Wow, Karenna, gosh, at first read, I was kind of embarassed at all of the flowery compliments, but then, as I have thought about it these past 12 hours, I am kind of excited because I can see how God is changing and refining me, taking that fiesty spirit who, as a child, brought home stray kids instead of animals, who always fought, sometimes physically, for the underdog, whose desire to control the world so that there was no more hurt, and allowing me to experience so much hurt and challenges in my own life so that I could finally realize my own limitations, like Job when the Lord said to him <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The humility received then at this truth, I think, kind of made me ready to learn to do things more His way, to learn to use the sensitivty He gave me in a different way and I can smile amidst the hurt, though this may sound crazy, because it gives me the clue that I am doing something on my own power again instead of His, that I am seeking my agenda, instead of His, that I am again trying to control that which is not mine to control.<P>The interesting thing is, when the challenge questions or thoughts at the end of each section talk about asking your husband because his insight is probably better than our own in regard to some of these behaviors, is that my husband told me before we got married that he felt that I was being too complacent in my life, living in my sheltered little world in WA. I think maybe he was right, that I was relishing having gone through so many storms with kids, poor relationships, Tom's death, etc. and was content to finally experience some kind of peace, experiencing new joy in the cookie ministry I had started, enjoying encouraging and being encouraged by the two friends/prayer partners that I had met with weekly for 4 years, feeling the excitement of being able to help the patients I worked with, whether is was for in-home services or preparing for death due to disease or aging. I sensed God's presence in such a mighty way, it was like heaven on earth in a way. I think I had lost that yearning, that deep desire for "home" and I had found a contentment to just ride along...I was being a part of His plan, I had no doubts about that, but I realize now, He had so much more planned for me and it took this marriage and the challenges they have presented to move me forward in my walk and in the refining process to get rid of more dross. <P>Wow! What insight he gives in just a few hours huh? I am not a person who likes to be in the limelight, so this study has been a big challenge for me, anxiety and prayer for what it is He wants me to learn and to share with you all, trying to be sensitive with where all of you are in your growth process as we encourage one another, trying not to have any of it be "the world according to Sue", and some days when no one responds right away, worrying about whether I overstepped in some way, or whether God is working on you guys in this area and you are just needing to think and pray it through as I have had to do in some of these sections. <P>I am so grateful that this thread was started by TNT because then I don't have to have to see a thread with so many pages with <B>SueB</B> blaring out at me. I am not sure I would have had the courage to do this if that was the case.<P>And I knew you were making a joke about the "pressure", but I have missed your input and wanted to know how much I valued you. Like I told you a long time ago, I am in awe that God is allowing you to go through these things that you are experiencing because he does not allow anything that you cannot handle and so He must see something very special in you, maybe something that you don't even realize yet.<P>So, in humilty, I accept and thank you for the compliments, since this is an area that God is showing me I need work on <P>Rootbeer, my dear sister, you are taking those baby steps to own what is yours even though it strains hard against the primal instinct to scream "Ahhhh, not fair!" I am so glad that God is blessing your efforts with David's softer voice. In fact, with talking with many of you off this forum, God is doing lots of things in and for all of us to bless us for our efforts in trying to honor Him and our husbands.<P>The next section that I will start later today is setting boundaries on our attempts to control....ugh! This section has SO much stuff in it and I have had to use much self restraint to not skip the other stuff and just jump in here! <P>HW, I will have opportunity to access an AOL account later today. I wil play with it to see if we can figure out what the problem is. Have you tried the back button when you lose stuff and see if what you typed is still there? If it is, then you can hit the submit button again and see if it posts that time. I have had to do that a couple of times.<P>And dear Brown, what a roller coaster you are experiencing in all of this stuff. I wonder if hubby was caught off guard because you stayed one step ahead of him even though he says he was there for a different reason. Stay firm! Are any of these principles stirring your heart in any way? How can we encourage you in the process of setting boundaries on yourself to reduce some of the hurt?<P>Father, thank you for moving in our lives, for not being willing to allow us to be complacent but encourage us to grow daily, for giving us that hunger and thirst for a greater understanding of Your word and a desire to go home, to recognize that we are but aliens here and that part of our yearnings here on earth will never be met until we see you face to face. Oh what a time that will be! <P>Continue to mold us into Your likeness Father, increase our internal hearing that we may hear the gentle whisper of the spirit. Strengthen us to take the baby steps necessary in the refining process. Give courage to all these sisters to write out prayers as though they were directly talking with you and to know that you don't care about fluency but the heart. Break us out of any bondage that holds us back from lifting our voices in unison to you. <P>Father, I think of a story that I heard so many years ago of an old monk who sang often praising you. One day 7 strangers came and asked if they could join him in seeking your face, which he agreed to, and together they began to worship and praise you in song. The 7 had wonderful glorious voices and the old man just became silent and in awe of the music that filled the air. After many days of this, an angel came before the old man asking him why he had stopped singing and he told him how inadequate he felt in the presence of the others, of how he felt that you deserved this kind of praise that the 7 provided and that he was not worthy of opening his mouth. I don't remember what the angel told him Father, but I remember that the old man sent those 7 away and went back to singing praises with his crotchety old voice.<P>I remember what an encouragement that was for me for I had spent my childhood being told that I sang like a horse and it seemed to bring a new meaning to the psalm of "make a joyful noise to the Lord." Let all who fear that they are inadequate in their words to be encouraged Father, to be impressed that you look at the heart and it is not the flowery words that you desire but the words themselves, the boldness to stand before you in the presence of others so that where two or more are gathered, there you are in our midst. Just as I am inadequate in singing Father, let then be encouraged to make a joyful noise and to lay all burdens on the throne. IJN, Amen.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 11, 2000).]

