Doug, I don't mean to be rude at all here. But it's my assessment. And why is it that you only post where Maya is concerned? I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I only see you when Maya is mentioned. I honestly am not trying to cause trouble or problems, but just being honest. Or is honesty a problem here?

No problem at all, 'D'.

SHA,<P>Man the more I listen to you the more it sounds like what I have going on. I too think my wife uses me for certain parts of our marriage. She has no worries about money or any of the pressure that many people have. In fact maybe she has things too good.<P>Like you I have gotten tired of asking and getting rejected for sex. That has been a joke for the last year. I too have read more books talked to more counselers then anyone. She is still in couseling with me, which is different then your wife.<P>She like your wife has had an EA that she is now getting over. I thought we where on the right track 4 weeks ago. But like you she has seemed to go back more then anything. I am sure some of it is withdrawel from OM. Says I am a good person and sees the improvements in me. But can get that connection. I wish I had a magic pill for all of us. I read all these posts and it seems that some people are able to snap out of their feelings or ralley them if you will.<P>Hang tough SHA. I am trying and some days I really don't care what she does. I like you can get very upset and the the whole thought of marrying again given our kids. I guess in someways we need to be more selfish with want we want with life. I know I have not given 110% yet. When I know I have done that for an extened period of time. Then I will know it is time to go to plan B. Sounds like you have been at it for sometime. Maybe it is time to make a move for yourself. I know that my wife keeps bringing up how bad I was and puts me on the defensive. Take care dude and don't think that you are a bad person.<P><BR>

hi sha, i am so sorry to read of your troubles today. I know I am late, but puter does not always cooperate when I post. Now will copy before I send so I can quit retyping? Thanks sam-mi.<BR>Maybe your wife is in a holding pattern...sort of afraid to take a step in any direction? I will have to disagree with whoever thought she was comfortable where she is in the marriage. No healthy person can feel good sitting on a fence. The slivers gt in your butt after awile, and something has to be done about the festering mess. She is unsure how to proceed...lost but not trusting enough to follow your lead? Maybe she is realizing that she has made some bad decisions in the past and she does not trust herself anymore? Why is she not in counseling? <BR>If you can call Steve, it is a great idea. He has helped so many here. One call to him might prove better than months in therapy with another? <BR>All I can send you are hugs and prayers. <BR>(((sha)))

SHA, <P>Please, please tell us how it's going now... I so understand that fetal position...<P>Let us know!!!<P>~Sheryl<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

SHA,<BR>I have done it only by the grace of God. If it were not for Him comforting me at those low points I would not be with her. He sent me here to be helped by everyone here. He is a might great God. I am nothing without Him. I take none of the credit; it was Him directing my steps. To God be all teh glory, honor, and praise.<P>I pray a lot and read His word so that He can comfort me. I have become quite knowledgeable about what is in His word but haven't quite memorized where to find those comforting scriptures that get me over the lows that I go through. I have been reading the Bible through in a year. She purchased the My Utmost for His Highest devotional Bible that I have been reading. I see her as His gift. I have grown much closer to Him because of her. I will always cherish her whether she cherishes me or not.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Sir,<BR> Even though you may feel as if the relationship with your wife is cold, distant and hopeless, it really isn't. I want you to do something that, at first, may seem asinine or ridiculous to you; nevertheless, I know that your wife will respond favorably. First, take all of your focus off of yourself. You see, your wife is a woman, and women are responders. If you'll just ponder for a while about all of the things you did in order to win your wife before you were married to her. Your wife desires the man that wooed her; she desires the man that won her over by being romantic.<BR>Remember what is was like before you married her: you couldn't wait to just hear her voice on the telephone, you would write love letters and poetry to her, you would place all of your needs secondarily to hers because she was your greatest gift and treasure.<BR> Sir, in summary, what I am saying is to do the things which won the love of your wife in the first place: leave love notes in places only she will discover, get reservations at an extravagant hotel without her knowing-get someone to watch the kids for the weekend and surprise her with it. Don't be afraid to look foolish; don't think about your needs; be creative; and last but certainly not least-make your wife feel extraordinarily special, a queen, your true love with whom you'd marry all over again.

