Sue,<BR>This is okay, I don't mind people emailing me with the scenarios if they want. My email is: [singer412@hotmail.com] Don't ask how I came up with that one, because I am not a singer. However, I am rereading the chapter now, got through about half of it last night. Will respond here soon. I'll have to do some thinking since my h doesn't presently live with me, but I do see him fairly regularly.<BR>

Wow SueB! The dinner scenario you described could be my home, especially before POPW. As the "dutiful" wife I would rush home from work, fix dinner then wait and wait for him to come home, many times getting upset at his lack of a caring attitude. Most times he did not hear angry words or such from me when he got home, as I had been making an effort to be loving and happy to see him when he got home. But at times I did lose it. I see from this example it was not a good idea for me to keep his dinner warm and put it on the table for him warmed when he did finally come home. <P>Recently (well before he went back to CA) we had been doing what TNT has been doing - he would call me when leaving the jobsite so I would have dinner ready. My issue with that was many times he would sit there with the guys drinking beer causing him to get home quite late. <P>So it sounds like I need to do a lot more changing. I'm praying the Lord will help me make the right changes and set the right boundaries.<P>Also, thanks again to all for praying. Last night when I talked to David we had the best conversation we have had in a very long time. The Lord is working on his heart, things that he said were confirmations of what I had felt and discussed with God about what <B>I need to change</B> in my reactions to him and inability to trust him. PRaise GOD!!

Okay, in light of the responses about the scenario and seeing how it is getting our enthusiasm juices going....<P>Either here or in the privacy of a journal at home (you do know that many of the word processing programs have password capabiility, don't you?)describe an ongoing problem in your relationship in terms that show it to be your problem, not your spouses. (Remember, in the example, instead of seeing the problem as with her husband's lateness, the wife switched it to her unhappiness about the lateness.)<P>As in the example in the scenario, what might it suggest about an attitude of yours that you could change?<P>As in the example, suggest an action that could take to stop enabling your spouse?<P><B>When you cease to blame your spouse and own the problem as yours, you are then empowered to make changes to solve your problem!</B>

Ok, here it goes...... <P>"<B>describe an ongoing problem in your relationship in terms that show it to be your problem, not your spouse's</B>" Worry, lack of trust, feelings of rejection are problems that I need to work on. He has told me several times that I am just going to have to take his word that he will be faithful. Why can't I do that? When H stays late drinking with his buddies, I feel hurt and unwanted, and worry that he has found someone else.<P><B>suggest about an attitude of yours that you could change</B> I want to change my attitude about feeling rejected, that I must be undesirable causing my H to stay out drinking. I want more than anything to be able to trust David without a shadow of a doubt, but I just can't; he hasn't earned it.<P><B>suggest an action that you could take to stop enabling your spouse</B>SueB, I need help here. I don't know how to stop enabling him. <P><BR>

AW,<BR>If I can jump in here. In your second response it seems like you are talking about a couple of different issues.<BR>First you can work on feeling good about yourself. Realize that David's staying out and drinking has nothing to do with you though feelings of rejection are understandable. David's drinking is his problem and his way of handling his emotions, stress, and just dealing with himself. Therefore you need to to work on feeling good about yourself, finding your self worth in Christ. Until David is ready to address his issues his drinking will probably not stop.<BR>Secondly, it is understandable that you don't trust him. However, you can trust God. You can trust God that He is working on David and you can ask Him to help you to trust Him and let Him take care of David.<BR>So your action in this caase would be to do those things that build your self confidence and make you feel good about who you are.<BR>Sue can probably help out on the question of enabling better than I.<BR>Hope this makes sense.