<B>Boundaries on our attempts to CONTROL</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>GAL 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Funny how things said in a different way turn the lightbulb on. Never thought about control issues with ourselves and our mates as a "yoke of slavery", but now it makes so much sense!<BR>Satan is so slick and subtle in these things!<P>T & C say that "if there is any sure-fire way to distroy trust and love, control is it" (p.76) and that the need to set limits or boundaries on the tendency to control is the most crucial of all areas.<P>GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness and <B>self-control</B>. Against such things there is no law.<P>"Boundaries preserve the freedom of one's spouse without, at the same time, enabling the irresponsibility of that spouse." (p.76) Preserving freedom, not enabling...interesting.<P>T & C provide some indicators to determine if someone is attmepting to control:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> • Not respecting the other's no. The husband will make several attempts to change the decision of his spouse and disregard her feelings.<BR> • Punishing a "wrong" choice. When the husband chooses to do something that the wife doesn't like, the wife will act put out or like a victim, or she will accuse her husband of not being more loving or caring.<BR> • Not valuing freedom. The husband will be more interested in his wife's making the "right" decision, than in her free, heartfelt choice.<BR> • Bad results. The wife who is being controlled will be resentful, act out, or retaliate. (p. 76-77)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The key for me was in their comments that God is the only one who could justifiably control our decisions and yet, not only does He not do this, but He gives us freedom to choose and He weeps when our choices lead to ruin:<P> "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. MT 23:37<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>God places such a high premium on our freedom that He shies away from forcing us to do things that would benefit us. He understands that we will never learn to love or respond to Him without that costly freedom.</B> (p.77)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ugh! Truth smacked right in my face! A reality that is showing itself in all aspects of my life! Why am I getting angry at my 8 year old when she doesn't comb her hair for 4 days and then cries as I am getting the tangles out, for my choice is to not go out in public without hair being combed? Just as it is my choice to not out in public without hair being combed, is it not her choice to not comb her hair and to have to suffer consequences for the choice she made. Why am I angry? <P>How much more honoring of my daughter to have compassion on her in spite of the choice she made. God is helping me to faster catch myself when I am feeling emotions. How much more honoring it is to empathize with her for the choice she made and how hard it is to have to live with the choices we make. Now some of you may feel that in retrospect, I should have made her comb her hair on day one, but somewhere in there, I have to teach her that she needs to have some freedom in choices and I have to pick my battles with the step children. So I pick ones such as brushing your teeth for that affects me and my pocket book or to shower and wash hair for I am affected by the smell, if the clothes are not down in the laundry room on laundry day, I cannot wash them...don't know if that makes sense. Some how we must all learn self-control...I am trying to teach them and NOW God is showing about my own self-control issues in the area of MY emotions!<P>The boundary/control section is further broken down to show the different ways people try to control others and I will get to that in a minute, but as I was contemplating on these things, something hit me that I have to run across here for input from you guys, and it is in the area of our praying.<P>In light of T & C's statement that God places such a high premium on our freedom that He shies away from forcing us to do things that would benefit us, are we not only trying to control our husbands, but God himself when we ask Him to bring our husbands to their knees, to bring them to the end of themselves, to drag our husbands to Him or back to Him, in the case of back sliding spouses? I see scriptural basis for binding and loosing, for so many of the other things we pray about and for, the truths we lay claim to, the need for fervency and tenacity like the old woman in Luke 18, but in light of T & C's statement, the verse above and even the parable of the prodigal son, where the father let him go and then kept watching for him with anticiaption, to return, knowing that he would have to feel the consequences of his behaviors before he made different a choice are we overstepping our authority in this area of prayer? Again, of thinking of the Lord asking Job, " where were you when I laid the foundations...." are we in error and attempting to control what we do not have authority to control? <P>I am skipping ahead a bit, but something said about anger really hit me. I have mentioned before that since all behavior serves a purpose, anger can serve two purposes, one to control and the other to cover a hurt. T & C make a statement in regards to control by anger's purpose as it is "our basic protest against the fact that we are not God and that we cannot control reality". (p.78) So. my question is, in light of the fact that we are hurt and angry that our husbands are making unhealthy demands, are controlled by alcohol, seeing other women, neglegant and on and on, are we, in our requests to the Lord, since we are not God and cannot make our spouses see reality as we see it, attempting to control God in that we want him to <B>be God</B> and <B>do</B> what <B>we want</B> and, that is, to make the spouse tow the line? Our desire to have godly marriages is a good one and a goal to keep reaching for, such as Paul's "goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14), the thing that he runs the race for with great gusto. I believe God desires for us to learn this piece about honor and loving His way, to develop the fruit of the Spirit "self-control", etc. <P>Not wanting the evil one to have any opportunity to water down our goal with lies and half-truths and pulling us down the wrong path, I needed to ask this question. Are we oversteppng our bounds?<P><p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 11, 2000).]

