Mark 7:34 He looked up to heaven and with a deep <B>sigh</B> said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!").<P>Saw this word the other day and thought to myself, "gosh, another thing about Jesus that I hadn't seen before." Didn't take the time to check it out any further and then yesterday as I was trying to veg out on something less intense than I have been studying, I reread Max Lucado's God Came Near book and there it was again, a whole chapter on God sighing.<P>Pretty interesting on running a word check on a computer bible program that there are only two instances of the word sigh(ed) and yet, when you look up the greek/hebrew translation, the greek word "stenazo" shows up.<P>4727. stenazo, sten-ad'-zo; from G4728; to make (intrans. be) in straits, i.e. (by impl.) to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly:--with grief, groan, grudge, sigh.<P>If you run a search on the word "stenazo", here are the verses that show up.<P>Mark 8:12 He <B>sighed</B> (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." <P>Rom 8:23- Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, <B>groan</B> (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.<P>2 Cor 5:2 Meanwhile we <B>groan</B>, (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,<P>2 Cor 5:4 - For while we are in this tent, we <B>groan</B> (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.<P>Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a <B>burden</B>, (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) for that would be of no advantage to you.<P>James 5:9 Don't <B>grumble</B> (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!<P>Perhaps you guys already have this down and I am a slow learner, but I just got excited about this for it seemed to transform these verses to me in a different way and I found myself thinking about those times that I sigh...self accountability still seems to be the order of the day for me.<P>The American Heritage Dictionary defines sigh as:<BR>sigh v. sighed, sigh·ing, sighs. --intr. 1.a. To exhale audibly in a long, deep breath, as in weariness or relief. b. To emit a similar sound: willows sighing in the wind. 2. To feel longing or grief; yearn: sighing for their lost youth. --tr. 1. To express with or as if with an audible exhalation. 2. Archaic. To lament. --sigh n. The act or sound of sighing.<P>Two times Jesus, our example, sighed. One, as he restored sight, hearing and speech to a man and secondly, when dealing with the Pharisees, who continually tested him. Max Lucado states "All these sighs come from the same anxiety; a recognition of pain that never was intended, or of hope deferred". The Holy Spirit sighs or groans as He intercedes for us in our prayers. In our marriages right now, most of us are experiencing pain that was never intended in God's plan and we do feel that we are in the place where hope has been deferred, which is why we fight the battle for our marriages, why we seek to become the women and wives as God intended. <P>It seems like the admonition in James 5:9 fits the 2nd definition of "sigh", to lament, grieve audibly; wail. I know when I first came to this site, that is where I was at, lamenting my poor lot in life for the way my husband was treating me. Halleluah Lord, You showed me I grew a hair! It is interesting; the situation is the same, the demands are the same, the marriage is still not unified and yet, now I find I can sigh with a different attitude. I am finding a compassion for his pain, a grief for the hurt that misses the mark on what scripture says in regards to submission and leadership, for his confusion and even his anger as he holds onto to a self-centered vision and dreams that God is here for his purpose and to bless him rather than the other way around. I feel a fervent need to pray for him, knowing that God holds him accountable and equal zeal that I get these logs out of my eye so that I may be a useful vessel to the Lord in however He works in my husband's life.<P>In light of that, I mull over HE. 13:17 and James 5:9 and my sighing. Not only with my hubby but with my step-children, for there have been times when I have wearied at the task before me, when I desired a bit of quiet and my attitude and sigh was a grumble and perhaps even a growl in response. What if during my many requests before the Father, He had said Groan...."What do you want now?!" Have I, in rebellion to my husband's leadership caused him to sigh as in "Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a <B>burden</B>, (sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly) for that would be of no advantage to you." Have I been the groan, the burden, the grief in his attempt to lead as God admonishes him to, which increased his walk towards self-centeredness and rebellion? Oh Lord, I pray not.<P>God's timing is incredible for the next section of this boundaries for self chapter does talk about taking the log out of our own eyes and further challenges us to look inward at our behavior and see how we are contributing to the problem within our marriage. To search for the reward we receive by not setting boundaries on ourselves and those we love. <P>The challenge here is to look at the problem you previously identified and see how you contributed to the problem, passively or actively, and to identify what you might lose if your spouse changed his problem behavior. <P>For example, in this section, the authors identified a couple where the wife overspent and frequently bounced checks as she lost track of what she wrote. Hubby would see the overdraft fee and blow his top. Wife would work hard for a couple of days and then go back to the old behavior. When asked why the hubby didn't close the account or make his wife responsible for her actions, he responded that it wouldn't do any good anyway...As the counseling continued, it became apparent that the hubby had an anger problem at irresponsible people, and how unreliable politicians, co-workers, kids and his wife were. He prided himself on his dependability. It came out that he needed for his wife to remain irresponsible so that he could continue his protest against all the irresponsible people in life and that if she became responsible he wouldn't be able to stay angry. He realized that he sabotaged any attempts to help her learn from the consequences of her behavior and on top of that, blowing up at her made him feel helpless and ineffective. He finally was able to identify his fear about things beyond his control.