<B>Submitting to Boundaries on Our Control</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The spouse who really loves his/her mate and wants him/her to grow spiritually will, at some point, desire to give up these attempts to control. <B> He will be willing to relinquish these strategies in favor of granting freedom and love.</B> T & C, p. 79<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Some ways to set limits on your controlling attempts.<P><B>Realize the Cost of other control</B><P>Guilt, anger assaults and withholding all negate freedom and love. One of the possible consequences of other-control is that you might get external compliance, but in the process, you might also lose your spouse's heart. When we set a limit on our desire to control others, we place a higher value on love.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do you do that negates freedom and love? Look again at the types of control we reviewed in the previous section.<P>What indication, if any, do you have that your behavior is sowing seeds of resentment or causing your spouse to be emotionally absent?<P>If your spouse's attempts to control you are sowing seeds of resentment or causing you to be emotionally absent, what might you do to try to keep this dance from doing any more damage to your relationship? More specifically, what and how will you share with your mate how you are responding to his attempts to control you? p.64<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Ask your spouse to let you know how your control affects him</B><P>This step focuses on the fact that marriage has at its core, a bond of empathy, so the feelings of your mate are important to you. Often if you find out how your loved one has been affected by your controlling attempts, how relief from hurt is often distance, the compassion you feel towards your spouse, can encourage setting better limits on the control.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When will you ask your spouse how your control--or your attempts to contol him --affects him? How do you want to respond to the answer, both immediately and in terms of the action you will take?<P>If and when your spouse were to ask yuo this question, how would you like to respond? What requests for alternative behavior would you suggest to your spouse? p. 64<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR><B>Experience your Own helplessness to Change your Spouse.</B><P>Smile, thought of another area that I need to grow in. We have differing perceptions about something. I share my thoughts about it and he responds negatively. I say, "honey, you obviously didn't understand what I was trying to get across, so let me share with you in another way," and so I try to explain it differently, for I do want him to understand me. Again, he responds negatively. I know that men and women think differently and so I must be sharing it wrong and I try a third different way. After this attempt with the similar negative response, I share that in light of gender differences, I am obviously not explaining it so that he understands where I am coming from, so how can I help in this, for I do desire for him to understand me....he responds, "You do not have a desire for me to understand you, but a desire that I agree with you and I do not agree with you!" Stinging truth? Perhaps this is like the boundary of not accpeting another's "NO". I did think my motives were pure, but perhaps not. Was it more if he could see things from my perspective, then he would change his behavior? <P>Whether we admit it or not, whether we like it or not, our spouses will not change their behavior until they are ready to. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You may need to realize that you live with someone whom you can't "make" do the right thing.</B> p.80<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This helplessness is often a very powerful emotion. Anger control often implies that we have more power over our spouse than we in reality do not. Accepting helplessness hurts, but it clears the way for reality to enter.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why is control over your spouse so important to you?<P>Why is the realization that you can't change your spouse important in your attempts to stop trying to control him or her? .p. 65<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Learn to Grieve</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Grief helps us to accept the truth and to let go of things we can't change or have. When you allow your spouse freedom, you will often feel loss and sadness about losing what you desired from him. Allowing yourself to feel this grief frees you to accept reality and find new ways to adapt to your marriage. p.80<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We all go through the stages of grief in different ways and some of the grief places we will come back to more than once! The 5 stages of grief are: <BR>1. Denial and Isolation. <BR>2. Anger. <BR>3. Bargaining.<BR>4. Depression. <BR>5. Acceptance.<P>And grief isn't necessarily the loss of a dream, but perhaps more that the dream doesn't occur in the way you thought it would be. I still have great hope that God is going to change and heal our marriage. It just isn't going to happen in the way I thought it would, nor in the time line I had figured out. It actually will be better for I am getting the logs out of my eye, seeing myself in a whole new light. Of how in some ways, I have allowed my perfectionism to override my ability to have compassion for another. I do believe God is going to change me into the woman with the soft and gentle spirit. The biggest hedge to that is my will, whether I stop interferring with what God's plans for me are, when I quit trying to change the agenda.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In what ways will you allow yourself to experience grief? With whom, for instance, will you share your struggle to stop trying to control your mate?<P>What will you do to try to find new ways to adapt to your marriage? (Reading this book counts as one way! ) p.65<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Work through Dependency Issues</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If your spouse is the only person through whom you can get needs met, you will have a bent toward controlling him. p. 80<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We need to find sources of love, approval, truth or forgiveness from others in addtion to our spouse. We need to learn about ourselves so that we know what it is we are looking for, i.e. if we have a need for recognition of the good things we accomplish, we cannot realistically expect our spouse to provide all the attaboys that we need. We need to utilize peers and coworkers, etc. to meet this need as well. Not placing the whole burden on our spouse releases them and gives them greater freedom, which in turn, allows them more room to love us.