Stuborn,<P>I know that you don't like being quoted back to. Please be assured that I'm only doing so in an effort to be clear as to what I'm responding to.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stubborn:<BR><B>Personally I feel I had to do what I did because I saw a pattern coming that I wanted to stop right away. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>You need to realize that there are appropriate ways to handle people who annoy you on these boards. The first is to ignore them. The second is to contact the topic's moderator if you think real harm is being done. (which is what I have done with regards to your attack of Younglove) Dialogue is one thing, attacking the poster is rarely profitable.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stubborn:<BR><B>I hope that in the future such things will not repeat themselves.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope you were refering to your outburst.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stubborn:<BR><B>As for me I have made a decision to answer ONLY to people who are serious about helping and not all out for a good tug of war with who's right or wrong. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sound advice. I hope you follow through on this!<P>Lostsoul....is that you??<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mudder (edited April 13, 2000).]

Mudder,<BR>Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. I hope others will learn from it too.<BR>Stubborn

Stubborn-<P>Why is it that you think, if I'm quoting your posts, that it must be to harm you? Perhaps I have a different idea of the purpose of quoting - I spend most of my time on the EN board and there, it seems there are more posts with quotes than without. This is not to spite or "get" the poster! I quoted you so that it would be clear to whom, and to which portion of your post, I was responding. I quoted for no other reason than clarity.<P>As for you not wanting me to start bickering about right and wrong, if you reread my post immediately before your attack it should be crystal clear my intent was to not bicker. I stated explicitly that I feel you are entitled and welcome to share your opinions, but I ask that the same courtesy be extended to me. However, just because I respect your right to your opinions does not mean I have to agree with them. Yes, you posted twice that you didn't think your suggestion involved deceit, so I pointed out twice that I think it does. Why is it "wrong" for me to clarify my position but not "wrong" for you to do the same? Both of us stuck to our guns regarding what we believe... which by itself is a good thing. However, I did my best to make it clear I respected your opinion anyway, and, well, I think you also made clear what you think of my opinion, but it was not done respectfully.<BR> <BR>I also disagree with you that focusing on the issues underlying the thread (i.e. trust and deceit in dealing with ex's) is somehow sidetracking the forum. If all we could ever do was discuss specific situations, and not extrapolate from them, of what use to the rest of us would this board be? I believe the whole point is to read about specific situations, learn what that says about relationships as a whole, and apply it in our own lives. That's not parliamentary debate - it's helping each other to learn. (if you are lostsoul, and I suspect you are, please note there is a significant difference between learning from situations which apply to your own relationships and inventing hypothetical situations which are not currently relevant to you at all).<P>I had no idea you were upset by others quoting you, as I indicated there are parts of the forum where this is done regularly and I had no way of knowing it would offend you. I would have greatly preferred it if you simply informed me of your preference not to be quoted. <P>As for Demeter's comments, I would like to point out that those were made AFTER your attack on me, and I wholeheartedly agree that at that point there was animosity in the air! I also agree with Demeter that there's no need to argue on the forum - but if you agreed as well, why post such a vicious diatribe? Surely not in the spirit of not arguing!<P>You end your post by saying it's okay with you if I respond from now on as long as I do it in a "proper way". (in quotes not to spite but to indicate that I feel this is a misrepresentation of my posts). I don't feel I have ever posted anything in an improper way and thus won't change the way I post. Also, because I have reason to believe the community as a whole does not agree with you that I have been improper, I will not leave the forum. I find many of the people here to be incredibly warm and helpful, and hope that occasionally I will have some insight which will prove useful to others - not that all will agree with it, but that most will respect my right to believe it and post it.

Younglove,<BR>No I am not lostsoul. I have seen postings from this person in the past but am not him/her.<P>Now I understand why Mudder asked if it was lost soul.<P>I never intended for you to leave the post and I think with regards to you quoting now I understand why you did that. That is what I took for attack.<P>Now that you have explained yourself I understand and will not ask you to change the way you reply to postings.<P>I guess here I owe you an apology and will give it to you wholeheartedly.<P>

Mudder!!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lostsoul....is that you??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tsk tsk tsk... Do you remember that Lostsoul originally showed up here as "whoami"?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stubborn to Younglove:<B>I guess here I owe you an apology and will give it to you wholeheartedly.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Based on these words I'm convinced this could in no way be my buddy Lostsoul.<P>I feel warm all over now that we are all friends again. Don't you?<P>

Mudder <BR>Who is Lostsoul anyway? Can you fill me in please?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stubborn:<BR><B>Mudder <BR>Who is Lostsoul anyway? Can you fill me in please?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you go to this link you will see my buddy in his full glory. Actually now I'm a little embarassed that I thought you might be him. Please don't hold it a gainst me!<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/000036.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum4/HTML/000036.html</A> <BR>

Younglove,<P> Well, my worst nightmare came true on Wednesday night. My GF called and confirmed that she was already seeing this OP. She say she left me b/c she could not see herself marrying me but I cannot believe that. She says she still loves me but I cannot believe that either. <P> If that were the case then she would be single now or we would still be togehter. Anyhow, at least now I know for sure and there is no more doubt as to whether or not there will be a reconciliation. Hope you reply to this and tell me what you think.