Excerpt from an email from a sister:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am stuck most of the time in the "inability to trust" mode.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><B>Scenario from the above then:</B><BR>He acts aloof and not wanting to come right home after work.<P><B>My response:</B><BR>"I start going in a downward spiral emotionally". <P>(What specific feelings are you feeling? Go one step further and identify the feelings. If it is fear, what is the fear? Abandonment? If so, when else did you feel abandoned? Rejection? Same thing. Is it a carryover from childhood? What specific behaviors do you display when you "spiral downwards"? <P>Some clues that you said were:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The ways I respond negatively are to be angry back at him (PMS time), or I don't talk at all. He told me last night that it bothers him when I look at him with "that look" - he says its the "p***** *ff" look. I don't mean to look at him that way, I guess the anger<BR>I hold back shows on my face.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><B>Input</B><BR>I want to leave room for others of you to input as well, but for now, let's look at the Word in light of the clues we have above.<P>PR 6:16 There are six things the LORD hates,<BR> seven that are detestable to him:<P> PR 6:17 <B>haughty eyes</B>,<BR> a lying tongue,<BR> hands that shed innocent blood,....<P>PS 101:5 Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret,<BR> him will I put to silence;<BR> whoever has <B>haughty eyes</B> and a proud heart,<BR> him will I not endure.<P>PR 21:4 <B>Haughty eyes</B> and a proud heart,<BR> the lamp of the wicked, are sin!<P> PS 32:3 When I kept <B>silent</B>,<BR> my bones wasted away<BR> through my groaning all day long.<P> PS 32:4 For day and night<BR> your hand was heavy upon me;<BR> my strength was sapped<BR> as in the heat of summer.<BR> <BR> PS 32:5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you<BR> and did not cover up my iniquity.<BR> I said, "I will confess<BR> my transgressions to the LORD"--<BR> and you forgave<BR> the guilt of my sin.<P>PS 39:2 But when I was <B>silent</B> and still,<BR> not even saying anything good,<BR> my anguish increased.<P>PS 4:4 In your <B>anger</B> do not sin;<BR> when you are on your beds,<BR> search your hearts and be silent.<P>PS 37:8 Refrain from <B>anger</B> and turn from wrath;<BR> do not fret--it leads only to evil.<P>PR 27:4 <B>Anger</B> is cruel and fury overwhelming,<BR> but who can stand before jealousy?<P>PR 29:11 A fool gives full vent to his <B>anger</B>,<BR> but a wise man keeps himself under control.<P>PR 30:33 For as churning the milk produces butter,<BR> and as twisting the nose produces blood,<BR> so stirring up <B>anger</B> produces strife."<P>PR 12:20 There is deceit in the hearts of those who plot evil,<BR> but <B>joy</B> for those who promote peace.<P>PR 14:10 Each heart knows its own bitterness,<BR> and no one else can share its <B>joy</B>.<P>R 14:13 Even in laughter the heart may ache,<BR> and joy may end in grief.<BR>"Life is filled with bittersweet things--no joy is completely free of grief." Commentary<P>PR 15:30 A cheerful look brings joy to the heart,<P>The Word is pretty clear at convicting isn't it? Funny how I can say to myself, yeah hubby ought to read this one and seldom see myself in there...guess that changes for me tonight.<BR>Again we are not saying the hubby in this scenario isn't wrong in his actions. We are just saying we can't change him but this woman can look at her own behaviors which is something she can do something about. <P><B>AND BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS!!!!</B> We are looking at our own sin and doing something about it, we are not feeding a poor self-esteem. We are empowering ourselves with God's help and building our self-esteem showing that we are not poor pitiful pieces of garbage! We are worthy of better treatment and we are removing the logs out of our own eyes to allow more room for love to fill the empty spots in our lives. <P>What other input do you guys have? What kinds of specific actions might this sister do to change her behavior? <P><B>Action</B><P>This is the write it down and do it part. What specifically can you do to change your behavior which feed into the downward spiral. What truths come to you about who you are in Christ that you can repeat continuously until you believe it? I wll put some input in here after I come back from a family reunion tonight to allow the rest of you some time to think and respond.<P>Father, use this time for your glory, teach us, mold us into your likeness. Help us to internalize your attitude and give us yourwisdom that we can separate truth from lies. IJN, Amen.

