My husband and I are both retirees. We get along well. I love him deeply, but I don't feel "in love" with him. We spend tons of time together. We do fun things together. But I would like to be more than just comfortable and to feel passionate again. Our sex life is waning. Help.

Welcome to MB.

Could you tell us more about yourselves, please? How long have you been married? Children? Ages? What kind of "fun things" do you do? Would you say you were ever passionate together?

We have been married for 40 years. Our children are in their late twenties and early thirties.

We camp. We go to shows.

Thank you for replying, but you're not giving us much to go on. You've come asking for help but are giving very little away. Could you tell us more about your lives together? How do you think your husband feels about your marriage?

And could you please answer SsugarCane’s question? Would you say you were ever passionate together?

Are these things "fun" to you? I know that I love them, but do you? Does your husband?

Dr Harley says that if we spend our most exciting recreational time with our spouses, we will be passionate about each other. I am trying to find out why this doesn't this work for you. How much time per week do you spend alone doing these things?

What effect does "going to shows" have on your conversation and affection afterwards? Usually, during a show the attention is on the show rather than each other, but the show can provide an opportunity for intimate conversation afterwards.

I am glad you came to marriage builders. If you have spent much time on this website, you know that while many people have theories about marriage, Doctor Harley has been actually been successful in helping people.

I found marriage builders in 2002. Just like you, I was looking to make my marriage more passionate and improve the relationship with my spouse. I can tell you that for us, it worked very well.

At this point in time, my wife and I are also retired. We have just finished going back through the Marriage Builders materials. It seems to help to go through it again every four or five years.

If you are OK answering a few questions, we can find a starting place to give advice.

You don't have to reply to anything you are uncomfortable talking about.

First, tell us your cultural background. That is, your country of origin and heritage. (For both of you.) It would also be nice to know which country you live in, and what general area of the country you reside in. If you have recently moved, where did you spend most of your adult lives?

Second, does religion play a big part in your life?
Do you and your spouse share the same belief system?

Background as to why these things were asked -
People of different cultures sometimes look at the marriage relationship differently. Having basic background information on someone can help us to tailor what we say so it is easier to understand, and more helpful. There will not be large differences, but every little bit helps.
Also, I have a christian background, and sometimes use historical religious stories to illustrate a point. I won't do that if It is not helpful to you. I am not trying to be judgmental, just want to make sure that I don't offend in any way, and that the suggestions I make will actually be useful to you based on your background.

Third, Are you widely read on the Marriage Builder's website, and do you understand Dr Harley's materials?

Fourth, Is your spouse onboard with this... That is, do they also want to improve the marriage? Or are you hoping to learn what is needed and then share with them and hope they will work with you on it?

Fifth, approximately how long have you been married, and have you had any recent problems in your marriage.... affairs, death of a close family member, or any emotionally stressful events or traumatic changes in either of your lives?

Again, I can tell you that the materials you find on this website can really help your marriage, If both will learn the materials and then put them into practice.
Look forward to hearing back from you.
SS

PS, I see that as I was writing this, you have received some other posts, Just ignore things you've already talked about.

Hello. I am sorry but I have not been able to get into the forum. It keeps giving me Gateway error when I try. Today, I finally switched browsers.

I would say we were passionate when we were first married. Off and on since. Our daughter recently got engaged and the way the two of them look at each other made me feel a bit jealous I suppose. I would say that since Covid shut the world down and he is all I have that is when it truly waned.

My husband was talking last night about what a wonderful marriage we have and in many ways he is correct. He is a wonderful guy.

I am just feeling lost, lonely and adrift. I don't have a purpose anymore. I miss my friends and I miss my job.

What do we do. When we are home (which isn't often), we take 3-5 miles walks together every morning. (Takes an hour and a half to two and a half hours depending on if we walk a rural road near our house or go to a walking trail.) We eat all of our meals together. He will work on outside projects. I work on inside chores. Once a week or so we will go somewhere we haven't been before in the area: try a new restaurant, see a fun show, go to a museum, etc. Every night we do a marriage devotion together.

Our children live all over the country. We take our RV out for a month at a time or so. A week might be spent in the area where our child lives, but the rest is exploring an area we haven't been. Our son is a musical theater performer and we often go to see whatever show he might be in. We hike, which I do like.

We serve overseas together for a month at a time. I do enjoy that and feel useful there. I have things more things to talk to him about.

But I miss teaching. I miss leading ladies' Bible study. I miss seeing my friends and having a sense of community. I feel so untethered. My husband adores me and could spend 24/7 with me and no one else and be perfectly happy. I feel like when I was teaching and had something of my own, I had more to give him. Not sure if that makes sense.

I have the gateway error every time I log in and try to get on the forum. Have tried computer, tablet, phone, 3 or 4 different browsers from each platform. I wish they would fix it because I think it is the reason so few people post these days. Glad you made it back.
After I login, I cannot get here by clicking on FORUM, I have to click on my user name, then on the number of posts I have made which brings up my post history, then on my last post which brings me here. Anyway, sorry you are having problems, but glad you made it back.

Your user name "comfortable shoe" describes your marriage. Well, not just your marriage, it is your whole life at this point in time.

The title of this thread " comfortable to exciting" is your goal. This is not a small thing for you. It is causing so much hurt inside that you worry or that you wonder if your life will ever feel right again.

I gather that your husband does not know your feelings. He is happy and thinks all is well. Your relationship is good, but not close enough that you can talk to him about this. That is an indicator. I believe you feel that if you had the right kind of marriage your H would come to you and say "there is something in our relationship that doesn't feel quite right, how can I help you with this?"

Sugar Cane and Brainhurts are like medical specialists. They want to define the problem, operate and have the patient be healed. They are very efficient and quite good at this. The problem comes when the patient cannot give a good description of symptoms. I believe there is more going on here than you realize.

It is hard to know what to say next, because
this is kind of complicated. Maybe we can go in this direction...

It is often good to discuss background information. One of the reasons we ask questions, Is so that we can have a better overall view of what the underlying problems are.

So, let's do a little review of what we think we know about you from what you have said so far.

You had a hard time coming here. You are in what many people would consider to be an ideal situation. You are trying very hard not to complain, however you still have a big hole in your psych, and you don't know what to do about it. I think you feel a little guilty about the feelings you are having, but they are still there, you ARE having them. They are not going away.
If my wife and I were to go to dinner tonight with the two of you, you would talk, and laugh, and it would look like everything is wonderful. But you would have this hurt deep down inside that no one knows about.

For every journey there must be a starting place. You have pretty much answered all of my questions, so I think we have enough information to begin. There is so much to talk about, your marriage, your life in general, how to get from where you are to where you want to be... all of that.
But let's start with this.

From Luke chapter 12
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

So sparrows are not worth much to men, but God knows every one of them. AND YOU ARE SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. MUCH, MUCH MORE.
My belief is that God already has a plan for your happiness that will help you through this hard time in your life.

Do you believe this?
This is not a rhetorical question, I would like an answer. Not just a yes or no answer, I want you to explain.

I would guess you have been praying about these feelings you are having. Do you feel like you are getting through, and that you will get help?

I am asking these questions more for you, than for me. For us to have hope and faith, we need to know we will get help.

Still Seeking thinks for a few minutes...
This is probably enough for now.

Take some time to read this and think on it before you reply. Use logic to understand what is happening in your life, but also examine your feelings and try to understand them, then come back and tell us what you have learned so far. There are no right or wrong answers here, you don't have to be afraid to share your feelings. Part of this is to help you understand your feelings and your husband's feelings. The things that are in your heart. OK?

SS

You had a hard time coming here. You are in what many people would consider to be an ideal situation. You are trying very hard not to complain, however you still have a big hole in your psych, and you don't know what to do about it. I think you feel a little guilty about the feelings you are having, but they are still there, you ARE having them. They are not going away.
If my wife and I were to go to dinner tonight with the two of you, you would talk, and laugh, and it would look like everything is wonderful. But you would have this hurt deep down inside that no one knows about.

Wow, yes this is me exactly.

Now, do I feel like I am important to God. Yes, but the chief goal of man (or woman) is to glorify God, not to be happy.

Feelings tell us a story, but we should not act on our feelings. I do the right thing regardless of how I feel about it.

But yes, God loves me and cares for me. He wants my good and to give me hope.

Do you have depression?

Why can’t you do things with your friends?

I don't know. I don't think so.

Because I realized just how activity based my friendships were. I am generally only home for a week or two at a time. They are working and most of them still have children at home and they are going to club soccer or dance practices or end of the year programs, etc. That or they are like us empty nesters who are traveling to take care of a parent or to go see a grandchild or something.

If we do get together, It is awkward because we have separate lives now. But mostly, we cannot seem to find time that fits for us to get together. I am gone. They are gone or they are working or at some kid event. I don't have the teaching job where I see them everyday or the kid activity where I see them all the time. I have realized that most of my friendships have ended whenever the activity has ended that I am doing with them.

I have been reading the articles on the website. I definitely am not good at emotional honesty that is for sure.

That and I don't know what I want. My husband would move heaven and earth for me if I knew what that was, but I do not. I do not know what to tell him to do that he isn't doing. He asks me nearly every day what he can do for me. I tell him nothing.

My husband and I just filled out the recreational inventory. Here is what we found:

Acting: Me 3 Him -3
Bible Study Me3 Him 3
Bowling 2, 2
Camping 3, 3
Church Services 3, 3
Concerts 3, 3
Dancing 3, -3
Fishing 2, 3
Football 2, 2
Gardening -3, 3
Hiking 3, 3
Movies 2, 2
Museums 3, 3
Photography 3, 3
Plays 3, 2
Poetry 3, -3
Skeet shooting -3, 3
Sightseeing 3, 3
Singing 3, 3

It sounds like you have the time together part of this covered pretty well. What remains is that your needs are not being met, or there are love busters going on.