Sue B wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So. my question is, in light of the fact that we are hurt and angry that our husbands are making unhealthy demands, are controlled by alcohol, seeing other women, neglegant and on and on, are we, in our requests to the Lord, since we are not God and cannot make our spouses see reality as we see it, attempting to control God in that we want him to be God and do what we want and, that is, to make the spouse tow the line? <P>Not wanting the evil one to have any opportunity to water down our goal with lies and half-truths and pulling us down the wrong path, I needed to ask this question. Are we overstepping our bounds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. That is how I see it. We are told to pray for God's will to be done. We know He will force no man to heaven. We know He prizes freedom of choice as one of His first and best gifts to mankind, even predating the creation of the world. How can we try to countermand His plan and ask Him to violate His own principles?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Harley admits that your Taker won't take it for long without sabotaging something. Thus he stresses the importance of both of you learning to care, give, negotiate and work by POJA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Karenna, does the book mention anything about how to balance then if one partner doesn't accept the POJA as valid? Or does the actual process of drawing boundary lines on yourself, your behaviors, your thoughts, your responses and your emotions lend itself to greater generosity in the spouse? I am asking because at this point of the book on boundaries, we are doing the self assessment jazz to take logs out of our own eyes, from a perspective that we are becoming the woman God wants us to be. But is there a point from Harley's perspective on giving/taking that we should draw some kind of line when we are not receiving back anything? When two people are not working toward the same goal? <P>Maybe that is an unfair question and if so, I apologize. I am seeing some success as are others in our changed responses to ourselves. I do see us all taking more risks based on what we feel God is leading us to do. Maybe this has to do with the trust thing, trusting God for the outcome and we just have to keep plugging along until He tells us to go in another direction.

Dr. Harley admits that it is not possible for one person to do everything. Plan A gives you the BEST CHANCE to reestablish two-way intimacy, but at some point the other person has to start to care about your feelings or there will never be romantic love on both sides. BIM didn't give me hope on that score either. It does take two to make a GREAT marriage.<P>Boundaries is about YOU. Not about changing anyone else. But when one half of a partnership changes even just a little, the other side ALWAYS has to change something. <P>So if becoming a genuinely better, more godly person is so upsetting to the other spouse that s/he rejects you more and more and more, and continues to try to violate boundaries, then you know that THEY are not capable of a relationship based on positive ideals. <P>SueB wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Or does the actual process of drawing boundary lines on yourself, your behaviors, your thoughts, your responses and your emotions lend itself to greater generosity in the spouse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do believe that this is the heart of our personal power and authority. They may not become generous and caring, but they will change somehow.<P>You and I are free to give caring love forever. Nothing is stopping us from ministering unto our spouses until death unless they run away. (Has been known to happen!) As long as we have no expectations and do not take out our disappointments on them we can continue to be merciful angels of charity forever working on a disfunctional relationship. <P>Personally, I am not worried about this happening. I believe that the process is self-limiting. They either respond positively or run for the hills. <P>My H continues to respond positively. Slow, incremental changes. Every week he is a tiny bit better, just slightly more spiritually advanced than he was the week before. He still has episodes of "destruction," but they keep getting milder and more infrequent. If he were not open to improvement (as he claims) he would have been outtahea a very long time ago. <p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited August 12, 2000).]

