<BR>FHL!<P>What you said about children is SO true! There has always been the "genetics versus environment" discussion in psychology: Which influences behavior more? My entire life previous to having children, I thought it was environment that influenced children's temperament. Then my spouse and I started having children (we have a boy who is almost 5, a girl who is 3, and a little boy who just turned 1). I have to confess I have undergone a complete conversion on this one. I now am convinced that temperament is almost entirely genetic! As evidence of this, my oldest son was a *tornado* in utero. He thrashed around inside like a bundle of energy, and that's exactly the way he's been since he was born. My daughter was much more gentle in utero, and that's the way she's always been since. My younger son was/is between these two.<P>TS, I suppose there really are families where a husband calls all the shots, which seems to be a nightmare marriage for you. But after reading Gottman's latest book, I don't think there are many of these marriages left out there. And you're certainly aware that this "wives submit" thing is a hotbutton issue for you, so when you remarry you'll have *already* made sure that your fiancee believes in POJA. So what are you worried about? Note how I'm marrying you off already? <P>Bystander

Ok, so now I've inadvertently started a genetics vs. environment discussion.<P>I do remember Nellie's comment, but it sure doesn't hold for my two.<P>Bystander, you described mine exactly. My son (just turned 5) was so active in utero, he was born with a knot in his cord. Just like a shoe lace knot. And he has not slowed down much.<P>My almost 3 year old daughter is still in the terrible twos, not as quiet as she started.<P>I tried to prepare my son for d's coming, bought him dolls and played with him. I play cars with my little daughter.<P>What can I say? He's a typical boy and she loves her "baby", has the cars talking to each other instead of crashing and flirts with men like crazy.<P>No, TS, I did not teach them this, and I can so far say they didn't get it anywhere else either. I don't teach my son that boys don't cry, though I teach them both they should have a good reason to cry. <P>

Expanding on leadership.... And the Bible...<P>Anyone heard of servent leadership? It is the style that Jesus had. I think a good leader practices serventhood. Same for a husband. <P>Good discussion!

schizzo:<BR><B><BR>professorg- I will disagree again (sorry). I used to believe the Holy Spirit would inform us and give us the right interpretation. I've spent all my adult life basing my life on the teachings of the Bible and seeking to understand them better.<P>I'm not dismissing the Holy Spirit. It's the method I question. It all comes down to an inner prompting or a "peace" that this part of the Bible means what I think it does. Years later I learn that was completely wrong. I don't blame Him, I blame me. My understanding of the Bible was very hodgepodge; based on what I heard at church, friends, other sermons, books, etc.</B><P>What I hear yopu saying is that you are relying on a human to tell you what you should be getting from reading the Bible directly. God speaks to you through His word and through others as well. Yet, if someone tells you something that is in there, get a reference and read it yourself. The final court of arbitration is His word and not what someone tells you. It is when you study His word that you finally understand what you are supposed to learn. It is much like coming int the middle of a movie where there are a lot of flashbacks. Until you see the entire movie you really are lost. The Holy Spirit is the one who helps you to understand these things because He speaks to you.<P><BR><B>The only way to understand the Bible is through sheer hard work, which I have been doing for the last few years. Taking the Bible and the best commentaries and evaluating the meanings in the original languages and sifting through all the information.</B><P>Yes, it is a relationship between Him and you. All relationships require hard work. This is most of the problem: we want the quick and dirty approach. Anything worth having requires hardwork.<P><I>The absolute best book I ever read on understanding the Bible is <B>How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Fee & Stuart</B><P>The intro is especially an eye opener as it stresses the point that we must first know what the author is saying and to whom. We cannot treat the Bible as some kind of magic book and have parts say things to us that the author never intended. I'm sure you've heard the joke about opening the Bible at random:<P> 1. Judas went and hanged himself.<BR> 2. Go and do thou likewhise.<BR> 3. And what thou doest, do quickly.<P>And yet this is the way so much of the Bible is taught. Verses lifted from their context and strung together to create a "new" teaching.</I><BR>That is how slavery was justified. Man decided he would take a particular scripture and put his own spin on it. That is why it is important to read the text before and after the verse. SOmetimes you have to read the chapter before and after to get the full meaning of the verse. It is very important that you read the Bible yourself to see if what the person is saying is correct. This is where the Holy Spirit steps in to help you understand. Don't know where it is but it says to test the spirit by the spirit which entails going to the Bible to verify it.<P><B>Truth will not hurt you, it will set you free. And you know ulitimately all truth comes from the Lord. If you are</B><P>The truth does hurt when looked at from an emotional perspective. Yet, the freedom that comes from knowing the truth feels so much better than being in the dark thinking everything is okay when it is not.<P><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trustntruth:<BR><B>Expanding on leadership.... And the Bible...<P>Anyone heard of servent leadership? It is the style that Jesus had. I think a good leader practices serventhood. Same for a husband. <P>Good discussion!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Exactly!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