Rootbeer, as I have to go to a family reunion, I cannot respond fully to your post right now, but look at your original problem that you wrote about. Break it down into bite-sized chunks. When you are thinking about non-enabling behavior, think about how you are now responding to your hubby when he comes home late...do you have dinner ready, have you been sitting there feeling sorry for yourself and crying, have you genuinely been concerned about his safety or more absorbed in feelings of rejection, etc...the statement you made about what's wrong with me.....etc...is a real clue I think...<P>Thoughts then perhaps need to focus on what being God's daughter looks like, how does she care for herself, nurture herself, revel in the knowledge of the gift(s) she has been given. Is she using the gifts she has been given for the good of the body or is she hiding them until a convenient time when perhaps her hubby isn't home...( I seem to remember a comment that it was good that he went to a counseling session because it allowed you to go to church on Wed. night. My understanding is that God creates us into two separate beings, individuals that come together to complement each other, each with strengths and weaknesses that complement each other. Part of who you are has to do with your relationship with God. Individuals who respect one another will have things to do apart from each other, so that when together, they can share the experience...I guess I am saying one of your possible actions might be to give your husband information that you realize that you are expecting him to fill all your needs and that isn't fair to him and so one thing you plan to do is go to church each Wednesday. You will have a meal in the microwave for him to heat up, (or if you feel guilty about doing that, use the crock pot that night, so it will remain hot) The bottom line is that whether you stay home from church or not does not guarantee that he will come home on time from work.<P>As far as enabling goes, set a limit...honey if you are not home by (a time), then I will put your dinner in the microwave, fridge, whatever. I probably will be in bed if you are too late because I have noticed, I haven't been getting enough rest and that I become more emotional and grumpy when I am tired and I know that when I am emotinal like that, it upsets you. I will be sad that I didn't get to see you and I will miss your hugs and kisses, but I also know that staying up late and worrying and getting more angry isn't helping our situation either. (Is your stomach in a knot yet?)<P>Now, the going to bed is a hard one for you since you have a tendency to worry. This is where scripture memorization comes in. I used psalm 4:8 a lot until I had it memorized and then I started on another one. Do you believe God will do what he says he will do....? Every time a negative thought comes in rebuke it and repeat the scripture. I find myself singing that verse "I will trust in you, I will trust in you" over and over until I fall asleep. You didn't learn to walk in a day and you won't learn this one in a day either, but you will find, since he is trustworthy, you will rest easier and easier. <P>When My Tom left for his AA meeting on the night he died, I did what I could do, feeling helpless. I cleaned the house from top to bottom, praying for Tom the whole time. I went to bed resting in the knowledge that God was in control and that he promised to take care of me. When I got up in the morning and Tom still wasn't home, again I prayed. When the policeman came to the house, I figured Tom got locked up in jail again, but then, when the officer asked my relationship to Tom, I knew...<P>Now I hope this never happens to any of you, but I can say with my whole heart that God was there the whole time. Even that point of numbness when you don't want to feel, I felt like I was just on the outside watching how God had arranged everything. It was awesome! From the clean house ready for the funeral dirge of people who show up and bring food to the financial part of everything, it was amazing! <P>You gotta understand the disease Rootbeer and quit personalizing it. Think of it in terms of Romans 7. He knows what is right and does what he doesn't want to do....just as you and I do in our walk....and yet, God shows us an unbelieveable mercy. Showing your husband mercy does not mean enabling him to continue it but being compassionate while he deals with his problem. And taking care of yourself in the process.<P>Will write more later.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>how you are now responding to your hubby when he comes home late...do you have dinner ready, have you been sitting there feeling sorry for yourself and crying, have you genuinely been concerned about his safety or more absorbed in feelings of rejection<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All of the above and more! Probably the emotion I feel the most when he doesn't call and doesn't come home until real late is rejection, like I am a low priority to him. Yes, I am concerned for his safety, since he is usually driving quite a ways home after drinking. I guess I feel that I would love to have him come home and be with me, and look forward to being together. <P>The reason I was happy his counseling sessions were on Wed. so I could go to church, is when I would go and he was at home, he would be angry since I was not home. I wanted him to be happy and feel content, not angry with me. And you are right, whether I stay home or go doesn't make a difference on what time he decides to come home.<P>I like your suggestion to put his dinner away and let him reheat it. One of the things he told me the other night when he called (he is still in CA) was that he never realized how much work it was to work all day, come home and cook dinner then clean up the kitchen. AND he said he owed me an apology for doing all that for him and not thanking me.<P>Going to bed alone is HARD. I am fine during the day but when I face that empty bed I can't sleep. Many thoughts go through my head, especially if he has not called that night. I will try repeating scripture. Praising God helps me calm down also. <P>I have a hard time not personalizing his alcoholism, since he tells me all the time that if it wasn't for my b***** he wouldn't drink so much (I have already learned how to ignore this one - I know I don't b at him), he has blamed me for his drinking problem for so long he really believes it is my fault. Sometimes it is very hard not to take it personally. <P>I have been reading the book you recommended "Getting Them Sober". I'm about 1/3 through and can see where David is a classic alcoholic. I am bound and determined to change my behavior and reactions. I am praying that the Lord will keep me on His path and keep me from feeling rejected.

