Bystander,<P>You know, it's really sad to say, but in the area I live in, enforcing child support is a joke. My aunt's X went several years with out paying a very small amount of child support, and it took her 10 years to get it from him. And, guess what? He was never arrested. <P>

according to Harley:<P>"Simply stated, women leave men when they are neglected. Neglect accounts for almost all of the reasons women leave and divorce men."<P>for a great answer to your question, go to the Marriage Builders main forum page (where all forums are listed - link is at top of this page) and read the article "Why women leave men"....<P>I believe we leave not for money, but because we are fed up...not many believe or subscribe to the 'filling each others' needs' theory, and women, are tired of carrying what they see as too many burdens (ie: housework, child rearing, job out of home, sex goddess, mommy to one and all, step-mom at times, social director, financial advisor, bill payer, quality control of contents of the fridge, etc..), while many (not all) men believe that as long as they bring home an adequate paycheque, they are doing their job...<P>I want to share my ENTIRE life with someone....good and bad, but after being taken for granted, and ignored, not spent time with, and expected to do all around the house alone, I was ready to walk away....<P>lucky for me that my H then had an affair....(sarcasm added)....now i truly feel appreciated and loved.....LOL<P>but I was indeed ready to walk...and not take anything from him either, by the way..I believe in standing on my own 2 feet....<P>but what I viewed as neglect was too much to bear..I am not his mother..I am a life partner....that is what I want...the same love, respect and admiration I receive is what I give...<P>also, in my opinion, it is EASIER to walk away than it is to fix the relationship...leaving is easy...staying is hard....and I have never taken the easy way out of anything before ....so why start now??<P><BR>Dylan<P>

trying...<P>Wow, your post got taken over! I will tell you I agree I see a lot more women leaving and leaving for good. I agree that men for the most part tend to want to go back at some point.<P>I don't know why it happens, but yes a lot of women are giving up their kids, and having affairs. I found that when I came here, I figured I'd talk to a bunch of women but truly the men are not all a bunch of cheaters like I perceived them to be.<P>I feel a great deal of pain for the man whose wife has left him. There must be a logical explanation for this. <P>

Bystander, you are actually saying that YOU believe that women find it easier to file for divorce than to work on their marraige because in the end they will get a nice alimony or child support check! You must have A LOT of money hungry women who marry for money, because I know of NO cases where a women has suggested, implied, or said that she would rather cash a check than work on her marriage. I will agree that the courts are kind to those who need child support, but I would also agree that A LOT of men find it easier to sign a check than to actually be there to CARE and yes that word again NURTURE their children! I also hear a lot of men here who take care of their kids, but I also here of the ones who don't, but take on the responsibility of the OW's child, neglecting their own kids. And as far as someone saying that it's easier to be divorced because LAUNDRY is easier IS a wharped sense of values, AND NO ONE has said that is why it's easier to walk away. Kenneth you took that comment and flew off with it. I or no one here said divorce is so much easier since laundry and dinner is smaller. GEESH, this was meant as a little something that I PERSONALLY have noticed to be true FOR MY SURROUNDINGS and here on this board and it was taken to the 10th degree by a few offended men. Sorry if it offends, but I still stand by my statement. Most men wander back and forth after saying their decision is final, when most women after saying they are leaving usually do so and don't look back. No matter how many statistics you throw out there will ALWAYS be someone with a different statistic if it co-signs the point they are trying to make.

<BR>trying2_4give,<P>You asked why there are more walk away wives, and I've offered a falsifiable hypothesis that our society perversely incents this conduct via biased divorce courts and child custody courts. Your claims to not knowing any such women are not the basis of a valid scientific test. While its certainly possible to test my hypothesis (e.g., a random-assignment, quasi-experimental design changing divorce/custody laws in some states but not others), practically speaking it cannot happen. So I'm left arguing my position based on what I believe, you're right, and an appeal to the morally sick system that is our divorce and custody courts. I already said my position may not be popular - but on the other hand, I am probably right.<P>Mitzi,<P>Again, I personally believe what your husband is doing is wrong. It is wrong for custodial parents to take more than appropriate in child support, and its wrong not to pay an appropriate amount.<P>Anyhow, I guess I've got everyone torqued off at me, so I'll leave this thread unless there are any direct questions.<P>Bystander

Bystander, fine, you stick to your scientific tests to try to understand why women are quicker to leave if thats what you need to get you through your day. As far as being torqued, you sound EXTREMELY torqued that men have to pay child support.