At one point I said this seemed complicated. You HAVE been through life changing emotional trauma. You retired from teaching, and that was/is part of who you are. You are seeing continental drift in your marriage and realizing you want the passion back. We don't like to think these things affect us much, but they can and do.

So... you need to know what emotional needs were being met by activities with friends, and by your vocation. Then your H needs to find a way to meet them for you.

I don't think your situation is terminal. I see you are already sharing things from this site with your H. This is a good thing.

It does not appear from what you have told us so far that there are major love busters in your marriage.

That leaves unmet needs.

I worry that when you read this you will reject it outright.

Having studied Dr Harleys materials for over 20 years, I am sure he is correct about how to bring passion back to a marriage. If the two of you are spending time together, and there are no love busters, it has to be unmet needs.

Have you studied emotional needs yet?
Do you understand what love busters are at this point in time?

Should I stop and let you catch up on your reading?

SS

I could comment on other things you have written, but I think it best to let you read and process everything up to this point. Wanted you to know I am reading your posts.
SS

Ok, so I have been reading about love busters. My husband is very chill, so no angry outbursts in the history of our marriage. In fact, we have had very, very few conflicts in the history of our marriage. We get along very well. Neither one of us make selfish demands or are ever disrespectful to each other. I would say we are both very independent, but I don't think we have independent behaviors that hurt one another. My husband is an open book, but I am not. So dishonesty is a problem I have, not that he has. Annoying habits. I know I have a tone of voice that is like fingernails on a chalkboard to him. It typically happens when I am very tired or very stressed. He lets me know. I apologize. It happens maybe once a quarter or something.

I don't know that this is a love buster exactly. But he is battling a chronic health condition that is causing him a lot of pain. I miss my fun man. Yes, he/we see a doctor. He is getting treated. It is what it is as you grow older I suppose. I feel guilty for missing the energy he used to have.

I laughed when I read your recreational inventory.
This is what I laughed about -
Dancing me 3 H -3
When I met my wife she was on the college ballroom dance team. I thought I would get "points" by taking her to a dance. We walked out on the dance floor, and the first number started. I think we danced for less than sixty seconds, and she stopped. Just stop right in the middle of the floor with everyone dancing around us. She said you don't have to try and dance, and she walked me back over to the side. She told me that I was not a very good dancer. She also told me that she still liked me, and that being a good dancer was not a requirement for being together. This year is forty seven years for us.

I found marriage builders in 2002. I guess our marriage was okay, but like you, I wanted it to be much better than that. The passion kind of melted away over the years. Our sex life was going down hill. When I found the marriage builders website I could not believe how good the material was. I could not believe Dr Harley made it possible for us to print much of it for free, right off the website.

Unlike you, I had a problem with love busters. Angry outbursts, and distrespectful judgments.

I purchased two of Dr Harleys books. "His needs Her needs", And "Love Busters". Both were valuable in getting our marriage back on track. I'm guessing you would not need "Love Busters" near as much as we needed it.

It took us two years to get our marriage to the point where I was happy. After about five years I think it was fabulous. I think it took so long because she needed to learn to trust me again. There was no affair or anything like that, but no one likes to live with someone who is angry all the time.

Right now we are going through the materials again, as I have tended to slip back into bad habits over the years. Not nearly as bad as I was in the beginning, but even an occasional angry out burst is hurtful. After about three months I think we are back to fabulous.

You are a very good study. You are picking up on these materials very well. We need to figure out
how to get you to be honest with your husband, so he can give you more of what you need in your marriage. As soon as you read this last sentence, you will say in your mind "But he already does so well. "Or words to that effect. I don't think you need to go talk to him right now after you read this, but we have to work towards that. Let's help you understand the concepts and maybe give you some tools to help you work with your husband

One of the reasons I said your case seemed complicated, (and there are more than one reason) Is that I don't think you understand all of the emotional needs you are missing.

I can guess at some based on the things you have already told us, but I don't think it's time for me to talk about that yet. I think you need a good understanding of emotional needs first. Please do not reject the concept of emotional needs. Let me say this again... please do not reject the concept of emotional needs. We may need to talk about it some more. I welcome your comments. I enjoy working with you because you are honest. That makes it so much easier for you to succeed.

Continue to work on your recreational inventory. You might as well be doing things you BOTH like, and enjoy.

There are also videos available on the marriage builders website, and on youtube if you search under "marriage builders". I had to include quotes when I searched on youtube, because when I did not, it came up with too much extraneous material. The videos on his needs, her needs, and love busters are a good way to get basic understanding in a short time.

There are some drawbacks to the way we do this here. Sometimes we have things on our mind that we forget between posts. And then we have to wait... sometimes a long time to get a reply. I can tell that you want so badly for this to work for the two of you. I tell you again that it worked really well for us.

If if if the two of you, and my wife and I were able to sit down together and discuss these things, I think in a couple of hours both you and your husband would understand the concepts and know what you needed to do. It's probably not very likely, so we'll just work the best with the media we have.

Once again I say, I don't think it will take you as long as it took us. Please feel free to talk about things you read and give your point of view. Everything you say is valuable in helping us understand how to help you.

SS

LOL, you two do remind me of us. I took dance for over 15 years and so when we were dating we tried. But his rhythm was off and he couldn't lead. (I have danced with other partners. I am capable of following, but they have to be a strong leader.) Every time we have ever tried to dance together we have argued, so we decided never to dance together again for the sake of our marriage. LOL.

I will be reading about the emotional needs this afternoon and tonight. My husband has often asked me what he can do to make our marriage better, but I have no answer. I don't know what I want. I see there are some questionnaires and lots of articles. So I will start reading and reply here tomorrow.

Thanks for the help!

Ok, I have been reading and watching videos about emotional needs.

I am not quite sure how to fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. A lot of it depends.
Affection:
How often? I don’t know. How do I feel when I get it and don’t.. I don’t know. I am fine without hugs or anything sometimes and sometimes not. And many times he reaches for my hand and I have to make myself take it. I was that way with my kids as well. Sometimes I just really didn’t want to be touched.
But other times, if I am feeling sad or I don’t know why, then I will just go to him and get a hug. He is always happy to give one to me.

Sexual Fulfillment
This one is a little easier. I would be thrilled if we made love twice a week. When we don’t, I feel like maybe he doesn’t love me or it just reinforces to me how unattractive I am now. I was at least reasonably attractive as a young person. Now I am just a shapeless blob.

Intimate Conversation
Again, this depends on what I am in the mood for. And many times we talk a lot about projects we need to do. I hear all about a big legal issue we are currently undergoing. The trips we are planning. If it were lighthearted and fun. If I had something to talk about. Maybe I would like talking more. I just don’t know what to say
But I seem to have lost the ability. I don’t talk much to the kids either. They call dad. I just don’t have much to say. I led a women’s retreat several months ago and I felt like an outsider. I had no trouble teaching, but talking one on one. I listened a lot, but didn’t contribute anything. Mission trips. Same thing. I listen to suffering people, hug and pray with them. I can easily get everyone to talk about themselves.

Recreational Companionship
I enjoy this and think we do this rather well.

Honesty and Openness
I guess I really don’t care about this one. Sort of. A few people I know have turned out to be not what they appeared. I wish I never found out. I would rather just be happy, think the best of people. I want things to be safe and comfortable. I do not want to rock the boat ever. It isn’t worth it. I learned a long time ago in childhood how dangerous it can be to poke the bear. Nope.

Don’t care about:
Physical attractiveness- Though my husband is very, very attractive. But character counts more.
Financial support- I can do it myself if I need to. Not a big deal.
Domestic Support- He helps out and is actually a much better housekeeper than I am. He was also a much better parent when the kids were living at home as well.
Family commitment- That has always been huge to my husband. Still is. I am probably more friend focused.

Need for Admiration- Yes, this is a high need and my husband does it well. He tells me thank you and how well I do something all the time.

I am not sure how to rank my needs. Maybe
1. Sex
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Admiration


So perhaps the first step would be to talk to him about having sex more. Is that right?

I also read and somewhat resonated with the story of Jason and Nora, at least when we had children. We didn't have anyone nearby and didn't know anyone here at first.

I don't know that we need to schedule more time. However, we need to make at least 15 hours the most enjoyable part of the week for both of us.

We already spend 2 hours or so every morning exercising together which Dr. Harley seems to recommend in all of his examples. But maybe I need to work on improving my conversation during that time.

Yes, a lot of it depends. A lot of it even depends on what day it is, and how you are feeling that day. It depends upon what events are happening in your life at that point in time. I decided to become familiar with each emotional need and try to meet all of them for my wife. Of course I concentrate on the top three, but I touch on all of them in the course of a week. I usually don't say things like this to most of the people that I talk to you on Marriage Builders. It's nearly always best to keep things simple. I just have the feeling that more information will benefit you.
My W and I have been married for 47 years. If I watch her carefully, I can usually figure out what she needs as we go along. When both partners in a marriage understand emotional needs, how to avoid love busters, and how to spend quality time together, they can adjust as they go along to have a really wonderful marriage.

One of the things I will not do, is tell you how to do things, or exactly what to do. I will try to give you information, so you can make good choices about how to improve your marriage. I will also give you my opinion, but it's always expected that you'll do what you think is best.

As you become familiar with the information on this website, you will have to figure out how to include your husband in your marriage improvement journey.
More on this part later.

Weekends are often slow, especially holiday weekends. I will come back in a day or two with more comments. You gave a lot of valuable information about your feelings on emotional needs. I'm thinking about what you wrote.