The getting them sober book was a good one for me to begin the learning process. Hard to believe I read it over 16 years ago. Time flies.<P>The main thing is that you know most of all where the sticky points are in your marriage and you can make some choices now while he is gone what you want to do about it. New habits take a bit to form, so don't kick yourself if you botch one or even have to revise it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have a hard time not personalizing his alcoholism, since he tells me all the time that if it wasn't for my b***** he wouldn't drink so much (I have already learned how to ignore this one - I know I don't b at him), he has blamed me for his drinking problem for so long he really believes it is my fault. Sometimes it is very hard not to take it personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And yes, it is hard to not take it personally. But perhaps if you could look at it from another angle, it would help.<P>For example: The Wednesday night church thing. He tries to control your comings and goings via anger. You try to control his anger by not going. You know that if you have this time out in fellowship, prayer and worship that you are less grumpy, less anxious, more fulfilled and peaceful and receive encouragement and strength to continue the spiritual battle. <P>Remember, you are now owning your problem and this solution is to benefit both you and your husband. One of your possible actions to resolve your problem is to give your husband information that you realize that you are<BR>expecting him to fill all your needs and that isn't fair to him ergo the plan to go to church each Wednesday. <P>To explain to him that just as it probably is hard for him to "quit drinking", it is equally hard for you to quit "worrying, feeling anxious," etc. which increases demands on him. Your goal is to honor him by not having that expectation on him. And just as sometimes he forgets to call you to say he will be late, you find that your anxiety increases and you find yourself being led by your emotions, which hurts both of you. You are purposing to address your problem which will benefit the two of you in the long run.<BR>Don't know if that makes more sense.<P>The battle is for the mind- so how can you change your thinking process in regards to the bedroom? For me, I welcome going to bed even if hubby is not there, because I know it is our bed, our space that no one else shares, I can imagine my husband's snoring, the warmth of his body, his arms around me, etc. even when he is not in the bed. It is my sanctuary to pray in peace, to be able to praise for the way He cares for me, look s after every detail of my life, etc. In this safety place, I can share all anxieties so that my mind is only on the goodness of the One who promises me peace that surpasses all understanding. Being confident that God can handle everything without me and that He has a plan for everything that is happening and that He turns everything to the good because I love Him, I can pray for my husband's safety in confidence. I can thank him for all the good things about my husband, the strengths I see and ask God to increase those strengths, etc. as described in the POPW book's prayers. I feel the spirit's presence and can imagine the Lord's angels watching over me and guarding the house. <P>Every negative thought I rebuke and replace it with the truth which the Spirit provides as He brings to mind God's truth through the Word. It is one place where I can practice listening to hear His voice. It is this place that I can go to in my mind during the hardships and trials during the day to be reminded and to reexperience the peace and joy and be refilled and strengthened. <P>It is out of these experiences that when a zinger comes, I can now catch myself smiling and saying to Him, " still have something to learn in this area, eh?" As I have said before, anger serves two purposes, one to control or two, to cover a hurt and so when my hubby is spouting off, I find myself able to separate some and ask myself is he covering a hurt or is he trying to control? If he is trying to control, what is my problem with that (and then go through some of the things we are now learning about boundaries, responses, etc). If he is covering a hurt, I am finding myself feeling so much more compassionate about his pain. Understand that doesn't mean I change my belief system if I believe what he is demanding and angry about is against the Lord, but I truly feel sorry that he is experiencing so much pain and I find I can pray for the Spirit to intervene and to ask that the truth flood around him, etc. I know that God can fix the hurts but one has to be ready for the hurts to go away before that can happen.<P>It is why I am excited for you as we learn this stuff together. You are ready to give up the hurts in a different way than before. Each time we go through the POPW book and the chapters, I see that God reveals something new to me that I didn't see before. It is kind of like in the work chapter and how we are praying for God to bless the work of our husband's hand. <P>You know that what David does, he is very good at, just as I know that my hubby's brain in the technical field runs circles around others which is why they make a lot of demands on him. In praying for our husbands to recognize their worth and to be filled with confidence and to increase their ability to stand firm for those things that honor the Father, integrity and the like, we pray for boldness for them to be able to assert themselves in such a way that they are respected when they say no to something. <P>I do remember times when Tom tried to say no to the drinking buddies and they razzed him so badly that he gave in instead of coming home. So now the guy feels bad 'cause he compromised what he preferred to do, come home and then he came home to me being angry, crying, complaining, etc....and figures he probably should have stayed out longer...my behavior chased him right back out that door! That might give you insight when he blames you for his drinking, etc....<P>When Tom and I remarried, I had learned a lot about this and was much more peaceful in the Lord and worked hard for him not to be able to place the blame on me. God gave me a real strength to be loving to him and to respond verbally to him in such a way that put the responsibility for his choices back on his shoulders. I will never forget just before he was killed that he was ranting and raving one night about what I did with his money, for he was faithful to bring home that paycheck every Friday. I accounted for every penny to him in a loving way, the credit card where he charged his gas for the car and the booze, the lawyer for his dwi tickets, the court fines and the outpatient treatment center...that was it, not a penny otherwise went elsewhere. What a revelation that was to him.!<P>And I get excited too because in recounting these things to you, God has just made me aware that though my hubby now is not a drinker, his obesity and addictions to sex/food are not that much different that the addictin to alcohol. Just gave me this verse!<P>PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. [13] Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, [14] I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.<P>PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. [16] Only let us live up to what we have already attained.<P>What a trip! Father God, You are so incredible, so faithful to Your children, magnificient in every way! Thank you that you care about our growth, our character defects and desire so much more for us than we desire for ourselves. Thank you for Your Word and the Holy Spirit who reveals Your truth to us in the appropriate times. Continue to make us moldable, pliable for the changes You would have us make, willing to be bent toward the things of You. Continue to teach us Father, that You would be glorified in our lives. IJN, Amen.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited July 23, 2000).]

