FH,

Can you point to anywhere where you've told me I've done something right?

Or am I always wrong?

I just realized that you are playing my role in the marriage. My ex wife told me she always felt wrong, that she couldn't be herself around me.

Well brother, I believe you have stepped into my role in the marriage regarding this exchange.

I have admitted that I'm angry, angry that Satan won this battle. I'm disappointed, not angry that God chose not to speak in a fashion to either her or me so that we could see what He wanted us to do and stop the divorce.

She chose divorce, I can't blame God for that.

But I can blame God for not sending her a message that was clear and unmistakable that she had to consider otherwise. You wrote in your text that God did send people to speak to you and your wife. The message was clear enough for you two to begin reconciliation.

I asked the question of my pastor about who spoke to my wife and got a blank stare.

So I ask God why.

Of course I don't feel satisfied. Did you read or even acknowledge the difference between Jesus and me, why I believe it's easier for Jesus to take what is happening, because he knew the plan.

Nope, I didn't read anything that says, yeah, I can understand that point of view.

Instead, you seem to concentrate on what is wrong with my point of view.

Let's start with what I'm doing right.

First, I'm asking God what it is He wants me to do.
Second, I have enough faith in God to know that He can handle my questioning. He isn't so fragile or quick to anger that he'll strike me in fear or anger.
Third, I'm trying to understand God.
Fourth, I'm trying to resolve what I feel and believe and know with all of this.

The facts are as I presented before:

1. Divorce is not the will of God.
2. I prayed for the divorce to be stopped and believe that God would grant my prayer.
3. I prayed as a believer who repented of my sin and seeking to place my life in the center of the will of God.
4. There is scripture that indicates that such prayers are granted by God.

I didn't pray for winning the lottery, or getting a new Mercedes, or anything selfish, I prayed to have my family restored, for what purpose? To glorify God and to provide a testimony of what God can do.

Yeah, that sounds really selfish.

So what's so wrong about asking God to explain why this isn't His will, since it seems to go counter to scripture.

Scripture explains the crucifiction. I agree, it seems wrong that God would want His innocent son to die. However, scripture is full of explainations that this is a new covenant, and that Christ was the perfect sacrifice for sin.

Scripture says NOTHING about what God has planned for my family and me and why a divorce is his path for my family and me, going counter to the scripturally recorded will of God.

FH, I want to thank you again for showing me what I did wrong, not so much in your words, but how you treated me. I can see why my wife left, because I now see myself in your behavior.

We both are people who cannot be wrong.

You win, I'm wrong, and I'm gone for a while.

T



T

So me asking God to explain the logical disconnect is not reasoning, but feeling?

This sir is an example of where you first accuse me of only operating on feelings, but skirt my questions that are reasoning based.

This quest started in the realm of reasoning. The very essence of this was and in many respect still is, what are God's reasons and plans for this?

You can sit there and say I'm not reasoning. The facts are, the lack or reason has brought me to where I am today.

When I seek reason, you tell me I'm wrong, that God is allowed to have His reason and we shouldn't question the nature of God.

When I speak of how that makes me feel, you accuse me of being shallow and operating in the dangerous and often misleading realm of feelings.

When I say I'm having a hard time experiencing God, you tell me to do things I'm already doing. You allude that I must be doing something wrong, or that perhaps I'm not saved. But again, the fault lies with me.

So in all of these cases, you essentially told me I was wrong.

No matter what I did, I was wrong.

T

Tony,

I'm sorry FH's postings have made you this angry. I respectfully ask you to consider carrying on our discussion that we started. I hope I don't make you quite as angry in my posts. I really am trying to help you overcome your doubts about God & the possibilities of why God hasn't answered your prayer yet. I know you're confused, hurting & falling.

I do not understand the pain of D, but I do know the pain of loss & the wondering of why God didn't intervene & save my father's life to give him a 2nd chance at life & the 2nd chance to stop drinking.

Please don't let one member drive you away from a community that cares about you. I remember you were one of the first people to pray for me when I first came to MB in 2003 & this prayer community was one of the reasons I stayed.

Could you read my last post to you again & try to pick it apart & give me your thoughts? We'll help you sort this out Tony if you just stick w/us. And try not to let one member put you over the edge & stop posting. I know I've had to refrain myself from a few posters that have gotten my dander up.

Weep with those who weep. Mourn with those who mourn. Celebrate with those who celebrate.
***

FH, you seem to feel you have wasted your time. Maybe you have. But the only person who sounds angry in their posts is YOU. Angry that you can't "get through" to Tony and help him see the error of his ways.

You seem to think that you have the answer, and that if he would only listen to you, he would move past this place of pain.

Even Jesus didn't do that. He KNEW he was going to raise the widow's son from the dead, but what did he do as he saw the funeral procession? He WEPT. (Same with Lazarus).

If Jesus allowed himself to be sad with people without trying to emotionally browbeat them into understanding and greater faith, what right do YOU have to hit Tony so hard?

Maybe he is being "unreasonable" in his sadness. Maybe he can't move past it right now. Maybe it will be a long long time before he is ready to move out of his hurt and pain.

So what? Isn't God big enough to handle his yucky feelings? Who is in the big hurry--God, or YOU?

