Tony, asking for things, bringing your petitions before God, is both good and what God expects you to do. The "disconnect" comes back to your seeming expectation that it's a "phone call" sort of connection...you call, you ask, you expect an immediate reply, you expect to hear the other person talking, you may even expect that your requests are granted in full. But I'm not sure that you really understand HOW to pray effectively. God is not the "answer man," waiting to grant us whatever we want. God is Sovereign and knows HOW to answer (or not answer) that is in our best interest. What WE want is irrelevant in that sense that what we ask should be asked "according to God's will," not our will.

IF God chose to not answer you for several years, HE has that right, but God won't do that. God will answer you immediately, but He will answer according to His will for your life, not necessarily the "way" or in the "time" that you want Him to respond.

Think of it this way: God expects us to obey His commands, as revealed in Scripture, even if we never "hear from Him" until after we are dead. It is enough that we are saved through Jesus Christ. God's "plan" for us is NOT here on earth. Certainly God can, and does, use individuals for His purposes here on earth, but His "plan" for you, me, and other Christians, is in the eternal, in your yet to be glorified body.

So, yes, Tony, I understand your confusion and your questions. They are valid. They are not uncommon. You are not the first to have those questions.

Before going on one further let take this time to state that when you first were convicted of your sinful nature, confessed your sinful state to God and accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you were SEALED for eternity. There are those who believe that you can lose your salvation, but I am not one of them. I believe Scripture is quite clear that "no one can snatch them out of my (Jesus's) hand." At the same time, I understand that there are those who claim to be Christians, but who have never truly surrendered their lives to Christ. The parable of the soils warns us about this and exhorts us to examine ourselves to make certain we have accepted Jesus Christ.

Tony, even the fallen angels KNOW who Christ is and believe that He is God. But they refuse to surrender. In fact, they no longer have a choice to surrender. They made their choice "way back when" and sealed their eternity. We, too, have until our death to choose and seal our eternity.

Tony, you ARE, from all that I can see, saved by the blood of Christ. It is Satan who wants to whisper in your ear, "but God didn't REALLY mean what He said." Your questions and your struggles have no bearing on your salvation. It's one of the reasons why Christ leaves the flock and goes out in search of a "lost sheep" of His. You ARE His, you never stop being His, and while it might take a while according to your sense of time, Christ will find you and LEAD you back, not instantaneously transporting you back to the sheep pen and safety.

Tony, your references to Paul are confused. But know is not the time to debate or discuss those things. "Election" is another big topic, but again, now is not the time to discuss that. Right now, you need to focus on "one bite" at a time and ask yourself; "do you believe God?" If the answer is yes, then whether you feel you are getting the answers you want according to your timetable and/or in the way you want them, is irrelevant. They get put on the table and will be "addressed" in time.

The next couple of days are going to be very busy for me, so I don't know when I'll be able to get back on and follow up with you. But what I'd like to do is to post some materials for you to read and consider.

Until then, I'm going to stop because it seems to be adding to your angst and confusion. Too many cooks perhaps...

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?!?!" Jesus KNOWS what you are feeling and neither He nor you have been forsaken by God. But the lack of feeling God's presence with you is frightening for the short term. It's also why it's important to "endure" sometimes while waiting on God to work in our lives according to His good will.

[color:"red"]"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." [/color] (John 16:33 NIV)

God bless.

I can empithize with what you are going through. I am in a similar situation. I feel so confused, hurt, lost, pain, etc. I have put all my faith in God to heal the wounds of the relationship. I choose Faith over Fear. Many times a day I have to reaffirm that to myself. Everytime I get scared things are not going to work out. It really helps me out. You can only work on the issues you had in the relationship, make yourself a better person. God is always working in your life and he want the best for you, he is a very loving God. Be patient...they say patience is bitter, but the fruit is sweet. Give her time, any contact with her needs to be positive. Hang in there! and faitfully pray to God for what you need.

I wish you would read your Best Life Now by Joel Olsteen or get it on CD and listen to it. No matter how much we pray or have faith God will never take free will away from anyone.
God Bless,
Stormy

Dru

I pray daily. I do daily scripture reading, Psalms, Proverbs and some other text I'm working on. When I have my daughter with me, we do a nightly devotional for kids as well as prayers.

I'm going on a mission trip to Peru in August.

Right now, I'm busy getting XW's stuff out of the house. I had a real estate agent here today and I am probably sitting pretty good for equity. So hopefully this house will sell quickly and I'll buy one I like better. XW and I were going to buy last spring. Well, I have to scale back a bit since I have 1K/month in child support to pay, but I should still be able to move up from this 1600 sq ft brick ranch, (with 1400 square ft of basement) to something about 1800-2000 square feet closer to YD's school, and a neighborhood with more families.

So I'm still stuck in ESTJ things, looking forward to having nothing to pay but a mortgage, no car payments, no credit card debt, just a mortgage.

Bigger, newer house, and more cash in my pocket each month, what is not to like.

Maybe I will buy that sports car, but only after I pay the bills. But I would look good in a Porsche Boxster, red of course. I could get a good used one for under $20K Since it would be a toy, used is the way to go for me.

Or, I could just get rid of my two 10+ year old cars and buy an Infinity G35 coupe or sedan or a Lexus IS300 or a BMW 3 series and just have one car.

But the house will come first, and then we'll see how much cash is left once I'm moved in.

Yeah, I'm a pretty decent cook, and I'm looking forward to a much nicer kitchen.

ForeverHers,

I will consider what you have to offer.

Stormy,

I'm not sure I agree with Joel Olsteen. He is a great speaker, but I sometimes question the soundness of the theology he preaches. If it's working for you, great, but I have some concerns about his brand of "Name it and claim it" theology.

Thanks,

T

Tony,

I think what you're having a problem with is recognizing when the Lord is w/you. Maybe if you learn to recognize His presence, then you'd better be able to feel it. I tried to tell you that in my last post to you, but I don't know if you missed it or what. I've tried to reply twice to you now & both times I didn't get a response.

Hugs to you. I can see how much longing you have for feeling the Lord's presence & I pray that you're able to find it.

StandingTogether,

Sorry, there have been so many posts here and I'm sure I've missed some.

More of her stuff is gone, almost all of it now. I packed it into the garage and left for her to come get it. About three hours later, I get a call that they are done.

I know in my head God is with me. It's just in my heart, my feelings that I don't always know he is there.

It's kinda like this, I "know" how a nuclear power plant works, but I don't think I could build one. I know how a plane flys, but I don't think I could fly one.

Just because you know something, doesn't mean you know what to do with that knowledge.

Thanks,

T

Tony,

I think I understand what you're saying. I know you've said that you've tried prayers, bible study, etc. Have you also tried just turning everything off in your house & just laying there? Saying a quick prayer before you do & then just sit in silence? That's usually the best way to experience God's presence.

Another thing -- have you ever had a moment when you were crying uncontrollably or very upset & couldn't calm yourself down & then all of a sudden, in a second, be totally calm? That happened to me once when H first left. I swear I thought I could feel a hand touching me. That was kind of scary after I thought about it but now that I reflect on it, I realize that was God's touching hand. And I didn't cry anymore that day.

