S&C,

That was an awesome post.

Pardon my sarcasm, so you are saying I should be happy God let this happen?

I should be happy I didn't get or understand the wakeup call before this happened.

I should be happy that I was so self centered that I didn't see or couldn't see what was happening?

Yes, I say God let it happen. Does anybody say differently?

Do I blame God? I don't know? Maybe I wish I would have been paying attention, that he would have sent me a message I could understand so I could see her pain.

So many people have told me, "you should have known"

Well I didn't, I own that. I would like to think that God could have gotten my attention with something a bit less that letting my family be torn up.

Yes I understand it was her decision. It was my decision to be self centered, not to worship regularly, etc.

Pardon me if I really dislike the consequences, especially since they hurt my daughter who doesn't deserve to get hurt in all of this.

T

Hi Tony...

I'm hoping you weren't talking to me, because I was really trying to say something different--more along the lines of appreciating your suffering at the hands of your wife.. .

My post was on the previous page... Were you able to read it?

Tony, I'm hoping to find some time in my schedule to compose a "good" post to you. I've started, but there is much to cover, so I'm trying to find the hours I need to compose something that doesn't ramble all over the place.

For now, though, let me make a brief comment about your latest post, the defensive "tone" that shouts in your writing, and hopefully give you something to reflect upon as you are wrestling with the pain and the consequences.



Tony, you grossly misundertand. NO ONE is saying that you should be "happy," as in "ha, ha, laugh, laugh, funny funny!" The "happiness" you are referring to could be better described as "thankfulness." Thankful that God is using these terrible circumstances to draw you closer to him, to make you aware of your questions, your "arms-length" relationship with Him, thankful for HIS patience with sinners in general and with ourselves in particular, in other words to "soften your heart" and ready you for hearing Him and what He has to say.

Remember, Tony, God DRAWS us to Him, we don't generally go seeking Him on our own. God USES the circumstances in our lives to cause us to seek Him, to realize that there IS more than just ourselves. A word of caution, though, there ARE those who are "happy" with just "seeking and seeking" but never finding, never accepting, never surrendering THEIR life and THEIR will to God. There IS a point at which we make that "leap of faith" that accepts what God is saying as TRUTH, even if WE don't understand everything about "it". We do so because we accept God, that HE is sovereign, and He IS omniscient and faithful to ALL of His promises to those who love Him in Christ.



Tony, ALL actions have consequences. Sin has BAD consequences. Of course it hurts and of course it's not fair that the "innocent" should suffer. NONE of us likes the consequences, but we have all been warned that we are living in a sinful world and living in a body that has an innate sin-nature. Sin IS the "norm" for humans. Only through a willing humble submission of our lives to following God's commands can we hope to see "positive" consequences. But we are NOT released from having to deal with, and overcome, the consequences of sin, both sin from around us and our own personal sin choices. FORGIVEN does not mean that there are no consequences to deal with.

It is HOW we deal with the circumstances and consequences of of life's journey that reveals, in many cases, the strength or weakness of our personal walk with Christ. None of is promised a "pain free" life. In fact, the opposite is most often true. Christians are warned that they are likely to have to deal with suffering BECAUSE they DO choose to follow Christ rather than the "world."



I should have know better too. I didn't either. But I made the circumstances. God WAS there to "pick up the pieces" and to use those circumstances to teach me, to use them to "work for good in the life of those who love Him."

I, too, would surely have preferred to have had some other "wake up call" than infidelity. But understand I was "comfortable" with keeping God at "arms length" while continuing to "do what I wanted to do." That "doing what I wanted to do" was essentially keeping God on shelf and not on the throne of my life. Is it ANY WONDER that sin, especially as devastating as sin as adultery, could enter my marriage since I had abrograted my God-given role as "spriritual leader" in my home? Self indulgence and self-centeredness leads to spousal neglect as well. It leads to NOT meeting the needs of our spouse. It leads to establishing an "atmosphere" in our marriage where our spouse COULD be vulnerable to outside influences.

Tony, I live with the consequences too. We all do. David lived with the consequences, even though he was forgiven, including the death of his child. Yet David did not "blame" God for the consequences. He recognized them as the "fruits" of sin. He rejoiced in God's forgiveness and that God had NOT abandoned him.

It's hard Tony, we all know that. Pride and stubborness were two of the things that I had to face and surrender to God. The "ego hit" we take often raises those defensive barriers so high that it's hard to "let them go" and follow God as one "broken and contrite" in spirit. Yet, it IS the only way to go. God is LORD. HE has done and endured exceedingly more for us when HE took ALL of the consequences of sin upon himself and drank that cup.

God KNOWS how you and I feel. He KNOWS the pain and the "unfairness." It is WHY Jesus Christ three times prayed to the Father to find some other way to save us rather than His having to endure the cup, the agony of all the sins of the world, of physical death on the cross, of the feeling of separation from God on our behalf....yet he submitted to the Father's will. He gave us the example of submission in the face of the most extreme trials.