Tony,


Yesterday I was reading an e-mail you sent to me last year in Jan. about an e-mail your W sent you in Sept. of 2003. I was seeing the same thing as you just said here. I was wondering how it was affecting you to have the roles reversed?

Tony, I think this is a very important thing for you. I know your W has told you how she felt, but is this the first time you've ever "felt" what she was feeling?

I say that it is important because, if it is the first time you actually "felt" what she has been feeling (and probably continues to feel), I believe God is handing you a wonderful revelation. What you do with it is equally as important. The question now becomes; "How do I learn to communicate with her in light of what I have learned?" Or; "How do I communicate learn how to communicate with others in light of this new revelation?"

I had a very hard time understanding what my W was feeling. And that was part of our problem. But once my heart was at the right place God did an amazing thing for me. It was something I really didn't like and scared the bejeezes out of me.

One morning I was driving into work and my breathing changed. I was taking shorter breaths. When I arrived I started feeling a tingling sensation in my lips and fingers of my left hand. It seemed to be getting worse. As I was asking someone to take me to the hospital my speech starting getting funny. I thought I was having a stroke. After all of the tests were done I was told that I had experienced an anxiety attack and was hyper-ventalating. I had never ever had such an experience, but God revealed to me that this is similar to what my W would experience when she had her anxiety attacks. He allowed me to this so i would be able to really "relate" to her when she told me about things. It didn't stop there, God allowed me to experience a lot of other stuff she went through (low-self esteem, rejection, loneliness etc.) all things that were very foreign to me. And I realized how messed up it was for her and how I had dismissed her feelings, opinions all those years.

I didn't know if it was too late for me to do anything about it or not but one thing I did know. I could start using the info now and maybe it would help me reach my W or if I had to use it for my next W. But I knew I couldn't waste the revelation.

I hope you understand what you've been given here.

I also came across something else that reminded me of why I am still here with you. You told this specific group of people "I think S&C is the only one that understands." I told you I don't plan on going away. But I would also like to submit something to you: And that is that God is working here and that FH was sent here by God to help you understand this revelation. I often wondered why this forum was the only one he could get into and what role God would have him play.

I don't believe FH is as bad as you think. But I do know, he tries to be obedient to what God asks of him.

Please consider this Tony. My prayers are with you.

Blessing to you.

S&C

Telly, if it makes you feel better to continue attacking me, then please feel free to do so.

But don't you think your time might be better spent in taking up the task of trying to help Tony get "answers" to his questions, to give him things to think about that might help him find the peace he is longing for?

As I said in response to your previous attack, I turn over the reins of trying to help him to you. I sincerely hope you have the "magic key" that will help him because none of us likes to see a brother in Christ struggling so much with in his faith in God and with all of his doubts.

But if you'd care for a little "advice," I'd suggest that before you begin trying to offer help to him you go back to the beginning of his postings from September of 2003 and read all the threads to get a "feel" for just where Tony is "at" and what, if any, progress he has made. That will help you in the "milk versus meat" decision as to what to discuss with him.

God bless.

Tony, as I said, I'm done. I have copied every post you have made since you began posting and I'm debating whether or not it's worth the time to compose "one last post" based on your history of posting and dealing with this mess since September of 2003.

You continue to accuse me of things I haven't done or said, but you gloss over anything that doesn't simply say that you have a right to be angry and a right to be "upset" with the way God has reacted to your marital problems.

So, against my better judgment I'll comment on a few things you said, but I'm not sure why because I don't see you as being ready to hear anything, clear message or not.



God DID speak clearly to both of you. But neither of you were listening. Not listening is NOT God's fault.




Oh sure you blame God. God DID send her a clear, unmistakeable, message. She chose to ignore it. Don't blame God for HER sin in that matter.

Tony, since you don't like me to include the specfic Scripture references to each of these CLEAR and UNMISTAKEABLE messages, I won't. If perchance you might actually want them, say so and I will provide them. If not, let me give you a "starting hint" as to where you can begin to find them for yourself....."thou shalt NOT commit...."


Tony, you know not whereof you speak. Let me clue you in. God sent her father to talk to her (he flew in specifically to confront her). God sent our Counselor who is a member of the National Association of Nouthetic Counselor and the President of Ministers for Nouthetic Ministries. God sent our two sons, grounded in their walks with God to speak to her while we were separated and our two daughters who made it clear by choosing NOT to speak to her, that "all is NOT well" with a choice for adultery. And lastly, God sent me, broken and humbled that I had failed miserably in my God-given role as husband, yet forgiven by God and capable of passing that forgiveness on to the one I loved as MY bride.

If no one in your church approached your wife in a loving Matthew 18:15-20 intervention, then I'm sorry that the church failed in one of it's biblical responsibilities and would suggest that perhaps a different church might serve you better in the future.



Yes, you ask, but you don't like hearing the answers because they don't have the right "feel" to you.




Tony,the sheer arrogance of this statement is both stunning and revealing. You have NO concept of the depth and magnitude of the pain that Jesus endured in taking on ALL of the sins of the all people. You trivialize it and denegrate the sacrifice he made with a simple, "I believe it's easier for Jesus to take what is happening, because he knew the plan."