I don't think we realize how God is w/us until after the fact when we reflect on it. I think everyone needs to have the goal of being able to recognize when God is present w/us.

I think your time is coming, Tony when God is going to reveal Himself to you in a very powerful way & you won't even have heard Him coming. It's going to be a WHAM kind of moment where you go, Wow God, that was You? type of thing.

“ForeverHers,

I will consider what you have to offer.

All right Tony; let’s see if we can “cut to the chase.” Before doing that let me make a couple of brief comments so you’ll have a little information on which to base an understanding of what I’m saying.

1. I’ve spent hours going over your entire thread, copying, printing, reading, “and digesting” what has been said by you and to you by others.

2. You have a “tendency” to respond to posts that you can “argue in the negative” with and ignore the posts that cause you to stop and think.

3. “Sanctification” is a process that we all go through for our entire lives. Some of us are “quicker learners” than others, but the whole process is about CHANGE to become more “Christ-like” in our walk here on earth. We do NOT become “finished” and “glorified” until AFTER death. Until then, we “fight the good fight” against our flesh and a fallen world.

4. A “Christian” has NO “guarantee” of an “easier life” or in knowing what the future holds for them. We are given TODAY only. The future is in God’s hands, and His alone.

5. God IS sovereign. God is LORD. We are his “slaves,” “servants,” “vassals,” “created beings,” “a little higher than the angels,” or any other terms you might want to describe who we are in relation to God. HE is the “Potter” and we are His “Clay.” He decides and He shapes and He plans what He will use us for, “noble or common purpose,” according to His will, not ours. God does not “explain” Himself to us, He COMMANDS. We are “bought and paid for” by the blood, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and we have no say in our salvation other than to accept or reject the “gift” that Jesus offers.

6. God does not WANT anyone to perish. But the choice is OURS. God will draw us to him; God will present all the “facts.” God will DO (has done it in Jesus Christ) what is necessary to save us from the penalty of sin. God will lead us beside the still waters, BUT He won’t “MAKE” us drink.


Okay, let’s get back to “cutting to the chase.” From all that I read in this thread, you have a multitude of questions and few answers that “sit well with you.” Tony, questioning is GOOD. God has commanded us to know Him and to Love Him with “all of your heart, mind, and soul.” In short, God has promised, “seek and ye shall find.” Yes, I know that the “seeking” most often referred to here is concerning salvation, but it also applies to your questions. God gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us into “walking closer with God.” How do you think most of that is accomplished? The “trite phrase” most often used to attempt to “explain” the concept is “WWJD,” “What would Jesus do?”

The Scripture is replete with examples of men who “questioned God,” didn’t know “how” to do something, and even examples (like Abraham) who laughed, rejected, accepted, and obeyed even when not knowing how God would fulfill His promise if he actually sacrificed his only son in obedience to God’s command. Think of the Apostles.
Tony, it’s “okay” to question, it’s “okay” to seek clarity. But it can’t be a “defensive” seeking. It has to be with an open heart that will allow God to answer AS GOD SEES FIT. It has to understand that God may NOT choose to answer directly, audibly, etc.

Tony the “posture” that is needed is the same that we see throughout the Scripture…men following God for their entire lives with NO direct “word from God.” Take Noah as just one example. God spoke to Him twice. “BUILD!” (God gave him the blueprint but not the materials or the carpentry/shipbuilding skills) “ENTER! (It was time to let God control everything and just wait, not knowing what the future would be like.)

Many other examples are in the Scripture; too numerous to list….Paul, on the road to Damascus, got “one” audience with God. Stephen (to our knowledge) may never have had a direct conversation with God.

Christ’s comment to Thomas when Thomas was given visual and physical “proof” that Jesus WAS who He said He was. “Blessed are those….”

Tony, in “cutting to the chase” I ran across this ONE statement of yours, among the many statements that you have made over the past months, that I believe summarizes the “problem” you are struggling with about as concisely as I could find. Here is what you said:

“So this whole thread has been to ask God, to ask you folks how to ask God to show me his way for me.”

Tony, putting all that has occurred aside for a minute, let me try to answer this fundamental question for you. After that we can spend some time (a lot of time actually) on things you need to read and consider.

Answer: God shows you His “way” for you in Jesus Christ. “I am the WAY, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.”

We tend to think of that as “ONLY” with respect to salvation. But I contend that it is the answer to much more. It is THROUGH Christ that we live a life that is “pleasing to God.” It is through Christ’s strength when we are assailed during life that we can be “overcomers.”

“Take up YOUR cross and FOLLOW me.” No understanding, no clear message, no map or clear destination of a “place” or “point” on earth. It is simply surrendering our lives, all of it, each of us individually, to God and humbly following in obedience no matter what we are thinking or following. To be really trite, if you will forgive, “Father KNOWS best.” As Christ admonishes us to follow God as a “child” who does not know or understand all the “why’s and wherefores,” He tells us to TRUST God always, but especially when we are “blind” and “deaf.”

Okay, let me return to some of the other statements you have made, questions you have posed, and see if we can shed a little “light” on your struggles.

You said:
“So I'm looking for where I fit into the body of Christ, where does He want me to go?

Because of my confusion, I have to be 100% sure that what I'm told to do is what God wants me to do.” {God NEVER provides a precise road map. God asks us to follow Him, letting Him lead, without ever knowing the details or the destination (other than to eventually be WITH Him in heaven.}

Tony, you can be SURE (100%) of what God wants you to be (His child, following Him in humble obedience to the best of your ability, trusting Him, and looking forward to when you WILL see Him face to face).

You said:
“ I've accepted Christ as my Savior, but how can He be Lord over my life if I don't understand what he wants me to do?”

Tony, God is LORD whether we “understand” or not. God is “in control,” not us. God does NOT answer “as we would like Him to answer.” God answers as HE wills. God reveals what HE decides to reveal. NONE of us knows everything, but what Jesus Christ did on our behalf is ENOUGH for us to trust God’s faithfulness and care for us regardless of any circumstances we are faced with in this life. THE ONLY matter of “real” importance is our “eternal status” with God because of what He has already done for us.

Tony, there are many things going on in this world that cause confusion. Within the Christian community there are thoughts promulgated such as “Name it and Claim it,” “Prosperity” theology, etc., that confuse Christians and focus on “one part” of Scripture and ignore the totality of Scripture.

Where does all this confusion come from? It comes from two primary sources. First, we live in a fallen world that is “controlled” by Satan and we are confronted with sin every day. Second, we have “free will” but we do not have a “perfect understanding,” so we can easily be “lead astray” by things that “sound good” or “feel good.” How many times have you read or heard that an affair was “justified” because “God wouldn’t have brought so-and-so into my life if it wasn’t ‘His will’?” Humans are GOOD at rationalizing and justifying disobedience to God.

Tony, God created both the Angels and Man with free will. Consider this, the Angels were in God’s presence all the time. They knew Him and saw Him for what He is and they did so every day. Pride. Refusal to “submit.” Where sin “began.” Tony, the Angels KNEW what God intended for them, they knew 100% what God’s plans were.

Did that stop them from sinning? Rhetorical question.

