Ok, I wanna talk to you. First off I want you to know that I'm living the life you are thinking about leaving your wife for. I'm married to the OM. He left his wife for me and I left my husband for him. I want you to know that the long road through divorce is EXTREMELY painful and if your wife is angry and bitter about your leaving her she could really drag you through the mud. Is your other woman willing to hold your hand through all of that? Another thing that concerns me is the fact that you both live in different states, thus your not able to see each other much. Now every adult knows that when your dating you put your best foot forward. Your on your best behavior and the person dating you has to hope that by the time they finally decide to marry you that they have figured you out well enough to know exactly what your like when your not trying to make an impression. That task is difficult enough when you have daily or weekly contact, it seems almost impossible when you have monthly contact. You hear about what kind of mother she is from her, but have you SEEN what kind of mother she is? Your seriously considering uprooting yourself to another state to basically raise another man's children. Your children are going to get what kind of visitation? It can't be on a weekly basis if your in another state. You have admitted that your wife is a good mom. How do you know that? Well you live with her and she has SHOWN you what kind of a mother she is. Again, the OW has told you what kind of a mother she is. Big difference. Will you some day resent the fact that your raising her children instead of your own? Your going to their conferences, their football games and your helping them with their home work. How will your kids feel? Daddy traded us in for new kids?<P>I'm pointing all of this out so that you can get a clear picture before you make such a decision. This is marriage builders and of course most on this board will push you to stay in your marriage under all circumstances. I think in 99% of all affairs the cheater does still love their spouse. If that's the case I think they need to stay in their marriage and work darn hard for it. I believe in being in a fantasy land in regards to an affair in almost all cases. But, I also know from my own experience that sometimes the second marriage works and it can be good. But, my step kids live close to us and are able to spend a lot of time with their father. My husband and his ex also co-parent very well together so he's involved in their activities. Our daughters are the same age and are best friends and his youngest son worships my son who is 7 years older. In fact, he calls for my son more then he does his father. How would your kids all get along? Also, my husband and I did not live in other states. We lived close together and I saw him with his kids often. I saw him parent, I didn't just hear about it. I saw him everyday and I saw him in all kinds of moods and situations. That clearly gives you an advantage as to making it work or not vs. living in another state. So, I just want to open your eyes a little as to what the "other side" could be like. It takes more then just love to make it work and only the two of you know if you have it or not. That's just the kids. How about your ex and your new wife? Maybe your ex will hate the new wife and make visitation almost impossible. Maybe she'll turn your kids against their step mom. Or, maybe she'll be so jealous that she'll spend all of her waking hours making your life miserable because she's unable to get on with her life. Do you love this woman enough to make it past all of that? Does she love you enough to not complain about the child support you pay, the plans you cancel with her for your children or the fact that some day your kids may live with you and you'll have a house hold of 4. Does she love you that much????

In your "lover's" post, she talks about how wrong it was and how you should do the right thing, etc. In my husband's affair, as he described it, all these feelings of how wrong it all was and how they needed to break it off were damned good foreplay. The longing, the angst, the guilt, and the painful thought of giving up their relationship all led to higher levels of passion. After the first few weeks of no-guilt whoopee, they would meet and talk about how wrong it was to be together and how she should give him up so that he could decide what to do. Then he would talk about how he loved me, but "like a friend" and how he wanted to build a new life with her, so I could find someone who would really love me, and so on. After a while of this, the feelings got so strong, they would have to fall into each other's arms in bed, just to discharge all that high, dramatic emotion.<P>Sound familiar? If we polled everyone here, it would probably sound familiar to them, too.

Sorry TruthSeeker, but in Whattodo's first post he states that Azhootie gave him an ultimatum to either leave or work on his marriage. Ultimatum's don't sound like trying to get help to me. She sent him to so that her ego can hear more of how he want's to leave, so that we can help her believe that "hey this MM is really in love and should leave for OW". At least from these post's thats exactly what I am getting out of it. No one here would say okay to that. We ALL know that when you are in the grips of the affair, nothing that anyone says is going to persuade them. They have to learn on their own. Sorry to be so blunt, but i think we can see where this train is headed. (SORRY, I READ THE WRONG POST ABOUT WIFE CALLING OW AND IT WASN'T AZHOOTIE'S STORY).<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited March 21, 2000).]