Hi ladies. I haven't been on much the last couple of days as I don't feel well. Having severe pain on the lower left side of my abdomen. Can't seem to get rid of it. <sigh><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So. my question is, in light of the fact that we are hurt and angry that our husbands are making unhealthy demands, are controlled by alcohol, seeing other women, neglegant and on and on, are we, in our requests to the Lord, since we are not God and cannot make our spouses see reality as we see it, attempting to control God in that we want him to be God and do what we want and, that is, to make the spouse tow the line? <BR>Not wanting the evil one to have any opportunity to water down our goal with lies and half-truths and pulling us down the wrong path, I needed to ask this question. Are we overstepping our bounds?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I don't think we are overstepping our bounds. I believe we are praying within the will of God when we pray for salvation for our husbands, recommitment to the Lord for our husbands, for the restoration of marriage, etc. We are praying towards a goal, our prayers have a purpose, one that will glorify God. We are to pray for one another. "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." James 5:16<P>Interesting article on the concept of free willsm to read at <A HREF="http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_32.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_32.htm</A> <P>The ending paragraph says "Let us, therefore, have nothing to do with this error. Let us believe the Truth of Holy Scripture rather than the lie of the devil." Of course Satan wants us to stop praying for our unsaved loved ones. <P>A couple verses come to mind.....<P>"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, <I>let your requests be made known to God; </I> —Philippians 4:6 <P>"The king's heart in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes." (Proverbs 21:1)<P>"But our God is in Heaven, he does whatever he pleases." (Psalm 115:3)<P>I believe it is of great importance to pray "in the Spirit". Holy Spirit prompted prayer is always of God. 1 Peter 3:1 is always on my mind "Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2: when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear." For me, I feel better if I pray to the Lord, telling Him all my troubles and asking Him to speak to my husband. I pray with my prayer partner for our husbands because Mat 18:19 says "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven."<P>So, to me, asking for things of God in prayer according to the will of God is appropriate.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In light of T & C's statement that God places such a high premium on our freedom that He shies away from forcing us to do things that would benefit us, are we not only trying to control our husbands, but God himself when we ask Him to bring our husbands to their knees, to bring them to the end of themselves, to drag our husbands to Him or back to Him, in the case of back sliding spouses?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Rootbeer, it is this piece that I am concerned about. Jesus prayed to have the cup taken from him, but then relinguished his will to the Father's each tme he prayed. <P>Hope you are feeling better!

AW,<BR>I tried the link. I got to the main sight but not the specific article. Do you know the title of the article. I am very interested in what they say about free will. I've had many say that well J has free will. I agree but they make it sound like God cannot over come that. If that is the case none of us would be saved.So I would liket ot read what someone has to say from a Bibical angle. Thanks.

SueB, I'm feeling a little better, thanks. If its not gone by Mon. AM, I'm going to the dr. <P>I'm not sure what to say, other than we should pray the Lord tell us what He wants us to pray for regarding our husbands. I feel the Lord wants me to always pray for David, so I do. Right now, though I feel like He's working more on me and my faith in Him. <P>Did you see today's devotional from Neil Anderson? The verse was "I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am<BR>(Philippians 4:11)." I am trying to learn to be content in my circumstances, and become accepting of David <I>just as he is</I>, alcoholism and all. One of my goals is unconditional love for him. For I have figured out that his behavior is not my fault, nor am I accountable to God for it, only David is. <P>I remind myself when he calls drunk that I love him despite his disease, and that I did not do anything to cause him to drink, he made that choice. Tonight David is getting drunk. I know that for a fact, as he called a while ago, to say they were having a barbeque and do some drinking as 3 of them are leaving next week. So I logged on here to keep myself from calling there.<P>I praise God for all the things He is doing for us. He is so good to us all. <P>Blessings,<BR>AW

Hw, the name of the article is "The Bondage Of The Will" by Rev. Steven Houck<P>I think I missed a letter on the URL. Try this one: <A HREF="http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_32.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_32.html</A> <BR>

AW, <P>I agree entirely with what you said about praying for our unsaved husbands. The prayers that feel inappropriate to me are the ones that say, "God, don't let my husband sin anymore," or "God, please make him love me." Keep praying hard, just think about God limiting Himself in preserving our agency. I don't pray that God cease to be God by violating his own Prime Directive. <P>There are many examples of his orchestrating events to illustrate the need for repentance vividly to sinners He wants to be His servants (Jonah, Saul and others), but never has He changed a sinners <B><I>heart</I></B> without the sinner's own invitation. <P>The whole concept of Boundaries includes respect for the boundaries of others. Even God's.

That's it, what Karenna just said! You verbalize so well girl, thank you. I have printed out the article to read some time today.

