Peppermint hit the nail on the head, at least in my case:<P>" How much of the affair was caused by the male ego and his desire to be admired and stroked?"<P>This is EXACTLY why my H got sucked into his affair. My H was having difficulty finding fulltime employment, was feeling very bad about himself, & OW came to the rescue by stroking his ego (among other things) big time. <P>She definitely had the advantage because 1.) she worked side by side with him in the military reserves, whereas I am not and have never been in the military, so much of what he does is foreign to me, and<P>2.) she was his BOSS, and gave him glowing performance appraisals!!!! I know this because I remember him coming home and being on cloud nine telling me he'd never before maxed out on his review. It's truly hard to believe that he took it seriously, knowing that there was no way she could be unbiased.<P>I have always believed in my husband's abilities, but I truly believe now that there was nothing I could have done or said that would have equated to the third-party OW ego stroking. It was like MY admiration for him was unbelievable, therefore meaningless to him. Deep down he felt like he was failing me, because I was carrying most of the financial load. So, in his mind, I couldn't possibly admire him.<P>This is where I have a real problem with Harley's needs concept. In certain situations, I really believe that it is impossible for a spouse to fill another's needs. Especially, if they no longer believe in themselves.

<BR>trustntruth,<P>I think that my H met a lot of the criteria for avoidant personality disorder. One of the things that seemed to really bother him shortly before the affair was that a friend of his, who was probably his only real friend, suddenly no longer seemed to want to spend much time with him.<P>sidney,<P>I think you are right. I think my H felt like he had failed, and decided that I must feel that way too - and then he started interpreting everything I said or did in that light. I think you are right that it is impossible to fill another's needs when he doesn't believe in himself.<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited April 02, 2000).]

trustntruth, The avoidant personality type really describes my H. He specifically mentioned being a perfectionist and having really high standards to live up to. <P>In this "fantasy" that he is living, he is living in some intellectual place where the standards are so high, the kids and I don't meet them. The OP's H mentioned to me that the OP was worried that she didn't measure up to those standards. That's how I realized this was SUCH a fantasy. It was so grandiose, and began with a few crises that I won't go into here.<P>It has been so out of character for my H. I feel and have always felt that the issues he has been avoiding do not have to do totally with me or our marraige. I have always felt that he was projecting them onto me. Now whether or not he ends up seeing it that way is another story.<P>I actually felt like he was finally confronting every person he has needed to confront since birth (that would include his mom and sibs) His S mentioned a childhood incident in which he lost it. (adolescent yrs. ) with his next brother in line .(he is oldest of 6) She described him as snapping in a way that she had only seen that one time. And it was after a period of time where he was challenged by this brother for getting his way all of the time.<P>I kind of feel that my H has snapped alittle here also. I'm sure that I've given him more than a hard time in recent years in having his way.<P>I think it was Peppermint who made the comment about ENs and being able to be the one to meet them. I agree. I actually said to my H, which came first...me not meeting your needs of admiration at home first, or she meeting those needs in an almost groveling way, so that he didn't come home and have me meet them.......<P>He basically has agreed to everything I've said about the situation and said "I'm sorry about that" with that glazed, possessed look in his eyes.....(This was early on of course)<P>Now, having said all that we've said....What do we do about the avoiders???????? <P>I guess at least we know we are not alone. And now that I know your usernames, I'll be looking you up to vent!!!!!!!!!

