I do have to admire the way you love to pick fights and justify what you doing. I'll tell you what, I'll make a few comments to the latest tirade you posted, and then I'm done because you need some time to think about and digest all that has been offered. I spent hours trying to understand you and offer some specific, targeted, advice on how you could get some of those questions answered, but instead of following up on them and asking more questions about areas of confusion, you prefer to flop back into your comfort zone of adversarial posting. Tony, I'm not getting into an "argument zone" with you. I am NOT a trained counselor and neither is anyone else who has posting to try to help you. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, imperfect and not "all knowing" ourselves, who are simply trying to help. Tony there are limits. My STRONG suggestion is that rather than "bring it to MB," you should be in counseling with a trained biblical based counselor.

So for now, some closing thoughts on your latest statements.


Tony, there's not one of us who thinks it's easy. It hasn't been for me and I'm sure it's not been easy for anyone else. We KNOW that. We don't need you tell us it's not easy for you. But you are using that as an "Excuse" to argue and defend, rather than leaning on and depending on God. You blame it on being a "perfectionist." There are several tantalizing directions that I could go with that one, but let me just offer one thing for you to think about. There's only been one perfect human, and that was Jesus Christ. "Perfection" as you define it is a mirage and a falsehood. "Perfectionist" is NOT the same thing as trying to do the best job possible. Perfectionist is psychological "fault." But you know that, because as a "perfectionist" you already know that anything you do is not "good enough" to be perfect.

Tony, I understand the pain you are feeling about your lost marriage and the way that your family has been "torn up."

Sadly, yours is not the first, nor will it be the last. But it IS yours and not someone elses, so you feel the pain more intensely and personally. We know that.


Tony, that question HAS been answered. Just in case you missed it let me restated it. I understand how you "might think that" because you are either mad at God or don't understand that it is NOT God's will. It is your wife's will and the will of a fallen world (including our court system).

Can God use these painful circumstances to accomplish some good? Certainly. That IS one of the things that God does for his children when bad things happen in their lives. We live in a FALLEN, sinful world. We live in a corrupt and broken world. God will not use your daughter to "teach you a lesson" by giving her over to sinful people. The WORLD and sin does that. What God will do is give you the strength to continue to work for good. God will give you the opportunity to witness to your daugther about God and how to follow God in obedience even when bad things happen in our lives.



No, Tony, the underlying question is NOT "how can I better hear God." That may be YOUR underlying question, but it's not God's. God's underlying question is simple, "If you love me, obey my commands." It is NOT "hear Me speak audibly to you in such a manner as you choose for Me to speak to you." I spent a lot of time trying to give you some perspective on God's answers to prayer, including His silence at times. But instead of following up on that, you've retreated to argumentation about basically unimportant things, i.e. differing opinions (whaaaattt? You expected everyone to have the same opinions???) and your feelings.

You write that for the first time "I'm hearing a clear message from God, and you tell me you don't see any change."

Tony, if you think God spoke directly to you and gave you a "clear messsage," then far be it from me to disagree with God. All I will say is that I've seen NO evidence in your postings where you have been having a "one on one" conversation with God. Yes, you've been WANTING God to speak directly to you, but you've not been getting that "want" fulfilled and you've been going on and on about that.

God may well be telling you "move on," but more likely it's your "Taker" beginning to kick in to "protect you" and your emotions. Tony, when God speaks directly to someone, there is usually NO misunderstanding or room for "other" interpretation. God is "loud and clear."

Tony, in another week I will reach the 3 year mark of posting on MB. For months I had set that as the date that I would, for all intents and purposes, retire from the system. I have tried to "comfort others with the comfort that I received" from God and to speak plainly and, sometimes, directly when I see obfuscation and obstinance, because CHANGE IS hard for all of us. It has been hard for me, and I have learned some hard lessons by going through the fire. However, I am also human and make mistakes. I don't need the aggravation that MB has become, nor do I need to spend hours on the system anymore.

I am "half-way" into the projected 6 year recovery timeframe for my marriage. I'm learning patience, but I don't really need to hear you or anyone else tell me that I'm "expecting" them to change according to "my timetable." That rubbish and you know it. We all change, quickly or slowly, according to God's timetable, and our stubbornness.

Tony, you have asked a lot questions. People have tried to support you, but then you "go after them" for not being "perfect" in their advice or prayers for you and your marriage.

It is obvious that you no longer think that I can be of "help" to you, so I am going to turn it over to others who may be better suited to help you.

May God give you His peace, comfort, and wisdom in the coming months and years.

God bless.

P.S. You mentioned that you've been "hearing" a lot about forgiveness lately and that perhaps God has been speaking to you through sermons and messages. So let me leave you with one last "gift." Here is a link to a thread on forgiveness that I began after my first year in recovery. Perhaps God has a few things in there for you that may help you.

Forgive? Trust? Really? What has been learned in the past year?

And while I'm at it, here's a link to some "stories" that might help you on those "dark days." Read them and let God "speak" to your heart.

Timely story for days when things seem bleak.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

I'll resist the urge to argue who is listening to whom, who is tirading and so forth.

I'm glad it is so clear to you, because things are pretty muddy at my end of the pool. I've read every word written and quoted here, and have tried to digest every bit of it.

I honestly can say that much of it is contradictory. Perhaps that's what God wants. You say God is loud and clear, yet scripture says in 1 Kings 19:11-13


God whispered before He spoke to Elijah. We still don't know if the words He spoke were loud or a whisper.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to sort this all out. You are telling me God will be loud and clear.

So if this were so, then why can't I hear Him?

Frankly, I get lost in a lot of what you write, I can't apply it. I don't know how to just have faith, how to just trust.

Why? Because I've tried that, and I've failed. I've failed, not God, not the folks here at MB, I've failed. I've cried out asking for something concrete from the Lord to hold onto. I've asked for something that will help restore what little faith I have left.

So, I get the impression that you WANT me to be satisfied with the answer that this is a fallen world. Things happen because we live in a fallen world.

That is the most unsatisfying answer there is. At least Romans 8:28 gives hope, saying this is a fallen world seems defeatist.

What is wrong with asking God to deliver the victory? Or even asking if there is a victory to be delivered?

What is God's idea of victory in this situation? If I'm so bad that God had to seperate me from my wife, then let Him tell me. Or if she was so bad, or if He didn't really want us together, then just let me know, so I can go about doing God's will.

If God wants me to wait for her, then let Him tell me. That's not a TAKER talking, that's someone who is ernestly seeking God's will.

I can obey every command and still not know what God wants me to do, still not have a relationship with Him. The Pharasees were very good at the law, and we would both agree that most of them had a lousy relationship with God.

David wasn't always so great at the law, but he had an excellent relationship with God.

I'd rather be David, and I believe God would prefer that as well.

I don't use my first born perfectionist nature as an excuse. It explains who I am, it helps you understand how I'm made, what I've become. It's not an excuse, it's a state, and one that I'm not proud of. (Yet I can end a sentance with a preposition <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm going to say that you don't have patience, because if you did, you would have set some sort of boundary instead of just cutting off the conversation. You are out of patience with this dialog.

You may be right, I need time to absorb all of this information.

To those who've asked if I have any quiet time, most of my time away from work is quiet time. I don't play the radio, or watch TV when I'm home. I do read a lot, and sometimes I just sit and do nothing.

I do admit, I surf the web too much.

But I don't really need any more quiet time. What I feel I need is to be able to hear more of what God has to say in that time.

Maybe I do need more quiet time for practice, maybe I should just walk away from MB.

Let's start small. I have three questions tor God that I'd like to have clear, unabmigious answers for, preferably by the end of this month.

1. Should I sell my home and move, or simply re-finance, pay off my ex-wife and stay where I am? What does God want me to do regarding this question?

2. Should I try to court my ex-wife?

3. What am I supposed to learn and what growth is God looking for me to do from this experience?

Am I asking too much of God, wanting to know what He wants me to do?