Tom,<P>I am sorry I am not Younglove, but I would like to add that I don't think your GF is lying about her love for you. Remember that emotion is not a light switch - you can't just turn it on and off as you wish. Otherwise, we won't be here suffering from the way we feel! Similarly, your GF couldn't possibly fall out of love with you so quickly (unless she has been for a while already). She may just be very confused about what and how she feels. I think if you two were married, this will be considered an affair. From reading the many posts here, it is clear to me that some people fell into the trap not because they fell out of love with their spouse but because they were confused! In my opinion, if you really want to move on from this, try not to let what she says bother you. It's hard, I know. I am in the same boat as you. But try anyuway....nothing good in life every comes easy! Best of luck!

<BR>It's ok that you are not younglove. The reason I wrote to her is b/c she has written from the very beginning and sort of knows the whold story. It is true that nothing good in life ever comes easily. You are also correct in thinking that if we were married this would be an affair. I think that b/c this thing with the OP went on while we were still together (for about 4 weeks).<P> I found out about it b/c I had the password to her e-mail account and read what they were writing to each other. My punishment for that is just knowing what was written. It is 10X worse than anything that could be done to me and still haunts me. <P> At this point I thik it is too late to go back. So many things have been said on both sides that I would not even know where to begin rebuilding our relationship and the trust that we once had for each ohter. I betrayed her trust be reading her emails and she betrayed my trust by having an emotional affair witht his OP that has now turned into dating. <P>What happened in your relationship? I am curious to knon and might have some insights.<P>Thanks,<P>Tom<BR>

Hi folks,<P>Just checking in again.....<P>I hope the animosity has been cleared from the air and we can all try to communicate as well and as "friendily" as the medium allows - remember - it's hard to convey emotions easily on a forum from hundreds or thousands of miles away.<P>Also remember to think twice before hitting that "Submit Reply" button - it's easy to say things in the heat of the moment, and we all need as meny friends as possible!<P>It is possible to go back and edit old posts if we inadvertantly over-reacted to something - that with a kind word to someone who may have taken offense, or been chided hastily will mend a lot of hurt.<P>Ericstm is hurting out there - along with a lot of us - let's try to keep in mind that "side" arguments do not help hurting people out.<P>Go in peace...<P><P>------------------<BR>Valiant, Moderator<BR>Marriage Builders Forum

stubborn - it takes a big person to offer an apology, so I was wrong about you, and for that I am the one who is sorry. Your apology is accepted, no hard feelings.<P>ericstm-<P>(((((((tom)))))))<P>I'm so sorry to hear about last night. Right now, I know, it hurts terribly, but it will get better! Demeter has a good point - emotions aren't like light switches. Have you read Give and Take? I think that's where the Harleymeister talks about there being two different kinds of love. The Love Bank concept relates to all kinds of feelings about all kinds of people, but romantic love is sort of a threshold above which Love is felt. Below that threshold, there's caring love, but no Love. So, if your ex-GF's love bank is below that threshold, she does feel something for you, but it's caring love instead of romantic love. If you and she gave it another chance, and you had the opportunity to build up her love bank beyond the threshold, she would feel romantic love for you again - as you would for her if she got your love bank balance above that threshold. One of the best things about this website, for me, has been it's demystification of love as this ephemeral, often fleeting feeling. It helps to think of it in less abstract terms.<P>But... she did have an EA. If it's any consolation, the success rate of relationships that start as EA's or PA's is even more dismal than for that of "regular" relationships. In a marriage, I think there is no point of no return because of the vow always to return - but without those vows to force a couple to keep trying, I agree, there is a point after which there is no going back, and... I agree that the line is behind you.<P>Take this as a source of strength, my friend! Make May the Month of Tom. (sounds cheesy, but if you think it in your head and don't tell anyone, it actually helps...) Pick four things you've always wanted to do and do one each week. Or, pick two goals you want to reach and go for them! Keep posting and reading and when you find someone else special, you'll be able to build something really lasting.