Well, perhaps a little more now, but in a new post.
SS

It is interesting, that my wife also feels she is just a shapeless blob. It took me way too long to figure this one out. I have always felt like she is the most beautiful women on the earth. Still is. As long as we are married she always will be. So I started telling her how I feel. This is more than SF. (Sexual Fulfillment is often abrieveated "SF" on the forums to make things easier.)
When i tell her how i feel It's part SF.
It's non physical affection.
It's intimate conversation.
Honesty and openness.
And it's admiration.
My W says I don't have to tell her so often, but I keep doing it. I tell her she's sexy, then I show her I mean it. I tell her she's wonderful. I tell her she's beautiful. I tell her she's gorgeous. I say that when I'm with her it's magical. Then I go all out to make her feel the same magic that I feel. After you work the Marriage Builders program for a while you realize it's a mindset, not just some things that you do.
I turn 69 this year. She turns 67. We are usually both good for 1 to 2 times a week.
Romantic love is magical. Being in love is so sweet. I tell her that my whole life is better because I'm with her. It really is.

I know from your opening statement at the beginning of your thread that you want a marriage that feels magical. I think I said it took us a couple of years. That time was spent going from "let's see, what do I have to do for her today," to "hey good lookin, how can I help you in the kitchen?" Work is not so much work when you are spending time with the person who makes you feel the magic.

I asked my W if she wanted to read all of this thread. She said "I don't really want to read it right now." I just showed her what you said about the two of you and dancing. She just laughed.

Let's hit one or two more things, and I'll let you go. There is no way I can cover all of my thoughts today. I hope this doesn't bore you. We can condense if you want to, but I confess I am often wordy.


This is mostly refering to the relationship between Husband and Wife. When your H finds out how you feel about improving your marriage, I bet he will do everything in his power to help you feel the magic. If he had known last year how you felt, you might be a lot happier now.
Yes?
No?
What do you think?

I agree that it would not be a good thing to know everything about everyone. As far as not rocking the boat... Note that Dr Harley doesn't say that we need to be blunt or harsh. If a man's wife asks him "do you think I look good in this dress." He has choices how he can reply.

"That dress makes you look fat."
"I think you look really good in the blue flowered one."

Both statements may be honest. I don't think the second statement rocks the boat at all. I believe only a very foolish man would use the first.

When my W tries a new recipe, I am honest when she asks me how I like it. If don't like it, but say I do, she will make it again.
Not good.
Answers have to be tactful. "I liked the one you made two weeks ago better than this one. If I had my choice, that one would be my first pick."

Once during lovemaking I asked my W if what we were doing was feeling good to her. She said " I like everything you do."
What she said worried me a little bit. We discussed it. I told her we needed to be honest so that we could do more of what she really liked, and less of things that were only just OK or even hurt a little. The next time she said "well, that is a little uncomfortable."
In order to help our spouse, we have to know what they need help with. Honesty means giving them the information they need to do that.

Communication in marriage is really important. Some peope might have a difficult time doing the asking. Are you OK with it?
Any reservations?

I love your description of magical, and yes, that is what I want.

He might have to lie to say all the things you do of your wife, though. He told me physical attractiveness was important to him when we first married. At that point I was a size 0/2. Both of his parents were morbidly obese and he is so very sensitive about weight. He is underweight actually. All of the older ladies at church are always coming up and telling me I need to feed him. ):

For most of our marriage after children, I was a 6/8. I took medicine for depression a decade ago and gained 40 pounds. Even though I only took the meds for a year, I have never been able to lose the weight. Now I am size 14/16.

So, I guess, I just don't know that he would be telling the truth to say I am sexy.

So, yeah it is a little/ a lot uncomfortable to ask. I would probably just flirt and initiate. It is just he is in so much pain sometimes now, I hesitate. And no, if it is just about me and not the two of us BOTH coming together, it isn't SF. Not to me. Asking him just to give me pleasure sounds horrible. I need to know that I drive him nuts. (in a good way (: )

But if I want to have the marriage I want, I need to ask. Not today because it is his holiday. But tomorrow, I will begin to bring it up in conversation, maybe on our walk. Would that be a good time?

So, I just read Dr. Harley's articles on physical attractiveness... I need to lose the weight... I do not know that I can. I don't know if I am willing to do what it takes.

My wife is 5'4", I am 5'11".
I am overweight... at about 200 lbs. My wife weighs just a little more than I do. When we married, I was at 165 lbs, she was at 107. Back then she ate one small meal a day. She looked great, and because she was on the ballroom dance team, she was in very good condition. They did competitions and exibitions all over the western US, and she could really dance because she was so fit. After we married, she was a runner. She did a marathon just show us she could. Child birth was hard on her, and she was also on meds for depression for some years. It is difficult for her to be as heavy as she is now... especially with her earlier history. She has tried lots of ways to loose weight, none of them have really worked long term. She does not eat that much now, but still, even the Doctors don't seem to be able to help her.
We exercise 4 days a week, for about an hour and a half each day. Sometimes more, seldom less. She swims for two of those days because it's easier on her knees.

So, based on the sizes you mentioned, you are quite a bit lighter than she is. The reason she is the most beautiful women in the world is because she is MY women. (As I am her man.)

I would guess that your husband thinks the same way about you, that I think about my wife. The world is trying to get us all to think the same about beauty, or the lack of it. My belief is that the standards of the world are kind of fake.

We still don't know which emotional needs are most important to your H. Before you worry too much about this, we need him to understand emotional needs, and decide what is most important to him AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I am sure your H would like it if you lost weight, however it sounds like he is really in love with you right now anyway. This is another illustration of why communication in marriage is so important. You need to know how he feels about this.

Both my W and I have lost some weight in the last year. I was at nearly 250 lbs, and have about 30 more to go. Would love for my W to loose a lot more just so she could feel better, but I love her either way.


If while walking you could talk without distraction then it would probably work well. You would know better than we would.

Many people have come to MB (Marriage Builders) over the years and been converted to the material here, and then have to talk to their spouse and convince them read the materials to help improve their marriage. We are one of those couples. I often say to my W, "we need to talk." I think it scared her the first few times, but now she knows I just want to make improvements in our relationship.

You may want to introduce it to him as you did to us.


Do you think it would be effective to bring up the way they were looking at each other and tell your H that you want that back for your own marriage? He may surprise you and tell you he already feels that way about you. Be prepared for that. Not kidding.

Some people who have come here have just showed their spouse their posts here on MB, which in your case would probably explain your feelings well and make it easy for him to understand. Your call, as always. You are/were a teacher, and I suspect you are better than most of us at explaining things.

So... my W is in the kitchen making frosting for my favorite chocolate cake for Father's day. I come up behind her and kiss her neck. I say "if you weren't so beautiful and sexy I would leave you alone, but you are beautiful, and you are sexy, and I can't help it. She smiles, and turns around and kisses me. I kiss her back. I tell her "thank you for marrying me, you make my life better." She says "how do you expect me to get anything done." Then she kisses me again. I steal a taste of frosting, and leave the kitchen. And no, I won't lose any weight today. ;-)

Ah, so much to comment on, and so little time. I hope that it feels like you are making progress. On this end it looks like you are.
SS

Another PS...
I have no idea what the medical problem is that is causing your H to suffer with a lot of pain. I did not touch on it in my discussion but you know you need to keep it in mind as you go forward. Most people who get to my age are no stranger to pain, so I feel for both of you. Prayers in his (and your) behalf.

Thanks Still Seeking. When we married, he was 6 foot and 165 and I was 5'4'' and 115 soaking wet, more like 110. After kids I kept a pretty consistent 130 until on the anti-depressants. At my heaviest, I was 170. Now am 165. He is 140. But you are right, who knows what he truly thinks though he has said a few things that give me a clue.

Yesterday was the absolute best day. We went to church and laughed and laughed during Sunday School. I helped lead the singing in worship, and it just felt so good to focus on God instead of myself. Sermon was good. One of the older ladies came up to me again and asked if my husband was ok as he looked so thin and pale. Are you feeding him? Sigh.

After church, we talked about what happened that morning and laughed a lot. Then we had SF and you couldn't wipe the grin off my face for the rest of the day. I was in such a great mood.

So funny. I felt so good yesterday, but slept like crap last night. Actually, I haven't been sleeping well for weeks. So I woke up hungover and angry this morning. (What I think hungover would feel like. I don't drink.) Yesterday will provide a springboard to talk about having more SF. It will be easy to say, how much I enjoyed it and how much fun it was yesterday and let's have more fun.

That said, with his health issue, I know he doesn't always feel great. He doesn't complain. I can just tell when he really hurts and if I ask him, he will admit it. That is why I tend to let him take the lead in SF. Honestly, if I felt the way he did I wouldn't want to. He pushes himself to work at stuff around the house because he says it helps him not to think about the pain. It is what it is I suppose.

We had a very good conversation about SF on our walk. Nice give and take on both sides. A very enjoyable conversation.

Good for you!

Still seeking officially retired two years ago but they occasionally call me in to work on special projects. Will be working the next 2 or 3 days. I may not reply in a timely manner. Depends on how I feel in the evenings.

So glad you are making progress. So happy for you.
SS

I am glad you were able to communicate your feelings to your husband.
Do you consider this to be a relationship breakthrough?
That is, will this success make it easier to talk more about your marriage as you go along?

Are you as happy now ( when you read this) as you were during and just after the conversation with him?

Would like to visit with you some more about emotional needs, but it will be a few days before I'll be able to post.

Do you already know what you want to work on next, or should we help with suggestions?

Do you have any questions about things you are reading?

Do you wish Still Seeking would stop asking questions?