T

Tony, against my "better judgment," I will give it one more try and then you are going to have to "sort it out for yourself" over time. You are looking for the "magic bullet," the "magic answer," the reason why God does not talk to "you" in the manner and way that "you" think you "require." Tony, it does not work that way.




Tony, once again you take a "figure of speech" and turn into something it is NOT. Yes, God spoke to Elijah in a "whisper," but he spoke to Paul in a "loud, clear, unmistakeable, blinding" voice. God spoke softly, as well as loudly, but always clearly to the disciples and to the crowds in the voice of Jesus Christ.

Tony, you can't hear him because you want to "hear him" your way, or at least that's what it seems like to me in reading your messages. God CAN choose to speak "loudly and directly to you" if He chooses to use that "method" of communication. But you need to understand that is a rather rare occurance. God has given us the Scripture as His primary "mode" of communication. God has given us pastors, and teachers, and other Christians to help us with growing in the faith and understanding what Scripture is saying, especially when we face things that are NOT clearly revealed or seem to be confusing or contradictory.

"I honestly can say that much of it is contradictory. "

Tony, the Scripture is NOT contradictory. But you seek to make it so because all you will "accept" is what you want. The "volume" or "manner" that God chooses to speak to us is NOT the issue. His provision for us IS the issue. His love for us IS the issue. That Christ died to reconcile us unto God IS the issue. If God NEVER spoke to you, it would change nothing and not "contradict" Scripture because all that is truly important is that YOU (or me, or anyone else) accept His sacrificial gift of Jesus Christ.

These "apparent discrepancies" of the Bible are a "favorite" for nonbelievers to "latch onto." Yet, if one truly examines them in the context of the Scripture and in the context of the entire Bible, they are easily dealt with and seen as NOT being a discrepancy. If you want more on this I could suggest a book by Haley that is an exhaustive tome on this subject.




Tony, you ask the same question that the disciples asked, because you are human. It's the same question that we "face" at some point because we have not connected with the fact that is NOT our "level" of faith or our own abilities, it is GOD's abundant ability as has been clearly spoken to us in Philippians 4:13, "I can do ALL things THROUGH Christ who gives me strength."

To put it even more loudly and clearly, let me let Jesus Christ himself speak directly to you:



Tony, you confuse loving obedience with selfish motives and legalistic posturing. As for David, are you sure you want to be an Adulterer and Murderer? The REASON that David had a "good relationship" with God is because when faced with his own sin there were "no excuses." David immediately and completely humbled himself before God. God forgave the sin, but did NOT release David from the consequences. Sin HAS consequences and the ONLY consequence that we have been "released" from is the "eternal death penalty" for sin. Christ paid that price in full for us.

Let's start small. I have three questions tor God that I'd like to have clear, unabmigious answers for, preferably by the end of this month.

1. Should I sell my home and move, or simply re-finance, pay off my ex-wife and stay where I am? What does God want me to do regarding this question?

2. Should I try to court my ex-wife?

3. What am I supposed to learn and what growth is God looking for me to do from this experience?

Am I asking too much of God, wanting to know what He wants me to do?

No Tony, you aren't "asking too much of God." But you are perhaps telling God, "answer me in the manner I want and within ONE month or my relationship with you is OFF!" Now, Tony, who IS being the "impatient one?"

1. You do whatever you want to. God is not interested in your material possessions, only that you be a steward of the material possessions, great or small, that He entrusts to you.

2. Court or not court. God is NOT interested in your "feelings" or your wife's "feelings." God is interested in your souls. Adulterers (unrepentant) WILL NOT be heaven and all the material possession and "niceties" of life and human relationships will not matter if one is heaven and one is hell.

3. The answer to this question is what this entire thread has been about. It is called the process of Sanctification, of becoming more "Christ-like" as you "mature" in the faith. Add to that "reliance upon God" and not upon self, and you have the basis of what God is wanting you to learn.

Tony, it's time to soften that 'hard-heartedness' of yours and "surrender" to God. Lay it all down. Give it all over. Accept whatever God wills in your life, unquestioning because HE is sovereign and HE is YOUR loving Father. Let Him lead your life. Remember that God will not do something for you that you could do for yourself, He is not a "wish machine" granting your desires as you perceive them to be.

God bless Tony. I KNOW it's difficult, but you WILL come to that point. Jesus will continue searching for you until He finds you and leads you. The indwelling Holy Spirit will continue to convict you and whisper to you until it becomes so loud you can't ignore it.

(((((Tony)))))

Tony,

I was looking all over the place for something, anything that would help me minister to you about hearing God speak to you. After a lot of searching, this stood out in my mind:

3. You Must ELIMINATE The DISTRACTIONS.

This is one of the things that a pastor named Ray Jones had preached in a sermon as ways to hear God speak to you. The website is here -- **edit**

The reason I think this stuck out for me was b/c you had said this:



Now bear w/me for a moment. You know what your XW is like. You know that your XW is very far away from God. Could it be possible that your XW being in your life FOR RIGHT NOW (notice - I didn't say 4ever?) was distracting you from hearing what God was saying to you? You kept getting conflicting messages regarding your M. Don't get me wrong -- GOD's will is very clear -- He wants M's to be reconciled. That has NEVER changed. What I am saying is that He might have allowed this D to happen b/c you weren't hearing Him clearly. Your XW was a distraction b/c you were trying to focus on that plus your R w/God at that point. Now that this D has gone through, like I told you in another post, maybe it's time to let go of the ROPE - Your M - & now will be the time that you will be able to hear God speaking to you. And if you look at what has just happened to you recently concerning the messages you thought you had gotten, that could be happening for you. So see, God IS answering your prayers. He knows what is in your heart - You have to ask yourself - Are you willing to give up your M in order to get closer to Him? I think you are. Are you willing to TEMPORARILY push your marital issues aside & get closer to Him? I think you are. Notice I said TEMPORARILY. Just b/c a D goes through, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that it is completely OVER. God could very well be working out a divine plan of making YOUR M a Miracle Marriage Restoration. If you have doubts about it, then we need to find lupolady b/c she is getting remarried after 2 YEARS of D. So, pushing your M aside, this may very well be what YOU NEEDED in order to hear God clearly the way you have been asking Him to reveal Himself to you.



Tony,

You have GOT to focus on one thing at a time. What is it YOU want to accomplish? Now that you do not have the DISTRACTION of trying to hold on to that M, what do YOU want to do w/your life?

Tony, none of us knows for certain what God wants us to do w/our lives except to make Him first & foremost - Love Him w/all of our minds, our hearts & our souls. This is what Jesus has COMMANDED from us. Then, to love our neighbors as ourselves - this INCLUDES your XW. Your C w/her will be limited. So, in your C that you have w/her FROM NOW ON, be loving towards her. Not in a husbandly way, but a neighborly way, if you KWIM. And then, we have the 10 commandments.

You're at a point in your life now that you have so many questions that have been unanswered & you're so unsure of what to do next. Everyone has been there at some point in their lives. Things are tossed from the applecart & we go, Now what do I do? This is natural. For anyone to say that they have NEVER questioned God, they're lying.

Yes, I am in a recovering M, but there have been times that I have expected God to answer me a certain way b/c I have believed it w/my whole being, yet He didn't. I have to think about when those times were, I can't think off the top of my head, but there have been those times.

Out of everything you've written, I think this is the most profound thing you've said regarding YOUR life:



Let me ask you -- Out of all the things you could do to help others, what is the one thing that you have a passion for? Volunteer or career. This could very well be Christ's mission for YOU. The goal here is for you to SERVE GOD, so now, pick YOURSELF up, & serve God in the best way you know how.

I had a passion for getting to know God and saving my marriage. I failed at both.

Perhaps I afraid to have a passion for anything, because I choose the wrong things, or things I cannot do.

My passion is and always has been to build the family I did not have growing up. I failed. I don't know if I'm being told to wait, to try again, or just be alone for the rest of my life.

So when you tell me to let go, you realize you are telling me to let go of what I'm passionate about.