This is a interesting thread.Kind of makes you want to study psychology.I probably lean more to a Avoidant Personality than my W.She's just the opposite.Where I need to warm up to people,she is very outgoing,sometimes outspoken,dramatic,and likes to be the center of attention.Would this be classified as a narcissist?<BR> Perhaps it's easier for someone like her to have an affair,because she is so extroverted.As she got older,she also became more arrogant,and outspoken.I wonder if a lot of betrayers are arrogant,because of their actions.<BR> I told her that I could of done the same thing to her,and probably feel the same way,but she just didn't get it.Because she did it to me,and has her young"soulmate",and"true love",she thinks she's better than me,and our marriage was all a big mistake.<BR> I like tootrusting's term of"possessed",because I thought my W was,or else on drugs.She'd come over to talk,and just stare at me,then say something cruel.Also did crazy,irrational things.I wish I knew if this is just part of the affair,or if she's really lost her marbles.<BR> --Murph

Great topic!<P>It's interesting to find out that I wasn't the only one reaching the same conclusion. I feel much better <P>Yes my H went trough the same strange rationalizing system. And what was striking me all the time was the fact that he really believed in his own rationalization. <BR>He always had a very strick view about affairs, including her own sister's which upset him to no end, "how can she do this? Is she insane???".<P>Sidney, I hear you. My H really needed some boost. He's life wasn't anything close to what he had planed or dreamed, he was feeling a failure and not able to provide for his family the way he thought he should, and my efforts to show him I was fine, only made him feel worse. He was losing self confidence but didn't accept any reassurance from me, because he felt I was doing it just to cheer him up.Plus he's feeling older, - although he's not old - like life was passing him by. A friend , his age died. He was thinking about his own mortality...<BR>And then she enters the scene. She flatered him, made him believe that he was important and that he was not a failure. She gave that ego a big boost, at the same time the whole situation was remimding him of times where he was free to do what he wanted and had no responsabilities. It seemed like paradise. She was quite good at convince him , that I was the one holding him down, and from that point on, he had a good excuse, he could justify anything that was happening because it was my fault. The best thing to do was to believe that. It spared him any guilt he might have, avoided remorse, and more importantly it was a self defense mechanism that justifyed everything. He wasna't having an affair. He was trapped in a marriage with someone that didn't support him, and whom he didn't love and wanted out. The fact that there was another person had nothing to do with it.<BR>How many times he told me that! It has nothing to do with her! And he believed it too.<P>Even the only time he really thought about leaving, was an escape. Form being caugh the way he was, just coming out of the hotel with her...instead of feeling guilty or saad for hurting me, he just got angry. This avoided any discussion, he used the old "best defense is attack", didn't have to deal with the real issue, and then because he couldn't justify that one, went home and packed. easier than to deal with it.<P>I realised this early in the championship, and was able to adjust my reactions, and my plans, but didn't prevent me to doubt his sanity as well <P>I've talked about this in here before. There has to be an unconscious defense mechanism to protect us from "frying" our brain. People are not "programed" to see themselves as bad, without values, cold or uncaring. So I belive there is something in our brain that just stops us to see ourselves like that when the problem is big enough. It has to justify the actions, so it has to find good enough reasons to do so. Not in love anymore, marriage never worked, sudden amnesia, all his part of the same. to protect us from seeing ourselves like "bad people".<P>However i do believe in Harley's concept. It works, if we are able to see what the problem his and willing to change "strategy" until we find the right one for our case. Grant you that before learning as much as I did in here, I wasn't prepared nor looking in the right direction. But know I think it's easier to find the triggers before they become a real problem, and to find the right way to deal with it.<P>Once again, great topic<BR>Kat