Haha
I'll let you go for now.
SS

Breakthrough. I don't know. I would say we had a major breakthrough about ten years ago when I was going through my depression. I was basically playing happy wife on the outside and about ready to jump off a cliff on the inside. Now he knows much, much, much more about what I am thinking and feeling. Is it as much as this board would like, probably not, but still. For me, much better. No one else knows me like he does. Well, that has really always been true. Even when he didn't know as much as he does now, he knew so much more than anyone else. I am pretty much a performer.

Am I as happy now? Probably not. So, I kind of feel like if 100 is a full love bank, we kind of hover around 85 most of the time. It is a B. Comfortable, loving. On Sunday, I was at 120. Yesterday, maybe 105. Today, maybe 95. SF always makes me silly giddy. It just does. It gives me energy and makes me feel powerful.

Sure I would love suggestions. And no questions are great. Thank you for helping. I will take any posters' help.

So time isn't the issue. We just need to make it more enjoyable. I have been reading the conversation articles. We need to make our conversations more enjoyable.

But I feel like part of my issues come into play here. We have plenty to talk about. Some not so fun: legal issue, getting mice out of the rv, health issues, etc. Issues with the nonprofit we run.

His favorite topics of conversation: the latest RV modification or any of the updates. He always has multiple projects going on and loves to describe how he does them.

My favorite topics... I do not know. I no longer have what student is doing what to talk about. I am very, very task oriented, so most of my communication is about what needs to get done. After that, I am lost.

And the line between fun gets really, really blurry. I saw that many suggestions on other threads were about vacations to take. We have a five week one coming up in the fall. We decided where we are going for our anniversary in summer 2025 which is overseas and will take major planning/research. It is fun to research these places we are going. And yet, there is also the pressure to figure out exactly what to see, how to see it, are we doing it right, best order, did we miss anything???

And again, that is MY issue. I take anything fun and create a have-to task with it. Part of my personality. My husband is himself a very detail oriented person as well. We are both first born list makers. We work SO incredibly well together. Always have. You need a couple to get something done. We are it.

We just struggle to keep things fun and light. We have a good marriage. So I think, and maybe you can tell me if I am right or not, my next objective should be for us to have fun, enjoyable conversation. I just need to figure out exactly how to do that and how to keep it that way and not turn the conversation into a to-do list.

I think that is why my friendships have all gone away as well. I was part of groups or jobs and I worked really well with people, but again, it was all task oriented. So now that the tasks are done, the friendships are done. This probably isn't a marriage issue, but a me issue. I don't know how to just be and enjoy people.

I notice how quickly I jump up from the table to load the dishwasher and get on to the next thing while he is still there wanting to talk. I just don't know how.

You kind of amaze me. Conversation is what I wanted to discuss next.

We live in the mountain time zone. It's 6:10 AM here, and i'm leaving for work. All of the information you are giving is very very valuable. Wish I had more time right now to discuss these things with you. I hope Sugar Cane and Brain Hurts join in, they are really good.

You keep thinking on this. I have some ideas but you may have it all wrapped up by the time I get back to you. ;-)

SS

I'm trying to decide if I should comment on what you have already said, or ask you more questions... how about comments tomorrow when I am more recovered from work... and one question tonight.

How are you (both of you) doing so far this week? Note that this is not part of a greeting (hi, how are you? Just fine, and you?)

I really want to know how you are.
Asking for two reasons. One, I care and would like to know. Two, what you say will help set the tone for the comments I'll make tomorrow.

I plan on making some observations based on things you have said so far, then will discuss conversation. How about... sort of discuss it. Kind of dance around the topic and ask a lot more questions.
Wish the four of us could do this one in person. It might take a while going back and forth like this.

I get to work again next week, so we'll have to do the best we can.

SS

How are we doing? Meh.

I am not sleeping well. I am doing all of the things you are supposed to do: regular bedtimes, no caffeine after noon, no screens at least two hours before bed, dark room, cold room, hot bath, getting exercise during the day, etc. But still only 5 to 6 hours a night, though I think I am awake more often than my Apple Watch shows.

My husband has had some bad days painwise. One morning we just walked in silence. Neither one of us had much if anything to say. Neither of us were mad or anything. Neither of us felt our best, though.

He also had super bad allergies one afternoon evening and felt like crap. He is taking his allergy meds again, so he is better.

Our fun date this week was to a beautiful garden that had walking trails, but that was the day his pain was awful, so he was really, really quiet. I wish I had gone by myself so I could have just prayed and wrote in my journal or for my blog. He was being a trooper and trying to be with me. It is just hard. I can tell when he is in pain even though he never complains.

And I will just add for the moderators, I still have trouble getting in to post. No matter what browser I use I get a gateway error. It takes many times of trying over much time before I can finally post. I think most people would just give up and assume the forum is broken.

My fitbit watch says I'm asleep if I lay quietly and don't toss and turn much. Even if I lay awake for hours.

I retired at the end of December 2021. My job was physically demanding, and I usually worked 10 to 11 hour days. Lay down in bed, instant asleep. In retirement I have had trouble sleeping. Go to bed, can't fall asleep. Go to sleep, wake up at 2 am, can't go back to sleep until almost time to get up then sleep until 7 or 8 when I should be up. Or, wake up at 4:30 and just get up because I know I won't be able to sleep anyway. Until about a month ago.

Now I sleep most nights just fine. Have no idea how or why it changed. Was praying right along for help. As you said, was ticking off all the fall asleep boxes. It's like God flipped a switch inside of me, and I can lay down and sleep. Get up in the middle of the night to use the restroom and fall right back asleep. Wake up in the morning 5 minutes before the alarm goes off, as I used to when I worked full time.

The only thing that might be different... went back through the Marriage Builders materials the last 3 or 4 months. Fine tuned our marriage again. More at ease all the time. Less worries about life, or the problems of life. All our troubles have not gone away, we just don't care as much about them. I look ar her, she winks at me. We are in public, I squeeze her hand three times... it means
I
love
you
She smiles at me and nods her head. Is MB the difference? I don't know. Perhaps it's just coincidence.

I hope you get relief. Not getting enough sleep seemed to make our troubles worse. I am pretty much an optimist. Much more difficult to be an optimist when you are not getting enough sleep. I never did doubt or complain. I would lay awake for hours, often praying. Would tell God I knew he could help me, but that he knew best, and if I needed to learn something from the experience, he should do what was best for me. I made a deal with God many years ago. He can do whatever he wants with me, and I will go along with it and try to learn and improve no matter what happens to me. Looking back at my life, I can see how I received great benefits from some of the things that were the most difficult.

I know God does not cause all of our problems, but he is magnificent in that he is able to take these things and turn them to our benefit, no matter what the problem is or was.

I'll keep going, but feel to say there is a reason I'm sharing these things with you. Will tie it all together soon.


When I was 27, I was in an accident and broke my ankle. I lived in a small town, that had one orthopedic surgeon. He did the best he could, but I was often in pain. Hiking was a pretty big part of my life back then. I co founded a hiking club, of which I was the President the first two years. (By the way, this club is still in operation.) As the years went on, the pain got worse.

For many years we owned and operated a camping store. In 2008 when the recession hit, we had just borrowed the money to pay off our partner, and to buy the building were in. We lost money in 2008, and knew that if the loss continued it would bankrupt us. We couldn't make the payments to the bank, so we had a going out of business sale and made just enough money to pay all our debt. No job, but debt free. A mixed blessing.

My grandfather was a mechanic. He started in the 1920's. Retired in the 1960's. As a small boy I would hand him tools, and I learned a lot about fixing things.

So... many years after I helped my grandfather, my business is gone and I am looking for a job. I have some skill as a mechanic. We get a call from someone we know well who has a construction company. He has been through three mechanics in three years and wants someone he can trust. He knows my history. I have work, but it's hard working on heavy equipment. Dump trucks, loaders, track hoe's, diesel generators. We live in the desert southwest (United States) with temps up to 115 F in the summer. It was hard on me. By the time I retired, I was having a hard time walking. I would go home and get out of my truck and needed crutches to get in the house. It hurt so bad I couldn't put my foot on the ground. Next morning, it hurt, but I could walk... repeated over and over.

Retired in December 2021. January 2022 had a brand new nylon/stainless steel ankle installed. Had asked what could be done over the years, and they finally had an artificial ankle that would work. Couldn't afford to do it until retirement as there is such a long recovery time. Now I have normal aches and pains, but I can walk, and even hike again. God is kind. In any other age of the world, the pain would have been with me til death. What a blessing to live in this day and time. As I said earlier, there is a reason I'm telling you these things.


So, he walks because it hurts just as much to sit still, so he might as well be doing something?


Sometimes, when two people are in love, it is enough just to be together. It doesn't make the pain go away, but somehow things are better when the one you love is with you. Have you asked him how he feels? Is he going because it's his duty to go, or because he wants to be with you? Both of you need to know the answer.

Part of being totally in love, part of the magic, is being totally one with each other. Understanding each other. When you get to the point where you are so much in love that knowing the others feelings is automatic, you will feel the magic. Until then, you have to practice by talking to each other. You cannot become one with someone unless you're willing to give them the information they need to make the connection. It goes both ways in marriage. Magic does not come to marriage with a magic wand, It comes bit by bit as you change your habits and do the things that brings the magic into your lives.

Doctor Harley has a list of things... that if you do them, your marriage becomes much much better. What he is not telling you, Is that while you are doing these things, a process takes place In your hearts, and in your minds. The two of you change and start to become one. What used to be I, becomes WE. The change starts to take place because of things that you do. As with all other skills, whether they be teaching or dance, it takes practice.


You and I have been having a conversation. In one way, it is a task oriented conversation. You are looking for ways to improve your marriage, so you came to the MB forum to have a conversation about how to do that.