What I have always wanted was a family. My father never married my mother, she was briefly married to my sister's father. I never met my father, and grew up with a great-great aunt and uncle who took care of me most of the time. I was never really close to my mother, and she has been little help in all of this. One evening when I wanted to speak with her about this, instead of listening to how I felt, she tried to change the subject to a printer problem she had with her computer.

She was rarely around when I was growing up, often working two jobs. The best compliments I can come up with for my mom are she didn't give me up or kill me as a fetus, and she worked hard.

So I just wanted the kind of family that God designed families to be.

So this divorce is just another in a long string of family disappointments. Physically abandoned by my father, emotionally abandoned by my mother, and now, abandoned by the woman I trusted with my heart. But even worse, another child has to suffer through this.

Faith is looking at what God has done before and believing He will make something good from this.

So how can I have faith that God will make a stronger family when I have yet to experience this in my life? I have faith that God will keep me healthy, because I've seen him heal me from cancer. I have faith that God will ensure that I have a place to live and food to eat, because I've experienced that in my life.

But, given my view of family life in almost 40 years of life, I don't have the experience to have faith that God heals broken families.

So here is where I'm asking God to step up and give me something to bolster my faith. Not because He is doing anything wrong, but because some much pain, suffering and disappointment has eroded my ability to have faith in this area of my life.

I'm really glad it is clear to others.


T

ps,

FH, I read what you wrote, until I saw that you misunderstood. When you took what I meant about the words posters wrote here being contradictory and interpreted that into me believing scripture was the contradiction, I just gave up.

Tony, perhaps I "misunderstood" because you are not clearly delineating what you are saying. You say that people are giving you what appears to you to be "contradictory" opinions, yet what they are all giving you is Scripture, and you use Scripture to "show" the contradiction (the clear implication being that Scripture is "contradictory"). If you want "clarity," then be clear and precise in what you are writing.

Bottom line, your "problem" is not with any apparent "contradictions" in the advice of other posters, your "problem" is with God and His NOT behaving like, and doing things the precise way, you want and "will" things to be. Since we are the ones talking to you, yes, we are a convenient target for your arguments. Up to a point, we are all willing (or at least I am) to be tolerant and patient. You seek answers NOW! I understand that. We are all pretty much that way and it takes learning and accepting that God is NOT a human being and that God does things His way and in His timing. God decides, not man. God commands, man obeys. God is in control of eternity, not man. Evil exists until God no longer "tarries" in coming to "make all things new."

Tony, one more time let me tell you that I agree with you that "it's not fair." Nothing about sin is "fair." Troubles and persecutions ARE going to be a part of our lives and they are NOT "fun." Evil and wrongs HURT. God knows that because Christ LIVED it and took it all upon Himself. When you HURT, God hurts. He took upon Himself all of the hurts of sin, past, present, and future. The sins of "today" hurt Jesus today and will continue to hurt Jesus until God remakes the world and sin and pain are banished forever.

So how do I know you are impatient and unwilling to "take in" any advice that doesn't "fit" with your will for HOW you get your answers? Let's just look at what you said in response to my entire last post that I quoted for you at the beginning of this thread.

You said: [color:"blue"]"I just gave up." [/color]

That's it. You just let your emotions take control. You let your Taker take over and "protect" you from a perceived "attack." You dismissed everything that was said in the entire post because it was "easier" to just have a "hissy fit" over something that you perceived as an "attack." You said; [color:"blue"]"When you took what I meant about the words posters wrote here being contradictory and interpreted that into me believing scripture was the contradiction," [/color] interpreted that as an "attack," and then "shut down."

Tony, I am sorry about your past and your upbringing. But I also think that it may have a lot to do with your current struggle. You said earlier that you "accepted Christ" when you were a child (around 6th grade, if memory serves). Yet now you state how "messed up" your childhood was. So I wonder just how much of your acceptance of Christ was an emotional response to "escape" your childhood mess. Christ was a "safe haven" and would be the "father" who loved you, took care of you, and granted you your "wishes."

Don't get me wrong, Tony. If you truly were convicted of your sinful state, confessed, and accepted Jesus Christ, you WERE saved at that point and ARE saved today. But, you would seem to be "stranded" in spiritual "infancy." You are still existing on "milk" when you should, now in your 40's, be on to "solid food."

Here, to me, is the most "telling" part of the infancy problem in your relationship with God and possibly with your marriage as well;

[color:"blue"]"I had a passion for getting to know God and saving my marriage. I failed at both.

Perhaps I afraid to have a passion for anything, because I choose the wrong things, or things I cannot do.

My passion is and always has been to build the family I did not have growing up. I failed. I don't know if I'm being told to wait, to try again, or just be alone for the rest of my life.

So when you tell me to let go, you realize you are telling me to let go of what I'm passionate about.

What I have always wanted was a family." [/color]

Tony, don't you think that most of us, if not all of us, here on MB feel that we've "failed" in the marriage department? What makes you think that your desire or "fantasy" of what you want in a marriage is much different from that which most of us want/wanted?

But you keep returning to what "you can do." Tony, I know it sounds like a "broken record," but the "what you can do" is to follow God in humble obedience. You must understand that in a Christian marriage, God IS a partner in that marriage covenant. God will always be faithful to the marriage because God is faithful to ALL of His covenants. We humans, however, can mess up and be unfaithful to Him. We do it all the time. Sometimes it's a small "mess up," and sometimes it's a huge "mess up" like committing adultery. It is HUMANS who "harden their hearts" and it is God who "allows them to harden their hearts" because God will NOT force us to love and obey Him.

The point of this in relation to a marriage, yours with your ex-wife or yours with any believer in the future, is that you both need to learn to walk with Christ, becoming more "Christ-like" through the months and years. As you individually and as a couple grow closer to God, you WILL grow closer to each other at the same time. Like most journeys, it will almost "sneak up on you." You will may wake up one day and be "surprised" at how close you and your wife are...but it's not really a surprise, it's a promise of God to those who are walking with Him in growing through the process of Sanctifiction.

This is what has been called the "triangle of marriage." The visualization of it can be seen as follows:

.........God
........../\
........./--\
......../----\
Wife/____\Husband


Tony, "wishing and hoping" are fine up to a point, but then it takes doing so in accordance with God's will. Think of it like this; it's NOT "practice that makes perfect," it is "perfect practice makes perfect." If you practice the incorrect skills over and over, you WILL ingrain a "habit," but it will be an incorrect habit. To make a practice result in the "good" desired result, that practice must be founded upon solid, correct, fundamentals, even if it is hard and uncomfortable at first. In short, to result in "perfection," one must practice the skills that are "perfect" or expect a "flawed result."

In Christianity, there may be many "batting styles" that are equally effective, but they all use the same basic "fundamentals." Batting practice is no good if the fundamentals are not used. If you don't learn how to hit the various pitches that WILL enter your life (strike zone), then you will not be a "star player" and will continue to struggle. It's not easy, it does take a lot of commitment and patience. It does take learning new skills, understanding the mechanics, applying the mechanics to the physical skills that God has give YOU, not someone else.

Tony, God doesn't care if you were raised in the slums of the Dominican Republic or had a "silver spoon" in your mouth. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. YOUR perception and your commitment to the fundamentals may be different because of where you "came from." It IS often easier for someone to think that they are "entitled" just because of "who they are" or "where they came from," but God does not play "favorites."

God is quite simple regardless of where any believer came from or what their past was like; "If you loved me, you would obey my commands."

It is "surrender." It is following Him in humble obedience and love for what God did for ME, because ALL, regardless of past, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not one of us is "better than" another. YES, we may be different places along the walk to "maturity" in Christ, but there will always be those who "know" more and who "know" less that we ourselves. ONLY God knows it all.

Tony, this is a "key point," Love (and your emotion of passion) is a VERB, not a noun. God does NOT command you to succumb to emotions or to react emotionally. Those "feelings" may well accompany true love and be a result of actually acting in love, but "love" itself is a command. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself." How does one "love" in this manner? As has been said before; "If you loved me you would obey my commands."

Love = doing, not feeling, first. "Feelings" come later as one of the results of the action over time.

God bless.

FH,

I gave up because you have already decided how I feel and what I mean to suit your POV regarding me.