Then he said to them, [color:"red"]“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”[/color] Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, [color:"red"]“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”[/color] (Matt.26:38-39 NIV)

THREE times, Tony, Jesus prayed to NOT have to undergo the Cross. Three times, Jesus submitted His will to the Father’s will even though He knew fully what God’s plan was AND that He had the power (as God himself) to do whatever HE might will.

Jesus Christ gave us the EXAMPLE of how and what we are to DO to “walk with God.

Nowhere in the Gospels does it say that the Father audibly and clearly spoke back to Jesus as he prayed. God established ALL that was necessary long ago. It was submit in humble obedience even IF you don’t understand and even IF you don’t want to what needs to be done to walk the path that is set before you.

The Father, to best of our knowledge responded as He did when Jesus was with Satan being tempted….with silence. God HAD already spoken. There was no need for further communication to repeat was already clearly and immutably spoken and revealed.

Tony, you may have heard a phrase that is often used in Christian discussion, it is “Let go and Let God.” It sounds trite, but the underlying thought is that God is in Control and God is Sovereign. We trust God….period…Easy to say, harder to put into practice. It’s one of the reasons why the Sanctification process continues for our entire lifetime.

What I am going to do next is to post from a couple of chapters from the book The God Who Hears, by W. Bingham Hunter. I would recommend that you get the book and read it. There are many books on prayer, but this is one of the “better ones” that I have read. It is very practical and understandable… and it directly deals with some of the “toughest” questions about prayer.

God bless. I hope that this will help in your search for understanding and in your ability to “let go and let God” help you through any crisis in your life. He is YOUR personal Lord and Savior and YOU are His number one concern. Thank God that He is “big enough” to be able to love each of His children the same way…with all of His love.

Tony, the following is a bit lengthy, so you might want to save it to a file or print it out for reading later. I pray that it will begin to help you get some of your questions answered. God bless.

******************

God is the only one to whom you can say, “You know what I mean,” and be 100% sure you will not be misunderstood.

At the height of his spiritual maturity Paul acknowledged, “we do not know what we ought to pray.” But he went immediately on to say, “the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express…The Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will” (Rom. 8:26-27). Jesus himself once prayed, “Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say?” (Jn 12:27). Now Jesus is closer to God than any other, “at the right hand of God…interceding for us” (Rom 8:34). Through the intercession of Jesus and the Spirit, God has provided for our inadequacies.

“How Will I Know When God Speaks To Me?”

This question is not usually mentioned in books on prayer. It has no simple answer. God has spoken to people in many different ways, and those who write books on prayer must not either limit or predict how God may communicate with you. God spoke audibly to Moses (Ex 3:4-5), Samuel (1 Sam 3:1-2) and Elijah (1 Kings 19:13-14). And a few Christians in our time also say they have heard his voice. Some say they have heard God’s voice “inside” (inaudibly) during prayer. God has also responded to prayer by “speaking” during dreams (Acts 16:9). Some have been visited by angels with God’s response to prayer (Dan 9:20-23; Acts 27:23), and others have experienced visions (Acts 9:11-15; 10:2-7). In some cases the response of the Lord was given to a third party who then told the petitioner (2 Kings 10:2-7; Acts 9:10). Occasionally and angel has been sent to a third party in response to prayer (Acts 12:5-11).

Nevertheless, most Christians in our day do not routinely experience these types of responses to their prayers. Many never do. Because this is true, we need guidelines to test the responses.

“How do I know,” Ebenezer Scrooge asked the specter of Christmas past in Dickens’s A Christmas Carol, “that you are not just a blot of mustard or a fragment of an underdone potato?” This is a relevant question. Be honest, and evaluate your physical, emotional and mental state when any word from the Lord is received. A dream produced by indigestion is likely not an inspiration from God. More importantly, evaluate the content of God’s apparent response against the content of his certain Word. No reply of God’s to prayer will ever conflict with Scripture. If you need help, seek the wisdom and advice of your pastor and elders. If the message causes red flags to wave when explained to others in the body of Christ, evaluate carefully and proceed slowly. Take no precipitous action. People arrested every year with bombs and guns say, “God told me to do it.”

Generally God’s response to prayer is not extraordinary. Prayer is not an invitation to a side show. For the few who have audibly heard God’s voice or seen his angel, there are thousands more who discern his response in very ordinary ways.

God’s reply to prayer may come during your time of devotion. You may find yourself remembering a part of Scripture which directly applies to your petition or which states a general principle which covers the concern at hand. But for this to happen you must first have read, if not actually memorized, sufficient Scripture for the Spirit to have something to bring to mind. God speaks through his Word frequently. Some come away from prayer convicted that a course of action is the one God desires them to take, or certain that another is wrong. The petitioner becomes convinced the action is consistent with general biblical guidelines. After prayer, God’s answer may be discerned through private Bible reading or study with a friend. Maybe he will be heard in the words of your pastor, an elder or Sunday-school teacher. Perhaps it will be during dialog with a counselor or friend. After he called on the name of the Lord, Abraham once received a stinging rebuke, clearly and admonition from God, from an abject pagan (Gen 10:1-18).

Christians often say they received no answer concerning a matter prayed about, but God gave them “peace” about it. Having peace after prayer is the way some believers gain assurance that their petitions are heard. But peace is a much misused word. If you have peace that God will do what you could but don’t want to do, a more accurate word might be fear or laziness. If peace means you have not really given the situation much thought, but just passed it on to God, then perhaps irresponsible is closer to the truth. If peach means you did not talk the problem over with another believer, maybe introverted or pig-headed applies. Obviously I feel uncomfortable about finding God’s will only through feelings called “peace.”

God also responds to prayer by changing circumstances. In such cases God’s response takes more the form of doing than directing, convicting or giving peace. But there are obviously times when God does not change circumstances. When this happens, it can be difficult to know how to judge the situation. If the opportunity has passed, then God’s answer is likely to be no. If God still could act in the future, we then wonder whether to keep on praying or not. Here the presence or absence of what was called peace seems important.

Convinced that he should go to Rome, Paul prayed a long time for God to arrange it. But he was hindered, his plans constantly thwarted (Rom 1:10-13). Yet he persisted in prayer. The desire to go was apparently not removed, and he received no impression that he could not go. Further, he asked Roman Christians to join him in praying “that by God’s will I may come to you with joy” (Rom 15:31-32). He received God’s assurance weeks later while imprisoned in Jerusalem (Acts 23:11) but was not told how this would be accomplished. It would take more than two years of imprisonment in Caesarea before he set sail – still a prisoner – for Italy. Paul was again given divine encouragement that he would eventually get to Rome (Acts 27:23), but this was followed by a storm which raged for two weeks, a shipwreck and consequent three-month delay on an island due to winter gales. God’s final answer was perhaps two and half years in coming. The story is a monument to persistence in prayer.

Elsewhere Paul relates an attempt by repeated pleading to get God to remove a physical discomfort of infirmity (2 Cor 12:7-10). God replied that he would not remove the weakness. One gets the impression that Paul did not pray about it any longer. This time he apparently had peace and found God’s grace sufficient for his suffering. Once, Moses was actually forbidden to pray any longer for God to reverse his judgment and let him enter Canaan. “That is enough,” the LORD said. “Do not speak to me anymore about this matter.” (Deut 3:26); see also Jer 7:16). It is hard to say that Moses had peace about the situation, but he knew he was to stop praying.