And by HIS stripes we are healed.....and it takes time to heal. The great Physician is faithful and true as we let Him work on us and as we DO the work that is necessary to regain our strength....and that "work" is summed up in one small phrase from Christ...."if you love me, obey my commands."

God bless you and comfort you. May God grant you His wisdom to understand what He has been saying to you all along.

Tony,

I've been silent since your D b/c I really didn't know what to say. But I've been praying that you receive the answers you are seeking. Today, after reading how much anger you have inside & disappointment that God hasn't answered your prayer or at least you think He hasn't, I had to say something that's been on my mind. So, just for the heck of it, I went back to the MountainWings e-mail I receive every day to see what the message was for the day of your D - 3/18/05. Here is what I found:

The Decision

"I was on a week long journey on the Amazon River.

The rainforest was being destroyed, and I wanted to see it before man made a wreck of it. I lived on a riverboat and took long journeys into the jungle.

We were on our way back to the riverboat on a small overloaded outboard powered boat. We had just come out of the jungle in a small village and several of the villagers were on the boat with us. The boat was built to hold a dozen people. There were 20 on the boat. U.S. Coast Guard regulations didn’t apply in the Amazon.

I was standing along with several others at the front of the boat because there were no seats left. In the middle of the river, another boat came towards us; I assumed to pickup or heaven forbid, drop off additional passengers.

They were coming fast, a little too fast. The driver of the other boat didn’t slow down fast enough; and instead of pulling up beside us, he drove headlong into the front of the boat.

I saw it coming. “This can’t be,” I thought as I mentally plotted his course and speed and kind of knew he wasn’t going to make the turn. It’s a sinking feeling when you just know you’re going be in an accident.

The boat hit us with a loud “BAM!” I don’t remember whether I was thrown or just jumped but the next thing I knew I was in the Amazon River.

The boat that hit us was swerving wildly as a spinning propeller churned the water. I wasn’t exactly sure where I was going but I knew one thing for sure, I didn’t need to be anywhere near that spinning propeller. I knew that could chop you up faster than the “Whopper Chopper” as seen on TV.

I looked around and saw our riverboat sitting what looked a quarter of a mile away.

I wasn’t sure whether both boats would sink, and I sure couldn’t get back in the boat at the moment. Life often presents you with two very unpleasant choices. Neither is particularly desirable but you have to choose. To not choose is even worse.

Swim for the riverboat or wait and hope both boats don’t sink?

I started swimming.

As I swam I felt my boots dragging me under. I had just come out of the jungle and I had on thick hiking boots. “I’ve got to take these clothes off,” I thought and I stopped to ditch the boots and whatever else I needed to take off to be able to swim.

As I turned around the sight sent a chill through me.
It wasn’t the boots dragging me under.

A woman was holding on to me!

Our eyes locked as I saw the terrible fear in her eyes.
I had not noticed her because everything was a loud roar of engines, propellers, shouting people, and churning water. It was a mess.

She desperately held on to me with one hand.
I am a good swimmer but I’ve never had lifeguard training.

Why was the woman holding on with only one hand?

Because in the other arm she held a little baby.

I faced one of the toughest decisions of my life and I had to make it in an instant.

If I shook this lady loose both she and her child could die.
If I allowed her to hang on, all three of us could die.

It was one of those instances when everything you really are, everything you believe, all of the real character within, is called to the carpet, and it is called in an instant.

You don’t have time to consult your mother, you don’t have time to put it to the committee, you don’t have time to ask your best friend, you have to make a decision, and you’ve got to do it NOW!

I started swimming with the lady and her baby in tow.

After what seemed like an agonizing eternity, I remember reaching the ladder of the riverboat. I did not have the strength to pull up on the ladder. My arms were like jelly as the three of us just held on. I held on to the ladder, the woman held on to me and her child.

Men from the riverboat finally pulled us up to safety.

I left my camera in the river but the picture of that moment did not require film for it to be forever burned in my mind’s eye.

All of us at some point will face such decisions. We will face a situation where to save another, we must put ourselves or our resources at risk.

That is the decision that sooner or later you will have to make.

That is the decision but then that is the faith."

Now, what message can YOU take from this? It seems to apply to your situation in some way or another. This man was pulling this woman to safety. This man was dragging her along not sure if his own life would be saved. He had no energy left when he got to the boat.

This reminded me of you & how you've been trying to save this M, all on your own w/no help from your W. She was lifeless, no efforts at all b/c she is drowning. You are trying to be the rescuer & your W has no desire to be rescued. She is ignoring your efforts to save her.

Now God is watching all of this. He is also trying to rescue the both of you, but your W is flailing about, not grasping back to both of you letting herself be rescued. She is deciding to let go & let herself drown. This is HER choice. And what does God do? He cries. He is losing one of his children no matter how hard He tries to rescue her. She is resisting Him, resisting His efforts. So what does God do?