I have been obediant since WW walked out. My obediance has earned me the title of ex Husband.

My obediance has not gotten me any closer to God.

My daily scripture reading has not gotten me any closer to God.

Sitting quietly has not gotten me any closer to God.

Weekly worship has not gotten me any closer to God.

You seem to discount my feelings. Well there is a big disconnect between my feelings and what I know in my head. I cannot resolve that disconnect. I try to behave in accordance to that knowlege, but the feelings you said would come have not come.

I don't give my troubled past as a plea for sympathy. I give it because it is a fact that helps describe both how I got here, why it's hard to view God as a heavenly father, and why I feel the way I do.

There is a feeling aspect of faith. The term peace is used repeatedly in scripture, and the context is as a feeling or sensation.

So tell me, what's wrong for wanting the feelings to line up with the knowledge?

Everytime I read what you write, I feel like I've been run over by a truck. What I wrote is twisted and broken so you can make your point. When I do point out that you mis-interpreted something, you turn it around on me and say I need to be more clear.

Ok, fair enough, let's do this in 100 words or less per post, so that our true meanings are not lost in a sea of words.

Simplify and clarify.

I also respectfully ask, and will do this myself, that we verify we understand each other before using or picking apart the post of another person.

So to get started, let me ask this. In your last post, did you mean that I am 100% responsible for ensuring my message is understood?

T

Tony, wow, I'm not sure what to say ever that would make a difference. I would like to tell you that in the past on other forums I have sought ForeverHers advice and have not always liked what he had to say because he speaks biblical truth and I didn't necessarily always want to hear it. Many times I would rather that he say it was okay to divorce my bum of a husband, etc however he didn't. FH always spoke the truth in love and it was biblical. Those are merely my thoughts on FH's postings though.

I am concerned though that you place so much emphasis on your feelings. Just a question...how many times have you FELT right and then found out you were wrong? If you felt you were right then you didn't need faith to know you were right. I just don't believe that feelings are that big a part of our faith in the Lord. My thoughts.

Tony, there are days I don't feel like a Christian, but I know I am one. I know it because I accepted the Lord long ago and I know he resides within me.

As for your past...Tony, I was a sexually abused child and so I know full well how you speak of knowing God as a heavenly father. I get that, really I do. However, at some point, I had to ask God to heal those wounds and help me understand His goodness, His discipline, etc.

This above all though really troubles me. You write Tony, When I praise and worship the Lord, I feel Him in my presence or vice versa and I cannot imagine saying this. When I spend quiet time in my bible, when I cry to the Lord, when I pray, when I sing hymns to the Lord I FEEL closer to the Lord. Those words just truly bother me. I have to wonder if there's unforgiven sin in your life, have you not forgiven someone else, is your time in worship real or fake? I don't ask to argue - really I don't, it's just that I cannot imagine reading, praying, and worshiping and not being closer to the Lord.

I recently heard a sermon on christian television about how people tithe 10% of their income and expect God to pour out blessings and then go home and shack up with someone, or not forgive someone, or steal and expect God to work miracles in their lives. The point of the sermon was to examine the whole of our lives.

Tony, I once wrote to you about the power of our words. One of the things I keep noticing is that you have more money without your wife, you have more peace without her, and yet, you are mad at God for not intervening into this divorce process.

I really want for you all that God has to offer. God does offer peace in the midst of absolutely everything going wrong. God really does offer salvation, He offers eternal life, He offers a table prepared in the midst of our enemies, He offers forgiveness and sooooo much more. It's really not about what we can 'get' from God though. It's about our personal relationship with Him. And, that is why it bothers me that you are spending time daily in the scripture, you do weekly worship, etc and don't believe you are closer to the Lord. That bothers me and maybe others have a better explanation as to how that happens - I just don't. I would really like to encourage you to ask God what is blocking the relationship.

In Christ,

Angelia

Maybe feel is not the right word. Other than the idea of peace, which I do believe is a feeling, what I looking for is to experience God, to sense that God is there.

There is a difference between knowing there is a God and sensing that He is at work in my life.

Does that make it more clear?

T

I'm not telling you to give it up completely. I'm telling you to let go of it TEMPORARILY. Think of it this way -- Remember the healing story of when Jesus healed the girl that everyone thought was dead? Jesus told them that she wasn't dead, she was just sleeping & he took her by the hand & her spirit returned to her (Luke 8:49-56). They all laughed at Jesus b/c the girl was dead. But Jesus rose her up. This could very well happen to your M so what I'm asking you to do is to change your focus a little bit & reach inside & pull out something else that would let you HELP OTHERS that you have a burning desire. Something that would enable you to serve God in the best way you know how. Can you sing? Can you teach? Can you cook on a breakfast team? Something to do some kind of outreach ministry. Giving to others would be the best way to take the focus off of what has happened & maybe breathe a new life inside of you to feel the power you have of bringing God to other people's lives. And, it would probably help you feel Him around you a lot more.

I can see what you're saying about your family history. It must have been very painful for you to go through all of that. And this happening only adds to it, but let me steer you in a new direction if I may. God knows what has happened & I'm sure He is grieving w/you that your family has chosen NOT to be a family toward you. And He is grieving that your XW chose not to be a part of the family that He had created for you. AND, since He knows how hard it was for you, it could very well be that He wants you to show your YD what it's like to have a real, committed parent who loves her, would NEVER abandon her, would go to the ends of the earth for her. You have no control over what your XW does, only what YOU do. So, make sure that your YD knows in her heart that she is loved & YOU will never abandon her. Use this as an opportunity to turn around all the hurt that was caused to you & give extra love to your YD. She needs you now more than ever. It doesn't matter the quantity of time you spend w/her. You just cherish her all the more when you DO see her or talk to her. Make sure she knows that. It's the QUALITY of time that you spend w/her that counts. When she's w/you or talks w/you, you can use it as an opportunity to show her what a true, love bond is from father to daughter.

As a co-worker of mine told me, Quit telling God how big your storm is. Instead tell the storm how big your God is. Tell that storm that Yes, Tony may have been abandoned as a child & as a husband, but Tony's child will NEVER experience abandonment from HER father. She will learn about love through YOU.

Tony, where to begin?

Let’s begin with this statement you made; “I gave up because you have already decided how I feel and what I mean to suit your POV regarding me.”

No, Tony. This may be a convenient perception you have so that you don’t have to “face” or “deal with” some potentially “hard truths” that might require personal change in yourself. This is always the hardest thing for all of us, getting to the acceptance that we are not perfect and that some things we “took for granted” or “ways we behave and conduct our lives” may actually need to be changed.

Believe me when I tell you Tony that many of the “hard truths” that I am telling you are the result of my own struggle with “affair fallout” and questioning what has occurred. God has used my own situation and struggles to teach me. For my part, it took a broken spirit and a humbleness to say to God, “Okay, teach me. No matter how hard the lesson or how many things I need to change in me, teach me. I surrender all of my wants and desires to you, Lord. You KNOW them already. Married, divorced, or whatever you desire, let me become what you will for me even if I don’t understand what you are doing at this time. Let me rest in my trust of your love for me, and in your desire to have a stronger and closer relationship with me. Let me cling to Psalm 23 when the days, weeks, months, years seem dark and give me the wisdom to just ‘let go’ and let you lead me through any valley. When I waiver, when I feel doubt and fear, comfort me with you presence if that is your will, but remind me that YOU are in control and that all that I need to do is to hold onto Christ’s hand and let Him lead as I follow. Lord, grant me the wisdom to simply ‘surrender’ to you and place my will under yours, just as Jesus did, no matter what the personal ‘cost’ may be.”

Tony, because of this latest post of yours to me, I have gone back to January and pulled out many things you have posted in order to give us a basis of trying to give you answers.

Before going into all of that let me digress for a minute to give you some perspective of what I am trying to do for you, the same sort of thing that was done for my wife and I in our Counseling. It is called “Nouthetic” ministry. While I am not trained in counseling and therefore prone to make ‘mistakes,’ I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and have experienced this application of biblical counseling firsthand. So from the “school of hard knocks and experience,” I try to faithfully pass on some of the same to fellow struggling Christians as they are “staying at their own Holiday Inn Express” for the emotionally and spiritually wounded.

