Sheryl, thank you for sharing your thoughts on your very special birthday. What a crushing blow, to be in the throes of POPW only to have your H violate his sacred wedding vows. I've known my H for 15 years, and that too is a long time to try and then be a failure. At this point though, I'm not really sure I've failed. All my life I've held faith in high regard, but in a sort of cosmic, generic sense. Now I turn to scriptures and welcome the messages I find there. Only through my difficulties have I found such blessings. I agree with SLW that it's ok to not have it all figured out. I heard a similar message on Christian radio this morning. <p>So what do I do? I get a copy of Living with the Passive Aggressive Male to try and figure out my H some more. LOL Actually, it's for myself as much as it is for him. I tolerated my H's behavior for a long time, feeling afraid to speak truth to him. In viewing my own contributions to the dysfunction, I see my own fear of intimacy. My family tends to be quiet about things that are less than perfect, and I find myself fulfilling a "role" that I was assigned a long time ago. In complaining about my H's behavior as an obstacle to intimacy, I've managed to overlook barriers of my own making. Live, learn, and move forward.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have thought too, if I just prayed hard enough or had enough faith, the relationship would be better - but it is made up of two people and we can't control the other person and the choices they make. Facing a failed marriage makes us feel like our faith failed - and keeps us in denial for a long time before we face the reality. Don't forget that God's relationship to Israel is broken also - in a sense he divorced Israel because of their stubborn and idolatrous ways. Was it because He was not loving enough, didn't have enough faith, or fell short Himself somehow? Of course, not!
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Thank you SLW.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>LH: You can let go of your guilt now. <hr></blockquote>
But Karenna, there's GLUE on it! Really sticky glue! LOL I'm working on it. I have found quite a bit of peace through prayer this year. I handed in my heart every day for months for one more layer of anger and resentment to be washed away. I've had tremendous difficulty in my occupation, which made me question the choice I made four+ years ago. I'm still in a quandry about that. H put my self confidence through such a shredder. I have faith that I'll figure out what my talents are, preferably in this lifetime. I'm having some success with hearing yes and no answers, which is an improvement from last year. <p>Latest update with H: he returned my counselor's phone call from yesterday. She was concerned about him being suicidal (which he always adamantly denies with his words, but his actions and his artwork send a different message). He assured her that he's not suicidal, and she didn't see any immediate red flags in his responses. I'm relieved about that and so is my counselor. As far as I know, he's looking for a place of his own, and was going to make the phone call today to seek counselling at the veteran center. <p>I pray that my H will find people who reach out to him, and that my H will accept their good will. I trust in the Lord to protect him from harm and provide for his needs. All prayers on his behalf are greatly appreciated.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So what do I do? I get a copy of Living with the Passive Aggressive Male to try and figure out my H some more. LOL Actually, it's for myself as much as it is for him <hr></blockquote><p>It helps you to see the reality. I know I minimized my situation: "Oh, it isn't that bad, I'm probably expecting too much, too much of a complainer, not loving enough, don't communicate clearly enough (I really believed this, although I'm very articulate and others have no problem understanding me!), am not gentle enough, too demanding, get too easily frustrated..." The book showed me the reality of my situation in black and white. Yes, there really IS a problem. It is not just me being an impatient, demanding, angry woman. There are real reasons for the frustration and anger (broken promises, "forgetfulness", withdrawal, procrastination, subtle hositility, etc"). Anyway, that is just the way the book has been helpful for me. It keeps reminding me that these are problems that have to be faced. <p>Like you, I have contributing behaviors which have kept the "dance" going. That is my focus. However, changing those does not guarantee the other person will change. They have a part, too. And this is where you must be kind and respectful to yourself, LH. I know it is easy to "feel" for them, but it doesn't really help them. It isn't our job to carry them (it isn't even possible in the long run unless you want to break your health and your soul in trying). Only carry what is yours and leave the rest to God and your husband (and others God puts in his life to help him). Let him go. You are not being irresponsible by doing that - you are being responsible and respectful. God is our guide - He doesn't carry us and He lets us go to follow our bad ways if we are stubborn enough to choose it (think about the father who let the prodigal son go and squander all he had - it was the only way to learn).
I'll pray for him also, as I do for my own husband.