Another quip from an email:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But - boundaries in some areas are not so easy... Like, if my feelings need to be shared -he just cannot handle it. I am starting to learn that he only wants facts and good behavior from me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, let us assess this one. "He just can't handle it" means what? He attempts to control your behavior (communicating I feel) by his behavior (angry outburst) Does that fit? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"he only wants facts..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is great! And this is where identifying the boundaries helps him too.<P>You say "I feel" and he blows up? Why might that be? Does he think he is responsible for your feelings? If so, where did he get that message? Do you have expectations of him in this area to make it his responsibility? Has his family made it his responsibility to take care of their feelings?<P>I said great because when you share a feeling with him, you are sharing a fact. There is not any rhyme or reason per se, just reality that X (a feeling) is how you feel. Just information giving, no expectations per se. And if you have an expectation you need to voice it. <P>Since your feelings are your problem and your responsibility, the sharing of the feeling is to provide information for understanding. A "this is where I am at, right or wrong, sensible or not". If the expectation is a desire for affirmation, then you need to state so- "I need to hear that you love me once again", I need a hug so I feel safe". Since women are in the touchy feely state more often than men and more verbal re assessing stuff ( example two women discussing a feeling would probably say oh really why do you feel that, where does that come from, what can you do differently, tell me more, etc) and a man will likely say-"yeah?" and go on with what he is doing.... (unless he senses an underlying responsibility for your feelings)<P>How much more effective we might be if we can own our feelings. For example, we are experiencing some anxiety over something. Many of you have had to deal with affairs and so this nagging fear that it might happen again sits back there waiting for a weak moment to occur. ( Fear doesn't come from God) So the love of your life is getting ready to go out and you feel the gripper coming on again...You tell him "stop, wait a minute!" and you grab him and kiss him and hug him like there was no tomorrow. You tell him "thanks, I was feeling anxious and needed that! Have a good time honey, love you, hurry back..." You have now addressed your anxiety, took action and left an impression with your hubby that he just might remember in a better light than the previous whiny behavior, negative look or what have you...In fact, he might look at you sort of wierd, wondering what that was all about, and you give him a wink and go about your business. You can thank God that you responded appropriately, that you owned your feeling and did something about it and that you let your hubby know that you value him... to continue to share the feelings of mistrust in ways that appear to them that they are responsible for your feelings inhibits the rebuilding of the marriage as far as I can tell from what I am reading and probably does give the impression that you did not forgive them and that they will be punished for the rest of their life about it. That would be a love buster! Forgiveness is your issue.<P>We can give them the information that we are working on a problem (our feeling) and just wanted to give them the information so that if we appear grumpy, please forgive us or make us aware that we are being grumpy because we don't want it to pour over on them since our feelings are our responsibility.<P>If you need to assess why you feel the way you feel, I really would suggest you take it one one female prayer partner who will help you to sort it out and help you to be accountable for your feelings and perhaps help you to figure out what action you need to take to deal with the feeling.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...and good behavior from me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Clarify what this means, please, especially in light of what was previously discussed in terms of taking responsibility of our own feelings.<P>Good behavior meaning don't rock the boat? Again, just take this piece and run it through the format we are working under in regards to situation, my response or specific behavior, what truths address this and what action will I take in light of it. We do need to speak the truth in love and out of caring for one another. We need to assess whether we really are doing that.<P><BR>Again, this has given me lots to think about in my own relationship. Thanks for writing!<P>Father, I feel like a lightbulb has gone on in my brain, such a awareness of how I have been putting my responsibilities off and avoided taking care of those things that are mine, of how I have expected my husband to "know" what he should be doing or responding without my telling him what I wanted or needed. Thank you for this insight and help me with the guidance of these women to continue to assess my thoughts, feelings and actions according to your truths and boundary guidelines. IJN, Amen.

Wow SueB!!!! This is fantastic! Your insight is helping me SO MUCH! I have been at a loss as to how to stop feeling the way I have been regarding H's past infidelity and drinking and now I am beginning to get the info. I need to change my thoughts and reactions. Thank you so much for helping me.<P>I am beginning to see the picture formed of what David wants in our relationship. We talked again last night, first half of conversation light, how'd things go today, etc. We did talk about how this marriage is ever going to work. I have to remember to just let him talk, and not state my feelings until he is done, and be understanding of his opinions. After listening to what he has said the last couple times we talked he wants a devoted wife, who looks up to him, respects him for his work and in all ways, one who will not cause him embarrassment in front of his friends. If I can get rid of my fears regarding him, I believe I am the kind of wife he wants. After re-reading the last paragraph, what he is saying he wants is right along with what the Word says we should be, submissive to our husbands, respect them, "the heart of her husband does safely trust him", "she will do him good and not evil all the days of her life", and "even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord" 1 Peter 3:6. Now my challenge is with God's guidance, to become this woman.<P>He seems to be in great turmoil inside..... I got that feeling from him the last couple of times we talked. I have been praying for the Lord to work on his heart, so I consider this answers to prayer. <P>Will write more later..... time to go to church! This is great SueB!!!!!<P>

