I'd like to think I am whole without her. I've lived 3/4's of my life without her. So I know I can do it.

I know we could have a great marriage too, but only if we both are doing what God wants us to do.

So I'm trying to do what He wants me to do.

I'm trying something different with YD. I used to call the apartment and ask WW to have YD call. Now, I just leave the messages for YD, don't even mention WW. Last time YD called me, she asked if I wanted to speak with mom. Well how do you explain that you would love more than anything to have some sort of conversation where we work on a plan so that mommy and daddy live together again, but you don't have anything to say to her right now.

So I just say, I don't have anything to say unless she wants to talk to me. YD asks and WW says she has nothing to say.

Well, I'll treat YD well this weekend, make a big deal about valentines day, send her home with her own flowers and such, maybe some for SD too.

If YD wants to get something for WW, she can too, I suppose.

But I have planned for a life without WW. In fact, it's quite easy. I'm accountable to no-one but God, I have paid off $35K worth of debt since she left in 10/03 and she got rid of another approx $5k when she traded the van financed in both of our names for a vehicle that she is solely responsible for paying off.

I'm in better shape, lost a lot of weight, had a hernia repaired, I work out regularly, hang out with the divorce care folks, and have a much better relationship with YD and the cat WW left at the house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I lost more money in the market crash in 2000-2001 than I'll lose to her in the divorce, so that doesn't even bother me so much now.

The house is cleaner, and now my pager is going off.

In the long run, divorce is probably cheaper and less stressful than staying married.

So why do I want a chance to work it out?

I don't feel like God has released me, but I don't feel like he's opened any doors either.

Well, gotta answer the pager...

T

Try to stop thinking of her as a liability.

She is part of you, your own flesh. She is of great worth in Gods sight , just as you are .

Father, let him see her as you see her. Let him see himself as you see him.

Tony,

I thought you said God hasn't talked to you at all. I think he said plenty with this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel like God has released me, but I don't feel like he's opened any doors either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, this is one of the most significant thing you've ever said!

So let's break this down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel like God has released me...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would he do that? The only thing I can think of is because he's not through with the two of you. I just evision Him saying; "Tony, I have a plan for you but it won;t work of you're gone".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...but I don't feel like he's opened any doors either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Tony, you're right where I want you to be in order for my plan to work. I need you to stay right where you're at, because I have a work to do in you're W."

I would just sit back, be nice to WW, pray over WW and watch God work. Be consistant with what you do when WW is around. When you see her, smile, and consider the things God may be doing in her life. You just might be messing them up if you act all "old Tony" like.

Something to think about huh?

Blessings to you.

S&C

So, what do you folks think about inviting WW to do things with YD and me? Things like inviting her to church, or a day trip someplace, stuff like that.

I spoke with her briefly last night. Or I guess I should say I just listened. She said she wanted YD back at 7pm on Sunday, not 8pm like last time, because it was bed time.

(Funny, many of YD's calls were after 8pm on a school night. But I'm not supposed to resent the double standard, right?)

Maybe I'm better off without her. I didn't have all of this anger and resentment before I met her. It seems so much easier to just start over with someone who doesn't express so much hatred towards me.

Well, I have YD with me, so I better sign out and spend some time with her.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what do you folks think about inviting WW to do things with YD and me? Things like inviting her to church, or a day trip someplace, stuff like that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you be doing it for you or for her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I spoke with her briefly last night. Or I guess I should say I just listened. She said she wanted YD back at 7pm on Sunday, not 8pm like last time, because it was bed time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listening is good. (Was that the only conversation?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Funny, many of YD's calls were after 8pm on a school night. But I'm not supposed to resent the double standard, right?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn't have all of this anger and resentment before I met her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could have a pain free life, sure, but you would miss out on learning to love and receive love, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems so much easier to just start over with someone who doesn't express so much hatred towards me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your big chance to practice returning love for hate.