Oh can I hear you two and relate!!<p>I too had a H on suicide/not suicide watch -- the words said no, but the actions said yes. <p>And I agree about minimizing the situation... oh yes, and the "dance" as well! <p>Harriet Lerner has been mentioned on these boards many times before. She writes "Dance" books -- and I have The Dance of Anger in my collection of self-help books. I've always been a reader -- both Christian and secular -- and Lerner has helped me a lot, as well as Kay Arther's Lord, Heal my Hurts and Gary Zukov's Seat of the Soul. So many books, so much to impliment, so daunting at times!! <p>Yes, after 20 years of marriage *I* sure felt like a failure. Part of the reason was that I felt like a failure long before, and the marriage was the ONLY thing I'd succeeded at! To have it end only proved what I'd felt about myself -- A TOTAL FAILURE. I had nothing left. Maybe that's why I married so quickly again, eager to prove in the only way I could that I was not a failure. <p>But back to the dance -- it continues until someone steps off the dance floor and says "Enough." But... like the dysfuntional family we read so much about, when the "functioning" partner/parent/child stops the dance, the whole axis goes off balance. The dysfunction is broken, but there are choices about how to deal with the now-healthy situation. Often, the hub (the truly dysfunctional one - the alcoholic, the abuser, etc.) cannot function and he/she lashes out and/or changes to the healthy behaviors. It can be downright abusive even if it didn't feel like it before...<p>Gosh, the answer, I'm afraid, is so complex.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I too had a H on suicide/not suicide watch -- the words said no, but the actions said yes. <hr></blockquote><p>Oh Sheryl, thank you for sharing this with me. Do you think he was really suicidal? Typically, when I see a difference between words and actions, I believe the actions. This is why I have such concern for my H. My C agreed with me that I had reason for concern, which is why she called him at work. At the time we thought H was a no show at work, she was advising me to call the sheriff, have H rounded up and evaluated. <p>Today I went to that job, and the boss raked me over the coals for things my C did. I was so rattled by her words that I didn't realize at the time she was getting mad at me for something someone else did. My H has been there almost two years and this is the first time boss has ever taken a phone message for my H. She delivered C's first message. H didn't return the call. <p>C called again the next day. It's a ticklish situation because C has an obligation to be discreet in identifying herself and she is not allowed to reveal to others that she's a counselor. The workplace is very spread out and boss doesn't drop what she's doing to spend 20 minutes delivering a phone message. <p>Today boss yelled at me for the 20 minutes wasted on a phone call with C. She said C was very unprofessional, that "those people" are messed up themselves, that C was acting like a truant officer, that C was insinuating that boss didn't deliver the messages and boss doesn't like being called a liar. Boss told C that she delivered the message, and she doesn't like any implication that she didn't, and she leaves it up to her employees to return their calls or not. <p>Today I told my boss that C isn't allowed to identify herself as a counselor. I told her that she was concerned about H being suicidal. Boss doesn't think H is suicidal, she thinks he is fine, and she doesn't understand why I don't just divorce H right now and be done with it. She thinks I'm just stringing things along by wanting a separation at this time instead of heading straight for divorce. <p>I asked boss if she knows what the appropriate response is when someone appears to be suicidal. She said she doesn't have time for this and ended the conversation. She wants people to show up for work and leave their personal lives at home. That's what I do 99% of the time. All this time I've considered my boss to be someone who's kinda crusty on the outside with a big heart on the inside. It's a farming family with a long history of being good to their employees. I am stunned, shocked and hurt by her words today. <p>H and I crossed paths briefly today. No phone call to the vet center yet. He promises he'll do it tomorrow. I know from talking with C on the phone yesterday that H did return the call eventually. H didn't say a word about it today. C told me that H adamantly denies that he's suicidal. She heard him express anger, which is actually a good thing since utter despair or unexplained euphoria would be red flags. From all appearances, it seems I sent out a false alarm, but I continue to wonder if H is withholding the truth about his feelings. Should I stop wondering, stop being concerned about him and move to "no contact" with H?