WOW SHA - look at this thread.....<P>Four pages in twelve hours....see how much we all love you!!!!!<P>How you feeling now? Any better.....<P>I agree with K about calling Dr H - it's time for some insight and it's not really like "going" yourself!!! Consider it a head start!!!<P>Forget Plan B - don't think you are ready for that nor do you need to put yourself through that added hell. I think you're like me in that regard!!<P>I do have one thing that stuck in my craw though. I get upset when I hear that a person who wants their family and marriage is the one who might leave the house. I'm sorry but to me that is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!!<P>Whoever wants out of the marriage and is acting to the detriment of it and the family should be the one to leave. What are we teaching ourselves and the children when the one who wants "home" leaves it? This makes absolutely no sense to me.....<P>Think about it....the kids see Mom (who was the unhappy one showing little interest in you and them) staying with them and YOU going? Then what? They get to watch Mom see others or something and meanwhile their Dad is not their main foothold on normalcy anymore...<P>Think long and hard on that one SHA - if it's even a serious option for you - which I hope it isn't.<P>Things are in a lull right now, how about concentrating on the holidays - can you muster up some cheer by being with the kids (and your wife also - but the main focus on the kids) do fun stuff with and for them for awhile instead of her.....<P>What do you think? OH, and throw a Harley Appointment in there too!!!<P>LOVE YA, Buddy!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

You crack me up, SHA. I THOUGHT you wanted to know how your wife MIGHT be feeling inside her head right now. I didn't say THAT'S precisely what she's feeling, but was trying to give you another slant on things.<P>I apologize profusely for giving you an opinion. Next time I'll certainly sugarcoat it with something trivial like "Oh it will pass ... hang tough."<P>Do you want betrayer's honest thoughts or do you just want sympathy? I WAS TRYING TO HELP!<P>Isaac, obviously you've never heard of the Doug and Maya show. You're probably too young.<P>And, Paul, if I wasn't just so sick of all this crap, I'd laugh you off.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 24, 1999).]

Maya: Why are you still here?

To irritate the crap out of you.<P>Misery loves company.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 24, 1999).]

SHA,<P>Terrible feeling huh,,,when you feel as though you're fighting a losing battle,, batting your head against a brick wall. I've been there, I know. <P>And when there are so many people on this forum that would give anything to have their spouse at home, it also feels almost ungrateful to be complaining about lack of feelings or intimacy. But it still hurts. You still feel that wall, that barrier and feel helpless to break it down. <P>SHA, I agree with those previous replies that have suggested seeing a doctor for meds. I also strongly suggest counseling, even if it means going alone. I do. I went for counseling because I was having problems with ME. With my inability to handle the circumstances. Yes, it would have been nice to have him go with me but he didn't choose to go. And I was the one with the hurt, the pain, the anger. I had to help ME. And you need to help SHA. <P>Just as a little encouragement, we are 2 months into recovery after the affair. I didn't get that close feeling either, after we recommitted. I missed those endearing names that are usually spoken so spontaneously, "Hon, Sweetheart, Baby," but they returned with time. <P>SHA, do not move out. If your intent is to rebuild, it's so much harder if you're not together. And your kids need their dad. Go to the doctor and get some meds. Get to a counselor. I've heard super things about Harley. At least try it!! I'm thinking about you SHA, and hoping for the best!!