Here is a capsule of what Nouthetic (biblical) Counseling is all about. It is characterized by a strong commitment to the following:

1. The sufficiency of the Scriptures for life and godliness (2Tim 3:15-17; 2Pet 1:2-3).

2. Building disciples in and through the local church ministry where every church member is accountable for and to each other (Acts 2:41; 1Tim 3:15; Eph 4:11-12; Heb 10:24-25).

3. Training disciples through progressive sanctification (change and growth) toward the goal of a being like Christ, who is our model (2Cor 3:18; Rom 8:28-29a).

4. Verbal confrontation out of love for the purpose of Biblical change that pleases God (Col 1:28; Gal 6:1; Rom 5:14; Matt 18:15-17).

As for your request to “do this in 100 words or less per post, so that our true meanings are not lost in a sea of words,” I’ll try. But some subjects require more than a “passing shot” and need to be printed out, researched, digested, etc.

As for my previous postings, have you even saved them to file for review or printed them out for reading? There was, and is, a lot of information in them. Hopefully some of that information will begin to help you in getting the answers you have been “seeking but never finding.”

Lastly, for this post, you asked a question, “In your last post, did you mean that I am 100% responsible for ensuring my message is understood?” That’s a loaded question and we both know that. So let’s be sure that we “define terms” in order for us BOTH to understand…. How do YOU DEFINE “100% responsible” (as you used it in your question) and I’ll tell you if I agree or disagree with your interpretation and understanding of the term?

Also, remember that “understanding” something is NOT the same thing as believing it or accepting it or surrendering to it. The “fallen angels” fully understand who God is and what Jesus Christ did, but they refuse to accept or surrender because it’s not what they “want.”

More later.

God bless.

Perhaps by not arguing with me on nearly everything I write.

Like this, I've said many times that I've failed, I'm trying to do what is right, to find God's will for me. You then write that I'm avoiding the hard truths.

I have to say, Huh?


I've explained why I'm having difficulty with this. I've explained my lack of faith, that I desire something more concrete. My perception is that the promises God makes have not been kept.

So I ask God to either show me how He's keeping the promises, or to show me that I didn't do something I was supposed to do, or that I mis-understand the promise.

Perhaps you are right, there is a hard truth that I need to face. Where I believe you miss the point is that I'm avoiding that truth. Just the opposite, I want that truth placed before me plain as day.

Let me ask this, why this thread if I'm afraid of the hard truth. If I didn't want to know what God wants for me, thinks of me, has planned for me, or needs me to change in my life, then why would I go through this. I could be in bed at 1:24 AM

I believe scripture is sufficient as well. I just don't always know how to apply it. I can quote scripture all day long. That doesn't really mend my heart. Remember Missouri, I would like God to "Show Me" not just tell me. Isn't that what God wants from me, to do more than just say I want to follow Him, but to follow?
I've mentioned to our ministerial staff 3 times that I'm available for ministry, and did seek the help of the church in reaching my WW.

Perhaps I need to find a new church. The couples class I was in doesn't really fit anymore, and the singles class is a bunch of 20 somethings. I'm not sure I fit in there either. Perhaps I can tell them what not to do.
That is my goal as well, to become more Christlike. You know me, Mr Impatient, so if I had my way, it would be a "Road to Damascus experience."

I agree, but make sure you know what you are talking about. There are a couple of reasons someone might run off. They may not be comfortable with being convicted, or they might be annoyed that the confronter has no idea what he is talking about.

I re-read the thread here from time to time. I can't say I've saved it. It changes daily, but I know where to find the information. Frankly, that works best, because if I just saved it, then I can't get to it while at work. But if I know where it is, I can read it from anyplace I can find an internet connection.
I can define 100% responsibility, I have to know everything about you, every bias, how your mind works and what examples and metaphors to use to craft a message that you understand. You have no responsibility if your life experience leads you to interpret something in a manner that may be different from what I intended. If you don't understand what I mean, then the problem is always with how I expressed myself and has nothing to do with your personal preferences, experiences or bias.

T

[color:"blue"] [/color]

[color:"blue"] “Perhaps by not arguing with me on nearly everything I write.” [/color]

Okay TB, if that is how you perceive what I’ve been saying, then that’s how you perceive it and I’ll endeavor to “discuss” rather than “argue.” But let me ask you something to consider; if we have “opposing” or “differing” opinions about something there really are only 3 possibilities in most cases – 1)You are right and I am wrong, 2)I am right and you are wrong, or 3) we are both wrong.

Tony, I use the Scripture as the “final say.” On matters that are clearly revealed by God, I attempt to conform my “opinion” to God’s clearly revealed will whether or not I am personally “comfortable with” or “like” it. God’s will trumps my will every time.

On matters that are clear, there is room for ‘Honest disagreement.’ An example would be the “rapture.” Whether or not someone thinks it will be pre, mid, or post tribulation is irrelevant to the issue of salvation and not a “doctrinal” point for adamant dissention.

So in applying your statement, remember that we both wear the same brand of “perceptive” shoes and see “arguing” in our own way.


[color:"blue"] “Like this, I've said many times that I've failed, I'm trying to do what is right, to find God's will for me. You then write that I'm avoiding the hard truths.

I have to say, Huh?” [/color]
“Huh?” Tony, do you want to discuss with an open mind that you MIGHT be avoiding or unaware of some “hard truths” that might require a change in you….or do you want to argue with me? If what you want is someone to “argue with,” I will decline. If you want to truly seek answers to your questions with and open and malleable heart, I will try to help.

Here’s the “bottom line” from my perspective (and when I use the word “you” in this context it means “everyone,” not just you specifically); will you commit to doing whatever God commands and teaches in the Scripture regardless of how you might feel about it and regardless of whatever uncertainty or “doubts” you might have?

If the answer is “yes,” then we have the basis for proceeding. But if someone is NOT willing to subject their will to God’s will, as Jesus Christ himself did, then there is no point in proceeding.

So, what would be your answer to that question?

I think you have answered that question in the affirmative when you said: [color:"blue"] “I believe scripture is sufficient as well. I just don't always know how to apply it. I can quote scripture all day long. That doesn't really mend my heart. Remember Missouri, I would like God to "Show Me" not just tell me. Isn't that what God wants from me, to do more than just say I want to follow Him, but to follow?” [/color]

So we are going to talk about “how to apply it.” It IS this area of application that you seem to have your greatest struggle with. Since you have not “applied” some things the “right way,” you have struggled. Perhaps this is an area where a “change” is needed. How “hard” it will be to change is unknown, because that will depend greatly on your answer to the question I posed above.

IF Scripture IS “sufficient,” then knowledge (learning) what Scripture says is important, but the more important part of that learning is to “surrender” our human resistance to change and apply that “sufficient truth” to our own life REGARDLESS of any reservations or resistance that we might “feel.” Would you agree?


[color:"blue"] “I've mentioned to our ministerial staff 3 times that I'm available for ministry, and did seek the help of the church in reaching my WW.” [/color]

Okay, such a desire to serve is good. However, let me say that perhaps you “misunderstand” ministry or the “mind-set” of a servant who can be effective in their service to others. You have a lot on your mind right now and a lot of “uncertainty.” You have even expressed that you are unsure if you are actually saved, that you are unsure if God hears you, that you might even be “mad” at God for “allowing” these events in your life to have occurred. Tony, God may well have some ministry service in mind for you, but not until you have learned to walk with Him in Christ-like submission and love. So I would counsel PATIENCE on this area of ministry service right now.

[color:"blue"] “Perhaps I need to find a new church. The couples class I was in doesn't really fit anymore, and the singles class is a bunch of 20 somethings. I'm not sure I fit in there either. Perhaps I can tell them what not to do.” [/color]

Tony, I know nothing about your current church, denomination, etc. to offer any comment. What church do you attend (big, little, in between) and what “denomination” is it and what “denomination” do you most closely identify your beliefs with?