Tony, by your style of reasoning, all this should be easy for you because you knew the plan for a Christian marriage, the roles God has assigned to husband's and wives, that God has COMMANDED husbands to love their wives but has not commanded wives to love their husbands. Husbands earn their wive's love by being God's servants. But then, you knew the plan, right?

I could go on, but you like short posts and there's really little point in continuing in my opinion. NOTHING has changed Tony since previous threads and I agree, you have too much pain and anger to hear much above the "roar" in our own mind and ears.

It hurts, there's NO denying that. But hurt is no excuse for not ... you fill in the blanks as you see fit.

God bless.

StandingTogether, what is there to say.

I do things for others, I pray, I read scripture, is it so wrong to have two reasons to do this.

First, because it's what God would have me to do. Second, because I think it's the direction I need to change.

I had less drama spending the entire day with XW on a school field trip than I've had on this board. Of course XW is still against almost anything I suggest.

I mentioned the Kids Care class that goes along with my Divorce Care and that I wanted YD to take the class this fall. XW asked how long the class was, and I told her 13 weeks. She said, no, I mean what time is it over, and I said at 6pm on Sunday nights. So she said well you don't have to have her back until 7pm. I said, it meets every week, so I wanted to take her on Sundays that were not my parenting time. She said, "I don't want to ever go to that church again." I said, I'm not asking you to, I was going take her. So she says she can't plan that far in the future and to ask her later.

I don't know what her fear is, why she's afraid to go to the church where she was baptised.

I do think her taking the Divorce Care class might be helpful. It really has helped me.

Maybe I've not made the progress that FH would like to see me make. Well, he can get in line for being disappointed, because I'm not happy with my progress either.

How could I be? I don't feel close to God, even after doing what everyone as well as scripture suggests. My covenant wife runs from me, even nearly two years after she left.

I don't seek to hurt a single person, yet she is afraid to be with me, others get hurt when I don't follow their advice or just lay down and take what they have to say without asking questions.

I felt like XW after reading what FH's wrote, but I never said anything remotely like to that to XW.

I did have problems with anger, and I really think I've come a long way with that. I've not arrived yet.

I guess I'm disappointed that XW doesn't seem to be progressing. If I was such a bad influence, then why doesn't she have confidence around me? If what she did seems so right to her, why can't she look me in the eye? Why can't she just tell me what she thought I did wrong?

If this is all about me wanting the house cleaner than she was willing to keep it, then I'm not sure I'm the one with a problem.

We successfully watched 4 children today, including our daughter on the field trip. No yelling, nothing.

I thought it was funny at times. She offered peanuts to YD, passing them by me, but didn't offer them to me. I offered to share things I had with her as well as others.

She didn't even ask me when the field trip sign up came, she just signed herself up. I got word of the field trip in the Friday folder flyer and sent the teacher an e-mail asking if she needed me to chaparone.

It just bugs me that it appears XW does everything she can to exclude me from as much of YD's life as she can. She was planning to take YD for ice cream after the field trip, but since I was there, she didn't want to take her. She said, "It looks like daddy wants to take you home." To which I replied, we can all go for ice cream first. XW said no, and then YD said she didn't want to go for ice cream anyway.

XW has told me in very clear terms that she doesn't even want to be friendly with me.

YD tells me she is planning to marry MOM, so I'm not seeing the hope there either.

It just hurts to see Satan winning this one.

What growth do I have to do for that to not hurt?
What solid food scripturally do I have to eat to fix all of this?

I said I know how XW must have felt. What I don't see is how my actions caused her to feel that way.

What if it wasn't me? What if it was?

I'd like to know if it was so I knew what to change.

Why do I even want her back? Why can't I just let her go?

I really wish God would tell me what He wants me to do. Well, I guess letting go is really the only viable answer. There is nothing to hold onto.

Thanks,

T

First of all, this isn't wrong. It's what you're supposed to do, so keep doing it. Second, since you feel this is an area you need work on, then by all means, do it. Even if you feel that you haven't grown, keep doing it. Eventually, you will look back & realize you DID grow.



I'll pray w/you that this happens. Sounds like a wonderful program for your YD. We can pray together your XW's heart softens in this area.



Her fear? She's probably TERRIFIED of the way people will look at her & how God will look at her. There's something about walking into a church that makes you think about the sins in your life. Your XW doesn't want to face what she's doing to God right now.



She's definitely not ready to handle this class. Although it would be useful to her, she probably won't get much out of it right now w/the way she's behaving.



Good. You've grown. Congratulations. Give yourself a pat on the back b/c you've recognized a problem that you had & are working on correcting it. All we can do is realize the mistakes we've made & try our best not to repeat them & to change them.