Freinds...<P>My good friends...<P>In my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000002.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All...</A>... I say...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Most of all... you will find compassion and love here. No judging... no demeaning... no malice here...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let's keep to the ideals of this forum as a safe haven for all...<BR><B>Everyone</B>... and I do mean <B>everyone</B> who comes here is in such pain... and distess...<P>I've also said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We care... because we know how it feels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...Don't we know each others pain?... Aren't we supposed to grow as people through the support offered here?... to put ourselves in each other's shoes... to discover why things happened?... and then grow into making our lives better?...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We do not always agree with each other on how to handle situations... but each of us is offering to you advice based on individual experiences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...this is something we accept as <B>unique</B> individuals each with our own perspectives and values.<P>Let's help with each other in the framework of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>'s principles derived from <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection</A></B> and <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care</A></B>...<P>We come to this forum for <B>protection</B> and <B>care</B>... when we might get neither from our spouses, friends, children or others.<P>I'm not a moderator here... and I impose no judgments...<BR>I as friend to many of you... all I humbly ask for... is for some gentility. <P> <P>Jim (Welcome Wagoneer to all)<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 21, 2000).]

SORRY, I READ THE WRONG POST. IT WASN'T AZHOOTIE'S MM WIFE WHO CALLED HER!

Jim,<P>You said what I was trying to say in a much better way. Reading these posts, it felt to me that all the anger these people have toward their spouses was being directed at whattodo. That is not what this forum is for. Yes, you are angry. Yes you are in pain. Yes, you were wronged. You have a right to vent your pain and your anger, but not when it is directed at someone who did not cause your own personal pain. I still believe that they both came here for help. And from my own personal experience, I can say that when someone who is confused and hurting begins to feel attacked, they WILL get defensive. they will push back with everything they have. To get through to someone in that state, attacking just pushes them away. It has the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. They stop listening wo what you say because they perceive it as a personal threat that they must defend against. <P>It's only when someone in that state of mind sees that you understand their state of confusion, the pain that they are suffering, will they believe that what you say has any merit.<P>I'm not saying they should be placated and told to keep on doing what they are doing. Of course not. As Jim said, point them in the direction of following the Harley principles on this site. Offer them suggestions on ways to make ending the affair easier and therefore possible. Give them some good constructive advice and leave out the personal attacks. <P>Again, <B>people stop listening when they feel they are being attacked.</B>

Just one more post on this thread. I wanted to speak to "whattodo"'s concern about his sex life with his wife. My H said the same thing about no passion ever being in our lives from the beginning. and you know what? he was right! Once I realised this and understood I could lose him because of it, it changed my outlook on our intimacy completely. Now we are more passionate, more erotic, more wonderful lovers for each other than you could ever have imagined. Whattodo?, go home and talk to your wife. Tell her how badly you're feeling and that you're afraid your marriage is falling apart. She'll probably hear the wake up call and, even though you'll go through more he11 than you would think is possible, in the end, you may find a woman more passionate, more caring, more wonderful than you'd ever realized before. Give your marriage a change, let go of the OW so you can steer your heart in the right direction. Then, if it doesn't work, you can feel good in the fact that you did everything you could to save it. There's always hope, just open your eyes to see it.