God had the same thing happen to w/His nation Israel so many times. So many times God had tried to save them, He was there for them, He called to them & they ignored His pleas. They purposefully turned away from Him & committed adultery w/other gods. They turned their back on Him so many times. He got fed up. He allowed them to suffer so many times. And where were the people that were faithful to Him & didn't stop worshipping Him? They too were part of the suffering. They had to suffer w/everyone else b/c of what the others were doing. But they still praised Him despite their suffering. Why? They could have easily said, Why have you let ME suffer? *I* have remained faithful to You." But they didn't. Instead they continued to praise Him, to rejoice that He was indeed their Lord & had faith that they would be rescued some day.

Tony, there's nothing you can do about your W's choice to D. This was NOT God's choice. It was your W's. Did He allow it to happen? Yes, I believe He did. See, He wasn't getting through to her. All of His cries, His pleas to her to turn away from sin fell onto deaf ears. She didn't hear Him. He was pleading w/her right along w/you. Her heart is probably so hardened that it's going to take a lot more effort on God's part to reach her. He is probably going to have to create some drastic situations in order to get her attention. What I believe is that He needed YOU out of the picture in order to do that. He needed you completely seperated from her in order to reach her b/c she is that far gone.

Just like the scenario above, you have no more energy to try to rescue her. God sees this. Maybe He is giving you rest b/c He knows that you are weary. He knows that you have nothing left to give. He is trying to PROTECT you, not hurt you. Yes, the situation has caused hurt, but what you don't know & what you're refusing to see is that God is going to turn all of this around for YOUR good. He will bless you ANYWAY, despite what your W has chosen to do to hurt you. But, He won't do that if you continue to walk down the path that your W has chosen. To blame God, to be angry w/Him, to continually ask Him, Why didn't you save my M?

You ask what is God's will for you? His will for YOU has never changed. His will for YOU is to develop a R w/Him. And I know that you're trying to do that. But, I think where the problem lies is that you keep looking around at your CIRCUMSTANCES & then slip away from HIm so you can't hear Him talking to you even when you want to hear.

I had asked you before & I don't know if you didn't see it, but is it possible for you to make a list of things that you have in your life, that are happening right now to be thankful for? Totally exclude your M at this point. Concentrate on your child, your job, your health, anything. Make a list of those things. Add to it daily. Praise Him, thank Him for these things EVERY DAY. No matter what circumstances lie around you. This is what we mean when we say keep your eyes focused on HIM. DESPITE what is happening around you, be thankful ANYWAY. Do this continually, even when you feel so desperate, so alone, & you think you can't feel Him around you at all. Tony, you can feel Him around you every day. Just in your child alone. The love emitting from your child to you is God's love. THe love you have for HER is God's love. He is there. I just think what you're having a problem with is RECOGNIZING it. When you start to RECOGNIZE Him, His love around you, that's when, I believe, that you will start to feel it.

Now that this D has gone through, now is the time that you can let go Tony. You can let go of the hurt she caused you. You can let go of trying to save it. You can let go of HER. Do the things that I mentioned above & eventually you will be able to feel His love around you. His Holy Spirit falling down on you. And as you're living your life, God will be working on your W in His OWN way. Then, maybe, just maybe, you will have your prayer answered someday. You never know what the future may hold. You never know if that day will be the day that God hands you back your M. That He will bring to you a REPENTANT W that is willing to have a God-centered M w/you. In the meantime, you will have your #1 priority restored - a R w/God that you are so longing to have.

God bless you my friend.

Tony,


Well, lets see. If you haven't learned what you should have then I guess you shouldn't/wouldn't be happy. But if you learned what God had indended for you to learn, then yes, you should. Or you should at least understand the value of it.

I'm sure this isn't going to sit well with you but James 1:2-7

"Dear brothers and sisters, whenever trouble comes your way, let it be an opportunity for joy. For when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be strong in character and ready for anything.

    If you need wisdom--if you want to know what God wants you to do--ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking. But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from the Lord."

Why do you think God put verses 5-7 right there immediately after verses 2-4. It's because He wants us to know there are things to be learned when trouble comes. And if some thing is taken away from us, we need to look at how valuable it was to God. If He allowed a marriage to break up, then there was something even more important to Him at stake; either someones Relationship with Him or someone's salvation.


No. I never said He didn't allow it to happen. I did say that He allowed it to happen because your W exercised her freewill and chose to end it. God is still pursuing your W whether you see it or not. And He's seeking restoration in your R with him if you let Him.


You seem to.


Me too, but I figured out He was sending me messages. I just wasn't close enought to Him for me to hear them clearly.


That's what my W said too.


Again, me too. But I wanted what I wanted and chose not to listen.