Let me tell you something that happened close to our D-day clear up until H came home. He was mean. Nasty. Said things out of spite & anger deliberately to push me away from him. This could be going on w/her. In my H's mind, if he pushed me far enough away from him, said mean things to me, give me reasons to hate him, I would back off & not want to be w/him. Kind of like saying to myself, Good riddance. He wanted to justify his actions. He wanted me to hate him so it would be easier for him to walk away. "See, she doesn't want me anyway. She thinks I'm a selfish SOB." This was his rationale. Only by my continuing loving actions & consistent prayer did he make a turnaround & I have to give God the credit b/c He was the one who changed his heart around. I don't know why God hasn't changed your XW's heart yet. There has to be a reason & only God knows what that reason is. Maybe something needs to happen in HER life in order for HER to be broken & submit to Him in humble obedience. See, in my case, no matter what my H was choosing to do, I chose to take the higher road. I chose to follow Jesus & continue to follow Jesus, no matter what my H did to me, no matter how he treated me. I based this on the fact that Jesus himself chose to forgive EVERYONE for nailing Him to a cross. I was not about to let my H's actions dictate how I was to treat him as a fellow human being. For God tells us, What good does it do to love those who only love us back or do for those who only do for us in return? Loving your enemies is what Jesus stressed. Doing good for others despite what they're doing back to you. Endurance. Enduring the pain, suffering for doing God's will. That is a great reward. It shows God how committed you are to His way of loving the unlovable.

As far as your XW's needs. You say that you don't know what you did to weaken the M. Is it possible for you to print out an EN questionnaire & then answer it to the best of your ability from your XW's POV? Can you remember things that she said during the course of your M that she wanted you to improve? Anything that might help you complete the questionnaire? This might be able to give you a little bit of insight into what you might need to improve if you feel that you still need improvement.

God says for H's to love their W's just as Christ loves His church. I take that to mean, even dying for her as Christ died for His bride. To lay down your life for another. Do you have that kind of love for your XW? If so, then there probably isn't a whole lot more you can do to improve in that department. What matters now is your R w/God & getting that in right order & since you feel you need improvement in that area, I think that's where you need to concentrate your efforts. Maybe a good solid prayer releasing your XW into His hands & then sticking to it & not taking it back. Once you release your XW into God's hands, then you must step back from the situation & let God handle it. He needs to work on her, you need to concentrate on you & your YD. And since your "Mr Impatient" as you put it, asking Him to give you strength to endure while you wait for Him to reveal His new plan for you.

You'll be surprised. God will answer you in a way that you never expected.

So what did God say for me to do that I'm not doing? I admitted to everyone here, to my XW, to her family, to my family what I thought I did wrong, what my plan was to fix it, and asked for them to show me if I was missing anything.

For you to now say that I'm not listening is a hard pill to swallow, considering I'm trying to listen. So please don't tell me I'm not listening.

You may not feel heard, but I am listening.

How do I know God sent her a message. She has told me that God tells her it's ok to divorce. So I ask her to "show her work" and she doesn't.

You and I know what the Bible says, but that doesn't mean she is in the word.

I don't even know where you get the idea that I don't want you to quote scripture. Please show me where I ever wrote, "Don't quote scripture" or anything similar to that. You won't find it in anything I've written.
I'm glad that you had so many people who cared enough for your marriage that they spoke to both you and your wife. I really don't understand what you mean by, "Tony, you know not whereof you speak" so I ask you to clarify this please.

The answers are speculation, don't you agree. Has God posted here and answered why?

Until then, we can speculate until the second coming.

Well you can twist this anyway you want. If I said it was easy for me, then I go against scripture. I'd like to think that I gave God credit for being God and being able to do anything, so when I say something is easy for God, that is a very high compliment.

For me to say it would be easy for me to do it, would be like putting myself up on a pedastal. Too bad you didn't catch my humbleness in that statement. You totally missed what I meant.

I'm being humble and you accuse me of being arrogant. Will you stop with the judgements now?

Well, let's take this out to the logical conclusion. I did love my wife. In many ways I still do. What I didn't do was love her the way she wanted to be loved.

Just because someone doesn't feel loved, doesn't mean they weren't loved. You folks are telling me this, right. Just because I don't feel loved by God, that doesn't mean that God doesn't love me.

So just because my XW didn't feel loved, that in no way means I didn't love her. The difference here, is that I'm trying to feel that love God has for me, AND learn how to love her the way God wants me to love her.

It seems you assumed I didn't love my wife. Not true. I do admit that I loved her in MY way. That's one of my sins.

So I dove into scripture, I came here, I worked with Steve H. I prayed, I asked to understand her heart, I asked for God love and the guidance to share that with her.

I asked for a chance to love her as Christ loved the church, as I loved myself.

So say what you want.

I did my best to show her that love, and she wasn't interested. She wants the worlds love from a married man who leaves his wife.

I'm disappointed.

I'm angry with you because it appears you twist what I say, make all sorts of DJ's about what you believe my motives are, accuse me of not loving my W/XW and being arrogant. I'm angry because you completely miss who I am.

FH, I think you mean well, but your judgments seem so far off the mark in so many ways.

Instead of considering that you may be off the mark on your judgments, you keep pounding away.

Instead of asking me how I loved my wife, you said I didn't love my wife.

Instead of asking me if I meant to be arrogant, you just assigned arrogance as a motive.

If you do this to your wife, she is a saint for putting up with it.

So what is it, shall I conclude that you don't love me because I don't feel the love from you? That's what you allude to, regarding my XW and me. Or that you don't love me because you don't seem to understand me?