K - Your advice is priceless; thank you. One final question for you. What advantages are there in counseling with Steve over a local therapist? I found that my medical insurance will cover counseling for someone in town here not through the phone. Phone counseling sounds odd to me, aren't there advantages to speaking with someone in person? <P>RWD - Thanks for the advice. I do think something needs to change. I'm not sure what right now. I suppose I should wait until I seek counsel and have a clear head before I jump to conclusions. I hear you on getting to not take it out on the kids. We have a lot of kids, silence is rare fighting and arguing between them seems to be a way of life sometimes and I for one can lose it. So, you're right I am going to get meds.<P>Isaac - Thanks for the encouragement. I don't mind Maya's comments. She has given me much insight into the mind of a betraying wife. For that I am grateful. As far as the delivery of the comments, again my skin is thick, I have lots of kids, I going through this hell, it takes a lot to get my feathers ruffled.<P>Zip - It sounds like we do have much in common. My wife has told me she wants that connection again, but she doesn't know how to get it. The problem is I don't see her trying all that hard to get it. Maybe my Taker is rearing it's ugly head - I don't know. I certainly envy you folks who are going to counseling together. My wife is very prideful and she thinks she can handle all this on her own. Maybe if I start going, she will join me. I have given 110% for quite some time. I cherish her more than any woman could ever want I think. It has helped us to a certain degree, but now I know what a great marriage is and I don't want to settle for less. Thanks for your encouragement.<P>Cl - I found your thoughts about my wife not being happy interesting. She seems content on the outside, but I don't know what is going on deep inside her head. I would have to agree with you though, I wouldn't be happy. She isn't in counseling basically because of pride. She is very strong willed (stubborn) and thinks she can handle this on her own. I have asked her to go with me and she doesn't see the need. Thank you for the hugs and prayers.<P>new_beginning - I'm hanging in there for now. This wave of depression seemed to have come from nowhere and it hit hard. <P>Professorg - Rob you are certainly a man of integrity. My faith has certainly been tested through this ordeal. <P>Littlegiant - Through my years of marriage, I committed the cardinal sin of taking my wife for granted. Infidelity never crossed my mind. My wife and I were bonded together for life. Nothing could come between us. We made a vow to one another right? Those were my thoughts a little more than a year ago, those were the thoughts and actions of a very foolish man. Infidelity is no respector of any marriage - all are at risk. Ten months ago, I did take all focus off of me. I have stepped way beyond the things I originally did to court my wife. You can't imagine how much I cherish her now - everyday without exception. Beyond the obvious things, I notice when her make up is running low and buy her more. I notice when her tampons are running low and buy her more. I make sure her car is filled with gas and running well. I leave her love notes - every day. She asked me to not send her so many flowers. I write her love letters. I give her lots of non-sexual touch. I listen when we talk and respond when she asks for something. I bring her coffee every morning as she is showering. I notice the smallest things she does and compliment her. I make her wonderful meals. I take to her very special places for dinner, concerts, and places we can just go and talk. I make her feel very special. The list of things I do goes on and on. More importantly I found how to talk to her again and we talk about everything except our problems. All of these things have helped us become friends again. And yet, she still finds some level of comfort in talking to the OM occasionally. I can't seem to break that bond - and it hurts. I'm trying. Winning her back is more than just doing things - that's what I'm trying to figure out.<P>Sheba - Warrior gal, my good friend. I do feel loved by all of you. I wish there was something I could do to show my appreciation to everyone. I'm still down, but not so bad that I want to crawl under my desk. I'm going to swallow my pride and see my about meds and try counseling with someone. I wonder if my counselor will advise me to move where you are? I have thought about Plan B and I just don't know. Right now I see it only as causing more damage but, I won't do that without proper counsel. Something has to change though, I'm just not sure what. My wife is a wonderful mother. I could not ask for anyone better for them. Through this mess, she has done quite well in keeping sane with them and for the most part the younger ones have no idea there was or is a problem. The older ones certainly suspected something was wrong and confronted both of us separately. I think their fears have diminished about us divorcing. I seem to be the only one unhappy right now. This holiday season has to be better than last year's - that was a disaster. Thank you Sheba. <P>Maya - Did I miss something here? I DO appreciate your help. Keep in mind I'm unstable right now (I'm sure you know the feeling). When did I say I wanted anything sugarcoated? I'm a between the eyes kind of guy. Anytime I hear you say "oh, this too shall pass" I'll know your off your meds. What the heck did I say the got your knickers in a twist? BTW, I am trying to HELP you too! <P>Nerlycrzy - Yes, I do feel guilty about posting this and I hesitated for awhile because I know many here would love to be in my shoes. Yes, my wife is home. Yes, we do talk and touch and date and on the surface we are doing great. But, on the inside I am struggling with my sanity. Unconditional love goes for so long before it turns conditional. Marriage is conditional love anyway isn't it? Meeting one another's needs. Being there for one another. It's been so one sided for so long. I need more than crumbs to survive. I honestly don't require much. I'm a very low maintenance guy. I can give way beyond what I get because I do find joy in giving. The verdict is in, I am calling the doc today for meds. I am trying to decide on Harley or a local face to face counselor. Haven't made that decision yet. I have started calling my wife a new pet name that she seems to like. I don't get anything back - maybe in time. Thank you so much for posting to me. <P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited November 24, 1999).]