professorg,<P>How is it we are using the same words, but saying totally different things??<P>It is precisely that our interpretation of Scripture is based on all kinds of things from other people unless we have studied it for ourselves. And the context is not just the verse before and after or the chapter. It is the entire book, and different writers do not use words the same way, so you can't run to Paul to interpret Luke, etc.<P>My point is that the Holy Spirit is not going to do this for anyone. Unless He chooses to come and speak to us out loud like Moses. Inner "feelings" that we often attribute to the Holy Spirit cannot be substituted for good exegesis (to determine the original meaning in its context- both historical and literary) and then eisegesis (to determine if there is a timeless principle that applies to our lives).<P>Will you take a crack at the book?? It started me on a great journey of studying the Scriptures for myself. And you know what? Most of the verses don't mean anything near what I was taught. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>professorg,<P>How is it we are using the same words, but saying totally different things??<P>It is precisely that our interpretation of Scripture is based on all kinds of things from other people unless we have studied it for ourselves. And the context is not just the verse before and after or the chapter. It is the entire book, and different writers do not use words the same way, so you can't run to Paul to interpret Luke, etc.<P>My point is that the Holy Spirit is not going to do this for anyone. Unless He chooses to come and speak to us out loud like Moses. Inner "feelings" that we often attribute to the Holy Spirit cannot be substituted for good exegesis (to determine the original meaning in its context- both historical and literary) and then eisegesis (to determine if there is a timeless principle that applies to our lives).<P>Will you take a crack at the book?? It started me on a great journey of studying the Scriptures for myself. And you know what? Most of the verses don't mean anything near what I was taught. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am not disagreeing with you. I use the analogy of the three blind men and the elephant. ONe had the trunk and thought it was a hose, one had the tail and thought it was a rope, and the third had a leg and thought it was a tree. When all those perspectives are put together you have a clearer picture of what it is that you are observing.<P>The same goes with scripture that is why Paul and Luke wrote from different perspectives so that we could have a fuller more meaningful picture of what we are observing. I don't rely on feelings. I rely on what the Bible says and what the Holy SPirit tells me. I have found feelings are not a reliable means of discerning what is true. The exegesus that you refer to is still another person. Besides the Bible says that we are to come together to study the word. As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit uses people as well as the Bible to communicate with us. I am merely a broken vessel that He uses to spread His word as it says in the Bible.<P>We are not saying two different things while using the same words. I am sure that I am not effectively communicating what is meaningful to you. It is a flaw that I have had for 37+ years. I understand where everyone else is coming from and can see that we are coming at it from two perspectives byut really saying the same thing. I hated this when I had psychology.<P>I still respectfully disagree that the Holy Spirit speaks to us all the time. It is just that our pride gets in the way which causes us to not be able to hear the Holy SPirit.<P><BR>MONDO HUG to ya!!!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Although each of us has the ability to negotiate whatever we need one-on-one, we aren't created in a vacuum. We are all affected by the collective beliefs of our society.<P>What if POJA means "I want you to enthusiastically agree that I'm the boss?" The one reason I like POJA, in general, so much is that it requires understanding of both people's point of view to really work. It takes alot longer than a dictatorship style of relationship, but is so much healthier in the long run.<P>Bystander,<BR>I thought I had that kind of marriage when I married my second H. His mother AND 98 yr. old grandmother both have Master's degrees. His father does all the cooking. Not typical roles. We followed what I thought was POJA for a long time. He wasn't honest with me about his needs prior to marriage, so it wasn't a true POJA.<P>What I learned was that in a difficult decision, he still believed that he should have the final say, in spite of our earlier "agreement" concerning my educational goals. He decided that he liked his job and where we lived more than he originally thought he would, and therefore decided to do whatever was necessary (including criticism, degrading talk) in order to dissuade me from my goal. He changed the rules. He also observed the marriages of his friends, where it was clear who had the final say. Why would he want to stay with me when he could so easily find a woman who would be fine with that sort of arrangement? This thread proves that.<P>I occurred to me this morning that I was sick of having to twist his arm to do something he had agreed to do before we married and many times afterward. When I cheated on him, I was too chicken to ask him for a divorce. I gave him an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway, and that was to go find someone who would let him have the "final say". I think virtually all men are like that. Doesn't matter how egalitarian their behavior is on the surface. They don't feel like "men" unless they feel like they are "in charge" at some level. <P>I won't be married (sorry) because I know it is only a matter of time for the latent "I gotta call the shots" tendencies come out. When it does, I'm gone, and I don't want the stigma of a third divorce hanging over my head when that happens.