Am I supposed to feel love in all those DJ's?

Instead of blowing off Telly's comments, why not examine them. Is your style the style of Jesus?

Or, I'll ask as Dr Phil does, how's this working for you?

Believe it or not, this is working for me.

T

The one thing I come back to is do I really know how to love?

T,

Follow the I Corinthians example of love. Follow each verse as it is written & see if you are doing those things. If not, then that's what you need to work on. Not just to your XW, but to human beings in general. We are to LOVE one another.

Let's go through them:

Love is -
1) Patient
2) Kind
3) Isn't jealous
4) Doesn't brag
5) Is humble
6) Is polite
7) Thinks of others first
8) Is calm
9) Doesn't hold grudges
10) Tells the truth
11) Protects
12) Is trusting
13) Always hopes
14) Perserveres

What things do you need to work on to show true love the Christian way?

What do I need to work on?

1
7
11
12
14

I can do a bit more analysis on these, but I'm going to bed. I had a full day in the sun and I have two 6 year old girls. (YD is having a friend sleep over tonight, so I may need my rest, LOL.)

I'll write more tomorrow, but other than the patience, the other issues really go back to trust, and I think that's founded in my prior experiences. How can I possibly trust that someone will take care of me after what I've experienced, including XW's affair.

T

Okay, now that you have those pointed out. You realize these about yourself. Now you can work on how you're going to go about trying to achieve those things. Chew off little bits at a time.

1) Patience - How can you achieve getting more patience? What steps do you have to take to achieve this goal?

Tony,

I didn't read your entire post. I'll post more this weekend. Right now it's off to watch a movie w/the kids. Here's to a peaceful night w/your YD.

Two 6 year olds?? That takes a lot of patience right there my friend!!! LOL

Well, as you alluded to, having two 6 year old girls spend the night is a start.

My laboratory is daily traffic. I really work on being patient when there are a bunch of people doing really silly and sometimes dangerous things in traffic.

I work on letting people in, instead of being competitive on the road. I remind myself that this person is just as much a creation of God as I am, and that my getting impatient with them really doesn't help things.

Ditto for some of my customers. They sometimes do some really goofy things and want me to bail them out immediately. I have to walk that fine line between giving them the service they pay for, and letting them know that we are willing to fix their mistakes, but mistakes will cost them time and money.

But, sometimes, I'm pressed for time because I have to be somewhere and it seems everything has conspired against me, every light is red, every seasoned citizen is out taking their dog for a drive in their lap at 18MPH, and someone decided to work on the traffic lights during morning rush hour.

Then I realize that they really are not conspiring against me. They may not be working with me, but it's not a conspiracy.

Everyday tries patience. I really think I've gotten better with this one. It works with YD as well. XW has her conditioned to want some toy anytime she goes into a store or shop. I simply set my boundary, that we are not buying toys at the grocery store, and if she keeps asking, we'll just leave and not do some activity we planned. I try to set the condition that after the third time she asks for something, if I've already said no or wait until... she loses something instead of getting what she asked for.

It really bugs me that she "wants" all of this stuff that she plays with once and never sees it again. XW's parents 2 car garage is now full of a bunch of this kind of stuff. Much of it sat in our basement for years, never touched until I moved it all out.

Of course, I'm still paying the credit card bills from XW wanting and buying all of this stuff.

My patience was worn thin by this.

I do praise God that I was able to pay off over $40K worth of the debt in the past 18+ months. Well, I do have to give XW credit, she paid off just under $5K worth of debt when she traded our minivan for a new VW Beetle.

The total remaining is under $30K now, and like I've said before, I believe there is over $50K in home equity, of which XW only gets $7K.

I noticed yesterday that she had a MOAA credit/debit card, so she has an account with OM/MOM (I don't know if he's married or not anymore. MOAA is a military officer's association and he is a retired Navy Officer.) So she is into his pockets now, from what I can tell. She used the card to buy YD and the other kids in our group a toy at the zoo yesterday.

Why is it I wanted her back? I guess I had hope that she and I could do the right thing.

My patience for this has worn thin because I've believed I've been doing the right thing for a long time without seeing any return on that investment. I know, I'm supposed to obey God because I love God.

Well, sometimes it's hard for me to love God when I feel this pain and feel so distant from Him. So I'm wrong for asking for help, wrong for asking for God to be more concrete to me.

The girls need to get into the garage, so I'll write more later.

T

You are consistent if you are anything, I have to give you that.

Please accept my apology. Let me be a bit sarcastic here for a moment in order to hopefully make a point about the "attitude" and not about the "man himself." I just didn’t see or understand that you HAVE done it all and there’s nothing more for you to do. For the benefit of all of us so we don’t all have to go “digging” thorough your thousands of past posts, why not re-list all that you admitted that you were doing wrong, what your plan to “fix” those wrongs was, and how you have progressed or been successful in fixing those “wrong things.”

That would help everyone in better understanding you and what you’ve already changed and let everyone know that there is nothing else that might need changing.