Tom,<P>You can find my story at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000066.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000066.html</A> <P>Here is the follow up to that (you may want to read the other thread before reading the following):<P>We decided to get back together after he visited me over the Valentine's weekend. Here is the problem: After being cheated on twice, I just couldn't trust him anymore. I wanted to, but I simply couldn't. Well, I snooped behind his back and later confronted him with some minor issues. I basically wanted to know why some of his female friends did not know that he was dating me very seriously. He never answered my question but instead accused me of snooping behind his back. I admitted to him that yes, I did it, but only because I couldn't trust his words. He thought I went too far, so he broke up with me....there's more to that story, but I can't post it all. <P>I just want you to keep in mind that you are reading my side of the story. Naturally, you are not getting the whole picture this way. So please, when you reply to the post, don't write any judgemental statements about him based on what I had said. It simply won't be fair. Thanks.

Tom,<P>Here is something that has helped me this past week to cope with things. I am SOOOO MUCH happier now than I ever had been since the breakup. I became a different person - literally! I went out and did many things I have never considered doing by myself. As the result of that, I met a lot of people and am now hooked up with a whole bunch of people for a lot of activities for the months to come. I even went as far as dressing a little differently too. I must admit it was really scary to take that first step. In fact, I almost chickened out of my original plan! But, I stucked with it, and now it's paying dividend! Hurray for me. I haven't shed any tears in a week, and I have been smiling more and more everyday! Less of my life reminds me of him now! Even those things that do remind me of him, the reminders are not as painful anymore!

Demeter,<BR> I just wanted to say sorry for not writing back sooner. I sit infront of a computer screen all week so I try to avoid it on the weekends. That being said, here is what I think about your situaion.<BR> <BR> You are more forgiving than I am or would have been. But at the same time I can understand why you gave him so many chances. When you have been with a person for so long and really feel they are the right individual for you it is hard to just walk away after all the history that has been shared - even if that is the best thing to do. I know I should have walked away sooner and by staying I hurt myself much more than if I had just left.<P> As far as his cheating goes. I cannot really say what type of behavioral changes you could look for that would let you know he was serious this time. I myself have never been one to stray even when my ex-GF and I were separated for over 2 yrs. We were only able to see each other once every 6 months or so and able to speak on the phone about once a month. So, I think his excuse that he needed companionship and that you were not able to meet his needs b/c you were not there next to him is weak. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!!<P> It sounds like you thought that he was the right guy for you but it does not sound like he had those same feelings for you. I'm sure that he loved you deeply. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh - I don't mean it to be. I am in the same boat as you and have still not really been able to admit to myself that my ex-GF didn't love me as much as I loved her. I have, however, come to terms with the fact the at we are not right for each other (for now anyway).<P> The person that you end up spending the rest of your life with should have eyes only for you. Infidelity is a terrible thing and causes so much hurt. The worst thing about it though is the loss of trust between people. Once the trust is gone things are said and done that cause the situation to worsen. I lost trust in my ex and that caused me to read her emails thereby betraying her trust in me. It caused you to "snoop." <P> I am not one to say if that was right or wrong we both did what we felt like was the right thing to do at the time. But do you see what I am saying. Once the trust is gone it is so much harder to rebuild a relationship. <P> It sounds as if you are doing much better from your last post and for that I am glad. I have started to head out with friends myself again and I also think less of her. I have decided that I do not want any contact with her now and in the future. I simply cannot heal with her there. I do not know what kind of situation you and your BF have come up with but I wish you the best. Remember, he is the the one that lost.<P>

Tom,<P>He never made up any excuses as to why he cheated. In fact, he admitted that it was completely his fault that he let things happened. The part where I mentioned about companionship is actually what I thought of the situation. I don't think it's either of our faults that we were not able to be live near each other. But thanks for your sympathy.<P>As for his feelings about whether I am the one for him or not, I am started to feel that that's probably the cause of our problems. I don't think he lied about his feelings for me. I know he loved me dearly, and he probably genuinely thought that I was the one with whom he wants to spend the rest of his life. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done the many special things he did for me. The key is, he thought I was the one but then realized I probably wasn't the one....That's why I think he doesn't want to work things out. It's not worth it, in his mind (that's what I think).<P>Well, the last I heard, he went out with his volleyball buddy (female) to some fair. I guess he is moving on with his life, and for that I am truly happy for him. Truth of the matter is, I still care about him. Knowing that he is happy makes me happy too!<P>Oh yes, there's no doubt in my mind that this breakup is his lost. That's what helps me cope for the most part. We still keep in touch. In fact, he called me last night, and I got an email from him today as well. I don't mind being friends. I think we are better off as friends anyway! I notice I am not upset or sad about the breakup anymore. I think I have finally come to term with the situation. Believing that this is his lost is the best remedy I have found for myself!<P>Take care and best of luck with everything in your life!