I've given you a lot of background information about myself that I do not ordinarily give this early in conversation with anyone. As you read these things, you get a better understanding of who it is that is talking to you. We are real people with similar struggles to your husband and yourself. It creates A little more trust that you will get the help you need. If someone else has used these materials to have a more successful marriage, then why not you?

So, you and I have been having this conversation.
Has this conversation been enjoyable to you? As opposed to something that you just have to do, because you need the information.
If yes, do you understand why?

Much of what we need to know about improving our marriage comes from understanding and improving ourselves. You are worried that you are not a good conversationalist. I am wondering if this is more about you needing to share things with your husband that you're afraid to share.

If you are ever uncomfortable with anything i say here, just come back and say "Still Seeking, I would like to change directions."
I will understand what you mean.

My take on this is that you are a very good conversationalist. You are intelligent and you express yourself well. You've been very open about some things because you need information. But you were also very guarded about other things. I think you are a modest person by nature.

On the gateway error -
I sent an email about a month ago. No one replied to me. I use various methods to get in. The error only happens after I login. Before I login, I don't get the error. After I login, it takes you to the screen where it says "Enter the marriage builders discussion forum"
I have never been able to get in from that prompt.

I have bookmarked your thread in my browser, and I go directly to that bookmark. That gets me in most of the time. Sometimes I get "gateway error" even then, but if I try again, I always get in.

One of these days when I have a little more time and don't need to post, I'll try to get someone else's attention so that it can be fixed, But I have never had a close relationship with the mods/ tech support people. For your information, there was more than ten years when I didn't post at all. I just came back a few months ago. Felt like I needed to be back.

Next -
Next post, I'll tell you a little about my grandmother, who was a school teacher.

OK, I have a great many things I need to post to you about. Today was just the tip of the iceberg.
However, my grandmother really was a school teacher, and I might tell you a little bit about her.

As I am fond of saying... Smile, it's good for your face.

SS

So, I am lost... What do I need to do? What is the next step I need to take?

Can we make sure of where you are at this point in time? I believe you are familiar with most of Dr Harley's basic concepts. I will not comment on everything. We also need to know if your H understands them?

From the MB website: A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
Basic Concept #1: The Love Bank -
Basic Concept #2: Instincts and Habits
This one goes along with Love Busters. They can either improve your Marriage, or tear it apart, depending on good or bad habits
You have said you don't believe either of you has a problem with these.
Basic Concept #3: Love Busters

Basic Concept #4: The Most Important Emotional Needs
Both of you should have completed an Emotional Needs Questionnaire. I know YOU have. If your H has not, that is the next step.
Basic Concept #5: The Policy of Undivided Attention
You should be spending at least 15 hours a week doing things together. I know you have filled out the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory. By now you should have made adjustments and be spending your time doing things you both really enjoy.
If not, make these adjustments as you go along. Please note, this does not mean you never do things the other does not feel as strongly about as you do, but I recommend those times be in addition to 20 or more hours doing things you really like.

Basic Concept #6: The Policy of Joint Agreement
You should be following this policy. I have not seen you post about it, but it's just as important as the rest of the concepts.

Basic Concept #7: Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation
Basic Concept #8: The Policy of Radical Honesty
If your H does not know when you want SF, he can''t help you. You should let him decide if the pain is to much. (that's my opinion, for what it's worth)
You talked about knowing what the other will do in any given situation. How you know each other really well. This applies to feelings too. When I mentioned becoming one leads to the magic, I was mostly thinking of knowing each others feelings. If you always know when your H is burning with desire for you, and he knows when you have those feelings for him, skip to the next item. If not, work on this one as you go along.

Basic Concept #9: The Giver and Taker
We have not really discussed this one either. If either of you give to much, you are suffering to make the other happy. If either one takes to much, the other suffers.

Basic Concept #10: The Three States of Mind in Marriage
You should be in the state of Intimacy.

Make sure you are doing well with all of these basic concepts, or working on them and improving.
Next up, Making sure your emotional needs are being met.

SS

Dr Harley on emotional needs -
I'm in the business of trying to save all marriages, not just average marriages, so I encourage each couple to ignore what I say about average male and female needs and identify those that are unique to them. That way each spouse's list of the most important emotional needs reflects what he or she appreciates the most. When they meet those needs for each other, they create the greatest happiness, and trigger a mutual feeling of love.

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Intimate Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration


Since SF does so much for you, and you put it first, that is where to put the most effort. If you had wonderful SF three days a week, your love bank would always be full. At least, that is what it looks like based on your prior comments.
You have already had a conversation with your H about it. Part of the problem is his pain. Hopefully you two have worked out a better arrangement for both of you.
Will his condition get worse? Is he improving.? Will it get better? It sounds like your giver does a lot of work helping him. (emotional well as physical) Your taker might not be happy.
Sometimes we think our giver should keep giving, and our taker should just shut up. Remember though, Dr Harley did not invent the giver or taker inside of us. He merely identified the way our minds work and gave a name to things we feel or do. You really do need to consider how to get this need met by your H, so that you can feel the magic all the time.

You are taking care of Recreational Companionship. Just remember to spend most of the time on things you BOTH enjoy.

Admiration -
Based on what you said about teaching and Bible Study... I think you were (partially anyway) getting this need, and conversation met doing these things.
You said "not sure if that makes sense." It does. It did when I first read it.

Can your H do more with admiration? You say he already does well, but can he do even better? Deep down inside are there things you do that you don't feel he notices? Does your taker want him to notice what your giver does for him?
It may be that he really is covering it all the way around.
Think on this one a little longer. One of the things you can do is compare how your needs are being met now, to how they were being met when you first started dating and got married.

Conversation -
You have said quite a bit about this one. Most of it is speculation. In other words, you are thinking about it and trying to figure out what you need, and how to make it work.
Two things -
One
I have a friend who I served closely with in various church positions. One evening I asked him what he had planned for the next day .He said "I am going shopping with my wife." Knowing that shopping was not one of his favorite activities, I told him I was sorry he had to do that.
Then he said something that made me think about my own marriage. He said "Oh no, you don't understand, It doesn't matter what we do, I just want to spend time with her.
If conversation is also important to your H, can you do that for him? Can you talk about anything just to be talking to HIM. It will get easier in time
Two
- If the conversation is for you - You will probably need to form new conversational habits. Perhaps you can start by making a suggestion list of things that you COULD talk about. Things you have done, things you will do. Things your H does that you are thankful for. What things are important to your H that you could talk about every day, but that you have not been interested in. Would you be more interested if it was on your "To Do" list and you got to check it off when you talked about it?
Would conversation be more fun if you talked about SF?
This is probably enough for today.
SS

I know I said it was enough for today, but I feel like I need to explain one thing a little better.

You said your conversation needed to get away from to do lists and be more fun.

The only reason I suggested you put conversation as a do do list item is that you need to start somewhere. You are good at getting things done.
If today you added " have a 1 hour light, fun conversation with H" you could probably figure out how to do it.

Figure this out with your husband's help. The two of you will do a better job than either one of you alone.

SS

No, he doesn't know these. I do not feel comfortable bringing him to this place with as much as I've said.

I will give him the Emotional Need Questionaire.

We are together 24/7, much more than 15 hours. But these are the enjoyable hours:
Walking 1.5-3 hours 5 days a week. (So that is at least 10 hours a week there.)
An enjoyable outing once a week for at least half a day (4-5 hours)
Does church count? (3 hours)
We often go out with another couple and to be honest, that is the most fun time out of all of this other than church because the other people carry the conversation. We laugh and it is fun.

Policy of Joint Agreement: I think we have always done this. He checks with me about everything. If anything, I may be the one that tends to just do what I want.

I know that I need to work on radical honesty. He is very good at that.

I will have to read the four guidelines for successful negotiation. We never fight, so I am not sure if that is part of that or not. Will have to read this one. I will try to do that tonight.

Yes, I think we are both givers in all aspects of our lives.

I think church should count. We sit next to each other... I get to listen to her sing the hymns. She has a wonderful voice and it makes me feel so good to hear her sing. After we get home, we often discuss the message given in the worship service.. On the other hand, my voice is not so good and she has to listen to me sing. Oh well.

She teaches Sunday School on the first and third Sundays and I get to listen. Sometimes I assist.
It's nice when humorous things happen. Last week the church WIFI system dropped her right in the middle of a PowerPoint presentation. My phone usually connects a little better, and she asked me if I could make my phone a hotspot so she could connect through my phone.

So anyway we got connected again, She whispered to me " You're my hotspot."
I thought another lady on the front row was going to die trying to stifle her laugh. My wife said later she didn't think anyone would be able to hear.

We definitely count church into our time together.

SS

Today has been a good day.

I read the 4 guidelines of successful negotiation. I guess I don't know what we would need to negotiate. We rarely disagree. The rules sound fine and almost like, yeah, duh. I mean maybe we have done that unconsciously. But I was born old. I remember listening to my parents scream at each other growing up. They heard the words the other one said but not the thoughts/heart behind it. I used to imagine sitting them down and saying, "Mom, you hear dad saying xxxy but what he is really saying is he is scared to death of losing you." or whatever I could hear them saying. They didn't look at the other person's side at all. They didn't listen. So I have always tried to look at the other person's side first before my own, if I have one. Most of the time, if you look at things from their point of view, their requests are very, very reasonable.


I also gave him the emotional needs questionnaire. His top needs are Honesty and Openness, Physical Attractiveness, and Recreational Companionship.

Good for you!
I am always happy when others have good days. Hope you keep having them.

I did not think you needed a lot of work with the four guidelines of suggested negotiation. Just listed all the "basics" to make sure.

Now that you know his needs, what are you thinking?
Would that take too much time to type out? (Just teasing.)

Does he know your needs?

If yes, what is he thinking about this process and what he has learned about you?