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What sources of love, approval, truth, or forgivenss--other than your spouse--do you have in your life?<P>If your list of resources is short or nonexistent, where might you go to develop relationships that might one day offer you love, approval or truth? p. 66<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Be a Separate Person with your Spouse</B><P><BR>Two halves make a whole. And while this truth applies in all instances for math purposes, God made Adam and Eve different and then joined them together to form the perfect whole. If one partner in the relationship defines him /herself by the other mate rather than be her own idividual soul with unique gifts, talents, quirks, etc., then when her spouse disagrees or makes a different decision, that difference is often personalized as an attack on the person. Personalized such that the person may think that since her husband disagreed with her, then he must hate her, etc. because he differed from what she thought or said. This usually results in retailiation, to lash back to protect herself. <P>The inability to be separate from the husband's feelings is the problem. As we go through these steps to set boundaries on ourselves, we will experience feelings and decisions that have more to do with our spouse that with us, leaving us free to allow our spouse to be free. Is this confusing? <P>Remember way back in the beginning, we talked about sin being in the response? Anger itself, is not sin, but our negative response leading to retaliation, unkind words, bitterness roots, allowing pride seeds to keep us from asking for forgiveness, etc. is the sin. When we own our own feelings and take responsibility for how we respond, our awareness increases in the sorting out of whose problem is it. If I know that something is my hubby's problem, then I am free to have compassion of the struggle he is going through (not fix it myself), I can be encouraging and loving, I can ask how I can be supportive to him, etc. I am much more at peace with myself because of the boundary I set on my anger, knowing this is more in line with God's will. In the same way, we give the same regard to our hubby. <P>So, if my husband is angry, it means he is angry, the problem is his to deal with. It does not mean I am a bad person. It means my husband has a problem. If a part of his anger has to do with some behavior on my part, then I need to own that and deal with it, but the overall responsibility for his anger is his. I am God's daughter, unique and special (and all those things we are because of who HE is )<P>When the kids were smaller and someone would call someone else a name, we would ask if calling them a chair automatically turned them into a chair? Of course not... In the same way, as adults, we need to take those internal messages we receive when someone else wants us to assume responsibility for their feelings and compare them to the truth, God's truth. <P>It is the same process with another person's decisions. What's the truth?<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What scene from your marriage, if any, came to mind as you read this section? Be specific about what happened. Were you or your spouse unable to be separate from the other's feelings? <P>Step back from the scene you just described. In the calmness that comes with distance from a situation, explain why the decisionwas not a personalaction against the spouse. despite the spouse's (or your own) feelings. p. 66<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Value your Spouse's Freedom as You Want Your Freedom Valued</B><P>Matt. 7:12[NIV] So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.<P>Recognizing that this is the basis for how spouse are to treat each other, remember how it felt the last time someone attacked you for your freedom to choose and have compassion on your spouse's choices.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How would you like your spouse to respond to your freedom? And what additional freedom would you like to experience in your marriage?<P>How would you like to be able to respond to your spouse's freedom? What additional freedom would you grant your spouse? In both cases, what barriers stand in the way of both yourhealthier response and greater freedom for your spouse--and what will you do to remove those barriers? p.67<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><B>Set Boundaries on Your Spouse Instead of Controlling Him</B><P><BR>The development of control strategies often occur when a wife feels she cannot say no or be free with her husband. There may be fear of a partner's reaction (anger, abandonment, rejection) or a feeling that she cannot protect herself. Control becomes a substitute for establishing boundaries of self-control with the spouse. To set appropriate limits enpowers one to feel safe and give up controlling the partner.<P><B>Thinking about it</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What factors, such as the sense that you can't say no to your spouse, lie behind your control strategies?<P>What boundaries might you set up for yourself so that you can feel safe and give up controlling your partner? The answer to this question may become clearer as you continue through BIM. p.67<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Well, there you have it ladies, the entire chapter on Setting Boundaries with Yourself-Becoming more loving. Do you feel more loving? Are you seeing changes in yourself and in the responses for both you and your husband? As I look back, I think I probably first came to the MB forum to brainstorm how I could "fix" my hubby. LOL What I am realizing is that I have to fix me instead!<P>Obviously this book has many chapters in it. We can review the 10 laws of Boundaries and how they apply to marriage, we can look at biblical values that the bible holds in high esteem and how these values work to produce great boundaries in marriage, ones that can help us build marriages that last, or we can bumble through the chapter on living with the boundary resistant person. It is your forum, so let me know what would be most helpful to you.

