New_B,<P>I have just been catching up with your thread and read about your H and his unwillingness to seek counceling. But sure seems that you two have a considerable amount of love for each other.<P>I don't know why but somehow it seems to me that it is IMPORTANT that you read a thread on this site NOW!!! It is by a woman named "Francis" and she has been posting on the "Why Women Leave Men" forum. Please go look up all of her posts and read them. If your H will read them have him do so as well. <P>Her story is different in some ways from yours but it really illustrates what the correct kind of counceling can do. She has only posted on that forum so you can find all of her posts. <P>PLEASE GO READ IT !!!! Somehow, there is something in there for you and your H. I just don't know what it is, but I have a very strong feeling something about her story is very important to you and H. Let me know when you have read it.<P>Good Luck and God Bless You and Your Family<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 22, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 22, 1999).]

New Beginning: Thank you for your sincerity. I am so glad that someone has finally come out and brought to the attention of all here that the Harley principals do not work for everyone! It takes two people to work on a marriage. Not one poor person knocking themselves out, grasping for a shred of hope, putting up with all the nonsense that their spouse is putting them through. Yes, they/we are being emotionally abused!!! I encourage everyone to do some reading on the topic.<P>One evening I read your post where you said that your doctor asked you what you wanted and you said...OUT! I was astonished at some of the responses you received. Here you are very ill, and we know what added stress can do to a person, and you were being encouraged to "hang on"...keep working on your marriage, that "you don't know what tomorrow might bring". It was truly pitiful! I could not believe what I was reading!!! I actually felt nauseous reading that so called "support". My heart went out to you.<P>You are one classy lady! Your posts have always been sincere, well written, and intelligent. It would be in the other's best interest to read some of your past posts, they could learn something from you.<P>Wishing you all the best. Take good care of yourself...Desperado

I am moved beyond words at some of the responses I'm getting, and I just wanted you all to know that I am listening, digesting, and hopefully rebuilding <B>at least</B> MY life, if not the marriage. <P>A quick word to <B>Desperado</B>... you are, as so many have been, much too kind to me. I have to tell you, that illness <B>opened my eyes</B> in a way that nothing else has before. I am a bit obsessive about my health (okay, I'm a hypochondric ) and this pain was SO REAL, and the doctors were SO CONCERNED, and that hasn't happened since my son with disabilities was born. That kind of concern scared me so much, and I honestly thought I might have cancer. It was the WORST. I know that several here said to "hang in there" and they meant that in the nicest way, of that I am sure. Just like when you nervously try to give sympathy when a loved one dies, it is awkward sometimes to find the right words. I know I have sometimes struggled with the fine line between fighting for that which you believe (and let's face it, here in MB-land that is your marriage) and fighting for your sanity and health. Seems that when things are really at their worst, never the twain shall meet!! Again, thank you for your glowing words.<P>~Sheryl<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Desparado,<BR>I am one who said to hang in there. I did not say to hang in there because the Harley principles don't work. I said hang in there because I do as God says to do: spread His word. I was appealing to that part of us all that needs to be nurtured: our spirit. When we nurture our spirit then we seek to be one with God who hates divorce. True HAPPINESS resides in Him only. If we try to find it outside of Him we will always find that we will be critical and want to blame the other person for our unhappiness when the source of our unhappiness is that we do not have the relationship He desires us to have with Him because of our disobedience. He will not force us to do His will. He wants us to love Him the way that we love our human parents.<P>When we think of self ONLY then we have our focus on ourselves rather than on Him. That is where we make our error: we have madde ourselves the most important thing. To truly make ourselves the most important thing we have to put ALL others (enemies included) before ourselves. Now if the unbeliever chooses to leave then that falls on the unbeliever.<P>Yet, love must be tough as defined by James Dobson. It means doing those things covered in either Plan A or B. No, God does not want us to be doormats but He expects us to act as Jesus did. He did not attempt to get retribution when He was here on earth. That time will come when the Father exacts His wrath on those who continue to disobey. I am letting my W do whatever she thinks is necessary. I know that if I treat her with the loving kindness that God has taught me that she will either be won to Him and thus me or she will run and be miserable when she finally understands. The loving kindness is like heaping hot coals on her head.<P>I hope that I didn't come across to strong because this is something that I am very passionate about. Please forgive me if I chose the wrong words to express my passion.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

If you've been keeping up with this, you'll know that my H has been waiting for "God to decide" if we should be together. The latest thing he has been "waiting" on is whether or not he gets a certain apartment. So, here's the thing, he didn't get the apartment, and now the managers don't want to give his money back either... LONG STORY... so... my H believes that <B>GOD said no</B>. So what do you guys think of that???<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,<P>I was barely on yesterday, so Imissed alot of this and am just catching up. Not sure what the loast post meant, either.<P>All I know is this: 2 people already posted these thing, and I agree:<P>1) please stay with us, no matter how your own situation works out, if it is not too painful for you to do so, because you do offer sound advice and have a wonderful sense of humor that just keeps some of us going (ME!) One truism of life is that NO ONE can see themselves and their situation as well as an outsider looking in. Don't feel like you have nothing to offer, even if you and your H decide to not go on.<P>2)You have been through an awful lot emotionally, physically and spiritually. No matter what you and your H decide about your marriage, you 2 have both got to find a way to give this "trying" a rest and be better to yourselves. I wish I knew how to tell you to do that, I don't. Just backing off and "letting live" for a little while can only do you good.<P>I am SOOOOOOOO HAPPPPPPPY to see you here!!!!!<P>Desiree