If the opportunity for God to act is not gone and he has not told you to stop praying, I would encourage you to persist. Your attitude should parallel David’s, “Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me” (2 Sam 12:22). But don’t persist to wear God down as if he were a disinterested mechanical deity (Mt 6:7), a reluctant and inconvenienced friend (Lk 11:5-7) or a corrupt but harassed judge (Lk 18:1-6). Be importunate because you as God’s children are completely dependent on your loving heavenly Father for that which is petitioned: “Whom have I in heaven but you?” (Ps 73:25). Reflecting on the reality of God’s personalness keeps importunity and persistence from becoming mechanical techniques for manipulation.

God’s personalness may also explain why answers to prayer are not always immediately given. Most of us tend to view getting answers as the goal and prayer as the means to that end. But God views it differently. Given the perfection of his person, it is certain that God does not need us to talk to him because he’s lonely or insecure, nor does he have to depend on our advice or help in running the universe. Yet the commands of Scripture to pray suggest that he [I[wants[/i] us to pray; he actually enjoys having us speak to him. Developing a relationship with us is God’s goal, and answers to prayer are a means he uses to foster self-disclosure, growth and understanding of both hi and ourselves.

Since we are given to longer petitions than thanksgivings, it may be that for God to answer our prayers immediately might help depersonalize our thinking about him and be counterproductive to growth in our relationship with him. Let me illustrate. My son, Doug, spoke with me for many hours over several months about the advantages of the frame, chain, brakes and shifters found on a certain ten-speed bike he hoped to own. When Doug got such a vehicle, he spent far more time riding it and showing it to his friends than talking to me about it. If I had purchased it for him the day after he first mentioned it, the whole process – during which we learned far more about each other than about the bike Doug wanted – would have been cut to less that five minutes.

God may ask you to wait for answers to prayer not only because he loves you and knows what is best, but also because he actually likes you as an individual and personally enjoys having you talk to him.


“But What If God Does Not Respond at All?”

What should we do when God does not seem to answer our prayers? I would encourage you to pray and then exercise your God-given intellect. Examine the situation in light of Scripture and common knowledge, seek the advice and counsel of other believers, evaluate your skills, abilities and gifts, and consider the impact the alternatives will have on yourself and others. Review the factors involved with the Lord in prayer, ask for his help and then make a decision. Trust the Lord to direct your steps. With his Word in your mind, his Spirit in your heart and a desire to please him impressed on your will, you may follow what seems the best course and assume that such a course is God’s answer to prayer. “In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps” is the way this idea is expressed in Proverbs 16:9. Perhaps God’s answer to your prayer may be: “What do you think? And when are you going to do something about it?”

Far too many Christians use prayer as a sanctified excuse for procrastination and passivity. The fact is most of us would rather pray about it than do something about it. We must be willing to both pray and act. Personal responsibility characterized Jesus’ relationship with God. We need to follow his example by giving responsible service to God, even as we ask him to give to us in prayer. And we must not expect God to do for us what he has given us the ability to do for ourselves. “If you loved me, you would help,” we want to pray. But he replies in the silence, “Because I love you, I won’t. I’ll help you to do it yourself.”

Understanding God’s existence as personal spirit undergirds almost everything else which might be said about prayer. God’s personalness is the factor which makes prayer voluntary interpersonal communication and communion rather than compulsory mechanical manipulation and exploitation. Not until we come to view God himself as our treasure in heaven are we likely to genuinely desire to pray. “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also” (Mt 6:21).


Good: Why Pray to One Who Lets People Hurt?

Mary, who loved Christ and lived life larger than even pulp-fiction authors usually conceive, died in her early twenties of rampaging carcinoma . . . the same summer she was going to teach my son to swim. And Bill, among the brightest called to Gospel ministry, stopped breathing on a table in is doctor’s office. He was in class taking notes on Bible interpretation one day . . . leaving a widow and tiny infant the next. Then there was the young, all-American accountant at my church. Greg kissed his wife and little daughter and took his Bible along to Reserve training . . . and flew his jet fighter into a forest.

Seminary professors are supposed to have answers to such traumas. I talked about God’s will with Mary for hours following her surgery, but with Bill’s young wife for only a few embarrassed moments. As I prepared the message for the funeral of the Marine Corps pilot, the Scripture that kept coming to mind was this:

Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
They see their children established around them,
their offspring before their eyes.
They send forth their children as a flock;
their little ones dance about.
They sing to the music of the tambourine and harp;
they make merry to the sound of the flute.
They spend their years in prosperity
and go down to the grave in peace.
Yet they say to God, “Leave us alone!
We have no desire to know your ways.
Who is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
What would we gain by praying to him?” (Job 21:7-8, 11-15)

All I felt I could pray to God was “Why?” And God, for his part, said nothing . . . nothing at all.

The Silence of God

This sort of experience is only part of what theologians call the silence of God. Describing it Arthur Custance says,

It is His seeming indifference, at times, to the needs of human beings when appalling suffering overtakes them. Countless millions of people have suffered because of famine or war or drought or disaster in circumstances in which it hardly seems appropriate to say they deserved it.

At such times thoughtful men do not become atheists because they find it irrational to believe in a spiritual world which is above and beyond demonstration by ordinary means, but because of emotional insult, the feeling that if God is really such a Being as we, his children, claim Him to be, He could not possibly remain silent. He would have to act manifestly, mercifully, savingly, publicly.

The end of these three promising young lives was jarring to me. The tragedy of their apparently senseless and purposeless deaths has become for me a reminder of what Sir Robert Anderson so emotively described almost a century ago:

“Society, even in the great centers of our modern civilisation, is all too like a slave-ship, where, with the sounds of music and laughter and revelry on the upper deck, there mingle the groans of untold misery battened down below. Who can estimate the sorrow and suffering and wrong endured during a single round of the clock?

From the old days of Pagan Rome right down through the centuries of so-called “Christian” persecutions, the untold millions of martyrs, the best and purest of our race have been given up to violence and outrage and death in hideous forms. The heart grows sick at the appalling story, and we turn away with a dull but baseless hope that it may be in part at least untrue. But the facts are too terrible to make exaggeration in the record of them possible. Torn by wild beasts in the arena, torn by men as merciless as wild beasts, and, far more hateful, in the torture chambers of the Inquisition, His people have died, with faces turned to heaven, and hearts upraised in prayer to God; but the heaven has seemed as hard as brass, and the God of their prayers as powerless as themselves or as callous as their persecutors?”

The silence of God is shattering.


Where Is God When It Hurts?

No thinking Christian will be able to evade the issue of God’s silence and inactivity in the face of suffering. On some days we may find prayer impossible. Pain, anguish and grief and become so consuming that there is nothing left over to pray with. There are periods when the emotional insult of evil, injustice and destruction leave us emotionally, intellectually and spiritually numb.