Boundary resistant person.....

I think I'm definitely not getting this! Many of the posts here talk about exerting control over our H's. Well, I think my level of control is subzero (he undoubtedly has a different view). I have an example. <P><B>Event</B>- A friend had a birthday party on May 6 where my H took some pictures. A week later, friend's wife asked for some printouts of the pics and gave us some $ to cover expenses. <B>Three and a half months later</B> the pictures are still not done!!! Next week she leaves to visit family and wants to take pics with her. <BR><B>Response</B>- several! After a week passed, I asked H when he'd get the pictures done. He got snippy, reminded me that he's an artist, and it'll get done when he feels like it. <P>Two weeks later, I offer to do the pictures myself. He insisted that he'd do the pictures. He also said he wasn't sure what she wanted. I said he needs to talk to HER about it and reach an agreement on expectations. fizzle thud It never happened.<P>For a month, I avoid any mention of the pictures. One of his complaints about me is "henpecking". (Ha!! He doesn't even know the meaning of the word. If he were henpecked, he'd be hearing about it every day!) Still no pictures. <P>In June when friend asked about the pictures, I tried to remove myself from the middle and told her to talk directly to H. another fizzle thud <P>Last week friend told us she's leaving on the 23rd to visit family overseas for 6 weeks. H said "I'd better get those pictures done" Five days later now, NO pictures! <P>Two weeks ago, H did at least confide in me his "reason" for the delay (in my rampant LBing days I'd probably still be completely in the dark). We've done a number of things over the last three years that were helpful to these friends. H claims that there's only one time he's ever asked for a favor in return. He asked three times for the same thing (borrowing a tall ladder to trim oak trees) and friend cancelled or was a no show each time. This delay in the pictures is evidently their "punishment" and I'm sure the friends are clueless. <BR>---------<BR>So, my description in all this refers primarily to pictures. The underlying zinger is in regard to my perception that he's failing to honor a commitment and my ability to believe what my H says. I want to believe what he says. I don't feel that I can. Those pictures will get done this week even if I have to do them myself. My question is how do I discuss this with H??? in a civilized manner?? I must have a huge log in my eye. I'm clueless.<BR>

I have tried and tried to follow along with this thread.......I must be brain dead or something but it just is impossible for me to follow. I'm sure it would help to get the book but at this point I am even leary of that.<P>I guess I am a "boundary resistant" person too. <P>I would like to rejoin the forum on a regular basis because I miss everyone's fellowship but I think I'll wait until you finish with this study.<P>Mike is doing well since his surgery. He will be out of work for 2 months so it is giving us alot of time together. We have begun to study the "Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman.<P>Blessings to all,<BR>Love, Taj

Hi Taj!!! Sure have missed you! Glad that Mike is doing well. Studying the 5 love languages sounds wonderful. Share with us as you learn!

Hi Lonesome, glad you provided a scenario. <P>Here is the catch to the control thing. As long as we are willing to be responsible for our husbands and cover for them so that they experience no consequences, they are gonna let it all ride.<P>In the process of the log removal, then, you have become aware that H perceives you as nagging (henpecking) and you have made a great effort to change that behavior, which already has shown to be a baby step progress in that he has shared with you his reasoning, right or wrong (not ours to judge) for his behavior. You made a positive step to remove yourself from the middle in redirecting your friend to your husband since he said he would do this. <P>Check yourself on why you feel you need to jump in and do this thing since he said he would take care of it....you know they do have those 24 hours places and he just might take it all the way down the wire...<P>Of course if he doesn't do it, you will feel bad that your friend has been disappointed by the man of your life, but that is not a reflection on you. If the friend leaves for vacation minus pictures, you might be able to say to him something about how you felt during that time, the anxiety, stress or whatever and ask him for ideas on how to not to hook in to those type of situations. The question is how are you going to place a boundary on your feelings so that the anger that probably should come from your friend towards your husband does not land in your lap, thus freeing you to love him with all his warts.<P>Does that make sense?