<P>Our "log" then, might be some attitude or emotion we aren't aware of that encourages the problem to continue. <P>So, I admit that I have a fear of being controlled. I find it as claustrophobic as the time I was five years old playing hide and seek with relatives, and climbing into an old refrigerator in my grandfather's workshop with my aunt, unable get out. Where pounding and screaming and crying did little other than taking the air out of the tiny compartment we were crammed into. I was lucky. The Lord led my mother to open that door before we died. I experience that same shortness of breath, that hot air in my face choking me when I perceive situations around me that heighten an inability to control my environment, when I feel my safety being threatened. I kick, scream, cry, I pull out all stops and I rebel like crazy. Can you figure out it was my aunt who had the great idea to climb into the fridge? <P>Guess that brings up a lack of trust of others to know what is best for me. Sorting out the kid stuff, I see the lies I believed as a child about not being good enough and I am comfortable with confronting those lies with the truth of who I am in Christ. I think of the people I trusted and other than earning a full scholarship to San Jose State College for Art and then having my father tell me that I didn't need a college degree, I cannot think of any other incident per se that impacted or fostered mistrust.....aha! Thought of another one. My father, in his role, regarding what guys are about, was a wonderful protector as far as meeting the young men that I dated with a ritual of making hunting arrows, and checking these arrows with the razor sharp broadhead tips pointed at my dates as he discussed where we were going, when we would get home, how safely my date planned to drive, etc. What I also realize though, is that during his conversations with me about "guys", he instilled in me that guys were only after one thing and gave me the strong impression that the boys really didn't like me, just wanted what they could get...interesting....so boys were not trust worthy and if my father knew what was best for me...funny how these things carry out in our lives. To be honest, I haven't found a man who could hold a candle to my father, except in the area of criticalness-LOL <P>The experiences I have had over the last 25 years have lacked a leader in the home, a strong provider like my father was to my mother; who adored my mother, who protected her in every way, would not allow anything bad to be said about her, who, when she verbalized a desire for a small item to built for her convenience, he built it on such a grandiose scale that she knew how special she was. I found the only One that I could trust was the Lord to take care of me. Am I facilitating that belief in my husband now? Am I sabotaging him from becoming healthy so that I can continue this belief system? That I can continue to feel....what do I feel?....sad, jealous, bitter, short-changed...not sure, have to pray more about that...to prove that he is no more trust worthy than the other men in my life. If so, what reward do I get out of it? Is it a fear of intimacy in light of my father's comments that boys are after one thing, that no one would love me for me? Brought a tear, must be...OKay, Lord, now how do I fix this one, dig this log out? PHEW!!! This is hard work!<P>Okay HW, don't know if that process helped with what you wrote or not, but I guess this next piece helps us identify our part so that we understand the dynamics that we are in. I can really relate to what you were saying about not knowing what you were feeling at the moment, etc. I don't know about the program you are going through, but part of my degree in counseling required that we submitted ourselves to the process so that we would be able to identify with our clients. I was so on-target with others' feelings, but my feelings were so numbed, I had to carry around one of those mimeographed pages that has all the little smiley face type of things like we have on this site with the feeling identified underneath to be able to identify the feeling. I was amazed at how frozen I was and that was when I really took a look at the part of Phillipians 2 that I had not been considering myself at all which was against the Lord as well.<P>So you wished you had left that day...don't kick yourself...the good part is, the Spirit will make you aware the next time and you will be more sensitive to it. And in some ways, I find the frozen feelings or at least the remembrance of putting them on the shelf was helpful when I need to speak the truth in love without emotion. Sort of like the "what is" in writing out Social Work reports, just stating facts and what you see without putting bias in there. More able to say, "is that kind dear" rather than " I am so hurt that you are mean to me, what did I do to deserve this kind of nasty treatment, after all I do for you....etc." You get the picture.<P><BR>Father, you are taking us on a journey to break down the barriers in our marriages, to look to you for the example for feelings, stating boundaries and being more real in our relationships. Continue to show us ourselves and how we have been and may still be encouraging the problem to continue. Continue to mold us into the women of God that you desire for us. IJN, Amen.