LH,
It sounds like you are very concerned about your husband and maybe he likes it that way. If you do all the worrying, he doesn't have to be concerned about anything. I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but I found it to be true in my case. As long as I was carrying all the worry and concern about something, it allowed my H. to not care about anything (which is exactly what he wanted). <p>I'm sure it is complicated with a H. who may at least appear to be suicidal. I know you feel very responsible for his health and safety. But it makes me think this keeps the dynamics between the two of you the same. You worrying and concerned about him, he acting withdrawn, irresponsible (not showing up for work) and indifferent. <p>Whose counselor is this? yours? It just seems you keep being dragged into the middle of things. There is a way to be empathetic and concerned without always being dragged into the middle to take care of him. It may mean no contact. That doesn't mean you don't care. It just means you are trying to establish a more healthy way of relating. I can't tell you what your exact actions should be, I just know you have to step out of this dance. Stepping out of the dance does not mean you don't care.

Hi LH,<p>You wonder if my ex was truly suicidal -- now, this is just my opinion, and I want you to temper it with the knowledge that I have a son who tried to hang himself at eight years old -- yes, I took the threat VERY seriously because he was VERY DEPRESSED and I had *no doubt* he would follow through with it if he got the courage up. <p>Listen, he WOULD NOT get help while I was there... the DANCE continued until I left him. I think, like Sifted Like Wheat says, that you have to get off the dance floor. <p>I still cared about my ex, and the LAST thing I wanted was for him to die. But bottom line, I COULDN'T SAVE HIM. <p>I don't know if "no contact" is the route you want to take right now or not. I can tell you that my ex STILL gets out the "poor me" card and plays it from time to time. For a while, I played into his hands like I had all along... reverting to asking him how I could help him, etc. It finally got to the point where I could not do it anymore, because it simply hurt me too much, and it NEVER CHANGED. So, my therapist told me to picture him holding a big violin and crying "Woe is me" whenever I hear his voice. This does NOT MEAN I don't care about his welfare, I do. But it is not MY RESPONSIBILITY to make sure he saves himself - it is HIS.<p>By the way, I am sick about the counselor/boss encounter you had today. That stinks. We've all struggled through our day to day lives as these betrayals slapped us silly, and most of us have been lucky, in that our employers understood. I wish I had an answer for you on that one. All I can say is "How Insensitive"...<p>I hope this helps... but remember... the difference NOW is that I am married to someone else. When I was in YOUR SHOES, I spun myself silly trying to save this man. Even then, it wasn't up to me, it was his dance. I chose to get off the floor and go somewhere else to dance.

Thank SLW and Sheryl for the quick replies. Definitely a shaky day. My boss's behavior today really caught me off guard and has me off balance. H is sleeping in his car and coming down with a cold. I'm really trying to get off the dance floor, but it's hard to care for him and at the same time stand back while he suffers.

You know what, LH? I hear you, I really do!!<p>David (that's my ex) honestly could look at me in a way that made me feel sorry for him. He was the most pathetic man at times, and Lord knows I tried to let him "own his problems" and face the consequences for his actions. Trouble was, when he fell, he dragged me with him. So, I continued to help him, care for him, and worry about him. Even at the end, while we were supposidly trying and I would wake up in the middle of the night and he'd be gone, I would pray he wouldn't get hurt or do something stupid. I knew he was going to bars and getting lap dances and meeting women, so I was very worried he'd just sleep with someone without protection because "he wasn't in his right mind"... but he "couldn't help it" because he was so depressed. <p>I read about your H sleeping in his car with a cold and I hear the deep concern in your voice. Maybe you feel like it's your fault he's there, alone. I have soooooooooo been there, LH. Yes, I have. <p>So... what to do?... I think you should do this: If something he does directly affects you, then help. If it doesn't, then don't help him. For example, he's sleeping in his car -- it doesn't affect you. His cold -- will that affect you? Will you be the one to pay the bill if he gets pnemonia? Then help. If you won't (I'm assuming he's VA) then don't help him. He must pay the price for not taking care. It's a beginning anyway... how does that sound?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but it's hard to care for him and at the same time stand back while he suffers. <hr></blockquote><p>LH, does your husband care for you as much as you care for him? Is his care shown by action? Is he as concerned for you? If not, then you have a very one-sided relationship, where your role is just to take care of him. That is not how it should be. Think about it. And remember, he is a grown man. I don't think it is your life-long responsibility to carry him through life.

