I can not say that I have been offended by some of the posts I have read about mothers losing custody, but one thing you must realize is that this is happening all over the world. Courts do rip children from their mothers arms for no reason. I am so sorry if you don't believe me.....but I have done nothing in my life or to my girls that would justify me losing custody. There are many mens groups out there that show and help men fight and win custody. My stbx has info from most of them. They tell you how to lie and manipulate to win custody. My stbx must be one of their biggest supporters and students. <P>Courts are not the same anymore.....they are more actively supporting fathers rights. I am not saying that fathers don't have a right to raise their children....but the key word here is "fathers". My stbx is not a father to our children. He doesn't know how to be one and I don't think that getting custody is going to teach him. <P>I am not trying to be angry here.....I am just sad. Sad to see that people can change so much from someone elses grips. I hope and pray that he wakes up and realizes that fighting and winning custody of our girls will simply make them dislike him even more.<P>Sorry, just had to get that off of my chest.<P>

Mental,<P>I have to agree with you. Mothers are more instinctive nurtureres. However in my case my W has ripped my D home to shreads and is living a drug addictcs lifestyle. She is a great mom. Her actions the last few months do not show that. I could go on with specifics..just know that taking sole custody is the last thibg I want to do. I want my family whole again. I miss my W terribly, and right now ALL of her frinds and relatives do not think she is capable enough to to be the main caregiver. Hell I have the more stable enviroment for D to live in.<P>I feel for you as you are the better caregiver, I hope your H doesn't get away with his manipulation..I'll be praying for you.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

I apologize to all of you who have read this. I don't know what has gotten into me. I am so sorry, I just am so frustrated and in so much pain that I just went off. Sorry

Mental,<P>Don't beat yourself up...You have very valid points.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Nancy,<BR>Do NOT apologize for needing to vent. What you said is true, it is happening. And it is sad that good mothers are losing their kids because their H's are being spiteful (which I believe your H is). <P>I am praying that he doesn't get away with this. Stay strong!<P>Prayers,<BR>Mitzi

Mental,<P>I know you are losing your children for no good reason. I have no doubt that you are a good mother and your children should be with you. I can't imagine the pain you are in. I think it also depends on the state you live in. I know in my state, the children stay with the mother unless there are severe problems with her. However, I know that is not the case with you. I think your H has manipulated the system. I do think your's is an extreme case. Is it definite that you will not keep your girls? Keep your spirits up, I do think he will tire of having them down the road.<P>AD

I do agree that mine is an extreme case. Although it seems that my whole D has been quite an extreme case. Everything is being given to him. He is a great manipulator. Claims poverty in court in Nov. Gets two of our cars....his attorney claims his bills are more than he makes...then stbx goes out and buys 800.00 worth of electronic equipment and jets off the Vegas a couple weeks ago. Seems poor to me.....then claims to the evaluator that he is financially better able to care for kids.....but then in the next breath tells her how poor he is. I guess the PHD title must mean "pretty horrendously dumb".<BR>

Mental,<P>Are you keeping the house or do you have to sell? My lawyer told me me that the kids usually stay with the parent in the home.<P>I pray that you don't lose the kids, but I think they will soon come home if you do as I don't think your stbx will want the kids to ruin his "honeymoon." I imagine he will get sick of them real soon and send them back to you.<P>Hang in there and God Bless.<P>p.s. Don't warry about offending anyone. What everybody has gone through here, no one should be offended by a few words.<P>God Bless<P>Bob

Nancy, <P>There does seem to be a movement in our justice system to award custody to fathers, as opposed to mothers, if the fathers want them. I don't know why that is, but it is happening.<P>Please post as you need to post, and don't worry about others feelings right now. It is sometimes painful to read your post, but - you need the support much more, than we need to avoid the pain.<P>What you are losing is not only the legal and physical rights to your children, but to a mother - it is much more. You are losing your identity, an identity that you spent your entire life to groom to be, the right to mother. <P>But, even though that happens, something else happens down the road. You realize with the small opportunities to influence, as a result of losing custody, you learn to use those opportunities to their fullest.<P>Although I believe that in my children's sake, they would have fared much better in the world if this had not happened to them - I know that they got a more passionate and determined mother, a mother that was desperate for the moments with her children - to give them what she thought was the most important. <P>I do look back, and I see how my life has influenced theirs, even with all the barriers. <P>It is a tough situation to go through, definitely, and senseless. But, it isn't completely hopeless. <P>God Bless You,<BR>TNT