“You shall not commit adultery” (Deut.5:18)

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife(husband). You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his(her) manservant or maidservant, his(her) ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Deut.5:21)

"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." (1Cor.7:10-11)

[color:"red"] “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife(husband), except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman(man) commits adultery.” [/color] (Matt.19:9)

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Cor.6:9-11)

(emphasis has been added to clarify the points to these Scripture passage and the clarity of God’s speech on these matters)



I have included many Scripture passages in many of the posts I made to you and sent to via URL links. You have NEVER responded to any of them. You have chosen to pick in the “feelings,” or lack thereof, to whine about how you’ve “done this or that” and therefore God is SUPPOSED to answer your “beck and call” and do things “your way.”

QUOTING Scripture is not important. DOING what God has commanded is important. UNDERSTANDING what God has been saying through Scripture IS important. Satan quotes Scripture all day long, but he doesn’t “embrace” the revealed word of God and will NOT surrender all that he is to God. That’s what sin is….rebellion against God. “Me first, instead of God first.”

Tony, these types of passages from God’s Word is HOW you know that God spoke clearly and unmistakably to your wife before, during and continuing to this day in her adulterous relationship (as is also true for the OM).


Tony, you can’t really be that “dense” and “self-centered,” can you? ONE man intervened…..my wife’s father. HE found a counselor for us through a contact he had in another State. That “man of God” just happened to live in a close by town, close enough that we could get there. It turned out that this man who became our marriage counselor AFTER my wife decided to “try” to save our marriage was a man that God had made “available” to us at that specific time in our lives. Another time during the year or a more full counseling schedule, and he would NOT have been available to us (and for free, which was also important since we couldn’t afford fee based counseling). Our sons, reacted as they did in large part because of how I told them about “Mom” and because they both had a firm walk with Christ. Our pastor at the time, was able to hear me and pray with me, but he was not a trained counselor and did nothing in the way of direct intervention with my wife. So please don’t give me that garbage that I was “so fortunate to have so many people” to speak to my wife. My wife was a Christian who was “lost in the snares of sin” but who, like David, when confronted by ONE person speaking the truth of God, was convicted of her sin against God DESPITE how her “feelings” were pulling her deeper and deeper into sin. The climb out has NOT been easy, but it has progressed. We will, God willing, reach “recovered” some day.



We are back to you “having done it all” so there’s nothing left to do. Is that what you are really saying?

God HAS posted here and HAS posted the answer to “Why?” many times. You don’t want that and you don’t accept that. All you seem that you will accept is a personal audience with God where he speaks directly to you in audible tones or “dreams.” You will accept NOTHING less that to be one of the “men of God” of old whom GOD chose to speak directly to. They did not choose to speak “face to face” with God, God did the choosing. The rest of us “mere mortals” had to be content with them “passing on” what God had said and ACCEPTING what they said as actually FROM God and actually WHAT God had indeed said. The only exception to this was Jesus Christ himself. HE spoke directly to multitudes, often seeking them out rather than the people seeking to talk directly to Him. Jesus spoke daily, or so we assume, to His disciples. Jesus spoke directly ONCE to Saul/Paul. Since He ascended, He has given us the indwelling Holy Spirit to speak to us and to convict us and to teach us. Tony, God speaks in God’s timetable. Thus, He spoke to Noah once and some hundred years later spoke a SECOND time. In the intervening years God HAD spoken and it was up to Noah to follow in humble obedience, waiting on the Lord.

God HAS spoken, but you are not listening. Plain and simple. Do it “Tony’s way” or it’s insufficient. “Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed….”

Tony there is NO SPECULATION. The “second coming” will be “too late.” God has spoken before the second coming so that we WILL know His will.



“Of course I don't feel satisfied. Did you read or even acknowledge the difference between Jesus and me, why I believe it's easier for Jesus to take what is happening (easier than it is for me to say in similar humbleness; “Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done”), because he knew the plan.”

I’m sorry Tony, but you still don’t “get it.” Perhaps "arrogant" is too strong a word, but you still seem to discount the magnitude and depth of Christ's struggle as a human. Yes Jesus Christ was “fully God” and quite capable of controlling anything the universe. BUT, Jesus Christ was also FULLY MAN. That means that he was 100% human in every way. WHY do you think that Jesus pleaded with God 3 times to “let this cup pass” from him? It’s because as a MAN it was more crushing than anything imaginable. Jesus had to take on all the sins of all men and had to pay the full penalty for sin against God, including separation from the Father, in order to PAY the price of sin that was necessary so that you and I COULD have forgiveness for our sins. Jesus, the “man,” did NOT want to go through with the betrayal, scourging, crucifixion, and death that was God the Father’s will and the only way that Jesus could “rescue” His bride (who didn’t want Him and wanted her adulterous life).

Christ humbled himself, even unto excruciating death, because He loved the Father first, and his adulterous bride second.



No Tony, you are angry with me because YOU interpret what I say through your filter of anger and feelings that “you did it all right therefore you should have gotten everything you asked for.” You don’t listen, you argue. You don’t discuss, you accuse. You don’t seem to understand that “if I’ve been doing the same things over and over and nothing has changed, then perhaps the adage; “The definition of insanity IS doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result.” ”

Tony, you are NOT so much angry with me as you are angry with God for apparently not giving you what you think you wanted and deserved.