Wow Sue!!<BR>I agree with AW, you really have been studying this and understand how this all applies. I have figured some of this out. For example my feelings are my problem. So when I am having a hard time with something, okay a real example. Two weeks ago he would not tell me why he could not see me on Sat or Sun. So I stated my feeling but then said I understand that is my problem. I said "I hate when my family plays games and won't tell me what they are doing, but I umderstand that is my problem." What I should have said and it would have been accurate and it would have been more in tune to the fear. When you play games like this it makes me think the ow is coming into town and I feel rejected. I know this is my problem but I would rather you be straight with me then leave me wondering." As it turned out the ow was coming into town and the reason it bothered me so much was it was our anniversary and he was spending it with her and would not even acknowledge it at all. I had already expressed my thoughts that it bothered me, he might spend it with her, a few days prior to the above conversation. He was feeling guilty that she was coming and therefore the deception.<BR>I need to get better at how I respond. I should have said happy moving and just gone home at this point but I did not. I am always calm and my responses are probably overly controlled, because I do not want to respond in anger or say things I will regret later. I also know my h can not handle too much display of emotion and I know the ow explodes. But when he wants to play games then I need to leave. The best way in this situation would have been to remove myself from the situation of being in his presence while he plays games. Actually, I wanted to leave and every time I wanted to say good by he was off attending to something.<BR>My h can deal with emotions intellectually but has a difficult time when discussing them with the person it pertains to.<BR>I use to withdraw and say nothing. I think I have gotten better at addressing the issues calmly. However, it still doesn't always happen in the immediate. From withdrawing for so many years (because in the past he would be so critical and I was never right). Therefore I know I need to work on responding appropraitely more immediately, calmly. It is coming, but it is slow.<BR>Does this all make sense? Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for doing this Sue, your insights are really helpful. Back to reading the book also.

You wrote a mouthful my friend!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am always calm and my responses are probably overly controlled, because I do not want to respond in anger or say things I will regret later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First I have to ask if this is new behavior since the separation or have you always been this way throughout your marriage? And the purpose that you say you are choosing this behavior for is a positive one, but when are you honest about your feelings to him?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also know my h can not handle too much display of emotion and I know the ow explodes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>First thought</B>He seems to handle the OW's explosions, straightens up his behavior, tows the line she draws, etc.<P><B>Second thought</B>So you are allowing him to control your behavior by his behavior then rather than being true to yourself and your feelings.<P>In Harleys' concept regarding the Rule of Honesty for a Successful Marriage he states:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a withdrawal of love units, when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. As conflicts build, romantic love slips away. <P> The Rule of Honesty<P>Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In breaking this down further Harley identifies 5 components to this rule and point #5 states:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>COMPLETE HONESTY: Do not leave your spouse with a false impression about your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, or plans for the future. Do not deliberately keep personal information from your spouse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In setting boundaries for ourselves, I would imagine that this point is vitally important no matter how the other individual responds, not that we want them to have heartache, but that the relationship we desire to develop with them will be of the highest quality. What some of us are admitting to each other and ourselves is that we are less than honest for fear of "love busting" or being exposed to cruddy behavior. I am suspecting that this is not what Harley intended when he talked about us not love busting...in fact, if we go back to what is identified as love busting, they fell into these categories:<BR> 1.Angry Outbursts <BR> 2.Disrespectful Judgments <BR> 3.Annoying Behavior <BR> 4.Selfish Demands <BR> 5.Dishonesty <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> But when he wants to play games then I need to leave. The best way in this situation would have been to remove myself from the situation of being in his presence while he plays games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Removing yourself from the situation <B>after</B> clarifying the behavior and its impact on you would probably better fit the suggestions from the book. You are in a different position than most of us HW, in that hubby is still involved with OW. The boundaries you choose are going to be more difficult in some ways I would think. Hmm... how do I say this...in some ways, it seems like those hubbys who have reconciled with their wives must face the fear of the past being thrown in their face by the anxiety of their wives, while your hubby seems to be checking you now to see if you are going to do it...looking for excuses for his present behavior, i.e. "I knew you hadn't changed" type of stuff...don't know if that is accurate, just an observation. Not sure how the honesty thing fits in with love the sinner, hate the sin in light of that. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, I wanted to leave and every time I wanted to say good by he was off attending to something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, what I just heard was that he was avoiding you even then, if that correct? And what would have happened if you had called out, "Well, I am heading out now, talk with you later"... and then had done so? <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My h can deal with emotions intellectually but has a difficult time when discussing them with the person it pertains to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>His feelings or everyones? Is he feeling responsible for other's feelings and if so, how can you affirm him. And believe me when I say I am processing this stuff as fast as I give it to you to process.<P>Case in point...<BR>10 year old spends her time proving I am a terrible person and her mother and father are wonderful people and would be together if I wasn't in the way. All this tough love jazz going on here this Summer and their daddy crying and being a jerk is my fault, he is perfect. Now I know the truth and so for the most part, I can handle this stuff and am able to separate it for what it is. But by night time, I am ready for quiet time and finding relief from dodging her garbage because she is a kid and doesn't have a clue of what all is going on. So I tell them that when we get home from the outing we have been on, they need to go to bed since it is after 9. She looks at the clock and asks if it is 9:02 or 9:05 since she still transposes letters and numbers. My reply was that it was after 9 and it didn't matter if it was 9:02 or 9:05. H then snaps at me for not answering her and so I repeat, what difference does it make? This upsets him and he begins the sniveling again, which of course the children see.<P>We get to the house and I apologize for upsetting him although I admit that I am not sure what exactly I have said to upset him. He says he is upset 'cause I snapped at the 10 year old and then at him. I again asked what difference did it make whether it was 9:02 or 9:05 when the issue was that it was after 9 and the kids needed to get ready for bed. He says that time must be important because we have hours, minutes,etc. I remind him that man made time and that God didn't put relevance on time, so that makes him angry again and he says "who says the kids have to go to bed anyway?" So I reply, "fine they can stay up and tomorrow you can stay home from work and deal with their grumpy attitudes."<P>(You see how quickly silly stuff builds?) After the children are in bed, I again try to apologize and reconcile the issue and among other things he says, is that while I may have apologized to him, I didn't apologize to our daughter. I have to mull on this a bit and so I ask him what exactly is he angry about, that I snapped at him or I snapped at the child and he begins this long list of 6-7 things that he is angry about including false accusations that I don't care about the kids, that I am expecting him to apologize for his behavior as well and then asserts that he is the protector of this house and he will protect it in spite of itself...again, I have to go off and think about this, to sort for the truth of the matter. As I am sitting there thinking about the roles we have, it dawns on me that we are not to sit in judgement of one another, that if we see a brother doing something wrong, we are to gently restore them and that as the protector of the house, he is to love all of us enough to make us aware when we blow it, not condemn us for it and not alienate us. So I trudge back in the house and share this with him. That he was correct that in my attempt at reconciliation, I had hoped that he would apologize for his part because that is my understanding of reconciliation and that as the protector of all of us, this was my understanding of what scripture says his role was in regards to confronting sin.<P>There is more silence now, so that part has not changed, but I think that I feel better that I didn't let it fester, that I came back again and again as truth was revealed to me.<P>Father, thank you for your Word and for giving wisdom to those who write books for greater clarification and understanding. Thank you for helping me to see that my goal is to develop your characteristics and that this process, though difficult, is to make us aware that the end product is that we will be like you, and this thought alone should give us joy when you allow one more trial into our lives. Give us your insight when we look into Your word, when we read how Jesus handled the circumstances around him that we can learn from his example. IJN, Amen.