First let me say that I don't need anyone to speak for me. I am not taking out my pain on someone else. That is a generalization that all the betrayed here are just angry because it happened to them. HELLO, maybe we feel that Whattodo did not come here for help BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY WE FEEL plain and simple. Don't speak for me or others in saying, since it happened to us we are defensive. I HONESTLY feel that Whattodo wants us to say it is okay what he is doing. And I put it the way I WANTED to. If it offends some of you, then too bad, worse things have happened in life, and i won't be told how to or what to say in response to anyone because a few don't like the way it was worded. i will admit that at first it sounded like Azhootie wanted help in ending something that will end with her being the one in pain and yes some were there to hold her hand through it, but now she says she wants it to continue and that is shown through her ultimatum to Whattodo. He wants to justify his infidelity by telling us his sex life is so great with OW, that he can talk to her. WELL DUUUHH, when it starts isn't that how it usually is, you only see each other a few times, so ofcourse you are going to go all out in the sex dept. All I'm saying is it is easier to walk into something that you THINK would be easier than actually putting in WORK to your marriage, you remember the vows that Whattodo took FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE.

I apologise in advance for what I know will be interpreted as harsh and judgmental. Please know that my intentions are primarily done out of concern for 3 innocent bystanders in this mess, WTD's wife and his two little girls. <P>Though not nearly as enlightened in the mechanics of affairs as many of my fellow MB posters, I feel that I have something to share here, specifically as it relates to Judy and her attempt to manipulate how WTD filters and assesses the information he receives here. (And then use all that she learns to her advantage). The more "allies" she develops here in her position of trying to get WTD to leave his wife, (my interpretation) the harder it will be for him to see the reality of this situation.<P>I am not proud of what I am about to type but I think it needs to be laid out clearly. I was once the queen of head games. Smart people know exactly which words to use and which cards to play (and timing is always everything). I see nothing but head games in Judy's posts.<P>What I read from Judy's e-mail to WTD and her post are efforts to play a pity card in the hopes that WTD will not read into her true intentions. Yes, it may seem risky to point him in the direction of the MB forum and web site if she really believed that it would mean an end to their relationship. I do not believe that this is her true intention however (the end of Judy and WTD). I believe that her games are actually an effort for WTD to see that she is not a "typical OW", that she is really just interested in HIS happiness and that will endear him to her further. <P>Why do I say this? If this were her true intent, she would welcome the insight that all have to offer WTD without taking offence. She would welcome it in the true spirit of those trying to help him heal his marriage. Rather than doing this, she calls honest, helpful comments by Kalgrl as "venomous", this from the same woman who once posted: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Thank you all for your responses......no need to apologize for sounding "harsh". I certainly know what I have done is wrong and can understand the hurt and pain that this can cause." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Judy, none of what Kalgrl posted was directed to you personally, nor was it extremely harsh but you CHOSE to jump right into defence mode "woe is me", I believe with the same intent you had with your "damn tears" comment in your e-mail to WTD.<P>Look at Judy's e-mail. WTD says that Judy tells him that she says "she wants happiness for me either by working on my marriage or by leaving my wife and being with her." How nice, her ONLY concern is for HIS happiness. My a$$. Her e-mail goes on to say how truly unselfish she is to try to let him go in the name of love. (My guess is that he complains that his wife has been selfish about things in the past and she is trying to be everything she knows the wife isn't and avoid everything she is that WTD doesn't like - just a hunch). I do know that in all unfairness, WTD has shared many letters from his wife asking for them to work on things with Judy. She knows what he likes and what he doesn't. <P>She says, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I hope that you will be honest though as you continue to post there and allow them to see that I am not the cause of your marriage being messed up."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What *should* it matter to Judy WHAT the cause is for his messed up marriage? If her true *intentions* are for him to be with his family for "purely unselfish reasons", what does it matter where the blame falls?<P>The "kicker" is <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Maybe you'll get to the point where someone DOES say it's hopeless if you continue being honest about your feelings with respect to your marriage. Who knows?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What I read into this is "be honest about your feelings about your marriage, how much you truly dislike being with her, how you can't see spending a lifetime with her and then, maybe "they" will actually see that it is better for you to be with such a caring, selfless, committed woman such as myself and they will help to build OUR marriage." Why else would you put something like this into an e-mail *meant* to help remove yourself from his life?<P>Then there is <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"You'll work on your marriage and life will be good for you and no one except me loses out. Better me than anyone else - right? Damn these tears."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This sounds like someone playing games, someone who wants the reader to say, "no, not better you than HER, she is causing me misery, you give me nothing but pleasure, it anyone needs to hurt, better it be her than YOU, the light of my life." and then think to himself, "now she is crying and hurt, how can I keep doing this to her?" <P>Judy goes on to say, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"hang in there baby......this will all be over soon......one way or another." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a bad movie where you KNOW the one saying it has true (unspoken) intentions that they are in the process of trying to execute. Again, does this sound like someone who REALLY wants to *help* it head in one direction (that of being with his wife) or otherwise?<P>On other (very recent) posts, Judy has also said, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"My first reaction is "lucky you!!!" I would without a doubt be the happiest woman on the face of the earth if the MM left his wife for me....."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ..........I thought you would be most "happy" if he left you to try to find happiness with his wife - that that was the reason for all of your efforts in coming here, to have help in making a "self-less sacrifice" that you know is in the best interests of everybody...........<P>On yet another post, she also says that she believes that her MM would never leave his wife for her. Is this really what this is about? Some warped test, game, call it what you will?<P>The most relevant post of Judy's is the following entitled "God is able to heal the pain of divorce".........why would someone who is encouraging her MM to repair his marriage post this? Especially interesting is the fact that she "rejoices" in her own divorce and is kinder to the OW and thanks her for taking her ex off her hands. Why then the desire to find passages that make divorce "ok" and easier to cope with? I find it truly warped that someone would try to use the bible to further their own sinful intentions and lead others down the same path. The passage about marrying young is probably meant to hit directly home. My guess is that it's intent is to alleviate guilt in WTD, to help him to see that his wife who "married young" can be married to God who loves her though WTD did not. Sad indeed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>"God is able to heal the pain of divorce"</B><BR>The pain of any divorce can seem excruciating, but an unexpected or unwanted breakup can devastate those left behind. Often these hurting women and men feel bewildered, numb, and lost. They wonder where was God when their wedding vows went up in flames.<P>God grieves with you when an unfaithful spouse says, I just don't love you anymore, and He longs to bring comfort and healing to your broken heart.<P>For those devastated by unwelcome divorce:<P>* God can heal broken relationships. Divorce is ugly and always leaves painful wounds, but Jesus is an expert at bringing reconciliation to warring parties. Even when the marriage cannot be saved or restored, personal reconciliation can take place.<P>* God can be your husband. When marriages cannot be restored, there is hope. For your Maker is your husband - the Lord Almighty is His name - the Holy of one of Israel is your Redeemer, He is called the God of all the earth. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit - <B>a wife who married young, only to be rejected</B> (Is. 54:5-6). God longs to bring you the joy and contentment that your failed marriage could never deliver. He loves you and will never reject you. He asks only that you give Him your heart, as broken as it may be.<P>* Reject bitterness by forgiving the one who hurt you. The pain of divorce, left to itself, usually transforms itself into bitterness for the rejected spouse - and the children as well. You must forgive your ex-spouse. It isn't easy, and the spouse doesn't deserve it. But say out loud, I forgive him/her. It's in the past. Like God in Christ forgave me, I've forgiven him/her. Only then will you be free. By forgiving the one who hurt you, you release yourself from the prison of hate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Later down in her post on this thread, she comments on his marriage: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"She issued him an ultimatum.... marry me or I'm moving back to NJ. They were young (only 22) and he was scared and naive and though he'd never find anyone who loved him later in life. A mistake but who among us can say they've never made a mistake. He's made a couple and now wants help in fixing the biggest hugest one.... will he find it here????"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm just guessing again but I suspect that at one time or another, WTD told Judy that marrying his wife was one of the biggest mistakes of his life and she is just playing on his words and emotions with that comment. What exactly is she referring to as the biggest mistake, his marriage so young to someone who presented an ultimatum or his affair with her? ....Again, I know what she wants it to come across as but the undertones and other posts tell a different story. <P>To WTD: you have a wife who has given you letters asking for you to work with her to heal your marriage. In kind, you shared them with Judy who on a post said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> It was <B>actually</B> a really nice letter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>. Why should she be surprised that it was a really nice letter, other than by what you have told her? Your wife probably is a very nice person who needs YOUR help to ensure a lifelong, happy commitment together. Since Judy once said that money isn't an issue for you, I HIGHLY recommend that you contact Steve Harley for counselling if you are having any doubts about the possibility of a romantic, loving relationship with your wife. If you do not have any intentions of persuing a healthy relationship with your WIFE at all, then you are wasting the time of all the good people here in order to justify something that is very painfully relived everytime someone sees this situation played out. The people here know the hurt you are living first hand as the betrayers and the hurt of your wife as the betrayed but are willing to share their experience with you if you want to help your relationship. If you do not, you are wasting your time and the time and emotions of some very caring people who DO KNOW first hand that you CAN have the relationship of your dreams with your wife, the woman you married for life. <P>Ready to be flamed but had to get this off my chest.<P>Lisa <BR><p>[This message has been edited by LisaM (edited March 21, 2000).]

