving out) and they get on with me really well. I craved security in having a proper home, to the extent that we've been married and lived in the same house for 32 years. I sought security in other ways, too; always having a large amount of money saved, good pensions and so on.

Our past does not have to define us, and we can use the lessons learned to work on being the person we want to be.

8.5 years older, and ditto.

It takes years of practice, and you have already started. Well done.

That is a lot of similarities. So funny about the house - the family house that I live in is where I want the children to grow up, I never want to move! Also money security is so important. I started a paper round at 12, had jobs through to when I left for Uni at 18 and then went onto win a successful graduate position in London. So I am pretty much financially independant. Again, I always knew I seemed a bit different from many friends around me and then probably had a big change in my late 20s / 30s about the person I wanted to be. I looked around for inspiration from friends, did a lot of boundary work (read that Cloud & Townsend book) and definetly became a better person.

BF has been contacting me lots throughout the day. This makes me so happy. We met again after school and did the school run together. We bumped into a few of our friends. We did bump into one girl who had previously made a derogatory comment to BF after she found out about the affair, and they had a huge argument in the street. BF saw her today and made a comment to me, and I did say that the lady had a very bad time with a similar personal experience. I wanted to say - well thats what happens when you have affairs, people look on it poorly. I didn't though as I know I shouldn't mention it.

We went for a drink after school then BF suggested we all go for dinner together. I mentioned that I already had dinner plans, so wouldn't be able to join them. He looked a bit disappointed, then sent me short text complaining about the lack of 'smart clothes' for DS and asking me to drop some more clothes round for the kids on my way out. He use to get very jealous when I went out with my girlfriends, but I didn't know he would ask me to dinner and didn't want to be sat home alone all weekend. Also, I did notice that BF was drinking mineral water at the pub - usually on a friday its a few G&Ts. This is good.

BF and the children are all going out on the boat overnight tomorrow, this makes me so sad as this is my favourite thing to do with my family.

As things are going so well, I am feeling pretty good and enjoying this feeling for awhile.

But you'll go out on the boat one day in the future. In the meantime, enjoy your evening out tonight.

I urge you to keep in contact with Dr Harley about monitoring BF's drinking. It's very good that he drank mineral water today, but how will you know if he drinks over the weekend? I wonder if it's okay for you to make an agreement that you can ask at any time, and he will tell you the truth.

Obviously, he can lie, but I suspect that if he does, you'll catch him out soon. He doesn't seem to be that good at being drunk. I think you should keep in contact with Dr Harley about this, and about dating generally. Also, is it okay to spend family time together? Could you go out on the boat with them all, during the daytime next time? (Overnight seems like a bad idea, because of the sleeping arrangements.)

I just don't have a good feeling at all in the pit of my stomach. All that I seem to focus on is that BF has extended his lease for another 6 months, I know that this is the right thing to do but I just feel that he should have been actively pushing me to come home? He has not done this once. This takes me back to his relationship ambivalence. Also, I have been outside his house a few times now and he seems to have it all very well set up for someone who is just there temporarily. It is so confusing though as he still hasn't changed any of his addresses and still put down my address on our sons school records. He is also still paying for works to be done on our house.

Last night when I saw BF he asked if I wanted to join them all for dinner and I said I already had plans but I should have told him that I was meeting a girlfriend for dinner. He then walked in the house very quickly. I then received the not very nice text complaining about the clothes I left him. I sent a later text saying that I hope you are all having a nice evening with a kiss and I received a note saying the kids were asleep and a thumbs up. Then he left a instagram post on his social media saying;

"Early evening at The Tavern eating fish pie, kids fish & chips, G&T, J2O’s & now on the sofa watching the new Scooby Doo movie ‘Scoob’.. best Friday night in months... what lockdown Scoobs"

This also had a picture of all 3 of them sat in his house. This is the first time he has put a social media post of him in his house. Also a double whammy that this is his best Friday night in months, slightly insulting for all the Fridays we have spent together.

I think this is a reaction to me going out.

I think I should just ignore his post and don’t let him needle me. I have got to sort out that negative thinking!!!

We are all taking the children go karting tomorrow, I am lookIng forward to it.

I also forgot to say that BF told me yesterday that he has paid ten thousand pounds of the mortgage off. He clearly wouldn’t be doing this If he didn’t intend getting back with me.

Them all of having fun without me hurts I am not going to lie. However, I have been fine I had a lovely evening at my girlfriends last night. Today I gave the house a clean and have been gardening all afternoon. This afternoon I am getting my hair done for the first time since lockdown. I am going to have a night in on my own with some nice food and a movie.

Not sure what next steps are?

Rather than trying to read the signs, which, as you say, are contradictory and confusing, just see how things pan out in the next few weeks. You've only just begun this new journey, following your conversation on Wednesday. You never asked for commitment and stated your conditions clearly until then. You did send Plan B letters that stated conditions, but your behaviour was completely at odds with what you wrote in them.

You're starting again now.

It does seem as if he was upset, and his later behaviour seems unnecessarily unpleasant. The "G&T" part was not acceptable.

You could ask whether he was upset after you turned him down, and if so, why (do not assume you know how he felt). It might be worth explaining to him that you had already planned to go out with a girlfriend, and that you do not intend to socialise with men. You could suggest that if you two are to give your relationship another chance, it would be a good idea to agree with each other about meeting up together with the kids, and going out alone with friends. You also need to tell him that he has to never drink again if he wants to be with you.

If you were married and living together, we'd urge you to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). This is based on the understanding that everything you do potentially has an affect on your spouse's feelings for you. If you are to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness, you need to never do things that upset each other. That means that, in your general lifestyle, and when it comes to specific events and issues, you need to agree enthusiastically to actions, separate and joint.

That means that if your spouse is unhappy with you going to pubs or to dinner with friends (without him), you wouldn't do it. You would work on become each other's favourite recreational companions, and you would date each other several times a week, and when all that was done, there probably wouldn't be either the time, or the attraction, for Friday nights out dining out with friends. You would come to an enthusiastic agreement about how to spend Friday nights together. You would also be able to find a way to see your best girlfriend alone, in such a way that it does not make your spouse jealous and does not compete in terms of happiness with spending time with him. (And of course this works both ways.)

You are not married and not living together, but you are working towards those things. And while there is no obligation to practice POJA while dating someone, seeing whether someone is willing to be considerate to your feelings is a good way of weeding out those are are poor prospects for marriage. Now, you are asking him to demonstrate extraordinary care about your feelings by being faithful, giving up drinking, expressing dislikes constructively (no sulking and silent treatment) and so on. You, in turn, need to care if he's upset about your going out to have fun without him, and any other issues he brings up. The one thing you shouldn't do is give him the impression that he can "do one" if he doesn't like you as you are.