So what do you do from here? Choose not to excercise the wisdom you have asked for (and probably received) and not learn from what has happened? Doesn't wisdom tell you that bitterness will keep you from experiencing a truely intimate relationship with God?

You've got to let it go and allow healing to take place. Otherwise, your D is going to see that bitterness and learn to treat God with contempt. That's right, she will see your bitterness, and you will be the one teaching her to stay away from God. Is it possible that God has allowed youu to have less custody because God is protecting your D from someone that will give her a false view of Him.

I don't know what you are going to do with this information, but I hope you see some wisdom in it.

May the Lord Bless you.

S&C

I know you mean well.

I just find it hard to believe that God would want my daughter to be with two people (WW and MOM) who are running away from both God and their spouses to pursue some sort of selfish happiness they perceive, when I'm trying to run back to God.

God made me the kind of person who wants to understand, who wants to make sense of things.

Very little of this made sense. (Not what you wrote, the sitch.)

T

Tony,


GOD DOES NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR WIFE HAS MADE THIS CHOICE, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really need to understand this. If you don't, you will always be keeping God at arms length, period. No matter what your words say.

And the longer you keep Him at a distance, the longer it will take you to be the influence you need and want to be in your daughter's life.

Bottom line.

S&C

You said,


So if using your logic, God allowing her to be with XW and MOM and doing that to protect her, that He prefers her to be with the woman who is running away from God, than with the me who is trying to get closer to God.

That's what I read in what you wrote. Essentially, what I hear is that God would rather allow YD to be with someone fleeing God than with someone wrestling with the nature of that relationship.

If that's what God wants, that's fine. I'd just like Him to explain it to me, how this is so much better. Because right now, it seems everyone is hurting over this.

Is God so afraid of my questions that He feels he has to stay away.

There is nothing I can do to keep God away. I don't have that kind of power. If God is at arms length, it is because HE chooses to be there, He is God. I can ask God to come to me, I can ask him to comfort me, to help me understand, to give me peace. But I can't force him to move anywhere either towards me or away from me.

I think you ascribe too much power to me. God is welcome in my life, and I know there is nothing I can do to keep Him away from me if He chooses to enter.

I'm not trying to get God to do things my way. My question is where is the answered promise? Where is the peace in the storm? If I could manufacture these thoughts or feelings myself, why would I need God?

You keep saying I have to do something. I believe I've done my part. I'm asking God to help me understand how He is keeping His promise.

I don't expect to never experience trials, and I understand the text in James, I've studied it many times.

What I want is to experience it in my heart. It's just head knowledge. Where is my promised changed heart?

T

Tony, I'll give you the answer in one word. But I don't get the impression that you are "ready" for it or for possibly even understanding what it means and what it entails. But, for what it's worth, here is the answer to your question, the "how" you get from "head knowledge" to "heart knowledge": Surrender.

I can expand, but I'm not going to right now. I want you to think about that one word, in all of it's aspects and "flavors." I'll even give you one "hard earned lesson" about the validity of that from one "I'm from Missouri" type to another apparant one....sometimes God has to use severe tragedy in our lives to "break" our stubborness and pride so that we WILL surrender. It's the ultimate in "vulnerability." It's embodied in the phrase, "trust God"....as a child has complete trust no matter what is going around or in their lives.

By the way....what's with the name change?

God bless.

I just work in MO, but live in IL, so I partially get the whole "Show Me" vibe.

The old name wasn't working for me. I surrendered my car as it took a place before both God and my wife. That is what the old name meant. I gave up my personal desires to do what I thought God wanted me to do, only to be proven so wrong. Believing that I heard from God that this divorce would not happen, that my wife would find her way back to Him before this thing was final. Only to get it so horribly and painfully wrong.

I guess I just have to surrender my desire to know what God wants me to do. I have to surrender wanting an explaination of where he is taking me in all of this.

But I can't trust that what I hear is from God, thus going back to my original question. I believe it is my job to listen for God. If I understand correctly, it's God's job to make sure the message is clear and can be understood.

What else can I do to listen? I can't speak for Him.

T

Tony, let's first clarify that you, I, and most of us are "impatient." Remember "God's timing is not our timing." God views things from the perspective "outside of time," in that He views it from the perspective of eternity. God "always was." He had no "beginning," but with Creation He intervened and "began" time as we know it.

So when we hear "wait on the Lord," it is more a reminder to keep in perspective our own "time oriented" view of things. OUR desire when experiencing of pain, suffering, trials, and tribulations, is to "decree that it end (to be over with or to not have to 'go through' this valley) NOW!!!! (According to OUR timetable.)

This is also embodied in Jesus Christ's 3 time plea to the Father to "let this cup pass" if there were any other way. Yet, Jesus "waited on the Father" and submitted His "human" will and desire to "get it over with NOW!!" to the Father's will in humble submission to the Father's will and obedience to the Father whether His "100% human side" liked it or not.

