Wesse,<P>An excellent post and very good advice. Unfortunately, Essyboo does not seem to be craving that. Somehow she wants H to feel her pain and he cannot. She cannot feel his either. Demystifying the affair is an excellent idea. <P>She wants something from him that after 18 months he apparently cannot give. Yet, from her earlier posts, it sounded like they had discussed the affair at length, gone to counseling, and taken other steps to repair the marriage. Yet something is missing. It seems to me she wants him to be a person he cannot be and she cannot get around that.<P>I don't know, I guess somethings the person themselves has to get around. Once that starts the other individual can then help but they cannot initiate the healing.<P>What a mess.

Actually, things were better earlier in our recovery than they are now.<P>Initially he allowed me to feel the way I felt and waited for me to get over it, now I think he has decided I have had enough time and is starting to pressure me. He has said things like "you obviously don't want it to work or you would have gotten over it by now." That hurts and makes me worry that if I stay in the marriage things won't be any better.<P>What is the time limit? What is the magic number? He doesn't understand that his reaction to me still having pain is just causing me more pain. At first the pain wasn't causing me to want to end the marriage, but his reaction to it is making it hard for me to hand my heart back to him.<P>I realize I haven't handled this well. I would like to be stronger and more forgiving, but I'm scared.<P>I don't want him to feel pain, I want him to acknowledge it. I want him to understand me and give me some credit for having tried this long. I want him to think that I was strong for staying instead of always saying I was just too weak to leave.<P>I want just a little of my dignity back. I failed at our marriage, I know that. I feel that I blame him more than me. I also get defensive about it because he actually did the betraying. Now he is making me feel that I have failed at the recovery and again I get defensive. I don't want to be the one that is at fault for ruining this marriage.<P>I am angry at myself for my bitterness and resentment. I want to find out what I did wrong that I still feel this way. I want to love him and have our marriage work, but he keeps telling me that I was too weak to leave so I find myself wanting to prove to him that I am strong and the way he has given me to prove that is to leave.<P>He has never acted too impressed by the efforts I have put into this, yet he says over and over that he doesn't need help.<P>I just want to be strong for once in my life.<P>Just Learning, I find myself wanting to be angry at you, but I know that is not what you are trying to do. I was just about convinced that my H had signed on and was writing back to me.<P>I don't want to be vindictive. If crying every night is what I need then hold me while I cry, don't get mad and start thinking that I must have given up if after 18 months I still feel like crying.

Essyboo,<BR> I don't have any advice for you, but just wanted to let you know that I'm going through pretty much the same thing that you are.

My H and had a talk tonight. He apoligized for being so angry at me lately. I apologized for giving up for a while.<P>I don't want to come across as being so unforgiving, but I realize I have been, am, whatever.<P>We discussed why my H can't seem to separate the emotions of pain and anger. He admitted that he can't or has trouble with it. He gets mad at himself for feeling pain, especially since he is the cause of it in himself and me.<P>We talked a lot of things out and I realize I was ignoring things that were there already and seeing negative things he didn't mean or think.<P>We go to counselling tomorrow. Hopefully we can work through these emotions and find the true emotions and sources for them.<P>He did tell me that he was so sure I would leave when I found out (remember I wanted out and he knew this) that he had every barrier up that he could muster. He was completely prepared for me to leave and had armed himself appropriately. When I didn't leave he felt such overwhelming relief that it masked his pain and gave him an outlet for emotion. I perceived it as "being able to just go on".<P>Now when I get down, he prepares himself again for me leaving and so the barrier goes back up.<P>I am going to concentrate on not wallowing in self-pitty. Just Learning, your words have not gone unheeded, (maybe just a little resented) (since I don't know how to insert those little smiley faces I will just say SMILEY FACE)<P>I just with we didn't have to go through all the fighting before we start talking.<P>I screwed up here. I have been selfish and blind and definitely unforgiving. He did give some insight to his affair tonight that I didn't have before. It made him sound even more cold and calculating that I thought, but I understood it (maybe because the selfishness was actually directed at the other woman). He explained to me what the affair was to him and what she was to him. He told me the things she did not give him and the things he had to do to get what he wanted from her. They didn't hurt me, because I allowed myself to see him hurt. Don't take that as selfish, I know this isn't a matter of me hurting or him hurting. I realized I hurt for him, not myself.<P>You see, I think he came close to giving me part of what I was missing. He opened his soul for me just a little. He basically said "Look, here is some ammunition for you to hurt me with, use it as you like" and I realized I didn't want to use it, I wanted to get rid of it for him.<P>I hope the Lord will give me the strength to never use it on him. <P>

Essyboo,<P>First the important part. You make smiley faces by typing a colon and a right parenthesis .<P>Next I was not trying to make you made, but I was trying to get to see how your H might view this situation. In someways not too different than I might. IT IS A GUY THING . It is not right or wrong. You do now see that he did expect you to leave as I suggested. It is hard to invest when you think that is going on. <P>In any event it sounds like you are making progress and your H will talk to you. That is very good. As many have said forgiving is not the same as forgetting, but please look at this as you and H are on the same side. It sounds as if he wants to save marriage as much as you do. You'all just come at it differently. Nothing new there. <P>Sorry to make you angry, but I did want you to think about this from a different point of view. After all WE AIM TO PLEASE MA'AM <P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>

Okay Just Learning.<P>I could have figured out the , although I hadn't, but how do you insert the little pictures?<P>I'm not angry at you. Like I told my H who read some of my posts and got angry over them. I didn't post my feelings to get followers or congratulations. I posted my feeling because I knew they are wrong and needed to hear it from someone in the same boat.