Actually, the desire to pray to God can make the problem worse. Precisely because there is supposed to be a wise and good God to pray to – because the Christian is not an atheist – he or she finds a conflict which makes the times of God’s silence even more numbing. The big question is, why does pain and suffering exist? And given their existence, how do I respond to God in prayer?

Life once was good all the time. But God’s creatures, both angelic and human, were created with the ability and freedom to enjoy and glorify him, or to rebel and sin against him. Satan and his demons chose to rebel. And as both biblical and secular history show . . . so did men and women. The result of this rebellion as been pain and hurt.

In an ultimate sense, our experience of both so-called natural and moral evil has its origin in rebellion against God (Gen 3:17-19). God chose to create beings in his image, capable of making responsible decisions rather than controlled by instinct (as animals) or electromechanical design (as machines). At its heart, our question comes down to a statement that pain and hurt exist in our world because beings like ourselves exist. The ability to love carries with it the ability to hurt. And the ability to glorify God carries the ability to sin. Our creaturely freedom makes possible agony, tyranny, and oppression.

We must, as the title of Theodore Plantinga’s helpful book suggests, set our minds to Learning to Live with Evil. We are the children of Adam and Eve and must live in a world devastated by sin and evil. Speculation about what life would be like if we couldn’t sin, like most theological speculation, helps us to cope with life not one whit.


God Makes Evil into Good

Some Christians believe that God always turns evil into good. Alvera Mickelson deals with this question, relating it to the death of John the Baptist:

“There is no clue as to why God permitted John to be beheaded in a silly display of power by Herod. So far as we know, Jesus did not tell his disciples either that a great good would result from it, or that they should “praise the Lord” for the tragedy. He just went away alone to mourn John’s death…”

To assume that God lets bad things happen so that we can experience greater good is to deny the basic reality of sin and its evil nature. Christ gave his life to deliver us from the ultimate penalty of sin and moral evil. When we say that good will always be the ultimate out come of any “bad” happening, we are saying that moral evil does not really exist – it only seems that way to our mortal minds.

When and innocent child (or John the Baptist) is murdered, that is evil. Yes, God can, and often does, bring good results (conversions, family reconciliations, and so on) from such horrible events. But no parent would choose to let his child be cruelly murdered so that these “good things” would result. Friends who have faced tragic losses are not usually comforted by well-meaning friend who tell them “someday you will understand God’s reasons.”

The facts are that God does not make evil into good. Evil remains evil no matter how much good God may eventually be pleased to reveal.

Romans 8:28 does not say that God makes all things good, but rather that “in all things God works for the good of those who love him.” Confidence in God’s love, presence and providence does not require that we deny the objective reality of evil or say that pain rally does not hurt. Jesus delighted in doing God’s will, but he did not delight to go to the cross. The text says that Jesus “for the joy set before him endured the cross” (Heb 12:2). Any five-year old child know that you endure spinach, rutabaga and liver. Strawberry shortcake, chocolate ice cream and other good things are not endured – they are enjoyed. Given his omniscient knowledge of the plan of salvation as God’s eternal Son, Jesus saw joy before him, but as a man he did not enjoy either the prospect of, or the eventual reality of, the cross.

There is just too much agony in Gethsemane to believe the Savior was “just praising the Lord” on the Mount of Olives. Luke 22:44 says he was in anguish and sweat profusely. Hebrews 5:7 says he cried. He asked for the help of friends who failed him (Mk 14:32), and he needed the help of an angel to continue (Lk 22:43). If our Lord and Master cold be deeply distressed and troubled in the face of sin and evil, if he could say, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (Mk 14:33-34), if he cold cry . . . then why is it that we Christians continue to pretend – in the name of living the abundant or victorious life – that somehow it is good for bad things to happen and that dark is really light from God’s point of view?

If Jesus recoiled in abhorrence from personal suffering, by what sleight of hand do we conclude that it is “spiritual” to put on a happy face and lie to one another saying things like, “someday we’ll understand; … these things always work out for good”? Do promises that “I shall know fully, even as I am fully known” (1 Cor 13:12) mean that Christians will become omniscient? Certainly not. Because he was divine as well as human, Jesus understood the purpose of his suffering. But those who are only human are required to experience hurt, pain and suffering (even vicariously when others are in anguish) without certain knowledge about God’s purpose in causing or permitting it.

It is nevertheless reasonable, given what is revealed abut God’s nature in Scripture, to assume that God does not permit or cause suffering in a believer’s life as an end in itself. And despite our inner feelings that “we” or “they” don’t deserve to suffer, we must be open to the possibility that God intends for us to respond to suffering with questions about our holiness and justice, rather than about his. In his book Encourage Me: Caring Words for Heavy Hearts Chuck Swindoll says,

“Crisis crushes. And in crushing, it often refines and purifies. You may be discouraged today because the crushing has not led to a surrender. I’ve stood beside too many of the dying, ministered to too many of the broken and bruised to believe that crushing is an end in itself. Unfortunately, however, it usually takes the brutal blows of affliction to soften and pentrate hard hearts. Even though such blows seem unfair.”

Swindoll goes on to Quote Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s statement about his own suffering:
“It was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the stirrings of good. Gradually, it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties, but right through all human hearts. So, bless you, prison, for having been in my life.”


So What’s This Got to Do with Prayer?

I do not think we Christians can begin to pray effectively for ourselves or others in pain until we are honest. Because of our creatureliness, much, if not most, human suffering seems meaningless. Our conjectures about why people hurt obscure the fact that we simply don’t know why. It may seem helpful to suppose that God is doing or will do something good in these circumstances. But the truth is that we, like Job and mothers of Bethlehem, usually don’t know what is going on. What we know is that it hurts.

What we must stop doing is trying to be God, who can figure things out, and admit that we are creatures who cry. There is no victory in that (pagan) stoicism which says, “Smile even though it hurts; remember your testimony.” Such attitudes are a victory for deception and spiritual schizophrenia. Wonder Woman and Superman exist only in fantasy. And Christians who believe they must thank God for hurt are masochists who make God into a sadist. Read the Psalms again. Notice how David is when he prays, admitting his anguish, sorrow, grief and affliction (Ps 31:7, 9-10). We need not pretend to enjoy pain an and anguish in order to be found faithful and pray effectively.

The desire to be victorious in adversity can create divisions among Christians. Many of us wish to be victorious enough not to need the support and help of others. Not that we are unwilling to pray for and assist others – all victorious Christians do that. Rather, we have a feeling that it is wrong to find ourselves in the position of having to depend on others and their intercession. Part of the reason why we find it hard to be helpful to someone in agony is that we realize that it could happen to us. And our desire to be independent – to be omnipotent and need nobody else – is threatened. Hurt and pain bring us back to the reality of our creatureliness and dependency. We need other people. It is sin, vanity and godless egoism, not the principles of victorious Christian living, which have convince us otherwise.