[color:"orange"]"But I can't trust that what I hear is from God, thus going back to my original question." [/color]

Tony, you can't "trust" because you are looking in the wrong direction. You are looking to your "feelings." You are looking to "human senses." You are like Thomas, not willing to "surrender" until he placed his fingers in the nail prints and in the spear wound. You are reserving your trust in God with a "yes, but..."

Tony, that trust begins with accepting that God IS sovereign, not us. We simply obey Him. We do what He tells us regardless of whether or not He chooses to include an "explanation." God is NOT saying to only obey Him if we think we understand and agree with Him. God is saying to trust and obey Him regardless, at all times, BECAUSE He IS God, He is LORD, He has the RIGHT to to command and we have the duty to obey.

[color:"orange"]"I believe it is my job to listen for God. If I understand correctly, it's God's job to make sure the message is clear and can be understood.[/color]

What you have been asking for is similar to the workers in the parable who were hired at the beginning of the day and were paid exactly the same as the workers who were hired at the last hour of the day. It is the "Owner," the "Lord," who decides what He wants to do and what He will give to each. YOU want God to speak directly to you AS HE SPOKE to the prophets of old that HE chose to use for special purposes. CAN God also speak in such a way to you and me? Certainly. He IS Lord.

But that is NOT how HE has chosen to speak to us. "In the past God spoke to us through the prophets, but today He has spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. The SCRIPTURE is how God speaks most often to each of us.

God has chosen to INDWELL us with the Holy Spirit who's "job" is to convict us of sin and to guide us in learning and understanding God, righteousness, and God's desire for our lives. "Be still, and know that I am God." We have to listen to the "still, quiet, voice." SIN is loud and distracting. SIN is like loud, obnoxious music. We may think it sounds good, but it drowns out reason and moral certainty...it lies to us, saying, "IF it feels good, do it!" Tony, [color:"blue"]GOD's message is clear and can be understood,[/color] but we have to get away from the loud music to "hear" it.

God WARNS us about "false prophets" who will "tickle our ears" with all sorts of things to deceive us into thinking that what they are saying is "from God." Be careful. God has given us HIS yardstick by which to measure the "truth" of statements you may run into. That yardstick IS the Scripture. So just because God chose to speak to the prophets, to Paul on the road to Damascus, etc. IS NOT a requirement that God is "bound," or "required," to speak to you or me in the same fashion. GOD, not us, is Sovereign and in control, no matter how "important" we want to think we are.

[color:"orange"]"What else can I do to listen? I can't speak for Him." [/color]

Quiet Time. Ever wonder why time with God, alone, is called "Quiet Time?" Think about it. Think about why prophets and JESUS himself, LEFT the people and the crowds to go off and be ALONE with God.

No, Tony, you can't "speak for God." Neither can I. That is NOT the "servant's job." Our job is to trust the "Master." Our job is "wait patiently" on the Master. Our job is listen when the Master speaks, and whether we understand the WHY of what He is saying or not, we obey regardless BECAUSE He IS the Master. WE, as Christians, are "bought and paid for" by Jesus Christ.

Yet, we are also His "bride." We are also "sons of God." We are "given" a special place "higher than the angels." Do I UNDERSTAND how or why? No...but it IS God's pleasure to "make it so."

What is the ONE sin that is at the base of just about all other sins that "block" our ability to hear and obey God?

[color:"red"]Pride. [/color]

We ARE the "top of the food chain" here on earth. WE choose. I "think, therefore I am." We are "lord of all life on earth." We are selfish by nature and "giving" by learned changes in our natural state.

Tony, what you can to is to "let go" of whatever "earthly lifeline" you are clinging to. NONE of us can know God in our own power. God REVEALS himself to us as we let go and walk with Him. It's "one on one." It's God and "child of God" alone. Not even in marriage will there be one single entity in heaven, we will remain as distinct individuals. There will be no marriage or giving in marriage in heaven. But God HAS chosen our eternal state....and we have no "say" in His choice other than to TRUST Him as a child trusts it's father regardless of understanding.

"Ye must be 'born again.'" Is it any wonder why THAT statement confused everyone? "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not."

Sin and hurt TEACH us to NOT trust. God says, despite this evil world and all that is in it....TRUST Him. Will any father give his child a rock to eat when he is hungry when the father could give him bread?

What is love? That God gave his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to bear ALL of our sins and to reconcile us to God through His sacrifice, His death and resurrection. That HE who knew no sin paid the price that was required IN OUR STEAD.

For someone who has personally been forgiven a totally unpayable ENORMOUSLY HUGE DEBT....what should our response be to the forgiving "Master?"

"Be still and know that I am God."

Know that God uses ALL things, even the evil things in life, to shape and mold good things in our lives that bring us closer to Him. God does NOT "author" or "cause" evil in the lives of His children. But God will use the dastardly things of life that occur to bring us to bring us to greater reliance on HIM, and not on our own selves or our own resources.