I vote for the boundary resistant person.

Okay, one last question re boundary resistant spouse- The actual chapter is titled Resolving Conflict with a Boundary Resistant Spouse and the chapter before it identifies 6 kinds of conflict. Do we need to run through those first?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SueB:<BR>Here is the catch to the control thing. As long as we are willing to be responsible for our husbands and cover for them so that they experience no consequences, they are gonna let it all ride.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you SueB. I'm trying to change and I don't know how. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Check yourself on why you feel you need to jump in and do this thing since he said he would take care of it....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I feel the responsibility is partially mine. To thicken the plot, my friend did approach my H first, and he said he'd think about it. My friend then asked me, and I said yes, I'm sure H will do it. H feels manipulated by the friend, and frankly I agree. These boundary lessons will come in handy with friends too! But still, the commitment was made, and I expected H to honor it. <P>Now I have a new scenario. Another friend asked H directly for some photos of his antiques he wishes to sell. H said yes. I feel in my bones that the same song different verse is going to be playing soon. He already has a project on his desk from last week that should have been done by now -- one that he agreed to do. I try to be understanding of his "artist boundaries". I understand that creativity cannot always be summoned on demand. Maybe this is another log in my eye, but I truly feel that he carries it too far and he's just using the "I'm an artist" routine as an excuse for unacceptable behavior. <P>But enough about him. I anticipate that responses to my dilemma will involve defining what my boundaries are. I expect my financial responsibilities to be 50%. It's the same boundary I've had for a long time. In January I came to the realization that he has no intention (or perhaps the capability) of contributing his 50%. At that time I decided, ok H, you keep earning your 20% of what we need, and I'll just have to increase my 50% to 80%. I'm not really happy with this. What do I do? My H seems to have impenetrable defenses against all attempts at setting boundaries.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SueB:<BR>...chapter before it identifies 6 kinds of conflict. Do we need to run through those first?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes yes yes! Maybe a new thread is in order. This message board might have boundaries we don't even know about if this thread gets much bigger. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To thicken the plot, my friend did approach my H first, and he said he'd think about it. My friend then asked me, and I said yes, I'm sure H will do it. H feels manipulated by the friend, and frankly I agree. These boundary lessons will come in handy with friends too! But still, the commitment was made, and I expected H to honor it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OKay, new lightbulb dawns then....hubby did not agree to this...you agreed to this for him..ergo you stepped on his boundary to accept or not accept to do something. In light of this, perhaps going to him and confessing this realization that you overstepped his line and that you can understand his feeling angry about that, that you would like his forgiveness and in light of you being the one who got them into this predicament would he prefer you to take responsibility for it rather than it having been dumped on his shoulders? It sounds like your expectations for your hubby is that you made an agreement for him and then expect him to honor what you accepted for him...do you see it? <P>And most definitely as you learn more about boundaries, you will see examples of them all over the place.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now I have a new scenario. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For awhile, you may have to look at things in terms of whose problem is it. We all carry excess baggage, whether it is emotional, etc. For a while, I had to look at things, decide whose it was and then tell my self "not my bag" and then let it sit. You are responsible for your feelings, actions, responses, not his...! So if this scenario runs the same course, so be it. You still be the loving wife, redirecting to him what is his, etc. Your responses are to be caring, supportive but do not require you to assume responsibility for them. Does that make sense?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I anticipate that responses to my dilemma will involve defining what my boundaries are. I expect my financial responsibilities to be 50%. It's the same boundary I've had for a long time. In January I came to the realization that he has no intention (or perhaps the capability) of contributing his 50%. At that time I decided, ok H, you keep earning your 20% of what we need, and I'll just have to increase my 50% to 80%. I'm not really happy with<BR>this. What do I do? My H seems to have impenetrable defenses against all attempts at setting boundaries.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One of the earlier examples showed a couple in financial trouble. She ended up getting a financial counselor involved and that way hubby could not avoid seeing where they were at financially and he had to be accountable to the financial counselor. <P>In my own situation, I asked for all the credit cards so that he/we could not charge. I set up a budget with his reluctant participation and we are following it and it is cramping his style big time. I had mentioned a financial counselor to him and he was so resistive to that option that he feels this one is less threatening or perhaps he thinks that I will cave in or something...at least for now, as soon as the pennies come in, they go out. <P>Since financial security is usually one of the woman's emotional needs on Harley's list, I would be tempted to figure out what it takes for the basics, roof over head, electricity, water, food, cost of gas to work and the rest is not an option for anything....no more plants, no more film, etc.... think that would get his attention? The clue you write is that you are not happy about it. Since you are not in control of what he does or doesn't do, what can you do so that you feel some peace in the interim? Scripture is pretty clear that the husband has the responsibility to provide for the family, but in your case he is not. You can write the creditors and explain the fiancial difficulties and work out a tentative plan. <BR>When I get a new job that isn't in my original budget, half goes towards chopping the debt down, the other half is now going into an emergency fund, so that if the car breaks down, I don't have to fix it by putting it on a credit card. My H, on the other hand, sees the same money as free to spend since it wasn't budgeted. I now can say to him calmly and without emotion, "Honey, you gave me the authority to do the budgeting and I am doing the best I can. You can take over if you like if you are not happy with how I am doing it." Of course he does not want that responsibility...<P>The reality goes back to until they feel the pinch they won't want to do anything about it. My husband's solution originally was for him to get another job that paid more so he wouldn't have to live on a budget. He is now faced with the reality of the few resumes and interviews he has had, that perhaps this will not be as easy as he first thought. In the meantime, I am plugging along.<P>Lets see what everyone else votes to do about the conflict stuff. If you are the only one that wants to know about this, then I can email you the info.