Wow SueB, I am more amazed every time you post at your wisdom and insight! I hope that soon I will be able to understand and apply more of this great stuff.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The experiences I have had over the last 25 years have lacked a leader in the home, a strong provider like my father was to my mother; who adored my mother, who protected her in every way, would not allow anything bad to be said about her, who, when she verbalized a desire for a small item to built for her convenience, he built it on such a grandiose scale that she knew how special she was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You could be talking about my dad here!!! For many, many years I have longed for my husband to treat me with the love and devotion my dad did to my mother. My parents marriage is in my mind what God intends for marriage to be. My dad was most definately the spiritual head of our home, he led devotions and prayer every day, took care of us all, worshiped the Lord. David grew up in a home that was just about the opposite. Anger was pretty much the only emotion his father ever showed. Sometimes I feel like he stays married to me because I do shower him with love and affection, which he did not receive as a child. When we were first married, my dad tried very hard to show David that he would love him as if he was his son, but David rejected my dad. During all the times I have been around his family, I had never seen H's father show any sort of affection or emotion towards his mother. Not a good role model.<P>Thanks again for your profound insight. You are such a blessing to us!!! <P>Love and prayers,<BR>AW

Sue, so you are a social worker? I caught a few phrases and I said to myself, hum, sounds like a counselor to me. Don't know whether you are still doing it? I di go to counseling myself last year. And I need to find someone soon here again. I know my supervisor at my sight this year feels strongly about being in counseling yourself, and I agree, but have been lazy about finding someone. I will respond and read what you wrote more thoroughly later, I have an out of town guest visiting, and we've just finished dinner, she is visiting with my kids so took a quick look at the computer. Thanks for responding. I want to read the verses more thoroughly.<BR>Talk to you later.<BR>So what do you do? You can email me if you'd rather talk there, Thanks.

I thank you, too, SueB, for all you are sharing. I know it must take a lot of your time to write out your messages, but it is so helpful to some of us.<P>Just today I was crying out to the Lord asking Him why the emotional intimacy I so desire in my marriage is lacking. Why am I the one wanting it so much, wanting to know I am loved, cared for, special, longing for a sharing and giving of ourselves. Why did God make me this way and put this longing in me? Why did I choose someone who either doesn't long for it, or doesn't recognize that he might long for it? What is this void feeling really about?<P>This I do know: God can love me in that intimate way. Also, He made me like I am and the desire for that closeness and sharing is from Him (so I shouldn't give up on it). He is a relational God. He has a hand in my marriage. Nothing is a surprise to Him. Knowing what He knows about me and my husband, He did not intervene and prevent the marriage. So, He must have a plan - for good. I need to get in line with Him and yield to His way and His plan. Maybe I have been looking at it all from the wrong side. I have been trying to fix this all myself.<P>I, too, have been wondering about the log in my own eye - praying God will show me. You raise an interesting point - what am I doing to prevent healing? To prevent the very thing I am longing for? I, too, will ask God - I can't figure it out myself!<P>So, many things to ponder. I hesitate to read yet another book, but the one about Boundaries in Marriage sounds very good. Thanks for your posts. Blessings and encouragement to you!<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited July 27, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, many things to ponder. I hesitate to read yet another book, but ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is a good book but if you don't want to read one more book, just continue to join us here. I am taking this slowly 'cause there is so much in this chapter. Of course, on the first read through, I went straight for the chapter on living with a boundary resistent person! If we take the responsibiliy to really assses ourselves, since we are the only ones we can change, and brainstorm withone another on what some of these principals might look like, especially as they tie into HNHN and POPW, I think our own personal growth and understanding will strengthen us as we accept the challenges before us in our marriages and in our relationship with the Lord. Thanks for sharing with us a part of your journey. <P>I really like your user name.