Sheryl and SLW,
You have helped me so much! Thank you thank you! Sheryl, I like your suggestion. SLW, our counselor made the same observation about our relationship being very lopsided. The result is one person being drained with no source of replenishment. <p>Today was a much better day. I feel majorly blessed. I am blessed by the wonderful support here in this very thread. I am further blessed by a miracle of safety. I've mentioned several times how I pray for my H's safety every time he drives. Well, I pray for my own safety too. Yesterday on the highway, I heard and felt a thump thump thump. I braced myself, thinking I'm getting a blowout. The moment passed. I'm still on the road. I checked the rear view mirror to see if something was on the road. Nothing I could see. I got home, checked things out and saw nothing unusual. <p>This morning I'm back on the highway going to work. It's a beautiful day, I have the window rolled down. What's that pht pht pht sound? I get to work and what do I see but a BIG piece of my treads missing! From a Firestone tire!!! Here I've just driven on a highway with NO tread on part of my tire. That part must've been on the ground yesterday, which is why I didn't see it sooner. At lunch I recruited some prayers from a coworker and headed for the tire store. I arrived without incident. This is nothing short of a miracle. You should've seen that thing. I now have new back tires. After my shaky day yesterday, I get an unmistakable message that I've been protected from a minor, possibly major, disaster. <p>I had another "light bulb" moment this week. For the five years in this house, there's been a lock on the back gate. H had the only key. It's been a minor annoyance to me that in five years he's never had an extra 10 minutes and 2 dollars to make a copy of that key for me. The only thing I asked for when he left the first time was that key. I now have the key. <p>I decided to put it on the pegboard where several other keys are kept. I noticed another ring with keys. I took them in my hand to look at them. hmmmm There was a key similar to the gate key. Gee, it's the same color, size, and, it looks identical! It WAS identical! I had a key to that darn gate all this time. I could kick myself for not seeing it sooner, but instead I'll just be glad that I can see it now. This is exactly what I want happening in my life.. to find the things already within my possession that I don't know about yet. <p>Thanks for hanging in here with me ladies. I'm living proof that even a snail's pace can take you places.

Great post, LH! <p>You are "seeing" God's hand in your life in the little ways He is showing you! You've been wanting Him to speak to you - well He often does it in those ways. Not always giving the answer to our question (at least not right away), but speaking the message He wants you to hear - letting you know He is there, He is in control, He is watching out for you. <p>In the book, Disappointment with God, Yancy says this very thing about Job. When God finally speaks to Job, He doesn't answer Job's many questions directly. Instead He shows Job who He is, and in that sweeping revelation, all was well and Job was satisfied (he no longer needed the answers to his original questions). I'm thankful you have been encouraged. Have a great week-end.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