Hi Lisa M,<P> Amen!!!! <P> I offered Azhootie sympathy on her earliest threads but I agree with you 100% and everyone can flame me too. <P> You have described EXACTLY how I see this ....and I very rarely feel this way about other posts and posters......thank you....LU

I have no intention of flaming anyone. I have not read all of her psots, so I will not even try to argue anyone's points about them. All I was trying to say is that people will argue and get defensive. It's human nature. The more you tell them what awful human beings they are for doing what they are doing, the more they will argue and try to defned their point of view. If you really want someone to listen, you have to stop doing that. Yes, what they are doing is wrong. they know that or they wouldn't be here. Yes, you need to be firm about that.<P>Trying2_4give,<P>You proved my point. You felt attacked by what I said (which, BTW, was not my intention. I apologize to anyone who felt that I was attacking them personally. It was the overall tone of some of the posts that I was commenting on.) You got defensive and stop listening to what I was saying. I have done this myself on this board many times. (Just ask JL ) That is why I said that I was speaking from experience.<P>I was just hoping that people could offer some constructive advice to whattodo. If you have nothing constructive to offer, stay silent until you do.<P>That said, I DID see some posts with some good constructive advice in between all the name-calling. I would like to see more of that continue. (the positive stuff, not the name-calling )<p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 21, 2000).]

Lisa...I agree 100% with you wholeheartedly.<P>I could see the intent behind that e-mail. Why do I see it? Because, when I was younger, single, and dating, I used to play the same head games.<P>Azhootie: If you really want to help What-To-Do-Now work on his marriage, then just have ZERO contact with him.<P>What-To-Do-Now: Give your marriage a chance. I won't buy that line of "I married too young." That's a lame excuse. What about the rest of the years inbetween? You should have thought about that before you brought children into this world and made a vow to your wife and God.<P>Your W deserves to know what is truly going on. I don't know if you want to work on your marriage....but let your W also make that decision if she wants you or not. She deserves honesty. She also should be aware that you have jeapordized her life by having sexual relations with someone else. She needs to know that you are NOT monogamous.

Are you still there WTD???<P>This thread has taken a life of its own.<P>Please do the right thing for everyone. Go to your wife and tell her how unhappy you are. Give her and yourself a chance to find that wonderful life. We did.<P>I'm not sure if you are truly asking or why you are here, so I'm not going to take the time now to give you ideas of how to approach your wife. I will if you ask.<P>Read Surviving an Affair, and come to your own conclusions. My h did, before he even approached me.<P>You are in a very tough spot right now. Prolonging the affair only makes it worse. Your wife is about to experience the worst pain of her life even if you stay, but 100 times if you leave without giving her a chance. I think you will need to confess it all, not only for the usual reasons of restoring complete honesty and openness, but because YOU WILL NEED HER HELP TO BREAK THIS ADDICTION.<P>I helped my h through it, now looking back it was well worth it. She will need to know that you are not in love with her, but you believe there is hope it can be recreated.<P>Steve or Jennifer could walk you through the process. My h told Jennifer before he told me. She was there for me and helped me to realize punishing him would only hurt me in the long run. I understood that I wanted the marriage in spite of the pain and anger.