Hi All,<P>Another interesting discussion. I had this discussion with a lady on an airplane about 10 years ago. She quoted the men do better financially and women do worse financially stuff to me. <P>I pointed out to her, that I had never heard of a company providing a raise or a bonus for getting divorced. Further, I don't care how she slices it having two residences is much more expensive than one. <P>She of course "did not believe me". But I just laughed and told her to cite one example of bonuses or pay raises for divorce. There are none.<P>So what is the problem, well as Mitzi says you cannot squeeze blood from a turnip. Also many don't pay the child support. <P>I do agree with Bystander about many things, but still the issues brought up here are more the exceptions. Where the H is not paying the court mandated child support. <P>I'll stay out of the rest of the argument, because while I do believe that the economic bias and child care bias toward men is significant, I am not convinced that because women are the ones asking for the divorce means they wouldn't or didn't try to save marriage.<P>For example, if H has an affair and won't file for divorce and won't leave OW, and the W files, is she bailing because of economic incentive? No, She is bailing because he won't work on the marriage and has an OW on the side.<P>Oh! Well, keep up this discussion. It is interesting.<P>JL

This is getting carried away.<P>All I know is that I wish my wife would give us a chance. Knowing that its harder for W to come back makes me feel worse off than before.<P>Happy?<P>J

<BR>try2_4give,<P>I'm torqued by the injustice against men in divorce courts and custody courts. I'm torqued by the "winner take all" approach that we have adopted in these courts, because it operates on the false assumption that any given man is somehow less nurturant than any given woman. I am torqued that a woman can abuse the system to unilaterally take a man's children away from him, and financially rape him for far more than will ever be needed to raise the children. Do these things always happen? No, of course not. But the fact that they can happen at all is a problem. And the way to fix these perverse incentives is to move towards a default of 50% joint physical custody with no child support money ever changing hands.<P>Its absolutely true that some men don't want their kids half the time, and in that case men should share in the *documented* child expenses. But men who WANT their kids 50% of the time should have the RIGHT to them 50% of the time. That's what equality is about...And how can anyone morally justify arguing against equality?<P>JL,<P>You're right about this being interesting, especially when someone steps in and starts questioning the bogus conventional wisdom that women's standard of living tanks after a divorce. But it does get me in hot water <P>Bystander

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Anyhow, in more general terms, I am truly apalled by a system in which a woman can unilaterally divorce and claim a substantial portion of a man's income for "child support" without ever having to account for so much as a nickel of where the money is spent. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is simply not true. When deciding how much child support should be paind by the non-custodial parent, both parents fill out a financial statement itemizing what their incomes is vs what the expenses are. <P>Women do NOT divorce for financial benefit. They do so because they simply cannot tolerate the conditions of their marriage any longer. I think that the statement that women are not as happy in marriage in general as men is probably accurate. Do they leave because they didn't try? In most case I'd have to say no. They tried, the husbands were so content with their situation they didn't want to change anything to make things better for the wife. By the time the women decide to leave, they have already reached their limit and there's no turning back after that.<P>I think men are slower to commit, and quicker to leave when unhappy. They may then reconsider once they realize what they'd be giving up. Women are quicker to commit (maybe because of the pressure for having a family, the biological clock thing?), slower to leave. After all, the responsibilites of the household (the aforementioned child care, laundry,etc.) usually fall on her shoulders. She doesn't want to shirk her responsibilities. But slowly she becomes unhappy. When her unhappiness crosses the threshold of what she can bear, she leaves. Does she reconsider after realizing what she's giving up? No. Why? What is she giving up? A lifetime of unhappiness?<P>I think the solution is for women to learn a lesson from the men. When it comes to making a commitment, be afraid. Be very afraid. This is a LIFETIME we're talking about. That's a REALLY LONG time! For most of us, it's too late. The commitment has already been made.