"To fully understand this gift of agency and its inestimable worth, it is imperative that we understand that God's chief way of acting is by persuasion and patience and long-suffering, not by coercion and stark confrontation. He acts by gentle solicitation and by sweet enticement. He always acts with unfailing respect for the freedom and independence that we possess. He wants to help us and pleads for the chance to assist us, but he will not do so in violation of our agency. He loves us too much to do that, and doing so would run counter to his divine character....<P>"To countermand and ultimately forbid our choices was Satan's way, not God's, and the Father of us all simply never will do that. He will, however, stand by us forever to help us see the right path, find the right<BR>choice, respond to the true voice, and feel the influence of his undeniable Spirit. His gentle, peaceful, powerful persuasion to do right and find joy will be with us 'so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved'"<P>Howard Hunter<BR>

<B>Control comes in Different Flavors</B><P><B>Scenario</B> H & W in argument. H's perception is in the "life must be fair" realm and keeps internal scoreboard of such things. <P><B>Event</B> H agreed (at her insistence) to go to opera with W previously. H believes this behavior earns him point of leveage to an event he wants to go to. H has event scheduled and gives W info about it and W reminds him that her mother is coming to visit that day. <P><B>Response</B> H reminds her of opera sacrifice. H feels angry that his sacrifce is not noticed or appreciated and that he is being denied his reward for the sacrifce. W is firm that he be available when her mother visits. H anger escalates into yelling and verbalizing, "This is the payment I get for all I do for you! How could you be so ungrateful!" W is hurt, reduced to tears and goes to bedroom crying. H feels guilty over his hurtfulness, follows her and calms W down and promises to be at home when MIL visits. H still feels resentful but his guilt covers it up for now.<P>T & C's example above (p.77-78) shows what happens when neither spouse values the free choice of the other. They each try to take the freedom from the other. H is aggressive towards W in order to intimidate and punish her for not keeping the score even. His overt action (aggressiveness) receives a passive aggressive (covert action) response to punish H for his anger and as a means of getting him to change his mind. (Remember, ousiders would view his more visible action as negative and sympathize with the wife on what a wonderful person she was to put up with this abuse. No one holds her accountable for her passive aggressive response.)<P><BR>Some ways couples attempt to control each other:<P><B>Guilt</B><P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Guilt messages are intended to make our spouse feel responsible for our welfare. Guilt controls by creating the impression that our spouse's freedom injures us. By choosing differently from us, our spouse has been thus unloving. Statements such as "If you really loved me" or "How could you be so selfish" and wounded silences convey the message. p.78<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Anger</B><P>As stated before re being the basic protest that we are not God and cannot control reality, anger can be direct (overt) or indirect (covert) which includes sarcastic remarks. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It can involve threats of retaliation [and] in extreme cases, become dangerous, as in abusive marriages. p.78<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Persistent Assaults on the Spouse's Boundary</B><P>One person says no, the spouse will make attempt after attempt to change the other's mind. Similar to the strong-willed child or door to door salesman, a bombardment of arguing, wheedling and pleading occurs until the "no" spouse is worn down. The process is to keep asking until he hears the answer he wants, a refusal to live with the boundary of the other.<BR>(p. 78-79)<P><B>Withholding Love</B><P>T & C state that of all the ways we attempt to control, this one may be the most powerful. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When one spouse disagrees, the other disconnects emotionally until the spouse changes to suit her. (p. 79)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>God created us to need love and connection. It is our life source, and to have it withdrawn, we are "without the basis of existence." (p.79) The pressure to do anything to reconnect to the one we love makes this attempt to control a most powerful and damaging behavior.<P><BR>Phew! Boy! I can identify with all these behaviors on my H's part. He makes demands, I state a boundary (or say no). He then uses anger, guilt and all of the door-to-door salesman tactics to waer me down. If I continue to calmly state my boundary, he then enters the silent treatment zone, withdrawing all love and affection, but still expecting the care and nurturance and respect due a husband.<P>But I also know that no one is perfect and without fault in a relationship, so I have to go back through the many disagreements and find my part in it.<P><B>Scenario</B> Husband makes a demand, I state a boundary.<P><B>Response</B> Husband does not respect my boundary, makes persistent attempts to change my mind. He utilizes both overt and covert anger, attempting intimidation via yelling, stomping and accusation. He tries guilt, "If I really loved and cared about him", "Its your way or the highway"...and then if those don't work, he initiates the silent treatment in combination with the tantrum, crying, pouting, etc. only coming out of it long enough to throw out nasty derrogatory remarks or unless he decides he wants to get laid.