Say....why not get WTD's wife in on this thread as well...that would make this even more interesting!

LISA M... 2 thumbs up!!!! Well said!! Truthseeker not feeling defensive by what you said, but if that's how you chose to see it then that's your choice. You don't feel everyone here has given "constructive advice" maybe they feel they have. It's all a matter of how one interprets the information they have read.

LisaM:<P>No flaming here. But I do want to point out a couple of things. KALGRL's response was directed at me personally:<P>(quote) This is directed at your OW. I have always felt that you came to this forum in order to somehow relieve the guilt you feel about being involved in an adulterous relationship and to somehow justify this relationship. The above quote of course only confirms what I already knew. You were given support and advice but you have failed to follow any advice given here. As I have posted to your lover just what do you two expect to get here? <P>In my opinion you two deserve each other. I mean look at the great beginning your relationship had: a drunken roll in the hay with a married man who has a history of infidelity. Does'nt get any better than that does it? <P>(I don't know how to do the quote thing so I copied and pasted it)<P>She can believe I came here for any reason she wants. It wasn't to relieve guilt, it was to get help from what I truly have come to realize is an addition. I don't have addictive tendancies so I didn't understand just what a powerful hold this could have on a person (me). I don't think that comment of hers was particularly venomous. It was what followed. There was nothing helpful or constructive in the remainder of it. It was just ugly and mean. <P>You don't know me....so everything you laid out in your post could be perfectly true. Except it's not. WTD is no dummy. If my motives were anything but true, he'd be wise enough to see right thru me. He's college-educated, VERY analytical (engineer) rational (until now). I doubt I could pull anything over his eyes even if I tried.<P>Let me just say something that might demonstrate why the things in your post were not on the money.....if my intentions were to NOT let him go. I would never have posted here. He has told me on more than one occassion that if I moved to NC, there is no way he could resist me. I am still here in AZ even though I have the means to pick up and move. My boss has already told me I can do my job from anywhere I chose. Add to that the fact that my ex-husband just moved to NC in November after living oversead for the last several years....if I moved there too he'd be closer to his children, plus my very best friend in the whole world lives there as does my sister's parents in law whom they visit often so it is truly appealing. But I'm not, Lisa. I am (whether you see the progress or not) trying to break things off, not because I want to, but because I know it's the right thing to do. <P>I would actually love nothing more than for him to leave her and for us to make a life together. But that's that selfish side of me. The compassionate side defends his marriage to my friends and beats myself up for feeling that way. <P>Read Nomas' post from a couple of weeks ago. Here is a good Christian man involved in ministry for the last 10 years struggling (I'll even use the word BATTLING) with the pain of addiction and trying to let go. <P>It happens to good, decent people too, Lisa. I'm not a "queen of head games"... just a normal joe (jane?) who got in over her head and is trying to make amends. There is nothing to read between the lines. No supersecret manipulative plot. Just two people in a tremendous amount of pain, seeking help from others who were successful in getting thru this. Period. No hidden agenda. <P>I'm hurting, I'm weary, I'm making some progress but I fall sometimes too. I showed my friend (our office manager) some of these posts and she was so sad to read them. She just gave me a big hug as tears welled up in her eyes and said "they just don't know ya, they just don't see what I see" and then told me I shouldn't subject myself to this kind of stuff and to stop coming here. <P>So I guess in closing, Lisa...yes, everything you said could be true...I could be a lying, manipulative, heartless, souless, woman with ulterior motives. But I know I'm not. <BR>