Truly victorious Christians are those who admit Their humanness and who admit the emotional insult of God’s apparent silence when we suffer. They submit themselves to others and their Creator with tears on their faces. Such Christians can pray like Jesus, “Not as I will, but as thou wilt.” Jesus was heard, we are told in Hebrews 5:7, because of his “godly fear” (RSV) or “reverent submission” (NIV). He was not heard because he whistled in the dark. Jesus’ words showed his unconditional trust in the midst of fear and pain. In his Psalms of My Life, Joseph Bayly writes this prayer:

I cry tears
to you Lord
tears
because I cannot speak.
Words are lost
among my fears
pain
sorrows
losses
hurts
but tears
You understand
my wordless prayer
You hear.
Lord
wipe away my tears
all tears
not in distant day
but now
here.

When we stop pretending with ourselves, on another and with our Lord, this is the sort of prayer that comes forth.


Where the Buck Finally Stops

We will begin to reconstruct our prayer life during and after suffering by letting go of the why questions. We should ask instead, as Philip Yancey does, Where is God when it hurts? The answer to this question is certain: He is on the cross, taking to himself in Christ the pain, agony and terror of all suffering in the whole universe. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Cor 5:19 NASB). “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 Jn 2:2). As Hugh Silvester says:

“God has “underwritten” and carried to Himself the incalculable suffering of the whole universe. The spectacle of Him merely sitting above the earth, “arranging” things, watching with detached interest the suffering of His creatures, measuring that suffering with delicate cosmic galvanometers and comparing it with equally sensitive reading on the good side . . . is indeed revolting. But I do not find this picture of God in the Bible. . . . One thing seems to me self-evident: that every particle of suffering in the whole belongs to Him as subject. He underwrote the whole cost Himself. Every time a rabbit is pursued, or a widow cries, or a man acts like a beast, God is there bearing it all . . . God is “responsible” for all the suffering because He is Creator. As Redeemer He has carried that responsibility.”

It may not seem obvious that on the cross Jesus entered into suffering for nonbelievers and animals, but what seems unmistakable is that God directly identifies with Christian suffering. Christ himself asked the violent Saul, “Why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4). And we can draw a similar implication from Matthew where Jesus says, “Whatever you did for one . . . of these brothers of mine, you did for me” (25:20). God does not watch us suffer from the security of a painless heaven, where all is bliss and joy. In Jesus he is a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. Our question How can we pray to a God who lets people hurt? must be changed. The real question is, Can we pray to a God who died for people who hurt?

In Christ God suffered alone, utterly and completely alone, so that you and I would never have to suffer alone. “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you” (Heb 13:5). Because he was made like us in all respects when he suffered, he is able to sympathize with our weakness and will provide mercy and grace to help in times of need (Heb 2:14-18; 4:14-16). His concern for us is not measured by how much our pain might be reduced “if he really cared.” Rather his sympathy is better evaluated in light of how much agony he endured on our behalf.

When the creation groans in the frustration of evil (Rom 8:19-22), when we groan in physical and emotional pain (2 Cor 5:2, 4) and are numbed speechless by our inability to understand (Rom 8:26), God hears (Ex 2:24; Judg 2:18; Ps 5:1). Through the Spirit who lives in us, he himself groans (Rom 8:26). God has not stayed a comfortable distance away, clucking and saying, “I told you so; you should have listened.” As the body of Christ, Christians know hat “if one part suffers, every part suffers with it” (1 Cor 12:26). Since we are united with Christ and since Christ is God, then when we suffer, God himself suffers.

Through Christ, the Spirit, and brothers and sisters in the faith, God provides endurance and encouragement when we suffer. In the future, there is absolutely no doubt he will provide complete victory over evil, sin and death. In Jesus God has given us a basis for realistic hope . . . even when it hurts. This is what makes it possible for Paul to say, “We rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings” (Rom 5:2). Hope means that the cross is not just a statement about help and encouragement in the present. It is also, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:57, and airtight guarantee of future victory over evil, sin and pain. Because of the cross, the day is coming when all evil will be answered with justice; all sin not forgiven through Christ will be punished. The day is coming when the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Rev 21:3-5)

This final certainty is what makes me desire to pray to a God who allows so many to hurt. When it hurts too much, I need you to pray for me.

(“The God Who Hears” by W. Bingham Hunter, pp. 76-93)

There is a lot to read here, and I'll probably have to read it several times.

Thanks,

T

ForeverHers..
I just listened to a sermon on the fact that when Jesus was on the cross, when he had taken on every infirmity, sickness, disease, every sin and more, that it surely didn't look peaceful, it didn't look like he had overcome, it didn't look like anything good could come of it....BUT on that third day when He arose, WOW, how glorious.

And Sunday, our sermon was on the woman whose daughter was possessed by demons. She had traveled to see Jesus and asked Jesus to heal her daughter. Jesus didn't answer her. She persisted and the disciples wanted her to go away. She persisted. She was willing to challenge Jesus and say that even the dogs get to eat the scraps. It was her persistent faith that got Jesus to the point of healing her daughter. Now, I'm not as eloquent as you but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Sometimes God doesn't answer and I read the excerpt from the book and how awesome it sounds. Or sometimes God answers in a way we don't understand. I have purposed in my heart though, that God has a lot of promises in the bible (HIS WORD) for me and I will stand on those no matter what the situation looks like. I have purposed in my heart that God is in control and that I will see good things in the land of the living. I have purposed in my heart that I will have faith and persistent faith.

I don't want to hijack the thread as Tony's concerns are weighing on his mind. I just wanted you to know I appreciate your response - many of us I'm sure can grow from it.

Hi Tony,

Boy, lots of good stuff to read here.

It remembered last night (as I cried into my pillow over my recent loss) reading about big 'T's' dealing with negative feelings. We dont do them very well. We feel very overwhelmed and out of control. It freaks us out more than your average 'F'. It's very hard for us Control-types to feel so out of control.

I told my very 'F' H about this feeling of being out of control and panic, and he said, "Really?!? That's strange. I would have never guessed that."

I just wanted to say that I am sorry you are in so much pain right now. I hope it lessens quickly for you. Please take care - Dru

Which is it? You postulate that God may be keeping YD from me to protect her, so she is with WxW and MOM and not with me.

Then you tell me God doesn't want this.

Which is it?

I understand that God can choose to keep away. I don't believe that I can make him stay away.

I have had more peace this week. I have been hearing one message loud and clear, forgiveness. It was last weeks Divorce Care lesson, it was a big part of Dr. David Jeremiah's teaching on Jonah this week. Also heard a fair amount about forgiveness and divorce in the broadcasts by Chip Ingram this week.

I've made a conscious effort when I feel anger, frustration and the desire to seek revenge to give those thoughts and feelings to God.

I really think I'm finding it easier to forgive XW now that the divorce is over, most if not all of her stuff is out of the house, the place is becoming spotless (the way I like it) and I can exercise control over what I can control.

The house goes up for sale by the end of next week. It should be clean enough and enough of the little maintenance tasks should be done to put it up for sale.

Maybe I've just given up on the dead dream.

I just can't shake the idea that this isn't right and that I wasn't able to do more to make it right. That my love wasn't attractive enough for XW to choose rebuilding a life with me instead of choosing a man who would cheat and leave his wife of 30 years.

Part of me feels bad because she will have a price to pay for this. Not anything I would do to her, but what God sets as her consequence.