<P>Associated feelings and behaviors on my part....First of all, I guess I feel hurt that he does not respect my boundary and then angry that he does not value my free choice. I do not feel cherished, valued, honored, a unique gift to my husband, nor a team member. I do not feel accepted as someone capable of thinking and making decisions, but actually feel more like a nonperson or slave in respect to his expectations that he receive all the nurturance and respect due a husband.<P>So, what do (did) I do with all of those feelings? Originally, I think I was the doormat and allowed the intimidation into compliance, silently seething. When I became aware that this was occurring, I attempted to match his yelling with yelling so he could see how it felt (and perhaps change his behavior ). I then became convicted that this was not the way to respond since this type of aggressiveness was not part of my overall personality and I found myself withdrawing emotionally...maybe even worse than that, more in a discounting way, so that probably fits in the passive agreesive response, with disdain and disgust for his behavior, the eye rolling type of stuff, a mockery of his two year old tantrums, internally laughing at this behavior, finding my mind calling him names, "baby" etc., and this could be seen in my very expressive face. Definitely no compassion for how he felt. <P><BR>Okay, sainthood just fell away...smile. Can you see how we all get caught in this? So, time to go inward....<P> • When, if ever, have you felt controlled and noticed a sense of freedom disappearing and love's existence threatened?<BR> • In what ways--implicit or explicit--are you saying to your spouse, " I will love you if you do this or that"? (For help in this look again at the four controlling indicators. Where do you see yourself in that list.)<BR> • Where, if at all, do you see yourself or your behaviors in the T & C scenario above?<BR> • How do you tend to respond to your spouse's free choices? Give an example or two. How would you like to be able to respond?<BR> • When, if at all, was the most recent time, you communicated the guilt message? What method, such as a wounded silence or an "If you really loved me..." or "How could you be so selfish..." statement did you use? What would have been a healthier way to communicate your thoughts and feelings?<BR> • When, if at all, was the most recent time your spouse communicated a guilt message? What means did he or she use? How did you respond--and how would you liked to respond?<BR> • Is anger a tool you use to attempt to control your spouse? If so, are you direct, throwing tantrums, like the example above, or covert, being passive aggressive or sarcastic? What threat(s) do you make? Why do you think you choose this behavior? What would be healthier?<BR> • Does your spouse tend to use anger in an attempt to control you? If so, is he or she direct, throwing tantrums, or covert, being passive aggressive or sarcastic? What threat(s) does he or she make? How do you respond--how would you like to espond--to this anger?<BR> • Do you tend to be like a strong-willed door to door salesperson when your spouse says no to you? Wht boundaries are you most unwilling to accept? Give an example. Why won't you accept his or her no and live with the boundary being set?<BR> • Does your spouse tend to be like a strong-willed door to door salesman when you say no? Give an example. What might be a healthy way of dealing with your spouse's arguing, wheedling and pleading?<BR> • Are you sometimes guilty of withholding love? When did you last resort to this means of control? What might have been a healthier way to deal with the situation?<BR> • Does your spouse ever withhold love in an attempt to control you? What might you do to make this attempt to control you ineffective?<P>So, I chopped through how I have responded in the past and lately, I have asked myself more questions in regards to the issues brought before me, taking some of the cues we have been learning, in regards to feelings mostly, since this seems to be the area I am the weakest in. I decided I wanted to be able to lovingly and honestly address the issues thrown at me. I want to be able to show honor and respect in the same way that I desire honor and respect.<BR>My mind was drawn to something I had forgotten from my early parenting days, to quit saying no to the kids and start saying yes...let me explain...<P>How often when the kids say, "Mom, can I...?" we say no. How often we kill the spirit and create bitterness, exasperating our children, and show them a parent who is continually negative. Scripture warns us about this...EPH 6:4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. If we want them to learn self-control, stewardship, etc., we need by example to show them the rewards of such. So, instead of, when the child asked to go outside to play, saying "no, you can't go out and play, get in there and clean up your bedroom", I would say "Yes, you sure can as soon as that room is cleaned up. What are you going to play today?" Same end requirement but more positive relay. When the room is done, the praise for a job well done and encouragement to continue can be in the form of going the extra mile with them, asking them if they would like you to make them a picnic lunch to eat in the back yard or whatever....just as God blesses us for good stewardship, we bless our children.