Okay, Okay, I'm slower than I thought. You sounded so much like my H I just assumed you were being smarl alek.<P>So let me play a little<P> <BR> <BR>:0<P>THIS IS A TEST

Essyboo,<P>I believe if you go to the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) icon on the main menu, they explain how to do all of them. However, I out smarted them, I only smile . It makes life a lot easier and memory is not as challenged.<P>Good Luck Essyboo!

Thank you Just Learning.<P>I'm going to bed now, even though it is really early.<P>We are going to counselling for the first time (Yea I know we should have a long time ago) We had a hard time finding someone who would work around our schedule who also shared our religious views. To be honest, we couldn't find anyone or atleast anyone we felt we could afford. The list of excuses went on and on.<P>My boss actually got me moving. He is an attorney and was telling me we needed a new Will. We hadn't updated ours in a long time and we were having trouble deciding on a guardian for our children.<P>My boss said, "Don't let that one decision keep you from making any decision. You can always change the guardian".<P>I realized we were not seeing a counceller because we couldn't find the "perfect" one. We went through our insurance, found one near my office that had enough flixability to see us around my H work schedule, and I had made an appointment within 2 weeks of finally setting my mind to it. If we run into trouble we can always change, but looking for 18 months (On and off) and making excuses because of the money, wasn't getting us anywhere.<P>I'll keep you posted as to how it goes.<BR>

Before I go there is one more thing I have to post.<P>This is the Post of an Obsessive Compulsive that just learned some new tricks!!!<P>I as I realize how good I can feel if I let myself.<P>I as I think about the past week and how much love I could have shown if I had allowed myself.<P>I feel that it took men (sorry Just Learning) to convince me of this, the other is my H. <P> as I admit that men do have a place in a woman's world and I sure wish my man wasn't working tonight . I'm going to bed.<p>[This message has been edited by Essyboo (edited November 18, 1999).]

I am so glad that you are going to counseling. In your job, you may have the opportunity to see how destructive divorce can be. <P>Right or wrong, you are not alone in the feelings you have. I share them from time to time although I understand my H is doing the best he can to help.<P>Please let us hear if counseling helps!

I am really nervous about today. I think my H is to, but being nervous is not something he admits to very often.<P>I kind of wonder if this apprehension has been part of our problem the past week.<P>I have no idea what to expect and have made myself not even think about it because I feel I will do better if I just let it take the course it is supposed to take.<P>

One good thing about counselling for me was that the counsellor (after first developing a relationship where my H respected and trusted her opinions) made him face truths including: <P>their relationship was pure fantasy and doomed to disaster when all the practical matters like public reaction, children, financial obligations, meeting each other's needs for something besides blanket adoration, etc. had to be faced. <P>He was in love, not with ow, but with a creature of his imagination. He laid out what he wanted the perfect lover to be and she became that person. <P>He was not the perfect man. The counsellor helped him acknowledge that was far from true. (Look at what he was doing to ow and to me.) <P>She helped him recognize his failure to cherish and protect me - that if I had not been the perfect wife, at least part of that was because he had not treated me like the perfect wife deserves to be treated.<P>She helped him see that the negative ideas he had about me and our marriage had become exagerated in his mind during his affair. No real wife can compete with a fantasy woman.<P>There's lots a counsellor can do to bring him back in to the real world if he will let her. <P>Take heart. You've not much to lose and lots to hope for.

He is convinced he already knows these things. I'm afraid he is going into this thinking he is already fixed.<P>All that really doesn't matter. I am going to counseling with the idea of fixing me and us not him. I have a lot of issues that I am having trouble dealing with. I have an eating disorder and I'm drinking too much. Those are the things I need to face. <P>It does no good for me to go to a counseler about my H's spiritual wellbeing, or his depression and drinking, he has to do that, not me. I can go to God about that and I am working on that.<P>In a lot of ways I am very lucky. He atleast says that the entire affair was stupid, fake, a lie on both their parts. He never even considered it anything permanent and knew she didn't either. <P>I feel the threat, atleast from that woman is over and he is over her. I feel he is having trouble coming to grips with the person he became in order to do what he did.<P>I hope is able to seek help and accept help in those areas, but I cannot go into counseling with that in mind. Hopefully the counselor will help me be more help to him.