As if you don’t, or aren’t, making your own DJ’s and assigning motives to me that are incorrect?

Tony, you can continue to accuse me of anything you want to if it “makes you feel better.” You have been traveling the “feelings” road for quite some time now, so it doesn’t surprise me in the least. The same goes for your “blowing off Telly’s comments.” Telly wants us to all wallow around with you in a communal “pity party” of understanding the hurt emotions. We DO understand the hurt and we DO commiserate with you in them. But, having done that, it solves nothing to stay in the “I’m hurt” pit indefinitely. Somewhere along the line, one has to climb out of the pit even if it initially feels more painful to use bruised and aching limbs, and begin the healing process.

Nowhere did I say you did NOT love your wife.

How “arrogant” is it to say, “humbly submit to, and obey, God’s commands?”

How “arrogant” is it to say, “I’ve done it all ‘by the book’ and therefore God sins by NOT giving me exactly what I ask for and think that I want?”

Dr. Phil, by the way, is NOT my authority figure, the Scripture is.

To use your statement about Dr. Phil to it’s logical absurdity let me ask you; “IF being obedient to God isn’t “working for you” and you find yourself asking “how’s this working for you?”, then God didn’t really mean what he said and why are you still trying to listen to Him or seek His will? Why not “follow your own feelings” because they are “truth” and God is a liar?

Tony, if you want us to “come alongside of you” to support you in your pain, we will all do that. If you want us to give you hugs so you’ll feel a little better emotionally, we will all do that. If you want us to hold your hand and agree that the pain is enormous and that you are right to feel hurt because of the sin and the outcome of your marriage, we will all do that.

But that is NOT what you asked. You asked; “If God is so clear to you, Why can’t I find him? Yet you continue to “do the same things over and over and expect a different result.” You continue to NOT consider that perhaps not “all has been done.” You continue to find it easier to argue and fight with others who are trying to address the LOGICAL and REASONING side of your struggle, not your emotional side.

You need to begin to get the “focus” of your life off of Tony and onto others around you. I know, you’ll say that you DO that already, but I’ll submit that you “miss” things because of your preoccupation with how the situation is affecting you.

Want an example?

Your daughter tells you that she doesn’t want to go to the church you’ve been attending. You get all wrapped up in what she might be missing by not attending, etc. Instead, you had a “golden opportunity” to discuss with her WHY she perceives attending THAT church negatively in her mind. You perhaps miss an opportunity to witness to your daughter about God, to help HER with her struggles over “mom and dad” splitting up. No, the response is what you think would be best for her where “someone else could witness for God and help her”, and then simply surrendering and not talking to her about what SHE is thinking. It may be very good for her to attend, but just like yourself, there may be things that she thinks or perceives that impedes the doing of something that would allow God to help.

God has a “volume control” in His hand and He uses it from time to time on all of us. Sometimes the “din” around us is so loud in our ears that we wander around making mistakes until the volume gets loud enough that we follow it instead of the other “words’’ that we hear. Sometimes we refuse to “hear” God and we “force” Him to really crank up the volume until He DOES get our attention and we can no longer ignore Him. But He only does that for His own. The rest will never hear Him no matter how loud He tries to make the volume as they continue to wear their earplugs.

Know this if nothing else, Tony. I truly want you to receive the answers to your questions and to hear God.

God bless.

P.S. Yes, Tony, you DO know how to love. Remember always that love is an "action", a verb. The "feelings" that we humans tend to associate with the term "love" come AFTER we DO love, not before.

First, I stopped being the spirtual leader in my home. I let work and just living life get in the way of worship. I stopped praying, I stopped attending worship, I thought I could do things on my own.

I immediately got on my knees and asked God to forgive me for this. In September 2003, my wife said that she wasn't happy and wanted to move out. At this time, I knew nothing about the affair, so I owned everything and asked XW to consider counselling and that she give me some feedback on what I could do better.

I worked with SH on eliminating my LB's and trying to figure out what her EN's were.

I knew I had a problem with pornography, and I stopped right then. I did the 60 day online course that was formerly called Pure Freedom at SettingCaptivesFree.com and enlisted my best friend, the minister who performed the ceremony between my XW and me as my accountability partner. This is no longer an issue. I didn't even admit this to XW until January 2004. I believe she used that to justify what she was doing.

XW accused me of being a control freak, controlling person, so I dove into everything I could read on that. While I don't believe I was along the lines of many of the people mentioned in Patricia Evans' writings, I recognized that I needed to let folks do things their way, not everyone was interested in my opinion, I did more listening than talking, and really considered that I didn't have all the questions, let alone the answers.

I had anger issues, so I went into IC for this, and learned many techniques to control that anger.

I knew more about my car than about XW, so I sold the car, and try to just look at cars as tools, and not obsess about them.

I had let my weight get up, so I took advantage of the natural weight loss associated with infidelity and now eat better and work out 2-3 times/week.

These are not secrets and I shared openly with her family about this as well as my family.

I admitted to everyone that while I did love XW, I tried to love her in my way, and that I wanted a chance, that she and the girls deserved to be loved with the type of love that God wants a husband and father to offer.