Still Seeking thinks about husband's number one need being honesty and openness, and hesitates to say the first thing that comes to mind...

Okay. I'm going to tell you what i'm thinking and i'm not going to hold anything back. I mean, it's not bad thoughts, maybe just not what you would expect me to say.

This first little bit is background information...
Having been on the forums for many years, very few men have honesty and openness as their first emotional need. If you have watched Dr Harley's videos on emotional needs, most men choose SF.

Now there's nothing wrong with someone choosing other needs as their number one. And again this is for background information, it's not in any way a judgment. I say this last because we are using words on a page to communicate. We don't have facial expression or tone of voice to help us understand the other's point of view. We can't look into another persons eyes to better understand where they are coming from. I just want to make sure you don't misunderstand why I am telling you these things, so I give more information than I might otherwise give.

In most cases, (based on my reading here for over 20 years) those who choose honesty and openess as their number one need have a spouse having an affair, and they want to know the truth. They need the truth to make decisions about their future. So... historically, most people on this website that have chosen honesty and openness as their number one need have had a catastrophic event happen in their lives that made them choose that as their number one.

Having said all that, does your Husband perhaps sense you have feelings you are not willing to share? Does he want to be as close to you as he possibly can, but feels down inside you are maybe holding some things back?

Or could it be that you waited a long time to tell him about your depression with all those associated feelings, and he doesn't ever want that to happen again?

I am trying to get a better feel for the way your husband thinks. You probably already know why he made that choice.

Feel free to comment. And again, If you could see me in person, you would know that all I want is to make this work for you. If I am putting the words together in ways that make you feel uncomfortable then I am sorry, and hope you will forgive me. I wish I was better at this.

Physical attractiveness as his second. You made some comments about that, and it looks like you are correct.

I feel to ask you... Did he comment to you about each one of his choices?
When my wife and I fill out the questionnaires, we talk to each other in detail about our choices. I hope the two of you are doing that. It is much easier to meet someone's needs if you know all the reasons why they picked that particular need.

Recreational Companionship is third, and you have said you feel good about this one. Hopefully your H feels good about it too?

Still Seeking will be working three or 4 days again this week and may be slow with replies. I hope you will keep posting about your progress.

The first week of July we'll be going to a cabin in the wilderness for 4 days. Thank Elon Musk for Starlink. We will have internet.

Not that I'll admit to getting on much. Mostly W and i will enjoy each other's company. We'll be the only ones there.

Remember that working your marriage improvement plan will not usually bring overnight success. I think I said it took us a couple of years. Slow and steady.

SS

Oh please don't worry about offending me. And I apologize if I hurt your feelings about the get to the point. I regretting writing it and was going to erase it, but you can't do that on this forum.

Yes, we talked about our answers. He has a sheet on his board about his goals in life and number one is to be a man of integrity like his grandfather. He wants to live a very moral and upright life and always be right with the Lord. And so his wife should be the same. She should be a beacon of integrity to the community. No lying to people or cheating them. So openness and honesty is more about that.

Family Commitment was also important but he decided not rank it in the top 3 since we no longer have children at home. But his number two goal on his board is to have a Christian family. Even now though, his family is very important to him. He has maybe one friend but is super close to his family. He always made our children the priority. He is the one that cried when we dropped them off, not me. Luckily, he has a wonderful family of origin. I love all of them. My family was dysfunctional and spread out. Now that my family are all dead, we spend a lot of time with them.

Physical Attractiveness is more like physical fitness. Did I mention that there is a ton of obesity in his family? He is very vigilant and disciplined so he doesn't end up like them. He exercises every single day without fail no matter the weather. My walking with him makes him happy because he feels like I am at least doing something in that area. He wants us to be able to hike and be outdoors and do stuff into our 80's and 90's.

Recreational Companionship- His number three goal on the board is to be married to one wife for 50 years or more. And the forth one is to enjoy going on trips with his wife. We do that. A lot.

Ok, my needs: SF.. He just doesn't want SF to be a chore. He has so many other things that feel like duty that he doesn't want this to be another item on a checklist. (I have never had to give him a honey-do list. Ever. He has a yellow pad that he makes a daily to do list on that is practically the whole sheet. He will never ever finish. )

Admiration. Yes, he does a good job and has since our my breakdown a decade ago. His engineering mind is such that he looks at a room and instantly sees what is wrong. One day ( before our long conversation about this a decade ago) I spent the morning cleaning the kitchen and when he came in his comment was, "We should really get out the vacuum cleaner and vacuum around the finials as a lot of crumbs are there." I didn't tell him at the time, but during my breakdown I told him how demoralizing that was. Nothing was ever good enough. Attention to detail was extremely important to his work, but it made me feel like I couldn't do anything right. The kids had a joke that there was their clean, mom's clean and then dad's clean. When he cleans the kitchen I almost hate to eat in there. He uses toothpicks around the edges and such. Anyway, for the last decade he goes out of his way to praise me and thank me for everything I do. I will also say that the one good thing to come out of his medical event a decade ago was that he doesn't care about those nit picky things anymore either. In fact, I care more about the condition of the house than he does these days. We have kind of met in the middle.

But honestly my top need is not even on Dr. Harley's list. it is for fun and laughter. He used to make me laugh A LOT when we were dating. When people have gotten to know him better, they are always surprised at how funny he is.

I wanted to come back because the description above makes him sound rather cold. He is not at all. Though he is an introvert, he is very, very, very good with people. He has a way of making people feel safe and heard. Someone stopped to ask him for advice yesterday in church. They like it when he is in the deacon meetings because he is a gentle voice of reason, who speaks with love. When he was working he was always the one that was mediating the difficulties between partners. He is very humble when most in his profession are arrogant. He has always told me he loves me multiple times a day. We always say it last thing if we talk on the phone or when we say goodbye in person. He loves to shower me with gifts and will buy something for me just because. The kids still joke because my pile at Christmas from him is always 3 times the size of the kids. Though now that we are older and kids are older we don't get much for each other anymore.

He is hardest of all on himself and berates himself for any and every mistake he makes whether it be cooking the roast too long or a parenting decision. He is still talking about mistakes he made with me 20 years ago and apologizing.

I did a good job of listening to him talk about his favorite subject this morning. He needs to buy some new lithium batteries for the RV. So I listened to all the pros and cons of each one, even though I have heard most, if not all of it many times before. I asked probing questions, looked him in the eye,etc. I know he doesn't want to make a mistake and buy the wrong ones. I am sure I will hear him a couple more times before he finally buys them.

We will be spending 4 hours in the car today, so I need to brainstorm more topics to talk about. It is just hard. Without my teaching job or having something that takes me regularly out of the home, I feel like I don't have much material to talk about. But I will brainstorm this morning.

How did it go?

You mentioned that they won't let us edit after posting.
We can edit for a few minutes only. Not sure why the very short window.

SS looks thoughtful...
Many things I would like to comment on. Not tonight though.

SS

Went fine. We had an enjoyable conversation for 45 minutes or so, then ran out of stuff to say and I fell asleep when he turned on a podcast.

I laughed about it. (And am smiling right now). It's nice to work with people who know what they want.


Do you enjoy these trips as much as he does?
I am wondering if you had a board similar to his, what would be on yours?

I know that teaching was a large part of your life for a long time. I am wondering if it was part vocation, part hobby. I suspect you were good at it. You felt well balanced then, not quite so much now. You mentioned giving up leading Bible Study in the same paragraph as retiring from teaching. Both are teaching. Different format, much the same skill set.

One of my questions early on was "have you had any recent problems in your marriage... affairs, death of a close family member, or any emotionally stressful events or traumatic changes in either of your lives?"

Some of these were quite a while ago, but all are, or can be extremely stressful and life changing.

Depression (you)
Medical event (husband)
Retirement (both)
Move to a new location ? Did I get that right?
Becoming empty nesters
Being a care taker for someone with ongoing medical struggles

Emotionally stressful? Great big YES
Traumatic changes? Yes also.

There are lots of thoughts going through my mind about these things. I could probably write a half a page about how each one can affect your emotional state, and the stability and well being of your marriage.

You really don't need to comment on this part, I'm just wondering if you realize how traumatic these kinds of changes can be to a person. ( Of course you can comment on anything you want, but in this case, I'm commenting, not asking.)

I think you are carrying a pretty heavy load. Stress can and does affect our physical and mental health. I don't think you're about to drop the ball and run out screaming into the night. I do think you ought to give yourself a little credit, and realize there are reasons for your feelings. If it feels like you've been carrying a heavy weight, well, you have been.


I can see why you'd want to list laughter and happy times as an emotional need. You should probably know that Dr. Harley has said his Emotional Needs list is not all inclusive, and people are welcome to add other emotional needs. I don't have a link to a reference for that, but he has said it more than once. If you want to list fun/laughter as a need, you are welcome to do that.



We might as well have a little fun with this. If anyone calls me on it, I'll say it was your idea.

Getting to the point...
All the things that happen to us can affect the state of our marriage and also our personal well being. Some of the stress will go away naturally over time. Some (like dealing with ongoing medical problems) might require help. Make sure you visit with God about THESE THINGS. You once said that a man and woman's purpose is to glorify God. I agree with that... but I can tell you from personal experience that he really does want us to be happy. I don't say that because I read it in a book somewhere. I know it because during some of my most difficult struggles, he filled my soul joy, taught me that I was worth far more than any amount of sparrows, and showed me that I would get the help I needed.

I believe you will also get the help you need.

Keep working your plan. Some days you'll wonder if it does any good. Some days you'll feel a little bit of the passion and wish it was full time, permanent.

It WILL get better.

SS

Felt like I needed to post these things tonight.