Nancy,<P>Good mothers lose their kids...<BR>Good fathers lose their kids...<P>You are in the first category!<BR>I feel so bad for you...<BR>...I too will be going to court this coming Yuesday to find out if my W will put up a custody battle for my kids as she will have left us(me and the kids) 6 months + 1 day ago.<P>I know she (in her way) still loves them...<BR>I know your H (in his way) still loves them...<P>There is always a better choice (rarely is it a 50/50 decision)... and in your case <B>you are the better parent</B>.<P>Why the courts don't see that the betrayer is just showing a <B>selfish</B> form of behavior that... in and of itself is the <B>wrong</B> influence on the children... is beyond me. I was told by my attorney that 25+ years ago, an adulterer would automatically lose the kids(and most other things as well). Why did that change? Has society become so accepting of adultery/infidelity?<P>It is a <B>very</B> sad legal system we live in.<P>Do keep documenting every that happens to your kids... time can change your <P>I'm praying for you so much... <P>I do advocated to some... like me... aid from father's rights groups... <B>but</B> you are more than accurate in your description of some of these groups... they can be <B>very</B> anti-mother and anti-marriage(to the point of devaluing both!)<BR>I don't believe in "father's rights"...<BR>I don't believe in "mother's rights"...<BR>I believe in <B>children's rights</B>...<BR>...and especially when it comes down to a better CP!<BR>For you Nancy... your children could be losing their rights to you... the better CP!<P>I really pray for you! <P>Jim

Mental,<P>I'm not completly aware of your situation, But just a suggestion; What are the chances of you and your H sharing joint custidy with primary residence changing as the children's needs and cercumstances change? For instance, maybe you and your H could agree that they stay with one parent during the school year, and the other during the summer and holidays. <P>Like I said, I don't know your situation, but I know in our state, it is almast a "winner takes all" situation when it comes to custidy. If you two fight, you have to ask yourself ( and he does too), Is the potential loss worth the potential gain? I'll give you something to think about; in my state (NY), if one parent gets full custidy and then dies, it doesn't mean the other parent gets custidy. It will go to whom ever the custodial parent designates in their will....<P>I guess what I'm saying is think about the welfare of the kids first. They don't really have a say in what is going on in their lives, you do. I know you are hurting, and I believe that you have the best interest of your kids at heart, But maybe there is still room for your H and you to comprimize about custidy. Joint is always better than sole, regardless of where they spend the majority of their time.<P>Just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions........right?<P>PS- talk to your lawyer about putting a clause in the divorce (if it comes to that, I don't know where you are) that niether parent can move more than XX miles away from the other w/o written permission of the other parent. It will at the very least keep you close.<P>Brent

Thank you all for your caring words. I seem to be very emotional tonight. Cried and cried when I read your posts. I am in a horrible situation right now......I go to see a new attorney on Tuesday.....a family law attorney who seems to be more hopeful than me.<P>To Brent: No, you don't know about me.....I know you can't possibly keep up with everyone but, there has been physical and mental abuse to both me and the girls. The girls are very sad with him. He is very angry and sees no problem in "taking" his anger out on them. He simply walked out of our lives and we heard nothing from him for almost 2 weeks. Then after that he talked with the girls one time in over a month. The OW had me arrested for harassing communications and I lost custody of them for 6 weeks. He severed all of my parental rights during that time. No phone calls were accepted and I was denied visitation....not by the courts...by him. When I got them back he abused them. He does not want the girls.....I sometimes wonder even if he loves them. Right now in his life only 3 things matter to him.....the OW....his beer....and most importantly...himself. The girls have shown signs of abuse....neglect....and have become very depressed. I basically have to push them out the door for visitation. I watch the two most important things in my life leave crying....knowing that when they come back they are missing a little more of the "kids" they used to be. They are bitter.....the 9 year old is going on 30. The 7 year old is acting like she is 3. It is sad.

Have you tried Child Protective Services ? If the kids come back in bad shape, you may want to call them so that someone from an official capacity can evaluate them instead of the courts depending on your h's word at the hearing.<P>You may want to consider counseling for the kids to help them through this. I'm not sure that if a problem is found this way, if it would be admissiable in court. Check these out with your lawyer.