[color:"blue"] “You know me, Mr Impatient, so if I had my way, it would be a "Road to Damascus experience."” [/color]

So would we all, Tony. We all would like it “over” right NOW!!! It rarely works that way and one of the “lessons” that God tries to teach us through all of this IS patience, of “waiting on the Lord” no matter how long the wait. God KNOWS our areas of resistance and HE is patience with us to wait until we soften and accept HIS truths and then apply them to our lives.

[color:"blue"] “I agree, but make sure you know what you are talking about. There are a couple of reasons someone might run off. They may not be comfortable with being convicted, or they might be annoyed that the confronter has no idea what he is talking about. ” [/color]

Fair enough Tony. I am quite “sure” about what I will say to you because I base it upon Scripture, not my own opinion. In cases where I am offering MY opinion, I try to be very careful to state that it is my opinion, ala an opinion concerning the rapture. Anyone is “Free” to disagree with any of my opinions, but none of us is “Free” to disagree with and disobey God and His clear commands.

Being “comfortable” with “being convicted” is not my department or my concern. Take that one up with the Holy Spirit as HE is responsible for convicting the saints of sin in their lives. Getting “annoyed” with someone offering “opinion” where they don’t “know what they are talking about” annoys me as well frequently, so I think I understand what you are trying to say here. That is human nature, but in the “arena” of secular philosophy versus Christian obedience, Christians should seek counsel from other Christians, not from secular advisors.

[color:"blue"] “I re-read the thread here from time to time. I can't say I've saved it. It changes daily, but I know where to find the information. Frankly, that works best, because if I just saved it, then I can't get to it while at work. But if I know where it is, I can read it from anyplace I can find an internet connection.” [/color]

Forgive me for this, and this is MY opinion, but this statement is just an “easy road cop out.” You do an extreme disservice to those who are trying to help you, who are investing THEIR time and energy to try to help you, to be so “cavalier” about how you treat that information. I can tell you that it’s going to take you a long time, on company time, to read all the information and links that I, alone, have already posted for you, to say nothing of everyone else.

Tony, PRINT it out so that you have a “hard copy” that you can take with you, read anytime, anywhere, as many times as necessary, until you understand what has been written there and what just might “apply” to your life or to changes that you might need to make.

Yes, you can read via the Internet anytime you find the time. The posts will be here and will be accessible. But Tony, it’s time for a little old fashioned grunt-work. The printed word, not the “cyberspace” word is something that I think you need right now. See it, touch it, take a pencil or pen and mark on it, scream at it, cry over it, …. Make it tangible and real and right in front of you as a reference to help you get closer to your goal.

[color:"blue"] “I can define 100% responsibility, I have to know everything about you, every bias, how your mind works and what examples and metaphors to use to craft a message that you understand. You have no responsibility if your life experience leads you to interpret something in a manner that may be different from what I intended. If you don't understand what I mean, then the problem is always with how I expressed myself and has nothing to do with your personal preferences, experiences or bias.” [/color]

Tony, your “definition” is, in my humble opinion, unrealistic. ONLY God can know “everything about you, every bias, how your mind works,” etc. Now…God DOES know all that about Tony. God HAS spoken to a lot of that in what HE has said in the Scripture. So quite frankly, I don’t “need” to know you to the extent that you describe. All I really need to know is if YOU consider yourself a “born again Christian.” If you do, then my opinions don’t count for much. God HAS spoken to ALL Christians and in areas where there should be no disagreement, God has been crystal clear. In areas where diversity of opinion is “okay” or can be “tolerated,” God is equally reserving of precise knowledge to himself (such as the day and hour of His Second Coming).

With respect to the underlined portion of your statement, let make my positions categorically clear to you. I think you are wrong in that opinion. “Personal experience” is NOT the “yardstick” or “requirement” for having a valid opinion about something. The basis of MOST learning is that we do NOT have to personally experience something; i.e., rape, murder, theft, etc.; in order to understand and accept that it is wrong. We learn by the experiences of others and the passing on of that knowledge so that we DON’T have to personally experience the bad things, or to gain understanding of how things work in the world around us by God’s natural laws all by our own efforts.

The “problem” is not usually a problem of “how to express something.” The problem is usually a preconceived position regardless of the facts and/or an unwillingness to say “I was wrong” and CHANGE where it change is needed based on new factual information (i.e., “Flat Earthers” and “
Round Earthers”).

[color:"blue"] “If you don't understand what I mean, then the problem is always with how I expressed myself and has nothing to do with your personal preferences, experiences or bias.” [/color]

Possibly. But don’t you think the lack of understanding might be due more to a lack of “definition of terms?” We often assume that the meaning that we ascribe to a word is the same meaning that someone else would ascribe to the same word or phrase. That is NOT always true, hence the need to define the words and phrases so that we will KNOW how the other person perceives what is being said, not how we assume WE would perceive it. Tony, we can have different preferences, experiences, and biases so long as we define the same words and understand how WE understand what that word or phrase means. Understanding how the other person defines the same words and phrases is what allows for understandable communication.

Okay, so now it’s time for me to apologize for going over the “100 word” limit. It will likely happen again for 2 primary reasons. First, in discussions about “faith” matters, it does not lend itself to simplistic answers a lot of the time. Second, because of the MB website problems, multiple posting is hard and almost impossible at times. Hence, it’s “easier” to try get everything that COULD be broken into multiple shorter posts into one larger post that the system will allow to be posted.

God bless.

I see my reply to this was lost in cyberspace. It's probably best.

The short answer is that I'm comitted and try to believe and apply scriptures as a sufficent source to deal with all in my life, but often fall short.

I lose paper a lot, and my job doesn't require that I devote 100% of my resources to my job all the time. (Think digital fireman and you have the idea.)

Short posts, dealing with one specific idea work best for me and allow me to focus on one thesis.

T

Tony, let’s take a look at something that you posted on April 26th that I think gives great insight into WHY you are having these feelings and misunderstandings.

[color:"blue"] “I have been obediant since WW walked out. My obediance has earned me the title of ex Husband.

My obediance has not gotten me any closer to God.

My daily scripture reading has not gotten me any closer to God.

Sitting quietly has not gotten me any closer to God.

Weekly worship has not gotten me any closer to God.

You seem to discount my feelings. Well there is a big disconnect between my feelings and what I know in my head. I cannot resolve that disconnect. I try to behave in accordance to that knowlege, but the feelings you said would come have not come.” [/color]

Tony, I believe that you “cannot resolve that disconnect” because you don’t have a proper understanding of the things you are trying to apply; obedience, reading, quiet time, worship. It is not that I “discount your feelings.” On the contrary, I give much importance to your feelings.

First, feelings often lead us astray and lie to us, so we have to be careful about how much “value” we ascribe to feelings.

Second, we all have feelings and there is nothing inherently wrong with feeling “not in close fellowship with God.” In fact, that’s a feeling that perhaps we need to examine ourselves to make sure that selfish motives have not crept into our actions.

Third, God gave us our emotions and they can be both “good” and “bad” depending on we use them and react to them (i.e., love vs. hate).

So, will you join me for a minute in looking dispassionately at what you said in the above quote?


[color:"blue"] “I have been obediant since WW walked out. My obediance has earned me the title of ex Husband.” [/color]

Okay, the “walkout” in 2003, I think around October if I remember my reading correctly, preceeds my discussions with you. So I will take your word for it that you have been obedient to God’s commands SINCE your wife walked out. But your conclusion that it has “earned” you the title of ex-Husband drips of blaming God or mocking those who have advised you to be obedient to God’s commands. The implicit thought here is that you are “owed” a reward for your obedience, that you have “earned” something that makes God obligated to grant you a “wish.”

Is that your thought, or were you simply being sarcastic in your response because you are still very much in pain and hurting from the divorce?