I agree with lonesome heart, we should go over the 6 types of conflict first. Thank you SueB for doing this. I'm hoping this stuff will start sinking in soon. I keep reading and re-reading the posts.

Thanks for the feedback on my convoluted "pictures for a friend" scenario. The pictures are done and delivered (did most of them myself). I left some things out to avoid a novellette, so I apologize if it didn't quite make sense. Anyway, I had a good visit with the friend today and she apologized for causing conflict between H and me. I apologized for getting in the middle and that I should have left it between her and H to hash out the details. If she only knew that she was my practice field for boundary setting! <P>Thank you SueB for the baggage example. It's so appropriate. It's hard to shake the notion that some of my important possessions might reside in his baggage and that I should lug it around anyway. <P>I reread the first page of this post and the following is definitely an area I need to work on:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PR 31:12 She brings him good, not harm,<BR>all the days of her life.<P>...how was I bringing good to my husband if I was telling everyone the bad points of my husband, the weaknesses he had, the bad way he was treating me, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>So... where's the husband passage??? Just half kidding. Over the last two years I've grown so unhappy with my H that I began to say disparaging remarks to my friends about him. I felt that I couldn't keep my hurt feelings to myself anymore. I felt that I spent the first 10 years of my marriage giving him 100% of my faith, love, support, etc ... and wondering when it would be my turn to receive same from him. I suspect I won't even describe my marital problems this way in another month.<P>SueB, I'd be just as happy with the "boundary resistant person" section next. I feel like a slow poke here, but I'll try to catch up. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>SueB, I'd be just as happy with the "boundary resistant person" section next. I<BR>feel like a slow poke here, but I'll try to catch up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is that a hint to hurry up and do something? LOL I apologize ladies, between work and the mad dash this week with the children, I haven't had time to do a whole lot. Sat. we have the company picnic (boring, but an important recreational companionship thing- )and Sunday is our 10 hour drive, get the children back to Mom day. I have Monday and Tuesday off though , so <B>WILL</B> get caught back up!<P>And though you were half joking Lonesome, the husband's part falls in these verses:<P> EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her [26] to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, [27] and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. [28] In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- [30] for we are members of his body. [31] "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." [32] This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. [33] However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.<P>1PE 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. [3] Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. [4] Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. [5] For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, [6] like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.<P> 1PE 3:7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.<P>(This translates out live with your wives in an understanding way- the weaker partner translates out similar to something of great value, like a fine piece of china, the HOPE Diamond, along those lines.)<P> 1PE 3:8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. [9] Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.<P>COL 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.<P>I read and reread these pages myself. Seems to help me keep focused on the goal to honor God and my husband.<P>Thanks for your patience ladies.