My wife is one who represents this..... I had a meeting with her this weekend and i have never met anyone who has a more hardened heart. She has fallen for someone else and there is no going back, no remorse, no feelings what so ever. I was looking in the eyes of someone that has absolutely no need nor want of me.... and I did the laundry. She has a better paying job than I, maybe that's one, she is way more attractive than i maybe that's two... the reasons pile up, I still don't know the real reason other than another man became more intimate, could open her feelings better than I.... don't know. I do know it happens all the time and it's easy.<BR>The funny thing about this so-called maturity that women have or the long term thinking that is involved... how long term is it to know that your "baggage" just got bigger, the stuff that your husband does or does not do will not be so different than the substitutes unless you are not planning to re-marry and live your independant life. Sorry but I still just don't see it. To my mind my wife did not try, she did not tell me her feelings, she just made the decision and went on.... how many studies are out there which depict if the substitutes were all that better.... or more wisdom was used.<BR>Sorry for rambling... still hurt ....<BR>mkn

I am kinda sorry I have to get in on this one. My H left us. He does not want any STUFF as he calls it. He just wants out. I have been a stay at home mom for 14 years. I will be financially worse off than when I was marriad (not divorced yet).<P>I cannot depend on getting married to someone else. I must depend on me and have to worry about being self supportive. <P>Since my H is the one that wants out and makes a good income, I feel it is only right that he help me with college expenses to get a degree so I can be self supportive. I stayed at home while he traveled, worked late ect so he could futher his career, well I need help now.<P>I have agreed to 2 nights a week and every other weekend for visitation. I also said I am flexible and the kids can see him more. Has he taken me up on it? NO!<P>Since he left in Oct, he has not had the kids once for a full weekend. He has had them the longest for 4 hours. He seen them once a week and would take them out to dinner. (He was home for one month kinda in this duration).<P>I am not saying that there not some great Dads out there who deserve custody. But I am not divorcing my H for money. I had to, to protect myself, and for custody because he was going to split the kids up, he only wanted the son. How would that make his girls feel? In a sense I am protecting their feelings for him.<P>I just hope that the statistics are right, and the H does want to come home eventually. I miss ironing his clothes and cooking for him. I did this because I loved him, not because I feel like a slave.<P>

<BR>Truthseeker,<P>I disagree...I have posed a falsifiable hypothesis that at least some of the time women use the biased divorce courts and custody courts for pure financial gain. My argument is that if we eliminate the biases in these courts, then the percentge of women filing for divorce will fall. In any event, even if you're right that women divorce for other reasons, my point that we should remove the biases in the divorce courts and custody courts is still valid.<P>As for filing expense statements, lets hold out the issue of gaming such statements. What I mean is that once a child support award is made, the custodial parent can basically spend the money on anything: booze, cocaine, a new two-seater sports car, a new wardrobe for the OM she was sleeping with, etc. Custodial parents don't have to prove that the money is being spent on the children, and as a result, excess judgments are carried until the children are emancipated. Hence child support is often a form of veiled alimony.<P>Bystander

Dear friends: Call me lazy, but my reasons for not leaving my spouse after 25 years of marriage is because I am too tired to deal with a new person, new habits and as I said in another post, I know my spouse and I have grown comfortable with him. Yes, there are alot of changes we need to make to rebuild our marriage. Plus, in the back of my mind and deep in my heart, I still truly love him. We grew up together and developed bad habits as teenage parents. After trying to negotiate and renegotiate our marriage, I made a full right turn and left the marriage to fend for itself. Not good. After a near disasterous error, we both decided it's time to reevaluate our behavior and take the necessary steps to heal. It has been a rough road, but I believe we will make it. I don't know much about divorce statistics, child custody, but I do know why I chose not to walk away. I can't speak for anyone else because each has their own unique situation that may or may not be repairable. With the exception of abuse of any sort, I believe both individuals should look at their relationship closely to see if they are worth saving. Sometimes we(myself included) are too quick to make rash decisions without thinking things thoroughly and the long term consequences that could affect us and others.<BR>Remember, I am speaking from my experience only and not an authority by any means.

So if money isn't being exchanged to take care of the kids, how are the kids supposed to be taken care of? Let the courts take the money and then go clothes shopping, food shopping, money for extra-curricular activities. Are the women who are left with no other choice but to go through the court system in the first place because Dead Beat Dads won't pay, supposed to TRUST that these men will live up to their responsibility. I don't think so. These deadbeats brought it on themselves to have to be treated like children because they don't want to take care of their responsibility! Now as far as those men who are a part of their childrens lives and expenses, then yes in a perfect world it would be nice for BOTH parents agree on who pays for what so that it equals out. But if one person has proven they can't be depended on, why would you want to risk the chance of NOT being able to trust that they will take their kids best interest at heart. Face it, when their is an OP involved the betrayer is extremely selfish at EVERYONE'S EXPENSE.