Welcome to 'Love School 101'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what do you folks think about inviting WW to do things with YD and me? Things like inviting her to church, or a day trip someplace, stuff like that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you be doing it for you or for her?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and for YD too. YD wants us back together again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I spoke with her briefly last night. Or I guess I should say I just listened. She said she wanted YD back at 7pm on Sunday, not 8pm like last time, because it was bed time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listening is good. (Was that the only conversation?)
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that was the only conversation. She wanted to speak with YD not with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Funny, many of YD's calls were after 8pm on a school night. But I'm not supposed to resent the double standard, right?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, then how do I not resent that WW has a totally different set of rules for herself, than she applies to me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn't have all of this anger and resentment before I met her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could have a pain free life, sure, but you would miss out on learning to love and receive love, too.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'm totally missing this, how do I learn to love when the example is hatred. Even Jesus told the disciples to dust off their sandals and leave villages that didn't want to hear the gospel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems so much easier to just start over with someone who doesn't express so much hatred towards me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your big chance to practice returning love for hate.

Welcome to 'Love School 101'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think it would be easier if I wasn't so hurt. Maybe I'll just love on YD and leave WW alone.

T

Tony,

For the most part, I agree with Shul.

Inviting WW with the two of you is a good thing. But i would do so only if yo and YD were getting enough time together. Invite WW as long as you don't thingk it will turn ugly.

As long as you keep your part of the conversation pleasent and light hearted and listen a lot you did very good,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
(Funny, many of YD's calls were after 8pm on a school night. But I'm not supposed to resent the double standard, right?)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first thought about your phone converstions w/ YD after 8 pm was that your YD had done everything she needed to do to et ready for bed and after your call she went to sleep. If you bring her home at 8:00, then she still has to do all the stuff it takes to get ready and then she ends up getting to bed later, or it disrupts a routine your WW has and messes up her rituals. Just a thought.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I didn't have all of this anger and resentment before I met her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the more reason to spend time away from the hurt. But during the times you will have to be in contact, you should express love as best you can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'm totally missing this, how do I learn to love when the example is hatred. Even Jesus told the disciples to dust off their sandals and leave villages that didn't want to hear the gospel.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually I think you understand Jesus' example quite well. You walk away from it. The hard part is doing it. However, Jesus never said to stop loving them. You can love them without being there with them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It seems so much easier to just start over with someone who doesn't express so much hatred towards me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you feel like that is where God is leading you? I remember you saying that you didn't feel like God has released you from it yet. But you didn't see any open doors.

Have you ever played a computer adventure game where you go into a room and you have to do curtain things in order to leave the room an go to the next level? You can't leave, but you believe you've done everything you were supposed to do. In order to move on you either have to wait for an event to happen, or you have to think out of the box to see what you missed. Think you're at that place.

Someone sent this to me at a time I needed it the most. It was very significant for me maybe for you too.

The Isolation Chamber

Be still and know that I am God � . (Psalm 46:10)

There is a time and place in our walk with God in which He sets us in a place of waiting.
It is a place in which all past experiences are of no value.
It is a time of such stillness that it can disturb the most faithful, if we do not understand that He is the one who has brought us to this place for only a season.
It is as if God has placed a wall around us.
No new opportunities� simply inactivity.

During these times, God is calling us aside to fashion something new in us.
It is an isolation chamber designed to call us to deeper roots of prayer and faith.
It is not a comfortable place, especially for a task-driven businessperson.
Our nature cries out, "You must do something," while God is saying, "be still and know that I am God."
You know the signs that you have been brought into this chamber, when He has removed many things from your life and you can't seem to change anything.
Perhaps you are unemployed.
Perhaps you are laid up with an illness.

Most religious people live a very planned and orchestrated life where they know almost everything that will happen.
But for people in whom God is performing a deeper work, He brings them into a time of quietness that seems almost eerie.
They cannot say what God is doing.
They just know that He is doing a work that cannot be explained to themselves or to others.