[color:"blue"] “My obediance has not gotten me any closer to God.” [/color]

Obedience, by and of itself, will not “get you any closer to God.” The “issue” here is the motivation for obedience by a Christian. The motivation is love for God for what He did to rescue us from the penalty of sin through what Jesus Christ did on our behalf. Tony, God forgave us an “unpayable debt.” That debt was so huge that we could not pay it off in a hundred lifetimes or an infinite number of lifetimes. Your statement indicates that you seem to be viewing “obedience” as some sort of quid pro quo thing where your “obedience” obligates God do something in return for you. I would refer you to Job for perhaps a clearer understanding of this concept.

We do get closer to God when we are walking in obedience, but that is because we are doing so out of love for Him and what He did to save us, not because we think our obedience is “earning” us some kind of “right standing” with God.


[color:"blue"] “My daily scripture reading has not gotten me any closer to God.” [/color]

Perhaps not, but I’m betting that your reading IS putting information into your mind that God CAN use to help you when you begin to get the “right” perspective on WHY we do certain things. You can sort of think of it like reading a “textbook” for a subject you are trying to master. For a time, all of your reading is just a bunch of words and concepts. Then, one day you wake up and you truly begin to understand the subject and all the reading starts to “click into place.” The information is recalled and placed in it’s proper perspective and it “makes sense.” Think of it like your mind is big computer sucking in the information and storing it. When the right operator (the Holy Spirit) begins to “find” information for you, it will be there in storage waiting for the right time and the right application.

What I’m trying to say, Tony, is that when your motivation for the various things you do; prayer, reading, worship, obedience, etc.; is centered on doing it to please God and out of gratitude for what He has done for you rather than on doing it so that you can get something in return, then it will begin to “click.”


[color:"blue"] “Sitting quietly has not gotten me any closer to God.” [/color]

Quiet time is much more that just “sitting quietly.” It is time to be away from the usual distractions in life so that you can concentrate of God. One thing that might help you in this area is to think about this “quiet time” as time when you can meditate on God and all of His attributes, all that He has done, how great the sacrifice was that He made on behalf of all sinners, how much pain and agony He endured for us because He loved us and was obedient to God the Father no matter how much He wished He could somehow avoid going THROUGH the trial and agony and death and the bearing of all the sins of everyone. It is a time when you can begin to “feel” the awesomeness” of God and how hard it is to “know” everything about the one who is our sovereign LORD.

It is in things like that when we begin to “feel” closer to God because without what He has already done for us, we would be eternally lost and all the rest would be “irrelevant.”


[color:"blue"] “Weekly worship has not gotten me any closer to God.” [/color]

Tony, we worship God daily. The weekly gathering together of the “saints” serves several purposes. Iit is a command of God to NOT forsake the gathering together of the saints. It is a time when we can worship God, learn, “get our batteries recharged” after a weeklong struggle in a fallen world, etc. It’s not done to earn some “right” to now be closer to God, to have God “move us up the friendship ladder.” Today there are many different types of worship services that are used by various churches. Some people like a more contemporary service, some like a more traditional service, some an evangelistic style, etc.. They key thing is that we don’t want it to “flop over” into a sort of “entertainment” for the sake of entertainment sort of service. The purpose, regardless of form, is to WORSHIP a Holy God who is our Father and the Lord of the universe and the creator and sustainer of all life. He deserves our worship simply because of who He is, not because we “get” anything out of it. It is His due simply because He IS God.


[color:"blue"] “You seem to discount my feelings. Well there is a big disconnect between my feelings and what I know in my head. I cannot resolve that disconnect. I try to behave in accordance to that knowlege, but the feelings you said would come have not come.” [/color]

Tony, let me give you something to think about. Since you accepted Christ as a young boy, you might gain some insight and some resolution to the “disconnect” you feel between your feelings and your “head knowledge” if you think about what an adult goes through when they get to the point of accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior. They have “past experience,” “past baggage,” REAL hard and tangible “sins” instead of the childlike concept of sin that is very generalized i.e. “we are all sinners and do bad things.”

What this sort of thinking does is it allows the Holy Spirit to convict us of OUR specific and personal sins in addition to the more generalized concept that “all have sinned” and that we are have “inherited a sin nature.” This conviction of how dreadful sin is to a Holy God is what “breaks” an adult and crushes him to the point where he confesses his sins and humbly accepts the gift that is offered in Jesus Christ. That man repents, in all the full meaning of the word “repent.”

You may have had this sort of deep conviction of your sin on previous occasions. You have stated that you have asked for God’s forgiveness on many occasions. Someone only asks for forgiveness when they are convicted of the sin and are ready to repent of it. If that is the case, then when you have some “quiet time,” why not revisit in your mind how terrible you felt about sin against a Holy God and the deep, heartfelt repentance and promise to “not do that again.” FEEL your past broken and crushed spirit and how good it felt to KNOW that God is faithful to all who have accepted Jesus Christ and that He FORGAVE you totally, not because of anything you did to “earn” His forgiveness, but simply because Jesus Christ earned that forgiveness for you.

Last thing for now, have you actually read the entire links that I left you previously? I’m betting that you will find some things in them that will also help you in some areas that you’ve been struggling with.

God bless.

Hi Tony.

I am amazed that you continue to engage this thread. So far, (and I have read *most* of this thread), I hear you being blamed, accused, and reprimanded for all the things you are doing "wrong". I don't like it.

Anyway, I wrote to you before, but you never answered and I'm not sure it was visible between all the posts you received from others.

What I wanted to tell you is that I continue to be sorry that you are suffering at the hands of someone else's sin. It isn't fair and it isn't right.

You may not ever feel *right* during your time on this earth. You may never be completely or perfectly healed on this side of heaven... but I believe that God DOES want you know (and FEEL) that you are loved, appreciated and important... Even if it takes into eternity for you to experience it in full.

You are important... Fearfully and wonderfully made.

I know it doesn't always feel like God loves you. But he does. And maybe the only way you will feel close to him for a while is through your own longing for your children, and even your wife. Those longings are a reflection of a longing that will only eventually find its resting place in God alone.

Now we see in part (as through a glass, but darkly), then we shall see face to face.

I wish I could offer you more hope that you will experience total healing here on earth. But you may not. And while it is true that God can do immeasurably more than we can ever ask or imagine, sometimes he doesn't. It is also true that he does allow suffering to exist, and that somehow it is redemptive. But it is still suffering.

I'm sorry you are suffering. May I ask if you have friends where you connect well adn can spend some time these days? Sometimes it's nice to have real people to love on you...

Be well.

Telly,

I'm glad you see what I see. I've never said I was totally right, and know that I have a way to go. It's a lifetime journey, just like my marriage was supposed to be.

I had dreams about XW this week. Didn't have a single dream about her during the entire divorce.

Then last night, divorce care session is about reconciliation.

XW just keeps running. I got a new cell phone last week and sent her a text message with my new number. No response, no thank you, no "I got it." Nothing. So I waited a couple of days and called her phone, left a voice mail with the information, still no acknowledgement, etc.

Yet I have dreams on four nights, two nights she was running away, I can't remember what the dream was about one night, a fourth night, she was listening and really cared that she had hurt me.

I don't think it means anything, as she still feels I bully her. The truth is I don't ask her or tell her anything, but when our YD asks to stay with me more nights, WW feels bullied.

I just say I'm sorry you feel that way, YD is asking if she can spend time with me, etc.

Sometimes I just wish she would come to a divorce care group, or speak to the pastor or someone who is really well grounded in scripture. But that would require her to face that she might have done something wrong.

Sometimes I wonder if my willingness to admit what I've done, seek forgiveness, and even asking her if there was anything else that she felt I did to wrong her is too much for her.

I just don't know if she is upset that I would now want to make changes, if she is bothered that she may have mis-understood.

I just wish I understood sometimes. It's hard enough for me as a thinker to get into her feelings, and when they are hidden, buried and masked, it's nearly impossible.

Yet I still want to be able to work with her as a co-parent. There may never be a restored romantic relationship, but she doesn't even feel she needs to share with me information about our daughter, that she should be the one who decides that I'm spending enough time with YD. I hear so many times that, "You should be happy with the amount of time you spend with YD."

When I ask her if she would be happy with that amount of time, she says not, but it's different, I'm her mother.