Bystander,<P>I have seen far too many instances of custodial parents trying to make ends meet with the little bit of child support that they receive to put any merit to what you are saying. don't forget that in order to keep up with the bills, the custodial parent will most likely have to work which means that they will have to find andd pay for adequate child care to do so. Do you know how much child care costs? At the very least the non-custodial parent should pay for half that amount. Add in food, clothing, and a percentage of the shelter and I don't think you can say that the average award is excessive. These are real expenses. Are there some women who misspend the money? Yes. Some are irresponsible and their children do without. Are most women like that? No. If the shoe was on the other foot, the same would be said about the male custodial parent. <P>I know personally of a case where a woman was asking for more money than she was getting. The judge looked at her expenses and the amount of the award and said "No. You're getting enough to cover your children's expenses" and suggested that she learn to manage her money better.<P>So I don't think the courts in general are as biased as you believe when it comes to awarding money. And it's certainly not an incentive for women to divorce.<P>As far as awarding physical custody of the children goes, I agree, the courts are a little biased there. But that is more for historical reasons. Women have historically been the caregivers. Is that always the case these days? No. But it is most of the time. That is changing slowly. And I think you'll see a shift in the decisions of the courts to reflect the shift in society. The courts will probably always lag behind some.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 13, 2000).]

<BR>trying2_4give,<P>"Deadbeat dads" are largely a myth: See Sanford Braver's book, the one I cited earlier.<P>As for splitting expenses, you raise a valid issue with my proposal. Someone who tries to game the system by not contributing equally should face a custodial and a mandatory child support judgment as a consequence. I'm not against punishing people who refuse to play by the rules here. However, note that my system also carries a significant bludgeon against mothers who refuse to let the fathers have the children 50% of the time: The fathers could then file to have full custody because the *mothers* are abusing the system. As it is, there is basically NO punishment whatsoever for custodial parents who deny NCPs access to the children. My approach would change that: anyone who starts denying the other parent their 50% access would risk losing their OWN 50%. Nice, huh?<P>And really, knowing that you'll HAVE to work it out with the other parent changes it from a "winner take all" battle to the death to a system in which everyone - and especially the children - can win. Its a lot easier to spend money, tally up the receipts, and pay the amount than it is forking over money for some OP's cocaine habit.<P>Look, I know what I'm proposing won't work all the time. I know that some men are creeps who walk away. But we're kidding ourselves when we deny that some women are using the biases in the divorce courts and custody courts to garner a financial windfall. Its morally wrong, and I want to change that.<P>Btw, my gripes about this whole system are because of a child support disaster a friend of mine here on MB is facing. I don't personally have a dig in this fight, but I admit I'm drawn to fighting against injustices.<P>Bystander<BR>

<BR>Truthseeker,<P>You are basing your views on anecdote without scientific merit. I'll just counter your anecdote: I have seen cases where custodial parents are getting many TIMES what they need to raise the children, and are spending this windfall on themselves. Thus, we can argue anecdote tit for tat in perpetuity, but it won't change the facts.<P>Women are incented to divorce because they will, on average, get a windfall in divorce and child support. Maybe most women don't file for these reasons, but the presence of these biases should be eliminated anyhow. Isn't that what equality is about?<P>And if the courts are "lagging" society, then they will be reacting to complaintants such as myself, who believe that a 50% physical custody (with no support money changing hands) is truly the fairest outcome of all.<P>Bystander<BR>

WHAT!!!DEAD BEAT DADS ARE A MYTH!!! You know what, I didn't even bother to continue to read the rest of your statement, because after that statement, I can tell there is NOTHING else that you could EVER say that I would ever want to hear. I truly feel sorry for you and that mythical world you live in! END OF DISCUSSION.

<BR>trying2_4give,<P>Read the editorial reviews yourself:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-reviews/087477862X/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_5/002-5934471-8319405" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ts/book-reviews/087477862X/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_5/002-5934471-8319405</A> <P>See especially the Kirkus Review. Better yet, buy the book and read it yourself.<P>Bystander