Sheryl,<P>Have you read "Francis" postings yet. Please read that whole thing. I just feel there some things in her story and struggles that you and your H need to see. <P>Just Learning

Just Learning, Yes! I couldn't remember where you wrote that suggestion, so couldn't go back and tell you. I didn't write back to her because she is so happy right now and I didn't want to drag her down. But yes, I took what you said and followed it!!!<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,<P>My message was on this thread. Did you read the entire story from beginning to end? Was there something in there? I am very curious because for some reason it seemed that you and H needed to see her full story.<P>God Bless

Dear New Beginning:<BR>I must say that I have to agree with what you wrote. I was not offended at all. If anything, I thought what you wrote was very honest and from the heart. I wish you all the luck in the world. At least you have tried in your marriage and that is one thing you can say. Your title is a good one and will be a new beginning along with the new year. I haven't been on for awhile...probably because of the same things you had said in your post. It's only a matter of time for me. I really don't know when. But, I guess I will know when that time is here. I know for now, I am not going anywhere. Good luck to you.

Thank you Katya, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with "will this last" also...icky!!<P>Just Learning,<P>Color me embarrassed, I just haven't gone all the way back through this thread, and so didn't realize your request was right here under my nose. Duh!! Yes, the stories are similiar... but her recovery seems much quicker. Am I wrong?? My H is so sick to death of everything that I don't think it would matter much for him to read it, if you want my honest opinion. But I will talk to him about it. <P>My H is, right at this moment, in a doctor's appointment for something that's been bothering him for some time - could be serious! If anyone is sticking with this thread to this point (God love you) please pray for him!! <P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

NB, I'm here and following every step of the way, even though I'm not saying much (pretty good for me, huh?)<P>You have my prayers. For you and for H.<P>Luv ya,<P>Lori

Hi NB -<P>I'm here following also....<P>I prayed about the apartment but not the money thing...Hmmm - wonder where that part fits in?<P>Your and H's healh have been and will continue to be in my prayers.<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hey girls, thanks... guess I should begin another thread, but am lazy today...<P>H just called, went to the doctor for his problem, or rather, I should say he was suppose to go... it's potentially very serious, he's held off, then skipped the last appt. and now the doctor was out ill today, so he still hasn't found out what's wrong. He never called me, I have been worried all afternoon, had to call his job and have them track him down. He never intended on calling me. I could smack him right now. Also, had ne not been so non-committal about the apartment... well, he would have gotten his money back or be living there right now. I have a part in that too because I couldn't push him out (or kick him out, depending on how you look at it). It's the never-ending saga of us. Honest to god, I just want out. And here it is holiday time... I'm just sick of it. Please don't hate me...<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

New_B,<P>It was not the speed that I think may be important but the process. It turned out that there were many other problems in their life and they were getting in the way of their love for each other. The problems were addressed and the love they had came back to the surface.<P>You and H obviously still love each other. How much stuff is it buried under?? Children, Children with special needs, jobs, baggage from youth, etc. The counceling they received individually allowed both to see things they had not appreciated.<P>I guess the most obvious was that they were not really seeing the other person, but who they had assumed the other person had become (good and bad). <P>Somehow, in all of these months and all of the trials, I guess I see you and H as in the same situation. You both love each other, but there is so much stuff to get through. Even the financial problems existed in their case. <P>Oh Well, I just had a feeling that there things in there that may resonate with you two. Maybe your H will see whatever message there is in her story that is important.<P>In any event Sheryl, hang in. Not just the marriage but personally. You and H seem like good people and I guess that is why all posting here are still rooting for you.<P>God Bless You and Your H

My interpretation of Harley's concept of "total honesty" is different than yours. <BR>If you really believe in totally honesty, you would have, and should have, discussed your plan to engage in the EA with your spouse, who would, I'm sure, enthusiastically disagreed with it. Consequently, you would never get to the point of knowing how large (or small) the OP's body parts are. Right?<BR>So total honesty, coupled with the Policy of Joint Agreement, are really the way in which a couple stays out infidelity.<BR>I'm sorry that you and your spouse are giving up because you had to know such details. It sounds like both of you have a good foundation and perhaps you should reconsider and start thinking about the "big" picture rather than the size of body parts.<BR>

Persistant,<P>If you take the time to read this (sorry in advance, especailly since it is at the end of a very long thread)... I will try to attempt to answer your response...<P>I believe in honesty, and will even go so far as to say that I have been faulted my entire life for being "too honest". I did tell my H when I was "thinking" of the OM in a way that scared me. He asked me what he needed to do, and I said I didn't know. Thing is, by the time the OM was in the picture, my H and I had been drifting apart for months, if not years. I had told him two months before that I was falling out of love with him, that I wanted a <blech> soul mate and he wasn't it, that I needed to feel loved, and wasn't getting that from him. He will agree with all of this, believe me. He works too much to avoid problems in the relationship, and I nag at him to stay home, be with me.... both lovebusters in their own way.<P>He didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to tell him to do, because by that time I was lost anyway. Does that make sense?<P>Although, you make a <B>VERY</B> valid point, in theory, and if both partners agree <B>before</B>the problems ever surface, I agree wholeheartidly.<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!