During our divorce care class this week, our only other male member said something really profound, and it was backed up in Chip Ingrams messages this week. To paraphrase, it goes like this: "We have to let go of our anger and desire for revenge, we have to get out of the way so God can deliver his consequences to the unrepentant person who hurt us.

I know this is a nit-picky thing, but one thing I noticed about XW before I married her was that she seldom if ever said please or thank-you. I'm at the other end of the extreme, I say thank you if you ask me for something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But the really cool part was when I had my YD this week I caught her being good. The neighbor gave her some crickets from his fishing boat. She said "thank you!" She is learning to say please and thank you. Of course, I praised her for having such good manners.

It made me feel good that she is picking up some good traits from her old man.

Maybe I can do the same, pick up some traits from the only father I've known, the Heavenly Father.

T

Tony,

Praise be the Lord today! I just want to say that this latest post of yours sounds different. It doesn't sound so angry. It sounds a little bit more peaceful.

You said:




Tony, I believe this is you letting go of your XW. I believe you are giving her to God, the only thing you can do for her right now. And this is a very big step in your spiritual journey. You've been holding on to her for so long now & you're just plain tired. Have you ever heard the story, The Rope? About the guy that was too afraid to let go of his rope from a mountain, asking God to help him, not to let him die & what he didn't realize was that if he had listened to God telling him to "Let Go," he would have discoverd that he was only 2 feet from the ground. The man died holding on to that rope.

That message really stuck out for me in my situation b/c I too kept holding on to this rope, my M, my H, afraid to really let go & get "the big D word" b/c I was afraid that it would have been too late then. But thankfully, our God is an awesome God, who can deliver even after we've given up hope. So, although you don't know the outcome of what's going to happen, now that you're letting go of your XW, maybe this is when God will draw you closer to Him & give you a little bit more reassurance that you're not alone. Just look at that message you've been hearing (& yes, that IS God speaking to you -- through OTHERS). God will most often speak to us through someone else, at least, that's what I've found for me. And He usually uses the most unusual ways to speak to us. Yes, it can be confusing at times. I've had it happen to me quite often.



I think a little part of you will always feel this way. It's the compassion inside of you, a trait that God himself has bestowed upon you. It's the human desire to question, the human desire to say to ourselves, "What if...", "If only I had...".



And rightly you should. You can't get away w/your YD not having ANY traits from you. She sees your goodness. Hold onto that & don't let HER give up on God. Teach her to be faithful & obedient & steadfast. Show her the love from God that your XW isn't showing her. One passage keeps coming to mind, "You will know them by their fruits." YOu are the tree here, Tony. YOur YD is the branch. Guide her, teach her that although we may not understand God's ways, & can't hear HIm some of the time, He will always love us & do what's best for us. If your YD sees you content w/o your XW, still happy & thankful & faithful after everything you've been through, she will know God. Be her light Tony.



So much hope in this last statement. So much hope. I can see it shining through. Let your rope be God now Tony. Now you don't have the extra weight holding you down. You're free to soar. This doesn't mean that you give up hope completely on your M, or that your XW will ever want to come back. It just means that for right now, you have a more important journey to undertake. You're on a new mission. Seeking to get closer to God. And maybe, when you least expect it (b/c you know our God & how he just LOVES miracles! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), He will deliver that promise of a restored M in a very unusual way.

This is just the beginning for you Tony. Start w/today & thank God that your YD has someone who she can turn to to teach her God's ways. YOU.

MB hugs {{{{Tony}}}}

Tony, you might want to skip this post because I'm going to be doing a little "venting" of my growing frustration with you. You should know that God has been teaching me "patience" as one of the lessons he has had for me from my wife's affair, but that I am basically an "impatient" person. Add to that mix what I told you earlier about being a similar "I'm from Missouri" type, and you and I are alike in many ways.

So, unlike ST, I DON'T see a "change" in you. I see more of the same. Any change is merely superficial and fatalistic.

A question, Tony. What on earth prompted you to dredge up a post from April 13 that you had already commented on once and use it for yet another opportunity to "pick a fight" with Steadfast & Committed?

The gist of the last two posts I made for you is that YOU don't understand, and until you are ready to, you never will. You will always "be searching, never finding" because you LIKE argumentative discussions and you LIKE ignoring the things are not "in your comfort zone."

Here's an example:

Which is it? You postulate that God may be keeping YD from me to protect her, so she is with WxW and MOM and not with me.

Then you tell me God doesn't want this.

Which is it?

Which do YOU think it is, Tony?

Do you, or S&C, or myself, or any Christian BELIEVE that God WANTS sin and hurt in the lives of His children?

Tony your answer to your question (and I sure hope you already knew it even though you chose to post such response to S&C that indicated a gross lack of knowledge) is contained in one very simple phrase:

[color:"red"]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [/color] (John 3:16 NIV)

Tony, it is, and always has been, God's WANT that none shall perish. God did everything necessary so that NONE need perish. But, "whoever believes" is quite clear....God will FORCE no one. God's provision was made out of love for those who were in lost adultery FROM him, "while we were lost, Christ died for us." God HAS done all that is necessary. For you to respond to S&C in such a manner as you did indicates a gross misunderstanding of what God did and what it means to be a Christian, OR you are allowing your anger to control your actions and speech in an effort to be "argumentatitive" where no argument is needed. In short, you won't surrender your wants and desires to God and simply DO as God says no matter what or how you are feeling. You prefer to "give in to disobedience," or "sin" if you will.

How else do YOU explain your retort to S&C?

I understand that God can choose to keep away. I don't believe that I can make him stay away.

You aren't serious about this are you? SIN is anathema to God. Sin WILL and DOES "keep God away." As Christ warned, "you cannot serve two masters..."

Can God "intervene" whenever He wants to? Of course, but that primary "intervention" came in the person and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Are you trying to "put God to the test?" If you are, be very careful.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone opens the door, the Father and I will come in and make our home with him."

[color:"red"]Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." [/color] (Rev. 3:19-20 NIV)

Tony, you are back to picking out posts that you want to disagree with and argue against. But you are "ignoring" the posts that are sincerely trying to help you.

I just can't shake the idea that this isn't right and that I wasn't able to do more to make it right. That my love wasn't attractive enough for XW to choose rebuilding a life with me instead of choosing a man who would cheat and leave his wife of 30 years.

Tony, I have no doubt that you, as did I, "fell short" in our implementation of God's command to "love your wife." I have no doubt that our lack of spiritual leadership in the home "contributed" to the atmosphere that allowed the temptations to appear more attractive to our spouses. NO ONE is without sin. But "tempatation" is one thing, "surrendering to temptation" and choosing to sin against GOD is the CHOICE of the individual sinner whether it is you and me in following ALL of God's commands or our spouses in choosing to commit Adultery.

Tony, you are right, it ISN'T right. It's called SIN. Nothing can make sin "right." To give you a "reference," I'm quite certain that in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the father was quite "right" in all that he did. Yet the son chose to accept temptation and sin REGARDLESS of how "good a job" the father had been doing in parenting. The father gave the son what the son demanded and let him make his own choices, turning him over to God. Should the father "beat himself up" over his son's sinful choices? No, he waited for the son to "come to his senses" and then he welcomed him home with celebration because the "lost has been found." The son NEVER ceased being the father's son, but he was NOT in fellowship with him while he was sinning. For the son's part, it took finally reaching the point of TOTAL surrender, even if it was no longer being a "son." The son was "crushed," convicted, remorseful, repentant, humbled." He was, in fact, a broken lump of clay given over to the father to be reshaped as the father saw fit, into any vessel the father wanted.