Talk about being invalidated.

But how can I be a light house or an example when I can't find the joy in my own salvation?

I care for her a great deal, and want her to have the best that God has to offer. I know I can't give that to her, I can't make her take it.

Well, I'm just rambling and I know you are sorry that I am hurting. I don't claim that I've done everything right, and that I still have work to do. I'd just like to see some healing in that relationship. I'd like to see my XW confident enough that she doesn't feel threatened by me.

I do believe that I am NOT doing anything to threaten her, yet she still feels that way. She feels inferior, she feels like she cannot be herself, these are things she has said. There is nothing I've found that I can say or do to mitigate those feelings.

I don't see how her having a relationship with an even older, even more educated and probably wealthier man is going to help her feel better about herself.

But I haven't seen my prayers answered yet. Someone will certainly point out that I cannot see how God is working in her life and in her heart and that is true.

That doesn't really take away the desire that I want to see God working and making progress with her.

If God is working and He wants me to "wait at the line of reconciliation" as was mentioned in the divorce care class last night, I need to hear something pretty clear.

If God wants me to let go, then I need to hear that too. The messages are conflicting, scripture says many things about not wanting divorce, the story of Hosea and Gomer, wanting us to provide is ministry of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21


I know a lot of this is because I look at my XW through mans eyes, and I try to look at her through the eyes of Jesus, that salvation and reconciliation is offered to her as well as everyone else.

That in God's eyes, we are all His creation, and are all valuable to Him. In God's eyes, I'm not better, nor worse than XW, or even the Pope! (For those who hold the Pope in high regard.)

Well, I'm still rambling.

I do have some friend, a good set of co-workers, folks in the divorce care group, my best friend was the minister who married us, etc.

But that doesn't really fix the problem of being divorced and not seeing my daughter as much as I'd like.

Thanks,

T

ForeverHers,

You are right, I don't understand a Holy God, I don't know how to worship Him. I don't understand why He would allow these things to happen, I don't understand why my XW would find a man who cheats on his wife to be more appealing than a man who admits his faults and seeks to follow God. I don't understand why my XW runs from me and God, I don't understand what I need to do to worship Him daily.

I don't understand why God would create me to want to understand and then have Him be very quiet about what He wants me to do.

I do understand that there is no way my prayers are heard if I'm not obediant.

I really did think that God would answer my prayers and restore my family if I did my part and moved towards Him. Yes, I am disappointed with the fact that God either didn't or couldn't convice XW to stay in the marriage.

That doesn't mean I BLAME God, but I am very disappointed. I get the impression that you think I should feel a different way.

So let's be clear, I don't blame anyone but me and XW for what happened. I'm disappointed that God allowed it to happen and was either unwilling or unable to influence the outcome otherwise.

To expect me to believe or feel otherwise is unfair. God can see it all, I don't have the information God has. If God wants me to feel differently, the HE needs to provide me with the information necessary to feel otherwise.

If God doesn't want me to be disappointed, then He needs to provide something to replace the disappointment, because I don't know how to.

I don't have the ability or power to do this.

If I understood, I wouldn't be asking the questions. So you have arrived at the conclusion I've known for a long time.

So when you say I don't understand, you are where I am, I don't understand.

Ultimately, I feel that I'm not good enough, I don't have value if God cannot take the time to help me understand. This is the life God gave me. He wants me to serve Him, to worship Him, to honor Him, yet I don't even understand. He allows the one earthly thing I wanted, the earthly metaphor that is supposed to help mankind understand the relationship with God to be destroyed in my life.

I'm really having a hard time finding peace that God has something even better for me.

I can read it in scripture. But like I said, I work in Missouri, so show me.

T

Tony,

If I have been one of the ones to *chastise* and *reprimand* you, I apologize.

Standing Together,

I can't recall feeling chastized or reprimanded by you. I may not always be able to do what you suggest, but I can't say that I've felt chastized.

I'm not sure you understand the pain I feel.

To Everyone,

When is God going to take away the pain. I doubt I will forget the divorce, when does the pain go away?

Why does God allow my daughter to be kept from me. Yes, He allows it. What is the purpose of this. It's a fallen world is a poor answer. It's a cop-out. The God I seek to worship is, as you say, bigger than any storm.

Well, let's see that. I've been telling the storm God is bigger and the storm just laughs at me.

Maybe I am an immature Christian who wants God to fix it all.

Ok, so God lets her have free will, fine. So why does God allow me and YD to hurt so XW can have free will?

Ok, that's how God does things, when does He take the hurt away?

When does He tell me what He wants me to do?

Folks can tell me we experience suffering. Is that supposed to make it feel better? Well, I can tell you it doesn't feel any better knowing trouble is the status quo.

I'm here to RESOLVE the problems, not to hear that they are normal. My customers would not be happy if I told them they have to suffer because their computer's behavior is, while annoying or hurtful, normal.

I don't really find these answers comforting or helpful. My finite mind can't grasp forever. Telly knows my personality type and knows I live very much in the now. Details about this life is temporary and a better one is coming really offer little if any comfort.

Like I said, I thought God told me that my marriage would be saved and I got that wrong, it wasn't. I'm divorced and don't get to see my YD often enough.

Now, I'm to find satisfaction in God, the very one I'm disapointed with, the very one who is hidden from me, the very one who keeps His will and plan for my life a secret from me.

Does anyone realize how difficult the task is they offer. Is there any wonder I want some help, guidance and a plan from God himself.

Salvation is not from anything I can do, but is simply something I accept. It's not my works, but a freely offered gift.

Maybe my problem is that I expected God to offer a relationship as well, but he doesn't.

FH mentions that God is a Holy God. God knows I CANNOT be Holy because I am born of sin, so I have to be made holy by Christ.

FH mentions that if I'm not holy, then it's something wrong with me, but that contradicts the nature of man with respect to God. We are NOT holy by anything we do, but are holy because we accept salvation offered by Christ's death on the cross.

I've done my part, I've accepted that. I'm as holy as I'm ever going to be, and Christ has to make up the difference.

Many say, T you must do this, you must understand that. The bottom line is none of that really matters as my work, my righteousness is but filthy rags before a Holy God. I understand all of that.

The conclusions are all too difficult to fathom.

I could conclude:

1. God doesn't really mean what He says about comfort, about answering prayers, about those who honestly seek His will will have their prayers answered.

Psalms 69 comes to mind.

Or what of 1 John 5 14,15

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

I have heard that it is not God's will that we should divorce. I asked God with complete confidence that I was asking for His will that our marriage be saved, that the divorce be stopped.

Did God keep this promise?

I knew before that God would hear me. Now that my prayers were not answered, I don't know that God hears me or even cares.

There is nothing I can do, God is God and I am but His creation. If I have so totally misunderstood God and misunderstood His will.

So what does this scripture mean, if it doesn't mean that when you ask according to God's will and believe that he hears your prayers that He will give us what we ask.

Facts:

1. I asked what we agreed was God's will, for our family to remain intact. It has been said many times, divorce is not His will.

2. I believed that God would hear and answer this prayer because it is his will that the marriage covenant be kept.

3. I prayed this prayer as a born again member of the Body of Christ.

So, I ask God what went wrong?

Is scripture wrong?

Did I not believe?

If I didn't believe, then why did I even pray this prayer?

If I prayed with the expectation that God was listening to my prayers, why did He not hear them. Because I know I prayed the prayer.

I can be pretty specific, I prayed that God would make keeping the marriage covenant more attractive to XW than to divorce me and continue seeing the MOM. That God would change me that I would be the Godly husband that God wanted me to be. I prayed that God would stop the divorce, divorce was not His will, so let's see His will done in all of this.

I prayed the MOM would return to his wife, and they would have a marriage that honored God and was a testimony to the power of God.

I prayed that XW would find that God was the answer to her issues.

I prayed that God would provide me with a calm spirit and a clear description of what He wanted me to do.

Is any of this outside of the will of God?

So from my POV, God did not keep the promise quoted in 1 John 5.

So I put it out there, Show Me!

T