Has God brought you to a place of being still?
Be still and know that He really is God.
When this happens, the chamber will open soon after.

I recieved ths about one year after d-day (Dec. 2, 2002). I stayed in that chamber until March of 2004. Worth the time in there. I would never want to do it again, but if I did, I would know God is watching out for me and when I got out things would never be the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think it would be easier if I wasn't so hurt. Maybe I'll just love on YD and leave WW alone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good advice, you should take it.

Blessing to you.

S&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would be easier if I wasn't so hurt.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. It is easy to love people who love us back; who don't hurt us.

But we are told to love even our enemies; to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

The key to healing from the hurt is in forgiving. When we forgive, we are healed.

I know this is hard. But someone has been there before you. He loved us while we were his enemies. He had nails driven through his hands and feet in your place. He suffered on a cross for your forgiveness. He took your place while you were still estranged from him.

We love because he first loved us. Love reaches out to people even when they have hurt us. It looks beyond what they have done to us, and sees their need.

Your wife really needs love. The things she is doing are just symptoms of her need.

And you can give her some. Let God love her through you.

In time she will respond to the consistant love and kindness and understanding that you choose to show her. And as you do, God will pour his love into you, Tony.

You can do this.

By now she is finding out that the grass was not greener on the other side, and that she was better off with you. Maybe she had a little growing up to do.

It might be hard for her to admit that, and you have to be careful not to bruise her pride. Weh the time comes you can tell her that you know how hard it is for her, and that she is doing her best. That you know she is having a bad time making ends meet and that you want them to be happy and have all the things they need.

That you care for her and all you ever wanted was to take good care of her and your daughter, and that you wanted them to have security. You were not being unreasonable- you were doing your best to protect them from want.

And that you miss her and need her, and that you want her as a partner- that you want to work together to make a home for each other and your daughter. To combine your resources.

But pray for the right timing.

Whether she realises it yet or not, she needs you. She is not going to get any younger, and I know too many women who left, thinking they were going to have this great life, but who ended up old, destitute, bitter and alone.

I have friends who left, who thought they had it so rough. Now they are older, they have to work and raise kids on their own, and they have dated but haven't met anyone who is any better than thier husband was. And they aren't young and desirable anymore. I pity them.

I pray that you don't give up on her, and that she realises what she has in you.

I got the third revision of the agreement we made in December. I think it has all the changes I asked for from the first one.

So it's decision time. Do I really let her go.

This one wasn't signed by her, the previous two were. I don't know if it means anything or not.

T

how are you?

I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for guidance. Do I sign or not?

If you have ANY doubts--- I wouldn't sign. You sign when your heart and head are in sync.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for guidance. Do I sign or not? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was in your shoes. H wanted Div' - I didn't. I did all the "stalling" stuff. Hired an attorney, fought the whole process every step of the way. Like Harley's say: to give him time to see the A for what it really is, and "snap out of it......" All it did was infuriate him.........

Finally had to sign, and LET GO.

It took almost 2 years after that, but God eventually went to work on WH. Sometimes we are preventing what God wants to do by wanting OUR way in our timing.

If there's no other way, sign the dang thing. It's just a piece of paper, anyway. Means NOTHING to the Lord.

ExH and I will be getting remarried in 2 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Get my point?

God Bless,

What do you really want?

Just wanna know what God wants me to do.

Tony,

Sorry I haven't been around.

I know this may sound like a cop out but, what do you think God wants you to do?

Keep in mind that His priority is your's and your W's relationship with Him first. Then your well being and your W's well being (two separate issues, handled by Him separately). Then your M.

As Lupo said, all dragging her feet did was piss her H off (an LB if you will).

Will not signing tick off your W?

Signing may show her you can live w/o her and she can't control you any more. Wake up call for her maybe?!?