SueB, there's no need to apologize for attending to your real life! Just the time you've already put into this thread is a fortunate thing for me and others as well. <P>I'm trying to re-read a page of this thread each day. I hope some of the passages can be rehashed a bit while SueB finds time to move onto the next section. Here's the next piece of this thread that caught my attention. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Rule of Honesty<P>Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.<P>---------------------------------------------In breaking this down further Harley identifies 5 components to this rule and point #5 states:<P>COMPLETE HONESTY: Do not leave your spouse with a false impression about your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, or plans for the future. Do not deliberately keep personal information from your spouse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Two weeks ago I would have said, "this is what my H needs to work on!" I can still say that, but now I realize the buck starts with me. My H is very good at keeping his feelings hidden. Instead of blaming him, I now realize that he needs to feel comfortable enough to say anything to me. Am I on the right track ladies? <P>Now, perhaps I can present a basic scenario that I can describe succinctly. <P><B>Problem</B> I'd like to set a boundary that involves changing my kitchen responsibilities from 90% to 50%. <P><B>Response</B>In my eyes, the kitchen is a separate account from anything else. Mowing the lawn, trimming the trees, mulching the beds, vacumming -- none of that counts towards the kitchen. Ultimately, H wants nothing to do with it. He wants his involvement to be making coffee (which he does every day) and the eating of food and nothing more. My "progress" in this area is that he now does the dishes maybe once a month, and fixes maybe one dinner every other week. That would be fine if we ate just once a week! <P>When we first got married, I did 100% in the kitchen the first couple of weeks. I wondered how long the dishes would stack up before he'd "take his turn." Every single dish, pan, and utensil was dirty after a while, and he didn't seem to notice! I began the decade-long pattern of bad problem solving abilities by doing the dishes. <P>When we moved a few years ago, I decided to stop cooking. Takeout fast food and restaurants for three years. It was a significant factor in our financial deterioration (we're on the verge of bankruptcy now). Now we're back to the way things were before. Sometimes after cooking five days in a row, I'll simply say or do nothing about dinner. I figure, if he's hungry, he'll say something! He's getting better about fixing me something, but in the past he has literally gone to bed hungry in order to avoid mentioning dinner. (Sue, would you say I need the chapter on boundary resistant people?). He can be so stubborn! <P><B>changed response</B> Help me out here ladies. Underlying issues that bother me: why does he allow himself to be so dependent on me? In addition, I often feel that he has an attitude that 5 minutes of his time is worth more than an hour of my time, or that anything he does is important while anything I do is fluff. <P><BR>

Oops. I did a double post<BR><p>[This message has been edited by lonesome heart (edited August 18, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mowing the lawn, trimming the trees, mulching the beds, vacumming -- none of that counts towards the kitchen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does that mean you each are already doing your 50% in these areas or does it mean it doesn't count 'cause he likes doing these things? <P>Just got home from one of my many jobs. Gave my notice today...though he wants me to consider remaining for database management, special projects, jazz like that, so need to pray about it. I want you to all know what a struggle it is for me to stick up for myself, can fight the world for anyone else, but when it comes to me, I just anguish about it.<BR>Part of it is my kid stuff/inerrant messages that I am battling with the truth, but it was so hard to tell this man what I was thinking feeling, etc. and how I would have liked things to be different. I so very childishly wanted to yell at him that he was as controlling as my hubby and I have to learn to live with him but I sure didn't have to put up with this man's garbage! I didn't say anything like that though, thank the Lord. My husband has watched me anquish over these things, trying to think them through as to what exactly I wanted to say to this man. He even offered to talk to him for me, but I was able to tell him that I had to learn to do this because he and this man are very similar even though my hubby doesn't see it and if I could learn to be assertive with this man instead of "confrontive" then perhaps I could learn how to share with my hubby in ways that he wouldn't be so defensive about. He didn't get mad at me, just felt bad that I was so stressed and tearful about it all. <P>Anyway, I have to have some coffee and breathe a bit and maybe even shed some stress reducing tears and then I will ponder on your question Lonesome...I sent you email to the first address you sent me.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited August 18, 2000).]