Thanks SueB. I will keep joining you here and maybe I might have some insight too, but you ladies continue to amaze me - and leave me tongue-tied.<P>It is not that I don't want to read another book - I love books. That is just the problem. I have to discipline myself in that way. Still, I think Boundaries in Marriage, would be helpful to me and my husband. I'm going to look around first and see if I can find a copy (like our church library). On the other hand, I do like to own my own books, so I can write in them. My husband gets frustrated that I have so many books and ones I want him to look at it also. It gets overwhelming for him, so I have to pace myself.<P>Anyway, I'll keep joining you all.

Please don't be tongue-tied-we learn so much more from each other's experiences and what the Lord has taught each of us. He has us on different pages for a purpose I think, so we can carry each other's burdens and to provide comfort as He provided it to us. Though problems may be different, many times the principal concept to solve the issue or to look at the issue differently is the same. I really value when someone else adds their input. It helps me to think.

Got an opportunity to practice boundaries tonight. <P><B>Event</B>For whatever reason, God has shown that the reason does not matter) my husband doesn't come to the dinner table when told that the meal is ready to eat. The children want to eat with their father and so wil hang out around him until he comes to the table.<P><B>Response</B>My previous responses have been complaining, verbalizing anger, sitting in seething silence, etc. I have felt hurt because if I put out the effort, I felt they could make it to the table. My responses then increased their defensiveness and the evening would lose any harmony.<P>[Awareness[/b] God just really made me aware of how I was the heart of the home and that my grumpiness did not faciliate harmony. Since I am the one who prefers a hot meal, it became my problem. I need to put a boundary on my feelings of anger, bitterness and resentment.<P><B>Action</B>I called my family to dinner. After 3 minutes when they had made no effort to come to the table, I sat down and ate my hot dinner. I did not call them but one time and I did not nag them. They eventually came down and my dinner was complete. My husband was miffed at me for not waiting but I told them that I wanted to honor them by not yelling and being a grump and since I was the one with the problem about not getting to eat hot food, I no longer wanted to put myself into a position where I ate cold food and got mad at them, so I have decided that I will call them once and then if they don't show up, I will sit down and eat.<P>Their response was pretty good, my hubby seemed to calm down. I will just have to follow through on this daily. They say that they want to eat as a family. We shall see.<P>Baby steps, baby steps.

Sue,<BR>Thanks for sharing with us this example. It helps me to see it in action because then I can think through examples myself.

You are welcome HW, I too learn from seeing the examples, which is what I was hoping others sharing. As I look at it this morning, I am impressed on about two things. One, I suspect my action should have occurred after I shared my feelings about this to my family and then given them the information about the action that I planned to take from now on. The other thing that amazes me is that I have done this behavior before with my hubby, but done in anger, in retaliation for my hurt feelings, etc. My motivation was different this time in that I was taking responsibility for my feelings and not allowing bitterness and resentment to grow. I was being more honest with my family and allowing them to make the choices they make. I was not being judgemental on the choice that they make to eat cold food. I honestly can say that this was more freeing.