In your opinion, what will not signing accomplish? Do you think she'll be more determined to get the D? Are you just delaying the inevitable?

God will still continue to work on your W even if you aren't in the picture as much. He may even be able to work faster w/o you working your agenda.

If you do sign it, I think it's important that she knows you really don't want to.

There is a lot of wisdom in what Lupo wrote. To God it's just a piece of paper.

BTW - Lupo, congradulations. I didn't know the wedding was going to be in 2 months. Where do I send the gift?

Take care ya'll and God bless you greatly!

Love in Christ.

S&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by steadfast and committed:
<strong> Lupo, congradulations. I didn't know the wedding was going to be in 2 months. Where do I send the gift?

Take care ya'll and God bless you greatly!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, S&C.
Don't need gifts. Have everything we need!!! PTL!
Doin' the happy dance here. Things can't get much better..........

NONE of this would be happening now if I didn't finally "figure it all out."

Everything you just told Tony is right-on.

R w/God first. Knowing God's will does NOT include div' (but that HIS department to tell WS) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> is next.

One final point: Yes, God was continuing to work on WH while we were apart. My prayers for that helped, I'm sure!

Tony, I want the same for you. Please spend ALL free time just alone w/God. He HAS answers. He wants to do this. Let Him.

We had a visiting prophet in our church today. Interesting that he spoke on basically this very point: He said we have the "Logos" - the totality of God's Word (the Bible). And God's will is spelled out in there for us. But then we sometimes also get a "Rhema" Word........a "Word in due season" - so to speak. A direct revelation of God's will. A promise to believe in. Specific to us, to our circumstance right at this moment. THAT's what you need now! You need God to speak directly into your situation for you. T, that will only come if you spend time alone with God being still and listening and waiting. Stop asking. Just listen.

God Bless you,

I can see where dragging it out could be a great LB.

So how do you sign and say that this is not what you wanted. Seems like even that is an LB.

I am hanging on to nothing but a dream, and it's a dream that doesn't appear to have any hope of coming true.

I am losing the dream, I'm also losing all the critcism she threw my way.

I am losing the love, but I'm also losing all the manipulation she used on me.

I am losing the companionship, but I'm also losing the financial black hole she often was.

But it was mostly just a dream, and not always a good one.

I've decided that I don't want WW, I would like to have a partner, someone who works well with others, who doesn't manipulate or play games, who is open with her feelings, and not so judgmental. Someone who understands that differences of opinion doesn't mean hatred. People who love each other can disagree on things, and take the time to understand how the other person thinks, feels and believes.

Maybe WW will become this woman, or perhaps God has someone else in mind.

T

Tony,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how do you sign and say that this is not what you wanted. Seems like even that is an LB.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are some things that may seem like an LB and may get received as an LB. But if you are just communicating a plain and simple truth, it's just honest communication.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am hanging on to nothing but a dream, and it's a dream that doesn't appear to have any hope of coming true.

I am losing the dream, I'm also losing all the critcism she threw my way.

I am losing the love, but I'm also losing all the manipulation she used on me.

I am losing the companionship, but I'm also losing the financial black hole she often was.

But it was mostly just a dream, and not always a good one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've found out that there is a fine line between healthy love and dependency/co-dependency. It's the ability to let go when it hurts us, abuses us and just plain isn't healthy for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've decided that I don't want WW, I would like to have a partner, someone who works well with others, who doesn't manipulate or play games, who is open with her feelings, and not so judgmental. Someone who understands that differences of opinion doesn't mean hatred. People who love each other can disagree on things, and take the time to understand how the other person thinks, feels and believes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep this list around, use it as your reality check when you consider your next R.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe WW will become this woman, or perhaps God has someone else in mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Start praying for this woman right now (whoever she may be) and let God work.

It may not feel like it, but I think you are in a healthy place right now. Bless you my friend.

S&C

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: steadfast and committed ]</small>

How are you doing Tony?

S&C