Phil.4:13: "I can do all things THROUGH Christ who gives me strength." It is God who provides His unlimited strength when we don't think we can go on. It is God who guides us through the valleys. It is God who reaches out the hand (Christ) of the Father that says to the child; "I am hear, I am stronger than the dark, I will protect YOU, I know the way so let ME lead and you follow...."

[color:"blue"]"What else can I do to listen?" [/color]

Surrender.

Let go of YOUR lifeline and take the hand of God's lifeline.

Trust....God, not "your own understanding."

Take a "leap of faith."

Faith IS believing those things that we cannot "see."

"Blessed are those who have not seen, yet who believe."


God bless.

Ok,

I've tried everything I know to surrender. I've asked God to take charge.

It is obvious, I don't know how to do this because if I did, it would be done.

I don't know how to obey that which I cannot hear. Heck, in many cases, I don't know how to obey that which I can read clearly in scripture.

Read Romans 7, the last part. I feel like Paul, I want to do the right thing, I need some devine assistance to do it, as I am unable to in my own power.

So where is God and that devine assistance? So many make this sound like, well just decide and you will do it. Well that hasn't worked, and scripture says I cannot do this under my own power.

From where I sit today, from what I've observed. God doesn't want me. His Holy Spirit is not in me, and no amount of asking for forgiveness, seeking His will, inviting Him into my life seems to change God's indifference.

It doesn't matter what I read in scripture, what matters is if God is going to change my heart. I'm am here, begging God to keep that promise of making a new creature out of me. I'm surrendering, worshiping, praying, seeking forgiveness.

Instead of experiencing God, I'm experiencing failure. I don't expect God to do it my way. But I do expect that God keep His word.

So where is the new creation? Where is the healing. I'm not holding onto the pain, I'm trying to do as Christ commands, to give him all of my sin and pain.

So I ask again, if I cannot do this by myself, and I cry out for help, and God doesn't answer in a way that I can understand, WHAT DO I DO?

Hi Tony,

You keep asking what you did wrong… why God isnt doing what you want/think he should do. I have a theory.

You know where I think you messed up? You didn’t marry a good, strong, stable, moral, Christian woman. Doesn’t God want good Christians to marry other good Christians? And we all know going to church for two hours a week doesn’t make a good Christian, right?

Tony, you are extremely logical, you go on and on about how ‘feelers’ don’t make accomidations for thinkers, while ‘thinkers’ are forced to accomidate ‘feelers’, but your ‘thinker’ really let you down here. You ran with your ‘feelings’ and they lead you down a very painful, yet predictible path.

You were strong, smart, focused, responsible, gainfully employeed, organized, financially stable and a practicing Christian, but you didn’t WAIT for the same. You gave in to the flair; the cute, flirty train wreck that was your W. She had TWO children out of wedlock, and was in financial ruin living with her parents. She hadnt ‘seen the light’, re-devoted her life to Christ, or changed her life in any dramatic way. This is where you thumbed your nose at God, and NOW you’re demanding answers? You really have some nerve, imo. That’s pretty ballsy.

Reminds me of the song we used to sing in Sunday school, about building your house on a foundation of sand. That’s why people you know said they could see this coming… she was a train wreck long before she met you, and continues to be now that you are gone.

She was sand, and you didn’t care. She was cute and she liked you, and you didn’t THINK about anything else. It FELT good to be with her. She shared very few of YOUR values. You ignored the many red flags.

All this talk about your marriage; the shopping, the vacations, the designer clothes, the hobbies, the time away at work... I didn’t hear anywhere that you prayed as a family and made God the focus of the family. All I see is that if your wife pouted, she got what she wanted. That is NOT leading your family in a Godly way. You choose her over God again and again. Why do you think God should make this all right now?

I seem to remember you saying you two did have SF before marriage. How did God figure into that?

You know how Harley says how Marrieds should guard against friendships with the OS? Christians must guard themselves against these attractive, yet very lost people. Sure we can be ‘attracted’, but so what... we don’t allow ourselves to get to involved because, as Harley says, it’s a slippery slope, and before you know it, we’re involved with people without the same values as ourselves.

That’s what I think. You are scape-goating God for your mistakes. I’d apologize, quickly - Dru

I disagree, she was someone who found Christ, admitted she was a sinner and turned around her life.
Now who's being judgmental. Those things were in her past, and who am I to continue to hold that against her. I saw a woman who was worshipping God, trying to raise her daughter right, and someone who didn't want to continue to make the same mistakes she made before.
This is right, and you are on what I feel I did wrong. I was supposed to be a "mature" Christian, and I wasn't the spiritual leader.

You recall wrong, the first time we had SF was on our wedding night.

Nope, I'm trying to find my way back. I'm looking for God and trying to learn what he wants me to learn out of this, and I don't think I understand the lesson.