I agree with much of what has been said here. It is also interesting because it gives a good idea of the personalities behind the pen names. It's easy to see who are the peacemakers (NSR, Truthseeker); who are the plain speakers (trying 2 4give, me); and who are the analyzers (LisaM, bonniesept).<P>I have to say I thing LisaM has it just right, but I doubt whattodo is even here anymore.<P>Perhaps some of us on this thread haven't been as patient or understanding as we might have been. But I have to say that having two people who are having an affair come to this site under these circumstances is sort of like George W. Bush showing up at the Democratic National Convention to campaign for votes! He shouldn't expect to be patted on the back and told how wonderful he is.<P>Whattodo didn't come here asking how to end his affair and save his marriage. He came to tell us all how flawed his wife is and how great his mistress is. And to insinuate that he wanted to give up his wife and children for great sex. I doubt that anything anyone here says will change his mind or the mind of his mistress.<P>peppermint

I would no more have asked (or would even suggest now, months after it's over) the OM to come here than shoot my foot. This is MY safe place. I just don't understand it.<P>If my H asked the OW to come here, it would be like those earlier situations with Tired Lady and Mia... and for those of you who weren't here, it was gawd-awful. If the OM or OW accidently finds this place in their quest to make their marriage better, and remain anonymous, more power to them. But this way? NO! NO! NO! There is only trouble like this.<P>AZ, I do wish you blessings and God's love and forgiveness as you put your life back together, and I wish the same for you WTD... truly... my thought is that you can not be anonymous here, either of you. I honestly think you need to find SAFE places where you can work on yourselves WITHOUT EACH OTHER AROUND.<P>~Sheryl <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 21, 2000).]

New_beginning ~<P>Thanks for everything you have done and said from day one. Whether you believe it or not, you have helped tremendously. It may not seem so, but we have taken many steps to end this and all at yours and others encouragment.<P>My intention was to leave here and not post anymore and allow WTD to post here instead but it got ugly and he called me and wondered what the heck was going on. Not at all what I promised him as far as people being supportive and non-judgemental! Maybe he isn't phrasing things right in that he is asking tough questions but I do believe that his mind is made up.....divorce is not an option and he just wants confirmation that he is making the right decision. Intead all of a sudden this becomes about me and his issues/questions are being neglected and it's a "let's stone Judy" thread....that's sad to me.<P>I know I certainly won't be back and though I haven't heard the same from him, I would bet he feels the same. <P>And maybe he doesn't express his remorse or sorrow for what he has done/is doing in his posts, but trust me, it's there. <P>Thank you for not "turning" on me. Thank you for not reading between the lines and trying to psychoanalize things....thank you, thank you, thank you. For everything.<P>Take care and God bless.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>Are you still there WTD???<P>This thread has taken a life of its own.<P>Please do the right thing for everyone. Go to your wife and tell her how unhappy you are. Give her and yourself a chance to find that wonderful life. We did.<P>I'm not sure if you are truly asking or why you are here, so I'm not going to take the time now to give you ideas of how to approach your wife. I will if you ask.<P>Read Surviving an Affair, and come to your own conclusions. My h did, before he even approached me.<P>You are in a very tough spot right now. Prolonging the affair only makes it worse. Your wife is about to experience the worst pain of her life even if you stay, but 100 times if you leave without giving her a chance. I think you will need to confess it all, not only for the usual reasons of restoring complete honesty and openness, but because YOU WILL NEED HER HELP TO BREAK THIS ADDICTION.<P>I helped my h through it, now looking back it was well worth it. She will need to know that you are not in love with her, but you believe there is hope it can be recreated.<P>Steve or Jennifer could walk you through the process. My h told Jennifer before he told me. She was there for me and helped me to realize punishing him would only hurt me in the long run. I understood that I wanted the marriage in spite of the pain and anger.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WTD, everyone is so busy talking about your motives, I'm afraid you'll miss this.<P>Please reply. I don't know why there has been such an uproar. I have some idea of the confusion you and Azhootie are feeling since my h was there just last October. I read all his e-mails with his OW and we've talked a lot.<P>I know it is possible to be seriously wanting to take the right path, and be confused. But we are all humans and there is a lot of raw emotion running on all sides of these issues.<P>