<P>SO-armed with that memory and with the desire to place more honor on my husband in spite of how he behaves, I began searching for ways to say yes to my husband. <P>When we were first married, I wanted to be part of the team and felt pretty isolated at times, so, since I was fairly skilled in money management, I offered to take over the bills, making some negative comment about his paying the bills late and ruining our credit....sigh, hard to look back now. Anyway, until recently, I was unaware of how that statement impacted and hurt my husband. His passive aggressive response to it was to charge and charge and demand more and more instant gratification. He refinanced the house to pay off the credit cards against my feedback against this plan, knowing that he had not corrected the problem that got us in this position to begin with. And sure enough, within two years, we were back in debt with the credit cards, which, with the combined double house payments of a first and second mortgage, I was unable to make payments on time, which was continually thrown in <B>my</B> face as that was the reason I TOOK (implying a usurping of my authority and his leadership) over the bills in the first place. <P>You can see the spiral of exactly what we are talking about in regards to control stuff. He wants something new, I say no we can't afford it, he makes other jabs, I respond in regards to his sabotaging my efforts and on and on.....so I connect with BIM, see myself and us in so many areas. I go to him, apologize for my behavior, ask for his help in setting up a budget, which he does. I sell part of my property in WA and pay most of the credit cards off and we now have a plan to finish paying the debts off and I am feeling relieved and almost like a team...Then the bomb hits! <P>He wants something new, something that costs $3,000+. Multi times daily, I hear "Can I order it yet, is it time to order it yet, okay if I order it now...." SCREAMMMMMMM! But! I recognize this because I have read this book and I have this goal to honor and to be speaking the truth in love, etc. I take some cues from these examples, and I say to him when he says I want this, to affirm him in his desire to have this new thing, (for right now that is his nature and God will change that part of him in His time.) "I know you want this honey and I want it for you too. How about we go through the budget again and see what we could do differently..." He wants immediate gratifcation so this attempt at honor does not work. <P>So, I went through the budget by myself and found a way to save for those things we want, for in all honesty, I would like maintenance things done on the house, the kitchen redone. I decided that the money that was going to be set aside for emergencies from one of my 3 jobs, would be divided into 3 categories, one, emergency savings, two, hubby dream money, three, my dream money, for my dreams are equally as important as his. After showing this to my husband and showing him how much he had already in his dream account towards this dream purchase of his, he states "well, can I just order... (a different dream item)"? My first initial response/feeling had to do with physical violence about the head and shoulders, but, having been given tools from this book and the scriptures, etc. I said, "Sure! You can spend the money in your dream account any way you want!" And lo and behold, there was enough money in it for him to order this item and even had $26 left towards the original dream purchase.<P>So, now I am considered superwife, I get lots of kudos, thanks, etc. and he is affectionate, loving, etc...while he is in the short term feel good mode. But you know, short term feel goods don't last and it isn't a month later and he says, "Is it time to order the....dream item yet?" God is teaching me to not say the first thing that comes to mind, but to say the second thing, so I trashed the nasty derogatory comment about his insatiable appetite for "things" and said "Sure, you have that much in your account already?" Well, of course he doesn't, and he knew that we both knew that he didn't, but it took the responsibility off my shoulders and I didn't have to tell my husband "NO" again.<P>So now, I am looking for other ways to say yes to him, and for those boundary issues that I feel are not negotiable, I am practicing truth in love and stating it in a loving way. I also am looking for things that might be some kind of compromise. In other words, when those boundary things come up, I now state, "Honey, you know that one does not have an option clause on it", or "Gosh honey, we have been having such a nice evening and I was looking forward to (some enticing redirective activity). Are we now going to fight about this issue and lose the opportunity for closeness"? Now I am hoping this doesn't fit in the guilt category for it isn't my goal, but I feel so strongly that life is too short to argue all the time. I do cling to the 60's mantra of "Make love not war" in my marriage. Even if that area of our marriage isn't all it is designed to be, I have confidence that somehow God is going to work it out.<P><BR>So, I know I have given you much to think about in this area. Next we will look at submitting boundaries on Our Control.<P>Father, we praise you for your word and the wisdom you have for us in our relationships. Continually give us understanding and wisdom to know your will for us. Be the potter and mold us as you desire, run us through the refiner's fire and give us your joy knowing that once through the fire, we will have had the dross removed and we will shine like jewels. Teach us how to smile through the pain. IJN, Amen.<P>