<B>6 kinds of conflict</B><P>The purpose of identifying the different types of conflict is so that you may be better equipped to find a solution acceptable to the both of you and to the relationship as well.<P>The 6 kinds of conflict that we will be looking at are the following:<P>Sin of One Spouse<BR>Immaturity ot borkenness of One Person<BR>Hurt Feelings that are No One's Fault<BR>Conflicting Desires<BR>Desires of One Person verses the Needs of the Relationship<BR>Known verses Unknown Problems<P>That will have to wet your whistle until I get a bit more time...<P><BR>Lonesome, been thinking about your kitchen issue. Are the kitchen tasks something you dislike to do and this is why you want a great division of responsibility in this area? You mentioned that you have done the not fix anything to eat and the guy will go hungry rather than fix himself something to eat. How long do you think he would go without before he caved in? In the heatwave of your area right now, maybe you should settle for a peanut butter and banana sandwich and a jug of water anyway in the evenings! Do you have a freezer? I don't do this as much any more, but I used to shop once a month and then come home and cook it all up and throw everything in the freezer in proportions so that it wasn't a big deal to cook the meal on my work days. The other thing I did for awhile was box up a lot of my dishes so that you had to wash something rather than keep grabbing clean dishes out of the cupboard. Let me read more on the conflict stuff and think more on how to balance role stuff like this and see if anything pops up in my brain. I guess I am just brain dead tonight. Sorry my sister. Anyone else deal with this kind of issue at their house?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Anyone else deal with this kind of issue at their house<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not at mine. It is a given, the house and all household duties are mine. H's chores are those relating to the barn, heavy machinery (like the big mower), weedeating. I think that because H and I both grew up in households where the wife did not work outside the home, we saw our mothers tending to all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, etc. so we both feel that those things are my job. I do help outside a lot though, as I enjoy being outside and I love to garden. H likes to enjoy my gardens. One major thing that is different in our marriage as opposed to our parents' marriages is that I work fulltime outside the home - with a long commute. I stopped asking H for any help with household stuff many years ago, and it doesn't bother me that he doesn't help. The only thing that really does bother me is when he tracks mud or grease in the house right after I've mopped. GRRRRRR Oh, and when we have a barbeque and I spend all day cooking, and he takes the compliments and credit for it. <P>On thing that has been turned to the good out of the 'David in CA trial' is he actually thanked me for all the household work and cooking I do. He said after living out there with a couple guys he sees he owes me an apology for not appreciating what I do around here. Wow was I taken aback when he said that! Almost every night when I talk to him he is griping about how filthy the trailer is they are staying in and no one will clean it up, he is the only one who cooks (from the sounds of it, I wouldn't want to eat anything he is cooking - ick) and no one appreciated anything he does around there. Teeheehee. Do you know how hard I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying <B>SEE HOW IT FEELS TO BE UNAPPRECIATED AND TAKEN FOR GRANTED</B>. It is a wonder that I still have a tongue...... <P><p>[This message has been edited by Alcoholic's Wife (edited August 19, 2000).]

GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.<P>What the evil one intended for harm, the separation of what God put together, will backfire. Marriages are destroyed not so much on the big issues, but on the multitude of small ones that compound and overwhelm us, the bitter root that grows into discontent and discord.<P>As you guard your tongue Rootbeer, I see God blessing you. Would your husband have appreciated you had he not gone to California? Would you have had the opportunity to minister to and empathize with him if he had not had an opportunity to be responsible for some of these things he is now doing? As you bite your tongue to not resort to the Now do you...statements are you shedding tears of joy and letting him know how much those words mean to you? Guys don't know what we want to hear and we let pride get in the way of telling them how they can love us.<P>Hallelujah Father, we see you working in David and Rootbeer's marriage and we praise you for the victories! Continue to guard Rootbeer's mouth and make her sensitive to her husband as he continues to be worn down and readied for your leading. Continue to whisper in hsiear father, thank you for your gentleness and love, for your steadfastness in hearing our cries in spite of our impatience in waitng for your perfect timing. Continue to teach and mold all of us Father as we recognize your hand in our lives. IJN, Amen.