trustntruth, thank you for the link. I've copied below the final recommendation from that article about how to treat this issue. The key thing I noted is that there is no mention of allowing the avoidance to continue. Encouragement to confront the fears, as well as anti-depressants to combat the avoidance, are mentioned. THIS WAS A GREAT LINK.<P>"Avoidance reduction is typically an action-oriented approach to handling the causes, complications and consequences of avoidant personality disorder. It borrows from the active techniques found in other psychotherapies. For example, "total push", from behaviour therapy, forces avoidants to face social interactions for longer periods of time; supportive therapy gives encouragement ("you can do it"), positive feedback ("you are good enough to succeed"), and reassurance ("you can handle the anxiety"); family therapy tries to convince the smothering family to stop infantilizing the individual; and pharmacological therapy advises administering anti-depressant medication to help allleviate the avoidant’s anxiety. Generally, avoidants are encouraged to "do" rather than contemplate, to engage themselves in fearful situations as a means of overcoming their fear. For a more detailed discussion of treatment, see Kantor (1993, p.131). "<P>Nellie, in your case I wouldn't e-mail or write letters to your husband as to him, it is a lovebuster. He is not neutral to you (he really is insane). I think the only practical approach you can take is to wait for the affair to blow-up and then start to gently and cautiously reach out.<P>Tootrusting, I share similar fears as you. I know for a fact that my husband has been telling a slew of lies about all this at work. I know it because he told these lies to his parents. It didn't get uncovered until I discussed the situation indepth with them three months after separation. In my case, my husband has had zero interaction with all family members on my side too. These are 17 year relationships that he dropped on a dime. This is a huge hurdle to overcome. It's much easier to just drop all of them for life. But I always come back to - what are his alternatives? He does have to acknowledge and live with being a coward by doing this - doesn't he? I'm not sure any more. How can I make this easier for him? Should I? I'd have real problems cleaning up this mess on his behalf, considering I'm the primary victim.<P>Actually, by my frequent apologies and acknowledgment of core issues, I have handed him an excuse on a silver platter. He can say that it was all my fault, I've acknowledged it, and he's giving me the opportunity to make amends to him (another chance). The thing is, even he knows this won't work. Our families know the story here without us even telling them things. He KNOWS he is at fault for a large portion of the problems (and especially the affair) and he is correct that my family is absolutely furious with him and thinks he is a huge disappointment. Every one of them thinks I am much better off without him.<P>I don't see how I can really make things easier for him. He did create a mountain to climb and only he can climb it. I can encourage, however.<P>Sidney, I am convinced that low self-esteem and a need to be admired are at the root of much of the problem with these personality types. I know that's what my husband has primarily gotten from his OW. It was missing from me. Plus, I kept beating him out at everything (make twice as much salary as one example). The office is the one place in the world where my husband truly shines. He's a big boss, highly competent and energetic. This is a big part of the problem. It sure wasn't like that at home.<P>Peppermint, I think you hit the nail on the head about their definitions and how it feeds into the justification process. Harley mentions this too, especially in SAA at the part on negotiating the conditions for return and the desire to keep contact. Incredible nonsense such as "it was only emotional", or "it was only sexual", or whatever. Yuch.<P>Kat1, I always enjoy your posts. Yes, they really need to justify and it isn't logical at all. What I really appreciate in your case is how your husband now sees how crazy it was. It gives me some hope that there may be a light at the end of this tunnel.<P>Thanks again.

some of you are further down the (time) road than I am.. I am probably about 5 months into "it" with my H out of the house for 2 months. <P>How do you bring up the important subjects with your spouse's when they are such avoiders?????<P>I've let him know more than once how I feel and how I am willing to work on the marraige. I have hugged him (long hugs) telling him I love him and miss him. <P>last week he still said he had been pretending but didn't realize it, yet he seems to have no memories of our relationship, even of intimacy which just ended the week AFTER he moved out!!!!!!<P>Now this week, I do not think he saw the OP very much....He was here every day for something. We are taking the kids on spring break. He brought me a book. He is very nice to me and to the kids. He has been almost normal to the kids at times. He has become misty eyed re: me and the kids. <P>YET....we have NOT discussed what the heck happened or what will happen. <P>YET....we have not talked about any legal agreement and I am taking care of all the financial stuff. He hasn't changed his address.....We discuss the children's funds and what is going on in the stock market.\<P>He looks alittle less possessed this week. I think I'll be able to tell more on vacation.<P>I don't even know how to begin...I've been trying to plan A which was very difficult while he was mean to me......Now that he is nicer I don't want to push it, but eventually I've got to make some plans. Plus the kids are confused.<P>ANy suggestions on how to round-about bring up the subject to the "avoider"//???????<P><BR>