Sue,<BR>Here we go again. I have tried to post a reply twice, now. I was kicked off line once and then lost it the second time. Maybe the Lord just doesn't want me to share. I think I will try writing on notepad again and see what happens.<P>Great stuff here.

I talked with someone else and they used Word and then cut and paste to aol without any problems. I will be at that office that has AOL in a couple of hours will try then...are you using just aol's browser and you have loaded Netscape or IE.? Will check back in a couple...<P>And I suppose the Lord may not want you to share, but I am betting more that the "other guy" is wanting to stop this growing/learning stuff.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 14, 2000).]

These "boundaries" postings are truly awesome. I truly believe the Lord is working in my heart to find new approaches to dealing with my emotions and the subsequent reactions. My H is extremely impatient and when he is in his "manic" state of mind, it is difficult to even talk to him. Given the serious issues we have gone through, he often assumes a negative response or reaction from me. The other day, I gently reminded him that I was truly trying to change as I wanted to react more positively. We were discussing the purchase of a phone and I began to make a statement. I said "I was talking with so and so the other day and she said....."H cut me off, began yelling at me saying he did not want to hear what anybody else thought. I realize my H is not in a normal or positive state of mind, however I am believing that this is being worked out by the Lord. I took a breath, smiled at my H and calmly said "What I had to say was not negative, what I began to say was so and so said she had an extra phone and she would give it to us if we can get it to work." H apologized....a little step was taken. In my situation, his reactions are influenced by his condition. He often has horrible tantrums and then he apologizes...this is true in all of his relationships. I am seeing that he is struggling with himself, that his reactions are painful to him as well as to others. The issue of controlling....ahh that one convicted me....I see how I have often resorted to trying to control my H by my subtle reactions to things. I withdraw, do not smile, and the telltale indicator of this comes from my thoughts and feelings...not necessarily my words. Sometimes my accusations are extremely subtle. My H is usually quick enough to pick up on the crestfallen face, the withdrawn behavior, and even the tears. I realize now, that I truly sought to change/control the issues by this behavior. Problem is, it was rarely successful. What little success I have had with influencing my H was with quiet, direct honesty and that had to be given with the right spirit. As strange as it may seem, my H's problem is helping me to learn more honest and loving responses to the things that bother me. Many times, I stumble on to something that works and then I analyze it to see if I can repeat it in the future. My biggest problem was in overcoming my hurt (and the Lord has brought me a long way in that area). With the adultery, lies, rejection, etc that I experienced in recent years, I lost control and reacted in anger. I was shocked at the negative emotions that poured out of me. I fought them every step of the way, but it was as though a dam broke and there was no holding them back. I suppose that many of us here, have experienced this, given the intensity of the emotions that our pain created. I have always been a very calm person (outwardly) and able to suppress my emotions. This situation was more than I could deal with. I suspect that was one of the things that the Lord wanted to help me with. At 43, I am now acknowledging my emotions and beginning to deal with them in the right way. I have had to learn to honor my emotions, to understand why they were there, and now I am learning to express them without being angry, selfish, or desrespectful. I have even found that I am applying some of this to other areas of my life, e.g., at work, and with my children. Just baby steps and I have so far to go, but I truly thank the Lord for teaching me all of this. I believe that I will probably be a better person for all of this. I can now thank the Lord for allowing all of this pain to enter my life, I couldn't see any good in it for such a long time, but I kept believing "that what others meant for evil, God meant for good." I can now see some of the issues that had festered deep inside of me and realize that it had to take something big to unearth all of it. It is so awesome that the Lord has created this opportunity for all of us to fellowship together.

Sue, just got back now. I have not tried again, I will fool with it tomorrow. As far as sharing I question it too. I think I have to be careful what I share and how on the forum, I think that is one thing the Lord, is working on with me. I have a tendency to blab. I do not gossip but rather discuss to understand and maybe sometimes (unconsciously) to understand and maybe get sympathy. I think this section just talked about this. So I am working on this or rather the Lord is working on this with me. Anyhw, I am going to write it off line and see what I can do. I do only use aol as browser. I know we have internet explorer and it does activate sometimes, but I'm not sure. I should ask my daughter, she may have fooled with it more than I have. If you know any tricks let me know.<BR>I took the tect I had written off line and highlighted it and made a copy. But when I went to paste where I had put the cursor it did nothing. I think I will experiment once here.<P>Did not work. In the edit menu it says paste (it is highlighted) but when I place the curseor where i want it and then hit paste, nothing happens.? So I don't know what incredibly easy step I am forgetting, but...<BR>So any more ideas and I will try and I will also ask my daughter.<P><BR>

Well, I went to the office to play with their aol and notepad/word and the have switched servers and erased all aol.... HW, you could send me the text in an email as an attachment and I will put it up for you. If anyone feels hesitant to share on here, then send it to me and I will quip it down to a sister sent this and use H, W, etc. for identification. I personally am excited to see the new posts and feel God is working here. The posts have been more postive in taking a look at our own behaviors rather than bemoaning our husbands, so I am not exactly sure where your concern is HW, but you know you are more than welcome to bounce ideas and thoughts off of me. <P>The other point that I mentioned a long time ago is that since this is for our own learning and edification, the goal was to look at the logs in our own eyes and the challenge was to do the exercises into your own personal journal. I had mentioned that most word processor type programs, like Word, Word Perfect had password protected capabilities so that no one else could read your journal. The sharing here is about how God convicts us in an area, of how we are trying the changes, of taking the challenges and of seeing how God is changing us and how our husbands are responding to the new us. It is for brainstorming ideas so that when one of us is in a situation that we are stumped on how to change us or how to respond differently, we can gleen insight from one another, bonded sisters in the goal to become the woman God would have us be.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 15, 2000).]

hw - maybe I can help you. When you type your post in Notepad, save your file before you do copy and paste. When you are done, click on the menu item "Edit", then "Select All". Your document will be highlighted. Then click on "Edit" again being careful not to click anywhere in the document or it will become unhighlighted. From the Edit menu, click on "Copy". <P>Next, go to this forum, and reply. Click in the Your Reply box, then from the browser menu, click on "Edit", then "Paste". Your data should then be in the message box. If you have a problem, your typed text will still be available in your saved notpad file. <P>I, too, have been feeling convicted about what I say about my husband. Seems like everytime I turn around Proverbs 12:4 (An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones) pops up. I've gotten several emails lately with it in them, as well as in the workbook I'm using (A Wise Woman Builds Her House). My prayer partner from church and I are trying to stop talking negatively about our husbands, by giving each other daily reminders. <P>Blessings, <P>AW