Tony, you are still "fighting God." At least your postings indicate that. You have not reached the point of "surrender" yet. You keep reserving something, most prominently your anger that "you did it right" and can't understand "what went wrong" or "why did God allow these events in my life?"

Tony, until you reach the point where you can "accept" that God does not have to tell you, me, or anyone "WHY" he chooses to do, or allow something, you will remain at enmity with God's sovereignty. God MAY make it clear at some point why these events have transpired, but regardless of whether or not He ever does, God is EXPECTING a response of "surrender" from you. As Paul "surrendered" to the fact that the "thorn in his flesh" would remain, he also surrendered to allowing God to be Lord of his life. Despite the fact that "thorn" would never leave, Paul CHOSE to submit and follow God's commands and Choices in humble obedience to the ONE true LORD and Sovereign.

Maybe I can do the same, pick up some traits from the only father I've known, the Heavenly Father.

And excellent desire and the basis of a very good prayer. May God grant THIS desire of your heart.

Tony, if you HAVE read this despite my opening warning, please accept my apology if what I have said seems offensive to you. Please understand that we (all of us fellow Christians) hurt when a brother is hurting and/or confused. It is my desire that you WILL find answers to your many questions and that even if you don't get those answers for a long time, that you will surrender to God regardless and follow His commands in humble obedience even if it seems "unfair" that you have to. In some cases it will be "unfair." We all know that, as sin has many consequences that have an effect on many around the sinner, as does a spouse's choice to engage in adultery.

God bless.

FH,

Is it now you who is expecting instant change? So I take it you don't believe that change is taking place?

So we can agree to disagree, I do believe that change is taking place. I'm sorry it doesn't meet with your time table. I've had a pretty peaceful week.

I haven't claimed that I have gotten to where I am always able to let go of the anger. What I have gotten to is that I can recognize sooner when I'm feeling that way, and I stop what is taking me down that path.

Here I am listening to what I believe are folks who have been able to recover their marriages. (There may be a few exceptions.)

Look, I failed, and I'm a perfectionist, so this isn't going to be easy for me. My family has been torn up, I get to see my daughter infrequently at best, I've been told by some here that perhaps God is keeping her from me, and I asked the legitimate question why God would put her with XW and MOM who certainly are staying away from God.

No one has answered that question? No one has even said, "Hey Tony, I can see where you might think that."

Instead, I'm just told what I'm thinking and feeling is wrong, that I'm doing it wrong.

Then, the first time I write and say I'm hearing a clear message from God, and you tell me you don't see any change.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!?!?!?!?!?!?

Isn't the underlying question about how can I better hear God?

So I said that I heard Him this week, and I get blasted for still having questions and now progressing fast enough for you.

Yes I understand you are frustrated, welcome to my world.

T

Tony,



If you feel different this week somehow, then yes, I do believe that change is taking place. It doesn't happen overnight. Only little bits at a time until you feel like a whole new man. All I've heard in your posts lately is so much confusion, anger & frustration. To hear you talk of peace this week, boosts MY spirits that I know you're going to get there. I have faith that you will.



This is growth. Even one iota of growth is better than none. It is a continual process. We never stop growing. We aspire to be more Christ-like every day. I for one am proud of you.


I think your questions are a part of your healing process. When someone's world is rocked, they do ask questions of God, of themselves, they start to question everything they've ever known to be true. So I don't think you're alone. It kind of goes more along the lines of questioning things like why some people who are obviously bad parents giving birth left & right & children are left unattended, undisciplined, neglected, etc. & some people who would make terrific parents are left childless or other examples along those lines. I think it's human nature to ask those questions, not understanding what is God's purpose in His divine plan? God did not make us robots. He gave us brains to think with, to question, to make intelligent choices. Even Jesus questioned God. It is human nature. I think the more you go along your spiritual journey Tony, the more you'll see the answers to your questions. THe key here is patience. To wait on HIS timing.

I for one see your growth this week Tony. I also see the frustration that FHs was talking about. But it can't come all at once. It's all a process & I think any growth, no matter how small in someone else's eyes, is still growth & should be commended. Is there more work to do? Definitely. But I am still happy to hear that you have received a little piece of peace (no pun intended <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) this week. That's more than what's been happening for the past few months.

Something else occured to me whilst I was doing the dishes. I've been told that God speaks to people through other people. In this thread, we see one of the problems with this idea. People don't agree.

In the past few posts, one person has said she see growth and change, yet another person says he doesn't see it.

Which is speaking for God?

Which person do I listen to?

What does God have to say about this?

Does everyone see why I just want to hear from God, it's so much more clear, and so much less confusing.

T

Tony, I think that can be answered by you yourself. Have YOU noticed a change in YOURSELF? Do YOU feel that God has spoken to you? Do you feel that you are a little bit closer than where you were a week ago? Even just a little bit?

Let me also ask you this -- in what way do you think God SHOULD speak to you in order for it to be clear that it is indeed God speaking to you? How will YOU be able to recognize that God is talking to you?

This week, or ever? I thought God told me that I would not be divorced. Yet here I am, divorced.

So do I trust the messages I hear this week? Or will they be as unreliable as what I thought I heard nearly a year ago?


Perhaps, but I'm not certain.

Well, a note would be nice. Some night when I'm alone in the house, God could just leave me a note letting me know what it is he wants me to do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Of course, some will argue that I'm not demonstrating faith. Well, I did demonstrate faith that this divorce would not be final, and yet it was.

So my faith needs a LOT of bolstering right now, because events have happened that go counter to the will of God, and all I hear is that I'm supposed to have more faith.

So I ask God to pick me up.
To help me focus on what He wants me to do.
To help me focus on doing my job better.
To answer my questions about should I sell my home, or refinance, where does He want me?
Should I wait for my ex-Wife to return, or should I move on. I would love to have an answer to that one.

Should I wait for a Proverbs 31 kinda woman? If so, where does God suggest I find one.

Even more importantly, what do I need to change before I ready for this woman?

There are so many questions, and I still have a daughter to raise, bills to pay, cars to maintain, and customers to serve. Plus, I have to put God first. I have to trust Him, and I admit that it's tough without knowing what he wants me to do.

So I have to have faith only that He has a plan for my life, even if He is not willing to reveal what this plan is.

I still have that blank sheet of paper, ready for God to fill it out.

I know it's easier for me to do His plan than to fight against it. What's hard is know what His plan is.

I believe most of the folks I'm writing to now got what they asked of God, a marriage in recovery.

Are any of you divorced? I think everyone recently writing is still with their spouse. If so, how can you sit there and tell me that I'm not recovering fast enough, or that I can't ask God the questions I'm asking.

I've wanted to be in your shoes, working on a recovering marriage, head of a family that puts God first.

Have you put yourself in my shoes, disappointed with God, wondering what went wrong, and where to go from here?

T