I'm just so sorry, SHA, if I was too blunt and unfeeling. I mean to help, but I'm alittle ... er .... um ... unbalanced I guess.<P>I do wish you only the best.

SHA:<P>The main advantage of Steve is that he's the BEST (IMO). I did counseling with two local therapists (a PhD and an MD) who were "highly recommended", and neither of them were worth a tenth of Steve. <P>So, ignoring that---I found the phone counseling more convenient and more effective than office counseling. I had some of the same reservations that you probably have---there's no way for Steve to read body language, you really don't "know" who's at the end of the phone...<P>The reasons I found working with Steve more effective is that we could quickly focus on the behavioral aspects of the situation, without distractions (like looking at office furnishings, diplomas on the wall...). As we worked together, I'd prepare a list of items to go over, and we'd go down that list an item at a time. I also find Steve an extremely effective communicator---he doesn't force feed you answers, but leads you to come up with them yourself. He also knows the MB material inside and out. You will have homework to do---it helps you learn the process, and it also provides you with the feeling that you're doing something positive with your time. He's also a great coach and motivator---and that's one area I think you'd benefit the most from right now.<P>In terms of convenience, he's open nearly 24 hrs/day! His office hours do range from 8 or 9 am to 10 pm. You don't drive anywhere---I did the majority of my counseling from my office at work. Once you get used to the idea of phone counseling, the conveniences really become obvious. And his price was very reasonable---he was $60/session when I started (I think it's $75/session now). My local MD was $200/session, and my PhD was $125/session for comparisons. And although my health care would cover it, the doctor had to "report back" to my employer, so I opted to pay for everything out-of-pocket to avoid any potential "stigma" associated with the visits (I'm not really sure how necessary that was).<P>I'd really encourage you to give Steve a call, mainly because he is THE BEST. Try him for a few sessions, and if you don't think so, you'll only be out a couple hundred.

One other huge advantage in the phone counseling, SHA...<P>You'd like to get your wife involved, right?? But there's a big barrier for her to get in the car with you and go to an office somewhere to talk with a stranger.<P>It's not such a big barrier to throw the phone to her and ask her if she'd give some feedback for Steve... And that does work (trust me...).

K - This has been on my mind for some time now - Are you Steve? Well, you never know. Thanks for the input. I didn't know that local therapist had to report back to my employer - that is something to consider. I suppose the idea of phone counseling just sounds odd to me. You know - is he watching the football game in his underware while he's talking to me? I guess there isn't any harm in trying it out. <P>Does he go back and review this forum for insight into my problem or do you basically start from scratch? Sorry to keep bugging you about this, but your input is so helpful.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited November 24, 1999).]

LOL!!!! Steve in his underware yelling "touchdown" as I pour my heart out to him.<P>Great visual!!!!!!!<P>Nope, I'm not Steve. As a matter of fact, when I first started with Steve, I could get through to him pretty easy. I think he's much busier now, and he certainly doesn't need additional advertising. But I am a huge fan of his, and I think you would do very well with him (assuming he doesn't yell "touchdown" during a session...) <P>

As regards to Steve with the forum: he does read here occasionally, but with his schedule, he doesn't have much time for it.<P>I would assume that you would start from scratch, but you're in the enviable situation of understanding a lot of the MB principles, so you'll be able to start to apply them in "new ways" that you may not have thought of. I don't think it would take you long to start seeing positive results.

K - THANK YOU SO MUCH