Here is the last ten years


breast cancer diagnosis for husband's mom
Medical Event for husband
Depression (And there were A LOT of stressful things the ten years prior that led to medical event and my depression. I am only listing the last decade.)
Child calling from mental hospital and subsequent in and out treatment for a few years
Death of one of husband's dad
Forced retirement for both of us: my school suddenly closed, his medical event made him unable to continue working in his career
Covid shortly after that
When we were vaccinated and ready to start going out into the world my mom got breast cancer for the 3rd time, stage 4 this time with memory issues now so I spent a year caring for her until she died.
Legal issue rears its head from husband's old job

So yeah. We basically finish one crisis when another raises its head. In good times, I wait for the other shoe to drop. That has been 20 of our 40 years of marriage.

So yes, we are tired and yes, i get that it takes a toll. But I am weary of being in crisis mode. And yes, I have journaled this with the Lord. A lot. But I miss having friends to also talk with it about and/or just doing something else to keep my mind off of it and to be happy for awhile. And yes, I adore teaching.

As far as my list, I will have to go find it wherever I put it. We had gone away by ourselves to talk about our marriage and goals or something and the question was: At the end of my life it will have been successful if

I had someone ask me that question about my writing (how will you know it is successful) and I honestly have no answer to those questions. You could sum it up to God saying, "Well, done good and faithful servant." If God asked me to do it, then I did it. The problem is I so often feel like I am walking in the dark with no direction. And yes, my husband knows this. We have talked about it often.

Greetings CS
(is it OK if I call you CS?)


It's very difficult to live in crisis mode. You are no longer near your friends. You are a caretaker to your H. He worries about you. You worry about him. You worry about the two of you as a couple.

There's more that goes on here (on the MB forums) than trying to help people with their marriages. Life can be heavy at times. Worse when you don't get a rest. Building your marriage can help, but it doesn't provide relief for all of lifes problems. Please understand, I don't feel like you are complaining. You are answering questions. You write well, I can feel... what you are going through. Though, to say "I can feel what you are going through" does not really describe what I am getting from reading what you write.

Sometimes what I do at work requires all of my concentration. Sometimes it is repetitive and I can think. I read your last post on Wed, and have been thinking about life and things we go through. We watch our children grow up, and we hurt for them when they struggle. Some times we wish we could do more, but to learn they have to struggle through hard things just as we do. I can imagine our Father in Heaven watching us and saying "come on, you can do this."

I asked my (earthly) Father some years ago if it ever gets easier. He said "no, it never gets easier, but you do get better at dealing with it." He knew exactly what I meant when I asked.

Well, you could be having a really happy day, and the tone of this post might be bringing you low. I have tried (in recent years) to stop worrying so much about almost everything.
Yesterday at work they asked me how I was doing. I said "This is a great week. I have not been in jail this week, my wife didn't leave me (yet) this week. I woke up this morning, and I wasn't dead, so life is good."
I suppose it's all relative.


I have been wondering what kind of writing you are doing. I understand that it is none of my business really. You don't have to comment.
I was wondering "is she writing for publication? Perhaps a text book? Spiritual encouragement for others?"

Early in life I wondered what I wanted to "be" or to accomplish before my life was finished. I wanted to be a good Husband, a good Father.
Just like you, I would be in Heaven if my Savior tells me " Well done thou good and faithful servant." (Pun intended)
If I sometimes am able to help my fellow travelers have a little better day than they might have otherwise have, then its a good thing. I always hope to help.

Tomorrow's post (hopefully) will discuss marriage builders materials. Meeting needs and spending time with your H as opposed to coping with stress in ongoing crisis mode.

SS

So,
You have identified your most important needs, your husband has identified his most important needs. Both of you are trying to better meet those needs for the other.

Both of you have identified your favorite recreational activities.

There are reasons why some important needs cannot be met as well as you would like them to be. You uderstand and accept those reasons. Things could be better, but they are not terrible.

You are adjusting recreational time as you go along so that you are doing more of what you both like, less of what just one of you likes.

There are ongoing medical appointments, one of which was scheduled this last week. I hope these are helping and not just maintaining the status quo. My uncle was a surgeon, He told me that while the medical community knows a great deal, there are still many things they do not know and they are not always able to help. We hope your H is getting help.

One of your ongoing concerns is that there is a big hole where your job used to be, and there's nothing happening in your life to fill that hole.

Conversation was an important part of your life while you had full employment, and even though you did not list it as one of your top 3 needs, you're trying to figure out how to improve conversation in your marriage. Make it more fun, not just talk to take care of business. Or if some of it has to be about taking care of business, lighten it up a little bit.

Fun, laughter, and having happy times may be as important to you as any of your other listed needs. Stress has edged out happy times, you want a rest.

You are not sure what direction you need to go. You know that improving your marriage will help, but you are wondering if that will be enough. If God sent an angel with a task for you to complete, it would help, because you would know for sure, without no doubts. However, based on historical events recorded in scripture, this does not happen very often, so you're not looking for that kind of event.
Still wondering though?
Still seeking the Lords will?

Are recreational activities feeling like place holders to you?
OK, but kind of like eating diet food, not very fulfilling?
Or, are you really enjoying time the time you spend doing things with your husband?

Now that you have talked to your H about your needs, does your taker feel better about what you are getting, or does this still need fine tuning (or a major remodel?)

Is your giver going to be able to keep giving aid to your H as needed? Well, you and I both believe you will help him as long as is necessary. Perhaps a better question is... is there a small part of you somewhere that struggles with it, and it wears you out?

The bottom line... after all these questions. Does it feel like your marriage and your life are getting happier, and improving. Or does it feel about the same?

Are you smiling more because it's good for your face?

Next time up, will most likely say more about creating the magic in your marriage. The things we are discussing can really make a difference, but it can be an art as well as a science. Have you ever secretly wanted to be an artist?

We hope you have some positive things to share, but share your feelings either way.

SS

OK, where were we?
SS looks through his notes...

Here we are, right where we left off.
Getting the MAGIC back into the marriage.

We read Dr. Harley's materials, and it sounds like a recipe. Like making cookies or baking a cake. You put in all the correct ingredients, Mix them in the right order, and bake at the right temperature for the proper amount of time.

You may have noticed that many Chefs are more than just cooks. They are artists also, and you really enjoy what comes out of their kitchen. They have learned a lot more than basic recipes and standard cook times. They become masters at what they do.

Add a different spice here, a little butter there. Turn up the oven temp 30 degrees for the last ten minutes. I am really not one of those kind of cooks, but I have eaten their cooking and I love it when the whole meal is perfect.

There is a new italian restaurant (here) in town. I took the wife there for dinner a couple of weeks ago. It was one of those wonderful dining experiences... From the salad and bread, through the end of the entr'ee. It cost a little more to go there, but it was well worth it, and we will go back.

There are musicians who can play an instrument, and there are those who enthrall you.

Some people can paint a landscap, others fill the canvas with magic colors and shapes.

Many photographers snap pictures, some are... well... they are artists.
I am sure I left many examples unsaid, but you understand.

I try to bring this mentality to our marriage. Why not?
Why have just a good marriage when you could have a MAGIC marriage? Most of us did things when we were dating that are similar to what I will list below. We felt the magic then. And again, these things are just following Dr. Harleys rules for meeting needs. I am just meeting needs as often as I can even if they are not at the top of the list. Sure I do the listed ones too, in lots of ways.

I am love bombing my W 7 days a week, all year. I bet most of you out there can do much better than I do. Try to become an artist in applying MB concepts to your marriage.

DISCLAIMER -
Still seeking is an average guy, average intelligen, average skill set. When it comes to marriage skills, I am probably more like a cook in Chef school than an actual Chef. The thing is, I know what I want from my marriage, and I aim to have it.

Looking for Radical Honesty one day, I asked my W "so how am I doing at marriage building since we have gone back through the MB materials?"
She said " well, you are not perfect, but what women wouldn't want to have what you are doing for me?" Another time she told one of her friends that she thought I was improving, and given another 1 to 1.5 million years I might get really good at it.
I took that as a compliment.

It is impossible for me to know you (anyone who reads this) well enough to outline a plan for you. What I can do is tell you some of the things we do, and let you decide if any of them will work for you. Everyone is different, and has different needs. At one point we (comfortable shoe and I) briefly talked about how Emotional Needs can change from week to week, and even from day to day. As an example, my W and I are both retired, and I have little need for domestic support. I can make my own meals, do the laundry, and help clean the house. This changes radically when (occasionally) I get called back into work. Working 10 to 11 hour days in 105 to 110 deg heat takes a toll on me, and it's wonderful to come home to dinner ready, and no other chores for me to do. Adjustments have to be made... sometimes daily. Depends on our partners health and state of mind on any given day. It also depends on OUR health and state of mind. If we are having a difficult day, it's hard to maintain a high level of support for our spouse.
Most who read this will already know these things. However, in the middle of every day life we sometimes forget. We sometimes complain our needs are not being met (our taker does) or we feel guilty (our giver does) because we know we ought to be doing more for our companion, but we just can't make it work TODAY. I have found that our marriage is still getting better even if we both struggle to meet needs sometimes. We are not perfect, but we want to feel the magic, so we keep working on it.

All of us live in real life, we need to review the MB materials and recommit ... often.

I may as well SAY THIS...
I challenge those who read this to get your phone out and callendar an MB review for a year out, or whatever you feel is the best time frame for you. Make it reoccurring.
My W and I both put it in (just now) for next year.

Some of this may seem seem too simple, almost juvenile. Or silly.
Some of it might seem too difficult. Some is just comon courtesy, that is not so common these days. Many who read here may already be doing this stuff. More power to you!

I am not telling you what YOU should do, just telling you what we do so you can catch the vision for your own relationship. YOU NEED TO FIND WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

NOTE, this won't work with someone who is not committed. It usually won't work when only one of you is trying. Both should be on board.