I tried to do that, I asked God to make that path clear to me, to take away my hurt and pain and anger so that I could clearly see the way to do that. I knew I couldn't do these things in my own strength, I admitted that weakness and wanted God's strength and love to be manifest in my life.

That was not something in my power, but that I needed the Holy Spirit to show me the way.

See above

I have no way of knowing that she or the OM have read these scriptures. You and I know that she is not interested in what I have to say. So how do I know that God has brought someone to her to show her these things?

I don't deny that scripture says these things. I just don't know that anyone has explained it to her or him.

Well, I misunderstood, I had the impression that several folks addressed your wife and you and were able to show you God's path towards reconciliation.

Well, do you have anything else for me to do?



Well, let's just say I expect that my marriage would be healed or that I just wouldn't care anymore. I really thought that God told me my marriage would be saved. I don't recall what you said about this. So what was it I heard if it wasn't God.

How do I distinguish? Such specifics are not addressed in scripture.


I don't think I crafted a DJ. I didn't judge your motives, I said, when you write _______, I feel __________. I didn't say you purposly try to do this. I'm very sensitive to questioning motives because I experienced XW questioning my motives. Things like her saying I'm trying to hurt her when I wanted YD to decide where she wanted her toys to go instead of just going along with XW saying she wanted all the toys she ever bought back to the apartment. So let's just say I'm very sensitive to ascribing motives to others. I will tell you how I feel about what you are doing, but I don't claim to know your motives.

You alluded to it, you said "Tony, by your style of reasoning, all this should be easy for you because you knew the plan for a Christian marriage, the roles God has assigned to husband's and wives, that God has COMMANDED husbands to love their wives but has not commanded wives to love their husbands. Husbands earn their wive's love by being God's servants. But then, you knew the plan, right?"

What I read into this was, if you loved your wife, she would have loved you. So you must not have loved your wife.

Well, that is the question. If being obediant to God isn't working, then it would be insane to continue, wouldn't it.

It's pretty simple. Let's assume that you are right, that God has spoken to both of us and either we haven't understood or we willfully choose to ignore God. What did I miss? What does God want me to do now?

If God wants me to let go of my wife, then I ask him to take away the love and desire I have for her.

If God wants me to pursue my wife, then I'd like some hints on how to be effective.

If God wants me to wait, then I ask for peace while waiting.
My YD didn't say any of this, she loves going to church and Sunday School. The conversation you mention was between XW and me about YD. It was XW who said she doesn't want to ever go into that church again.

I know it's an honest mistake, but FH, this is the type of mistake that makes it hard for me to believe that you are reading carefully and understanding what it is I have to say.

And again, if it was unclear, I didn't see a question where you asked me to clarify, did I mean YD doesn't like the church or XW doesn't like the church.

I've re-read what I've written, and I don't see how you got YD doesn't like the church from a conversation between me and XW.

I do understand that, that love is an action and not a feeling. Yet we can love someone and they don't feel it. It's maddening at times.

T

Tony,

I commend you on the things you have accomplished on the virtue of patience. I can get quite impatient on those drivers too! Let me add though:

How about patience on "waiting on the Lord"? You know as well as I do that the Lord works on His OWN timetable, not ours. The prayer that you keep going back to is saving the M. What you EXPECTED was Him to save it BEFORE the D. What if God's timetable is AFTER? This is what I've been trying to stress to you. God's ways are not our ways. You seem to be stuck in the fact that God was going to save this M before any D happened. This is what you prayed for, granted, but maybe God has a different plan. Maybe He knows EXACTLY, excuse me, He DOES know exactly, what your W NEEDS & what YOU NEED. Maybe God NEEDS your W to be on her own right now. Maybe He NEEDS YOU to be on YOUR own right now. Your W might just NEED to suffer her consequences w/o you around. Maybe He's trying to PROTECT you from any more hurt that will be caused by the consequences of your W's actions. Maybe your W NEEDS to have those consequences happen to her w/o you around so that way YOU can be protected from the fallout. Because when your W CRASHES (& she will!), maybe you needed to be out of the way so she can be completely broken. Now that may sound harsh, but maybe that is exactly what your W needs in order for God to reach her effectively & bring her home a REPENTANT W.

So, it just might be possible that God is teaching YOU patience by learning how to "wait on the Lord", wait on HIS timetable. Not that that's the only thing you have to do, but this could be one of them. Maybe He's trying to teach you how to be patient w/Him. And, even by your own admission, you are getting IMpatient. So it's very possible that you have a lot more growing to do w/this aspect of love.

I hope I made some kind of sense. Sometimes I tend to rattle on & my message gets completely lost.

So let's see, to an outsider watching this, we have over in one corner CEH, in the other, FEH in the other. SC as referee, ST in the roles of coach and peacemaker,
and Telly as the cut (wo)man over in CEH's corner.

I say, "call the fight a draw".

AFter re-reading pretty much this whole thread from the top, I'm not even sure the discussion is even remotely well defined, nor is there even a lot of commonality in terms of frames of reference for the conversation.

For CEH, it seems it's all about the "feeling". For FHE and SC and ST it's
pedantism (is that even a word). I'm not even sure you guys agree on definitions for the terms being bandied about, and no amount of repetition will change it.

However, it is an interesting read.