I don't understand where I am supposed to go from here.

I do understand that many folks are telling me to draw closer to God. I'm saying I'd be happy to, but the standard things that are supposed to work, prayer, quiet time, repentance, etc, don't seem to be working.

Why don't I understand? Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to clarify that for me?

T

Hi Tony,

Yes, I am very judgemental. We are SUPPOSED to be judgemental. Going with the flow leads you right to hell, if your not careful. We are SUPPOSED to evaluate the circumstances before us and make a decision as to what is best for us based upon our values. You'd expect your DD to have common sense about selecting a mate. You'd want her to weed out the riff-raff, right? Someone's history is a very, very valid piece of a person.


You may have answered your question. Right there. You got WAY away from God. I'm not sure this pity-party isnt getting you any closer. I know you are hurt, I know you will need to heal, but on and on with this why me, tell me, show me, me, me, me... The 'me' path may not be the way to your answer.


Are you serious? A zillion souls in the universe, and you think you deserve a private audience with God? FAITH. No answers, FAITH. If there were answers, we wouldnt need FAITH, would we? What would you tell your DH if she was mad at God because something didnt go her way? - Dru

(my apologies on the pre-m SF... thank you for clarifying)

You go to work. You go to church. You work on your relationship with God and your DH. You make friends and get involved with your hobbies. You look for good Christian women to date. You do what any other recently divorced Christian does.

That's it.

Dru et al.

I appreciate all the responses here. Sometimes I think you folks are the ones selling God short.

I don't EXPECT a personal audiance with God. However, the way I understand Christianity is that we have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ who we believe is God incarnate.

So unless I understand totally wrong, my expecation to hear from God and to ask for clarity is not unreasonable.

My position as the created means I'm HIS lump of clay. I cannot tell the potter what to do. However, looking at many Psalms, I can and am supposed to cry out when I need help, when I feel distant from God, when I'm tempted, when I face trials.

Here, read this again. I may have mis-led some folks when I referred to Romans 7, as you may have thought I was talking about the first half.

Here is what I was talking about:


Read that last part, starting at verse 14, and look at the end, who will rescue me.

My friends, Paul gets what I'm thinking and feeling. You can tell me to do this, or do that, or do the other, but the sin nature that is in me will fight that.

Look at my signature, I can do this, I just can't do it alone.

So what is wrong with me asking for help, admitting that I'm powerless relative to God, surrendering myself to him. Yet I get frustrated because even when I try to do what I believe he wants me to do, I am still where I was when this started, not changed, not better, and if I believe what you folks are saying, certainly not pleasing to God.

I get the feeling you folks think this should just be a slam dunk.

Well Paul gets it...


This seems to contradict so many things. We here that God loves everyone and desires that none shall perish.


So we see in one passage where God chooses some to "strike down" such as Pharoah, or chooses to "hate" such as Esau.

He chooses to harden the hearts of folks such as Pharoah.

What if I'm pursing God and I'm not one of the "elect" the chosen?

So maybe God can just tell me if he wants me or not. Scripture is contradictory on this idea. I can find scriptures that refer to the elect or the chosen, and I can find scriptures that indicate that God desires that none shall perish.

Then of course, there is John 3:16, that I simply have to believe in Christ to have eternal life.

I don't expect any of this to change the fact that I'm divorced, but I'd like to think the promise of peace in the midst of the storm would be present.

So yeah, I'm confused and I expect God to make the answer clear to me. Why, because his scripture has me very confused. I thought I understood, but when I look at my life and what I should expect from His Holy Spirit, I see a great big disconnect.

I expected that when I accepted Christ as my savior that the Holy Spirit would help me make him Lord too.

I am as much a creation of God as anyone one else here. If David can cry out to God, then why can't I?

I'm not asking for special treatment, or thinking I'm more deserving to hear from Him than anyone else. I really would like God to personally engage everyone who asks Him.

The God I seek to serve is not so busy or powerless that He cannot speak to me, or anyone. He could speak to everyone who has ever lived, or ever will live, simultaneously, and carry on individual conversations with those folks as if He were speaking solely with that person.

Since God is sovereign, He chooses the terms of a relationship. He chooses to speak or not to speak and how he speaks.

I am but a man, and without that help from the Holy Spirit, there is no way I can understand.

What if God has chosen me to be "Pharoah" to be a bad example without hope?

I am really beginning to believe this. If I cannot understand God, or find what He has for me in his scriptures, then it has to mean that God's Holy Spirit is not in me.

If I've asked for this indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and it is being withheld from me, then it's because God chooses otherwise. I can only ask. I can ask for wisdom and understanding, and guidance and knowledge.

I don't think anyone here can answer this except for God. I'm just lamenting that I've been unable to "hear" God or to experience the peace promised. Not the absence of problems, but that peace.

Is that clear? Probably not. God knows, and many say he cares. I'm not so sure of that.