Things you should know right up front -
My wife and I are both retired from our full time jobs. This makes some things much easier for us.
We exercise early mornings Monday through Thursday for 1.5 to 2 hours on normal weeks.

We sleep in on Fridays or Saturdays (usually only one of these days) and we enjoy each other's company. Affection, conversation, SF, admiration. If something comes up that interferes, we can always cancel exercise on one day, and still get this special time together. And it is special. Soft music. Sometimes candles. Can't explain with words, but we try. Sacred. Wonderful. Beautiful. Marvelous. MAGIC.

Most of this will be things that I do for my wife. Written from the husband's point of view. I will include some of her responses.

Random things I say to my wife. These are direct quotes, but I won't use " marks because it's easier for me.

I love you - (more than once a day.)
You may not know this, but I'm in love with you, and I like it.
You make my life better. Thanks for that.
I'm so glad you married me, you make my life better.
You look so beautiful this morning.
I love waking up in the morning and finding you next to me.
I love going to sleep at night with you laying next to me.
Oh you beautiful, sexy women, thanks for marrying me. I sure like it.
How do you do that? She says "do what?" I say, how do you look, so beautiful and sexy every day. I love it!!!!!
What does she do when I say these things? Sometimes she blushes, sometimes she winks at me. Sometimes she rearranges my schedule for me and keeps me busy for a while.

I sing this song to her in the morning -
"Nothing's quite as pretty as Mary in the morning" only I put her name in place of Mary. "Mary in the morning" Elvis Presley
I sing:
You are so beautiful - Joe Cocker
Beautiful - Gordon Lightfoot
Make it with you - David Gates and Bread
I'll have to say I love you in a song - Jim Croce
Your Song - Elton John
A groovy kind of love -Phil Collins
Have I told you lately that I love you- Rod Stewart
Color my world - Chicago
Always on my mind - Willie Nelson
When you say nothing at all - Keith Whitley and or Allison Krauss

I usually don't remember all the words, but I get the beginning out, and she knows the songs. I am getting better. She does tell me sometimes that I should not quit my day job to be a singer, but it's the thought that counts, and she gets it.

Oh, and
I wish they all could be California girls - the Beach Boys. Because she grew up in southern California.

There's probably more, but you get the idea.
What are the songs that were magic for you early on in your relationship?

Some nights, after we do our scripture study I'll play love songs on u-tube, on the TV. Make a custom play list and we just listen and snuggle up together and we... we are just in love and we both like it. We feel the magic. Our own private concert.

So the art part is learning when to do all these things and exactly what to do. You get better at it as you go along. When you're in love and they are always on your mind, you look for things that will make them happy. It takes effort in the beginning, but after a while it's effortless. Or at least, it's a lot easier.

Again, this only works for people that want to improve their marriage. It won't work if one or the other doesn't want to do the work, or doesn't care. One can't do it alone.

There's more, but this is enough for one post.

SS

First of all Still Seeking, thank you so very much for taking time to respond. Once again, I haven't been able to get into this forum despite trying several times. And I haven't had much time to devote to it as we had VBS last week.

I guess I am just not sure where to go from here... Will check in for a few more days. However, the two of us will leave this weekend to go to a third world country to serve for a month on the mission field. So I will not have access to the internet after Sunday for awhile.

Again Still Seeking. Thank you for your help.

Like here is an example:

I went to a ladies event at church last night. I had such a wonderful time. We laughed so much. I came home on cloud 9. And hubby was down. I had called him to ask about something that day and he had said no, but then realized we should have said yes. I probably should have followed up with my reasonings, when I made the initial call, but didn't and then he figured out the reasonings (had to do with supporting our best friends). So now he was so angry and upset with himself. Also, he had several projects at the house that didn't go well and he was trying to figure all of that out, so he wasn't in a great mood. I went to bed worried and upset because of my husband's mood... had trouble sleeping.

I know that Dr. Harley says that our most enjoyable hours should be spent with our spouse, but with his physical and emotional status right now, I do not know if that is possible. It just makes me upset that my fun time with my friends was ruined.

SS is traveling to the mountais today to cool off. Daughter is visiting from 2 states away. I'll try to get back to you tonight.

Does this kind of thing happen often?

Enjoy!!

Yes.

Do you treat each other as equals in your relationship?
I can see that sometimes you defer to him. Does this go both ways?

I don't have time tonight to do as much background explaining as I would like. We don't have much time left before you go. Would like to give you some things to think through while you are gone.

Why am I asking about this?
My belief is that men and women approach things differently, and that this is a good thing. It is the differences that make the union of a man and a women more than the sum of the parts. There was a time when I wished my wife was more like I am. Now I am thankful she is not. There was a time when I would discount her opinion, now I often feel her Input is worth more than my own.

So, do you feel your input is valued?
When you have a conversation with your husband does it feel like two equals conversing and coming to agreement?


I am a perfectionist, and also I am obsessive/compulsive. I want things done RIGHT NOW, and I want them done PERFECTLY.
Oh man, the problems this has caused in our relationship. Note I said "has caused," and I did not say "is causing".

As I contemplated retirement, I realized that unless I changed, it would drive my wife crazy because she would be with me all the time.
Most important - my relationship with my W.
Much less important - getting THINGS done. THINGS can wait, the love of my life's feelings cannot wait.

We have an RV also. Ours is a smaller trailer we pull behind our pickup truck. We like to boondock, so I have wired it for solar panels and we have 4 lithium batteries that will power us for 4 - 5 days even if the days are cloudy. I laughed when you described your conversation with H about choosing new batteries. We discuss these kinds of things because we follow the policy of joint agreement. I don't want to bore her, so I put it In simpler terms and tell her what I think we should do. She asks questions that shows she understands my concerns and then agrees or disagrees. I want her to understand that her opinions are valuable. She wants me to know that she cares enough to listen and understand. We are a team. Creating a stronger bond. I feel closer to her, she feels closer to me.

There are some problems with the yard and the house that will have to wait. I'll get to most of it eventually. Sure, THINGS have to be taken care of. We have to pay the bills and so on, but our hearts are attached to each other, not things, tasks, hobbies, other people.

Here is something I have just realized... learned from thinking through writing my posts here on MB.

My main hobby these days is helping my wife be happy. Everything else comes after that. Well, I suppose serving God and my fellow men are right there with making her happy. After all, God expects me to take proper care of her, and she expects me to serve God with all my heart. These are so entwined it's hard to separate them. This is something I just realized these last few weeks.

We still do recreational things, don't get me wrong. We do things with friends, and children, and grandchildren. The difference is, I am asking myself "how will this strengthen our marriage, and help her be happier?" I have noticed that the more I give to her, the more she gives to me. I love my hobby.

Is it from following Dr. Harley's plan? Mostly. I freely admit it's easier to meet needs when you are in love.

DOES YOUR HUSBAND KNOW HOW YOU FEEL?
If he does not know how you feel, your next assignment is to find a way to communicate with him about these feelings. He cannot help you unless he knows.

Note: there are better/worse ways of discussing this. We can talk more about it. Don't stress over it. You may be obsessive/compulsive too, but this does not have to be discussed today. Or even tomorrow. Not until you WE have worked out the best way to do it and you are comfortable with it.

He is wrapped up in his own struggles, but him helping you will change his focus and get his mind on something besides his pain. It will be good for him.

Do you have any worries about your preparations for your trip?
Worries about marriage building while on your trip.
Any reservations about going?

Do you like ice cream?
Sorry, just had to throw that in. Sometimes we get too serious here. Had to lighten it up a little bit.

Please understand that there are reasons why I ask things the way that I do. I'm not trying to be judgmental or say you are doing things right or doing things wrong. The goal is to let these things work in your subconscious mind, so that your mind will find solutions. You are a smart person, things will come to you over time after you read through this. By now, I have a great deal of faith in YOU.
SS

Hi CS,
I would guess most of your efforts these next few days will be spent making sure you are ready for your trip. Hope it goes well for both of you.

May God bless and take care of you, and bring you safely home when you are finished. May he help you sleep so that you will be able to do what is needed.

In Alabama my good friends say "Y'all come back now."
In the west many of us say "happy trails."

SS

I didn't plan on posting again before you left, but this kept coming to my mind, so I typed it out.



I sense you don't feel very comfortable bringing this up to him. He doesn't hurt you on purpose. It's already been difficult getting this far. It feels like you are wondering if you ought to put these things on hold or at least slow down a little bit. . (If I am wrong, please comment, but you can leave it until you come back home.)

Here is a link to an article written by Steve Harley. (Click on the word article)
Steve is Dr. Harley's son, who also happens to do marriage counseling.
Steve does a good job explaining how getting hurt by accident still hurts. I don't suggest you quote this verbatim.
You may be able to adapt it though.

You'll have some time to think about it.
Bon Voyage

So, it looks like this forum is pretty much dead. Are there other ones you would recommend to discuss this stuff?

I will write to Dr. Harley and ask him to delete the forum or at the very least to quit advertizing it on the radio when you get very few responses.

I will say that, rom my point of view, the problem is not this forum, it is you. I don't think you can tell Dr Harley how to run his forum. He has created it for those who wish to make use of it.

I recognised you from the first post here. You invent a new name, change or hide some of your history, get very detailed help and when you think you can't use it and nobody understands you, you stop posting. Several people, including still seeking, have given a great deal of time to counsel you and you more or less brush them off.

Here is a recent thread of yours: https://www.talkaboutmarriage.com/t...58/page-2?post_id=20938614#post-20938614

and you posted for months on another site, with the same hopelessness and then disappeared.

Is anything I said in the above post actually untrue? If so, what?