Again, this is some really great stuff! Thank you for sharing yours hw. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am always calm and my responses are probably overly controlled, because I do not want to respond in anger or say things I will regret later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Since we reconciled, this has been my form of reaction most of the time. SueB, I think you're right about lovebusters. Steve Harley has told us in our counseling sessions that it is more how you say it than what you say that is the lovebuster; i.e., crying, yelling, responding in accusatory tones are lovebusters, whereas stating "this is how I feel" calmly once, without attacking the other is appropriate. "COMPLETE HONESTY: Do not leave your spouse with a false impression" - exactly what Dr. Harley has told David. If H thinks something is going to hurt my feelings, he will withhold the truth, or tell half-truths. When he treats me this way, I need to tell him that I am glad he wants to protect my feelings and appreciate that, however the truth, no matter what it is, will help me understand and be trusting. <P>Lord, thank you for giving SueB such wisdom and insight. Her comments have been invaluable to me, and I praise You for giving her the words to say to us. Lord I praise You in the highest, and am so thankful You led me to this site. With your guidance and help, my marriage will become the marriage You intended it to be. Thank You Lord for teaching me the ways You want me to respond to David, in a gracious, Christlike manner, so that he may be won without a word. IJN AMEN

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Thank You Lord for teaching me the ways You want me to respond to David, in a gracious, Christlike manner, so that he may be won without a word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is the area that I really feel the Lord talking to me about, that the quiet gentle spirit is not a mouse who avoids truth, but embraces it, and displays the inner strength that the Proverbs 31 woman's example of smiling at the future shows. It is the inner peace and confidence from knowing who we are in Christ and where our trust lies, giving us a quiet boldness to face whatever comes our way.