Please don't take this is that I'm disappointed because I'm divorced. This is much deeper than that. I see it this way, the divorce was a symptom of the problem.

The problem itself was and still is, my relationship with God. Further compounding the problem is that relative to God, I'm powerless to start or repair that relationship.

I can obey the law as Paul writes, but the law doesn't save and it doesn't provide peace. We still have the struggle where our flesh and our spirit "fight" and that certainly isn't peaceful.

I'm probably rambling now, but it gives you an idea of what I'm wrestling with. I feel it's an impossible task without God. Further, I feel like I'm without God, therefore, I feel defeated.

T

Tony...

Your posts really tug at me. Probably because they remind me of the worst period in my life, after I had lost a child, and struggled desperately with faith. Speaking just for myself, I don't in any way think this kind of struggle should be a "slam-dunk". Mine was absolutely soul-wrenching.

I don't know that I have any answers for you, but I want to share some thoughts.


Sometimes we are not capable of drawing closer to God...we are in too much pain, there's too much anger, we feel too abandoned and hurt. Prayer didn't work for me back then either. I spent months driving to work every day alternating between begging God for answers and screaming at God in anger. I didn't feel like God was with me; in fact, I pretty much felt that his back was turned. I felt like God might strike me down for such anger...however, a wise person told me that God is big enough to take my anger, and that yelling at God was better than disconnecting from Him. I didn't really believe it, but in retrospect, she was right. Angry questioning was a better response than turning away, or pretending to accept what I could not yet accept and becoming a hypocrite.


I truly believe that the Holy Spirit does instruct us, comfort us and guide us. However, I also believe that His timetable is not ours. In my case, He did not reach out to me until I had pretty well exhausted myself with trying to figure things out, and accepted that I might never have answers.

Tony, I really hope that things start to feel less painful for you. You are in my prayers.

Kathi

I was always fascinated that you were a religous man. It's so unusual for your type. ESTJ's need for PROOF of everything is overwhelming. YOUR need for proof is overwhelming. ESTJ's are notorously impatient, too. I didnt see how and ESTJ balanced it all.

But what I keep seeing from you is your questioning and total LACK of faith. You arent balancing it all. You want proof, and you want it now. It all makes sense to me now.

Work hard, keep your nose clean, and WAIT for inspiration. I'm not sure you're going to get a more accurate answer than that.

I mean, I sure dont know the master plan for my life... I dont think alot of people have this clarity. Do you? Do you really think that most people have 'Received a Message', from God, giving them their life's plan? I didnt think I was so unusual in NOT knowing...

FAITH, remember?

What if God has a plan for you, but it wont be realized for a few years? What if he's trying to teach you patience. Wouldnt that be funny?

Maybe God wants you to learn how to become more spiritual? Do you think you are modeling Faith to your DS? Again, what would you tell your DS if she were upset with God because something didnt work out? I really want to know wht you would say.

I dont think Job ever knew why everything happened to him, did he? I'm sure he asked.

There aren't any black & white answers to all this scripture. The bible contradicts itself in several areas. It was written by many people, translated, and passed down over time. Some things are not to be taken literally. You will find no flow charts in the bible.

You can ask all you like. The answer may not be obvious for quite some time. And all this foot stomping will not make this happen any sooner. You are demanding the potter work on YOUR schedule.

I see many areas to work on... your lack of FAITH is a glaring example. Are you praying with your DD when you are with her, outside of church? Are you in the bible study class at your church? Are you working of developing your 'feeler' side of your personality? What are you doing to become a more well-rounded person? Art class? Flower arranging? Go throw some pots like GG?

I think it's pretty clear... God wants us to live a good, Christian life. Period. Do it. Why is not important. What ELSE he may have in mind, really, is none of your business. He's the potter, right? Why would the clay care? You have GOT to get out of your head for a while. Maybe that's the lesson, for now?

God was NOT the center of your married life. What if that's the lesson and God wants you to find a better mate now that yours has fallen? Well that wont happen overnight. Maybe God wants you to chill out and have some faith? Maybe he's waiting for you...?

My point is, there will not be a clear answer. Do good, carry on... maybe your reward is in Heaven? Are you going to carry on like this for the next 50 years?

'I' think your are obsessing on this. Instead of 'thinking' about being a Christian, try getting out more, doing more Christian things? You are hurt, and stuck in a rut... Shake it up. I'm sure there is a school or church who could really use your computer skills. I understand you have some top-notch BBQ skills... I'm sure there's a Youth Home that would be thrilled with a special dinner. How about a woman's shelter?

'Mom left dad, dad fell apart and gave up on God'. Is that the story you want your DD telling? How about 'Mom got a boyfriend, and dad became an amazing person. Guess mom was holding dad back'. Doesnt that sound better?

Now I'm rambling. Be patient. Have faith. Please take care - Dru