I have this week off from work, so will be able to spread out information this week. Again, I do encourage you to either write examples here or privately to HW or myself so that we can learn together. Heard just this AM from one of you that hubby took a surprising action with his family to protect his wife! That is so encouraging! The next bit of learning-<P>As we have focused this past week on taking the log out of our own eyes, T&C also challenge us to take ownership of our lives as well, assuming responsibility for our hearts, our loves, our time and our talents. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We are to own our lives and live in God's light, growing up and maturing our character along the way: "Speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ" (Ephesians 4:15) (p.64)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No one can do this job for us! As God showed us the trait via Adam and Eve about the apple to blame someone else for our lack of discipline, we easily find ourselves trapped into blaming others to shift the light of truth away from ourselves. In fact, T & C challenge us that we seem to be more concerned about the person who is making us crazy or miserable than we are about the state of our own souls! Ouch!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When we neglect setting boundaries with ourselves and focus instead on setting boundaries with those we think sorely need limits, we have limited our own spiritual growth. As in any growth process, spiritual growth proceeds to the level that we invest in it. (p.65)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remembered how we talk about how we reacted when our loved one acted out last week? And how we needed to identify our sin in that process.<P>His Action<BR>The truth is he may be all these things! <BR>Anger<BR>Irresponsible<BR>Inattentive<BR>Self-centered<P>My Reaction<BR>Looking at our sin in response<BR>Withdrawal from his anger<BR>Resentment at his irresponsibility<BR>Letting go of your responsibilities due to his inattention<BR>Becoming self-centered out of his self-centeredness<P><BR>T & C aptly remind us that our reactions are not first seeking God's kingdom and righteousness, but rather seeking satisfaction from another individual. 2 Cor. 5:10 tells us: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. In this one on one conversation with God, we will not be able to hide, blame or push off our sins on the problems of our spouses.<P><B>"You are responsible for half your marriage and all of your soul. Boundaries on yourself are between you and God" T & C, p.66</B><P>So, in light of the above, T & C challenge us to look at the things we are blaming our spouse for? And to look in our answer for those areas that we need to assume ownership of.<P>Secondly, what boundaries are we trying to set with our mates and again, in looking at our own log and need for assuming ownership of our stuff, does this provide insight to you in those things that you need to own?<P>Thirdly, we are challenged to look at what sins or irritatins are we reacting to inour marriage and to consider why such reactions tunt our growth in Christlikeness.<P> And finally, in light of the discussion about our need to become more concerned about our own issues than our spouses, T& C challenge us to pretend that the day of judgment is today and assess how we would stand in a one to one conversation with the Lord, with no one to blame or to deflect problems, etc.<P>Heady stuff!!! Father, as we seek to change our behaviors and own our behaviors that are an abomination in your sight, as we seek to become the women as You desire, show us concretely and explicitly how our reactions dishonor you and our husbands. Show us how to behave differently and how to change our thinking processes from blame mentality to one victorious in truth. IJN, Amen.<BR>

Okay Sue,<BR>I've got a situation to work through. As I was reading BIM, I realized I've read Boundaries all they way through but not BIM. So I have gotten through the 10 laws and thought of a current situation. It is different with me because my h has moved out. However, there are still situations that I think can apply. I offered to drive him home Sat after he visitied. Partly because I wanted to have time with him and to talk a little. But after I dropped him off I felt bad because I knew she was visiting and was in his apartment waiting. So as I was reading through the laws I recalled this. Besides the above reasons I gave, I am sometimes afraid of hurting him so therefore not being honest about how I feel, which we discussed in my last couple of posts here. So I realize that is not helping either of us. It does not apply the law of sowing and reaping. It does not follow the law of responsibility. My thinking tends to be I feel bad he should give up the ow. Now, of course that is true, but if I don't say something about how I truely feel and continue to do this because I fear... fill in the blank, that is not helping either. So let me tell you what I am thinking of saying when the situation comes up again and then help me flush it out. <BR>The next time he comes over and I know she is in town this is the situation. Okay lets say he comes over tomorrow night. I do not know for sure whether she will still be there. So if he asks me for a ride home I am going to ask if she is still in town. If he says yes, then I plan to say. "You know the other day that I drove you home, well I felt bad all the way home afterwards. I realized that it hurts me to drop you off when I know she is there waiting for you. So, when she is in town, although I love driving you home I can't do it any more because it hurts me."<P>When he comes over during the week, I know it is harder to get a cab to get home, but if I always bail him out he is not reaping what he sows. I do not want it to be vindictive but I realized it is me that has to take action and responsibility for my own feelings, and I can't be responsible for his hurts when it is his actions that are doing the damage. And my reaction is really furthering the damage because I am not responding honestly to the situation and I am then not taking responsibilty to change me and somehow think it will change him (LOL). I do not think my response above is in any way mean, but instead honest and loving. But I want your thoughts on it and anyone else's. I have to stop enabling (I hate this term). If he doesn't even ask me for a ride then I am not going to offer , if I know she is in town. When she is not in town, I don't mind driving him home, if I am not too busy. <BR>Please give me your thoughts.