Moving along in our learning process, Townsend and Cloud state in the workbook for this chapter:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The reality of boundaries in marriage is that no matter what the issue in your marriage, you need to take the initiatve to solve it. Though you may share no blame in creating the problem, you probably need to take some initiative in solving it. p.49<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In regards to owning our own behavior then, they challenge us to look at those instances when we failed to take initiative to solve a problem that we didn't cause. For us to be specific about why we didn't and what the results of our lack of effort was.<P>They further challenge us to look at why a demand for "fairness" is irrelevant?<P>What God says about this:<P>MT 5:23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, [24] leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.<P> MT 18:15 "If your brother sins against you,* go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.<P>Now wouldn't you know that God would zap me once again with the Matthew 18 jazz! My H does not listen to me and therefore my considerations follow in the next verses:<P>Matt. 18:16] But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.<P>I have been writing on this, but I think as I am rereading all of this again, I need to continue first the practice we have been doing, identifying my problem, assessing the truth of the matter and what God says about it and continue to assert the truth and work on my own behavior first. I guess I am sensing that since H did break down and go see Pastor, (even though he never told me this)I do not want to interfere with what God has going here and the focus on self accountability is important.<P>The changes I am needing to make in becoming more honest is to continue what I experienced last night, the sorting of the things said, the going back and clarifying my position, my flaws, my problems and working on the honesty part, which includes going to him and stating what God's word says in a gentle way. In a lot of ways, I have been honest, but as Rootbeer stated, my attitude may have been perceived as a zinger or love buster based on the way I said it. You know, God's truth, being the double edged sword, can have quite an impact on conviction, but if it is said with the wrong tone of voice (my responsibility) the desired impact falls to the wayside by a heart hardened by my attitude. (Shoot, another revelation that I have to confess to my husband about-groan.....)Sigh, well, I did ask for the Lord to mold and change me, guess I can't complain.<P>Father, thank you for exposing the tip of another log that needs to be removed from my eye.<BR>What a humbling experience to be shown myself and the way I am and how I have mistreated Your word. Forgive me Father, for my attitude, for taking advantage of what is good and truthful and by my attitude and tone of voice turned it into a weapon. What a lack of respect to You and to my husband! Father, I do desire to be all that You would have me be, to become the woman within Your perfect will for me, to be the kind of wife that my husband deserves so that by the consistency in my life, he will be encouraged to seek Your face and to lead as You lead. Continue to expose the darkness in my life. IJN, Amen.<P><B>"[God] saw our lost state and took the first step of sending his Son to die to resolve a problem that was never his"</B> Townsend & Cloud, BIM workbook, p. 49

SueB,<BR>This study just keeps getting better and better! I just printed out your last prayer, so I can pray it for me. I have so much to resolve, it seems overwhelming!<P>Thank you again so very much,<P>AW

Sue,<BR>I am copying this last part and I am going to discet your reply. This is good stuff and I do need the help. I know this must take some time on your part and I appreciate that you are willing to help us. I will respond later after I look at this closely. You are just full of treasures today. I had a quick look at your new post.<BR>Thanks hw

OKay, HW. I know it does take time to slide through this stuff. Mondays happen to be my day off and so I try to get as much studying in as I can and use the rest of the week to practice it! Heaven knows I need lots of practice. I am just grateful that there are a couple of you who are willing to trek along with me, so that I don't feel like I am doing it by myself and also to give me feedback or additonal thoughts so that I am continuously challenged to search the Word for the answer.<P>I haven't quite figured out how to put into words what the "Problem" is in regard to the way my H would prefer the lifestyle of this house to be and my problem with it to dissect it into something bite sized that I can make changes and choices about. Please keep that in prayer for me. I just feel like maybe we can keep each other accountable somehow.

Sue,<BR>Okay, I'm not sure how to carry the quotes down so I will just try to wade through this.<P>You are right she does throw her fits and although he gets angry and doesn't talk to her for a while (until she calls all seductive and woos him back) he does go back and it does not ruin their relationship and sometimes he changes, it depends. But you are right. <BR>I have yelled at him twice in our 35 years. But what I use to do is withdraw and not say anyhting and as you pointed out it destroyed much of the relationship. However, although I still don't yell I do confron him on issues now. Because i withdrew and did not respond for so many years I still have trouble responding sometimes at the moment. But once I do think about it I do say something and I have a few times more recently said something such as "it's not me you are mad at, so what is the deal" Improvementr, yes but mucho to go. <BR>I have learned the hard way that lack of honesty and lovingly confronting someone whpo means something to you is a necessary piece in a relationship. It is one of the things I want to get better at.<P>The other problem is sometimes at the moment I really do not know what I feel. I sometimes smile and I should probably be shouting. So again I have to work on recognizing and instead of stuffing emotions, call them out. Again I can do this afterwards but it would be more effective if I can deal with them at the time. This is also something that would help me as a counselor. Often when we can feel emotions in counseling we can use that to help us know how our client is feeling. So, yes this is something I definately need to work on.<BR>I wish I had left that day. But I am too much alert to how others feel and deny my own true feelings. For some reason I think there feelings are more important than mine. To some degree putting others first is good, but I really do it to the extreme I think. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm afraid to loose him, but essentailly I already have, and that would not account for the same behavior with oithers. I guess as I type this I guess I am a conflict avoider, we probably both are/were. So again something else I need to work on.<BR>Thanks Sue, again. I find your comments helpful. Back to reading and then I'll see whatever else develops. Yes this is harder seeing as we are separated, but I can still grow myself with or without him.<P>My husband intellectualizes his own feelings and has difficulty with others feelings because of his issues of shame and guilt so yes he takes on other's feelings as well. I know this is something that he has been working on in counseling. So how can I affirm that when we are together. Actually I think I have done this. I often ppoint out when someone gets angry at him and he feels he really didn't do anything that I say, "remember that is more about them then you." So I have done that.<BR>But you can see between him being critical and projecting his stuff onto me and me withfrawing and notr confronting him. I can see whay we are where we are.<BR>But I know so much more and do practice it more and more, I would just like the chance to do it. <P>