Sorry, I haven't been here more for you gals lately, but have had a bunch of curves in my obstacle course called life... had to respond to some of the things in this thread.<p>The purpose of POPW is first and foremost that we might become the best wife we can be with God's help. The very first chapter is for us to turn our eyes inward and to reflect how we might better serve, change ourselves, to remove those logs...to be willling to have the Lord remove those things about us or to change things in us....<p>In this process, as a group, we have tackled the issue of boundaries in marriage becuase many of us found that we were trying to overstep our bounds and control things that we were unable to control...just as God has boundaries, we need/needed boundaries.<p>We have learned a bit more about what respect means and how we are not showing respect to our loved ones if we do not set up boundaries, if we continue to accept less than their best as our spouses. <p>This growing process is a tough one, but what I did appreciate about it is that I was also able to affirm myself for those things I did do right, those areas where my heart was in the right place and where I could, with a clean heart, recognize that I not only was not in control of all things, I also was not responsible for all the wrongs in my relationships. <p>I continue to recite 1Cor.13 to remind myself what love is and is not. I continue to assess myself in those difficult situations, to check on my responses, my attitudes, my motivations, but most of all, I continue to be in awe of who my heavenly Father is who loved me in spite of myself and who values me so much that he allowed his son to be sacrificed for me. In light of that, I can be brave enough to be shown any area where I need changes and be given the strength to do it. <p>You cannot kick yourself for the past so much Sheryl. You can go through this book with excitement though as you cherish yourself and this new husband of yours, who will love you enough to answer your questions truthfully and will encourage you to be the best wife you can be with God in the middle of your marriage. <p>I guess more than anything I have felt such responsibiliy to pray for my husband, for the Lord is going to hold him accountable for our marriage as the shepherd/leader. I am learning that I must respect the position God placed my husband in even if my husband does not behave respectfully. And I am also learning that allowing my husband to get away with inappropriate behavior is also not respecting him. <p>I know LH that all that you are going through is scary and sad all at the same time. Your H is going to display many behaviors such as that of suicidal ideology since that worked before in shaping you back up to get off his back so that he did not have to behave responsibly. The responsible, loving thing to do is to do exactly what you are doing, calling him on it... if he becomes angry, the problem is with him, not you. <p>I do know that while my situation is also increasing in intensity, I can still see God making something good of it...for example, one of the things my H now has admitted is that he is not willing to be under the authority of the church body and he quit going to church and bible study...while I went to CA to be with my daughter during the birth of her 3rd child, he met with our bible study leader to "tell him how it is" with us. The thing is I know that God is going to use this manipulation to expose the darkness and I am very excited about it! <p>I feel like a broken record at times, calmly repeating and repeating my boundaries and limitations but I know that God designed marriage for far better than this. Out of hard things though, I know that God has things for me to learn. I just want to be moldable in that learning ...

I'm so glad to hear from you SueB. I should get POPW in my hands again and give it another try. I prayed many of the prayers and know things are better for it. (I know the safety prayer works!) That first chapter really sent me reeling, whatever it said. I've blocked it out. My H abdicated his leadership role in this household and put me there. That must be why I have such a hard time with it. <p>Today was day 10 of him here at the house. I'd really like a weekend of solitude. I have books on fung shei, and I'm ready to do a major decluttering. I've come to realize that my H's clutter has been a longstanding thorn in my side. I used to have a healthier diet too. In the old days, I changed my ways to be more compatible with him. I lowered my standards for neatness and nutrition. It's part of what I want to reclaim. <p>More good news/bad news. H remembered his appointment at the veteran center. He tends to "forget" things he'd rather not do, but I kept my mouth shut when I felt tempted to remind him. So I was thankful/grateful/proud that he remembered on his own. WELL. He went there, and they had no record of him making an appointment, there weren't even any counselors there that day. I'm oh so tempted to rip them a new one. H has a plentiful list of reasons he doesn't want to go there, and they oblige by screwing up his first appointment and giving him one more reason to rail against their ineptitude. I seem to be more angry about it than he is. He's (re)scheduled for next Friday. He's probably glad to be off the hook one more week. It's probably a blessing. Hopefully his housing will be available by then. If not, maybe the cold front will be gone soon and he can sleep in his car again without freezing.

Hello LH,
Boundaries.....oh my! I remember when that was a word I repeated hourly to myself because I really had limp rags instead.
The first chapter of POPW is very hard to understand. I am not good at praying or good at keeping my faith foremost in my daily activities, so I found this introduction very difficult. I had to read the first 3 chapters, then go back for remedial instruction! I am still in remedial class, trying and still not sure I get it.
Try reading a few of the other chapters then go back. It will be easier to 'feel' and understand the basic premise.
Likley I wa also harboring some anger toward h when I read the first chapter. I was so far from caring that the notion of praying for him was incomprehensible.
As for the VA system....sometimes it is hard to get moving in the right direction. Tell h that he shuold talk with the Patient Advocate if the appt issue is not resolved or happens again. Frustrating as it may sound, if someone takes a day off and has no replacement, the appt is changed and not everyone gets the message. I am very sorry this happened to him. Both of you have worked so hard to get him into therapy and now this?! The Patient Advocates have a lot of power and answer to the Hospital Director. Use that person to help your h if you need to.
Hugs and prayers, cl