HW, I do think you are getting it exactly! I had planned to go through the 10 laws after we completed this chapter because in some ways, I found it more confusing when I wanted to focus on changing me, etc. If you think we need to stop and go over them, I am sure willing.<P>I know you hate the word enabling, but maybe in Jesus day, it was the sowing and reaping choice of words. I really think you have thought this out well and are understanding the concepts and how your behavior does allow him to continue in his without consequences. I do think God wants your marriage to be rebuilt healthy and as you say, you are increasingly aware of how dishonest you have been in regards to your feelings. I do think he needs to hear how his behavior impacts you, in a calm way. God will do the convicting, we just need to be honest with the information we provide.<P>We have a cable modem and the storms have knocked it out. Did install freei.net but not sure how well this works. I will continue to check back as I am able.

Hi I'm finally back. Once again, SueB this stuff is great and really helping me. I have a situation I need to work through also, about my feelings of feeling neglected when David is gone. I will try to figure it out first then post my dilemma for your input. It may be tonight though. Thank you so much for helping us!!!!<P>

SueB,<BR>Do you think we should start a new thread? This one is getting pretty long.<P>

No, don't start a new thread!!!!<P>It is simple to go to the last page when opening it! It makes it easier to get the entire concept down.... and I am reading and re-reading!<P>Thanks Sue B, this is great stuff.<BR>TNT

I had thought about a new thread, but I agree with TNT that it is nice to have it all together and not have to search for the pieces. Here is the next piece.<P>I mentioned earlier about the "bad "spouse, the ones whose outward actions ring forth such statements to us about what amazing people we are for putting up with the garbage, etc…..of how the very people who think they are encouraging us are, in reality, enabling us to remain in our sin by not setting appropriate boundaries on ourselves. This is especially true as the focus on the outward behavior tends to be more apparent than the inward behavior or reactions we display. How much easier it is to say how rotten so and so was for what they did to you, rather than lovingly identify and exhort you for being indirect, or passive or for withholding feelings…gave me something to think about!<P>The next piece they talk about in regards to the "good" spouse seems to me to fit in with Harley's stuff . <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the "good" spouse often feels helpless in the relationship. He has tried to love better, and more, yet the problem continues. Because being "good" generally means being caring and compassionate, he doesn't have access to other helpful tools, such as truthfulness, honesty, limits and consequences. p.66<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have a feeling that perhaps we misunderstand somewhat what a plan A looks like. Trying to better understand the giver/taker role in regards to our love units, as I mentioned previously, we sometimes hedge honesty so as to not love bust and miss the boat altogether by not respecting the other to be able to be responsible for their own feelings. The idea of limits and consequences seems hard to imagine as love and yet, it making more and more sense to me in regards to respecting my husband and not shortchanging him. Rootbeer gave a good example of this earlier from one of her sessions with Harley.<P>The third reason it seems to be hard on our setting limits or boundaries on ourselves is what T & C call the tendency to take up a morally superior position towards our spouse, thinking that "I am not capable of being as destructive as my mate" and how scripture warns us that this is a dangerous position to take in light of RO 3:10-18:<BR>[10] As it is written:<P> "There is no one righteous, not even one;<P> RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,<BR> no one who seeks God.<P> RO 3:12 All have turned away,<BR> they have together become worthless;<BR> there is no one who does good,<BR> not even one."*<P> RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;<BR> their tongues practice deceit."*<BR> "The poison of vipers is on their lips."*<P> RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."*<P> RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;<P> RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,<P> RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."*<P> RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."<P>And 1 Cor 10:12: So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! <P><B>"Any time we focus on our own goodness, we turn our hearts away from our need for love and forgiveness" T & C, p67 </B><P>The workbook challenges us to identify which role we play, that is, the "good" or "bad" spouse and to identify the behavior of the "bad" spouse.<P>If you are the "good" spouse, which of the 3 above mentioned reasons make boundary setting difficult for you? And what might you be getting from the trap of being "good"?<P><BR>

Still finding it difficult to maintain boundaries, communicate with an avoider, and wondering how to implement consequences - or rather to stop enabling those to violate my boundaries.<P>Keep talking!<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited August 02, 2000).]