Mental<P>I am sorry. Your right, I had no idea how much pain you are going through or your situation. From what you have said I doubt joint custidy is an option.<P>I have a good friend that has helped me a lot through my situation by playing Devil's advocate. It has really helped me see that in my situation anyway, not everything is as clear as I thought it was. I guess that is what I was trying to do for you, but obviously I blew it. I'll try to keep my opinions to my self from now on unless I know the situation better. again - sorry<P>Brent

Nancy,<P>I was praying you'd find a new attorney!<P>It is so important to have one that is on your side and <B>believes</B> you!<P>Going to church soon... will be praying for you! <P>Jim

I must disagree. As a health care professional, I see cases fairly often of admitted drug use, where there is simply a "social service consilt". The courts are very careful not to take away custody unless there is verifiable proof of abuse, neglect, endangerment, drug and/or alcohol abuse. I am sorry, but unless there is some huge, worldwide, behind-the-scenes, set-up, you must look guilty for them to take your children away. I am not commenting on your innocence or guilt...all I am saying is that there MUST be something that sure looks very suspicious. In fact, I believe that the courts are actually erring on the side of caution, to the point that there ARE cases overlooked that end up in death or severe abuse of the child. These are suppose to protect our kids, but often they actually hurt them more. Good luck in your fight.. but it sounds to me like there is something going on that we are not hearing.

Cam,<BR>Sorry, but I beg to differ. I have a good friend who lost custody of her daughter to a very abusive, manipulative man. He had money for a good lawyer and she didn't. The judges reason for giving custody was because she already had 2 other children from a previous marriage. He threatened her and terrified her but the court didn't listen. I was a witness to the abusiveness but they didn't allow witnesses. Good deal, huh? <P>My friend is now living in a stable environment with her new husband, while her daughter is being bounced from home to home because the father will not work. He is an abusive alcoholic and the child's mother is not. <P>I ask you, does that seem fair to the child????? No, not one bit!!

Rachael,<P>Mental is not losing custody because of a social services issue, or any other reason of the sort.<P>It is a custody case of two parents wanting the right to parent their children. This custody case is more about the parents relationship being projected on the children, vs. a "referral" to social services for a neglect or abuse or unfit case. Both parents are fit, but one has seemed to be able to persuade the guardian at litem (a person who is a non-educated professional) that he would parent better than the other.<P>Custody cases have generally nothing to do about being fit. It has to do with resources, and children's wishes.<P>TNT

Cam, maybe you should get a reality check. It is happening....and for no good reasons

Well, I am here to tell you that good parents lose their children often!! It it obvious in some cases that Health Care Professionals, sometimes... are wrong in their judgement. <P>I am friends with a couple who's grandchild was taken away from her parents within an hour of their baby dying from SIDS... The Social Services went straight to the grandparents house to "Steal" the child, illegally, because a "Health Care Professional" assumed the baby that died from SIDS was sexually abused. <P>The Medical Examiner made it 100% clear the the Baby only had diaper rash and was NEVER sexually abused and had died from SIDS.... They wouldn't even let the parents see the child before they transported her to the medical examiners. <P>Instead, they, the parents were taken to the police station and interrigated seperately... both confused by the doctors statement to them that the child had been sexually abused and wondering... who would do that to their baby... and all the while suffering the loss of this child!!! To make matters worse, the police, while questioning each parent, would tell one and then the other, the the other had confessed to abuse. What a Crock of Sh**! <P>They still... have not gotten their child back in their custody and are still fighting the state, the Doctors and Social Services because Social Services will NOT back down due to their embarassment and insistance and illegalness of their taking the other child out of the home without evidence, other than the quick examination guess of a "Health Care Professional!"<P>Sometimes.... the authorities (Medical Professionals, and I use the word Professionals lightly) can be wrong.. There is too much assumption... too much assumption by too many... and especially TOO MANY with the power to SCREW UP somebodys life forever.......<P>Sorry.. this just TOTALLY upset me....<P>Mental.... I am so so sorry for your suffering.... I pray that things will go the correct way for you..... Lord knows we have too many things going against us that we cannot control.....