Younglove,<P> Don't really know why I am writing. Maybe b/c of the last conversation my ex and I had. I guess it was last wednesday. It was the day she told me she was now seeing the OP. I was pretty upset and could not understand how she could hop out of our relationship into the other so fast. <P> I basically told her flat out to never call/write/email ever again. Did I over-react? I feel good about the decision b/c she really hurt me and all I wanted to do to her was cause her some of the pain she had made me feel. <P> Before, when we would argue about the situation I would sometimes say things in haste and later feel guilty and then apologize. I am not feeling that guilt now. And am I certainly not inclined to apologize for what I said. I really still feel like I mean what I said.<P> However, I still think about her all the time. Mostly about how things ended between us and why. There are no real answers and that makes it quiet frustrating. <P> I think she left me for the OP. She says she left me b/c she could not marry me. But there is no reason why she could not marry me - just a feeling. She has told her best friend that we would end up marrying but also said she was not ready yet.<P> I am thinking since she has only dated me and one other person seriously maybe she thinks that you need to date more to figure out what you want out of a person. I don't agree with that school of thought.

Hi Tom! <P>I'm glad you posted. It's always nice to hear from you and find out how things are with you. Sometimes the best thing about the forum is it lets people just vent without committing any Love Busters!<P>For what it's worth, my opinion is that you did not over-react by telling your ex-GF never to contact you again. It's how you felt at the time, it's how you've continued to feel (at least for a while) and have "felt good" about, and, it may be the healthiest thing to do... from what I've seen, it's very difficult at best to salvage any meaningful type of friendship from a long-term relationship, especially if it ends by the appearance of an OP. <P>However... if wanting to hurt her was the only reason you told her that, while that may not necessarily make it an overreaction it really isn't the best reason to cut all ties. It's just that, while you may never be "good" friends again, you don't have to cut her out of your life completely unless that's explicitly what she or you want, and if you do it for revenge it's possible you might lose out on a good "acquaintance-ship" (like a friendship but less deep).<P>If it doesn't make you feel guilty, you don't want to apologize, and you still mean it... I would try to put thoughts of "should I have said it" out of your mind. Second-guessing yourself will only make the healing process slower and harder. As adults both you and your GF know that people change their minds, and who knows? Maybe a year or two from now you or she will send the other a birthday card. It's not as though you cast the "no contact ever again" statement in stone.<P>I agree with you that the "need to date a whole bunch of people before I know who I want to marry" argument has serious flaws. Perhaps that's why she started seeing the OM, then again, perhaps there's a different reason entirely. It's only natural to still think about her all the time. I think it was Demeter who said emotions aren't like light switches (though sometimes, wouldn't it be easier if they were?) Especially when the explanation of "why/how/when did this happen?" is so unsatisfactory... people are (or try to be) rational creatures. We want things to make sense, and have an easier time accepting things when they do - consider the difference in mourning the death of a 90-year-old man versus that of a 4-year-old-girl. Both make us sad, but one doesn't fit into our rational scheme. We wish it "made sense".<P>It's hard to do when everything in both head and heart is on spin cycle... but it might help things make sense if you can separate what you think about the breakup to how you feel (and felt) about your ex-GF. What I mean is, it's normal to have mixed feelings about her - from anger and sadness to love. Her announcement last week that she'd begun dating the OP didn't change the fact that when you woke up that morning, you loved her. Emotions can't be shut off instantly. But the way you feel about her and the way you feel about the breakup don't make ending contact with her a bad thing. Even if you and she had agreed to keep in touch, these residual feelings would remain. They don't have to dictate your actions if you don't want them to, and in time they'll heal.<P>I'd better get to bed... I hope some of this helps!

Younglove,<P> I guess it has been about a week since I last posted. I am doing better with every day that goes by. Some are worse than others but I am not falling into deep depression and fits of anger anymore. I have been sort of ho-hum about everything lately though.<P> My ex is still the last person I think about when I close my eyes to sleep and the first person on my mind when I wake. During the day I have so many happy memories of her and I that just pop into me head continuously. <P> It is hard to think of her in those happy ways knowing what we are to each other now and the feelings I have about how she ended the relationship. Those memories are painful for me. Does that ever get better? I am still hoping that, one day, she will call or just show up and ask if we can start over. My love for her is still there and it still runs deep.