Boy, I tell you, not having access for just one day gave me such a sense of loss for the support I receive from you ladies! <P>The above blurp was kind of a review of what I had mentioned before for us to reassess how we might be reaping something from all the yuchs in our life and the challenge to do something differently by setting limits or boundaries on our own selves.<P>Another important piece in learning that we need to realize our need for limits is because we will be submitting to the same rules we want our partner to submit to. This submitting process runs parallel with Eph. 5:21, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."<P>T & C assert that "submitting to the boundary process is the great equalizer in marriage and keeps both spouses in a mutual relationship instead of a one-up or one-down one." (p.67)<P>Out of this comes the realization that both "need to accept and respect the limits of the other; no one plays God, doing what he wants and expects the other to comply." (p. 67) It not only challenges us in the "log" process to look at those behaviors of ours and making sure we are being self-controlled before we challenge a spouse to become self-controlled, but warns us that if a spouse does see such descrepancies, there will little chance of any changes on his part. <P>Another instance of us need to walk the walk in addition to talking the talk. We all get into ruts and routines in how we have handled conflict, etc. The example used in the book identifies a spouse who withdrew if he felt his wife wasn't listening to him. Her response to that withdrawal was anger about his isolation, the endless circle... T & C state that when she drew a boundary on her anger and frustration and instead showed her husband concern about the hurt he felt which caused his withdrawal by asking him what she did to hurt him, his response was to move backinto relationship with her. In fact the guy was so touched by her gesture of concern that he broke down and cried. <P>The challenge then is to look at your relationship and discern whether it is a mutual one submitting to one another in the boundary process, or more of the one-up or one-down one. Remember we are dragging out the logs, so be specific and detailed when you write your assessments in your journal. Describe a specific incident if at all possible to look at how the dynamics went.<P>Then, look at what brought the two of you to that situation that oyu just described. Does the scenario described above regarding the spouse withdrawing, the wife getting angry help you or your spouse to realize the need for boundaries? Or is one of you not setting boundaries and you are experiencing the one-up or one-down relationship.<P>The last question to consider is to ask yourself what keeps you in that dynamic of one-up, one-down? And my challenge is to ask what do you want to do about it?<P>I really value your willingness HW to bring up a scenario so we can all see how it is similar, etc within our own relationships. You brought up some good points about the communication process. <P>Here on the home front, we are having more withdrawal on my H 's part since I quit mind reading and jumping in anticipation of what he might be thinking, which still is not the goal intended but it is a switch from the yelling, verbal abuse. I also am finding it easier then to go to him and ask similar questions as above, and I cannot lie and say it is just going along smoothly, but I am encouraged by the baby steps. I feel like we are both at least making some effort.<P>But in the honesty department, I still can't go to him and say how grateful I am that he is willing to learn these things with me, because of his own low self-esteem and assumption that he is "so messed up". Even though I try to reassure him that it took both of us to get here, he does not hear that. <P>Tomorrow we look at how you free your spouse by setting limits on yourself and we will begin looking at setting boundaries with our own character. Hugs to you and again thanks for the willingness to learn this with me as it makes me more accountable.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 02, 2000).]

<B>Hello Ladies</B><P>Okay, I just have to tell you ladies what a great thread. I haven't been on this forum for a while. I was talking to my dear Friend <B>TNT</B> and she mentioned it. <B>Trustntruth, thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. Love ya, Lady!</B> So, here I am printing it all, (boy it is enough to be a book in and of itself!) and I am going to take it camping with me this weekend to read, and reread. This way I can absorb it all. (I hope! )<P>Printing this has been a task. I jammed the printer and everything. I am sure from scanning this, that it will be worth all the effort.<P><B>So, a HUGE Thankyou to one and all for this thread.</B> <P>You are all so dear and wonderful. Can't wait to get back and check this thread out again.<P>Have a great weekend all. <P>Much love,<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><BR><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited August 02, 2000).]