Bill,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Should I choose to date or whatever, it is my perogitive to do so. If God should put someone in life at this time who am I to argue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! This line sounds <B>EXACTLY</B> as if it came from one of the betrayers!<P>So why can't you wait a few weeks until a divorce is final?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Tim,<P>I may be a little late on the subject but here I am to add my opinion on the matter. I definetly have experience in this one.<P>First off, I dont' think what you described is cheating. I am sorry but we all do have a different definition of an affair. Mine is that is not an affair.<P>Many of the people who replied to your post, have been here since I came. I tried to save my marriage. I did Plan A. My spouse cheated on me, lied to me, left on xmas day and above all served me with divorce papers. That was his decision to end the marriage. The day he served me, I still loved him with all my heart. But I am not afraid to be alone, I don't care to be a door mat forever and I have needs and feelings too. SO I decided I would date other people. I don't feel I am cheating. The marriage is over in both our eyes, and its just a matter of paperwork and signatures at this point. He has even graciously given me permission to date other people. (As if I care what he thinks at this point). <P>Each situation has many factors to your question though. But I definetly see a big difference in those who are more religious, and those who are betrayers from those that are just the average betrayed spouse. <P>I agree with Bill completely on this one and I would like to make a comment on Student's comments. (Cat I owe ya a diet coke for next time!)<P>I am not one to flame anyone and dont' feel this is what I will do now, however this one is going to the STudent.<P>Student : I don't follow your story but I do follow Tim and Bill's. I sure hope the comment about 2 men on the post not waiting til the ink was dry wasn't in reference to them because that was a little uncalled for. Even if it wasn't made towards them its still uncalled for.<P>For one thing, it sounds like from what I got from just your comment on this thread, is that you cheated, and then didn't want your H to leave. He had a rebound affair of some sort and then you divorced. Correct me if I am wrong, but everything you do in this world usually comes back at you ten times over. It is very unrealistic for anyone who is a BETRAYER to expect forgiveness from the BETRAYED. Once the vow has been broken, it is OUR decision to make if we want to save the marriage or not. I did try to save mine. Those who know me, know I suffered TREMENDOUS pain and grief. My story is probably one of the worst ones out here except for Mitzi's and Nancy's. In my case , the day my spouse cheated, I consider that to be the day our marriage was over. I have no grief that I date other men. I am human, I have needs and feelings and I deserve to find happiness. There are a LOT of those BETRAYED on this board that go on to date wonderful people, who are in fact much better than our low life bottom sucking piece of crap spouses who cheated ON US in the first place. <P>I don't think its fair that you judge people so harshly on some subjects. For one, you only know what little we all decide to tell. Many people are afraid to speak freely for fear of getting flamed like you have done here or we get a lot of lurkers who are afraid to post. This site should be a safe place to vent, ask for help or get support. <P>Please remember that unless you have been betrayed, you will never ever ever in a million years be able to know the pain we feel. Remember that we have all suffered low self esteem, shock , devastation, grief, humiliation, and a total disruption in our lives. We all think LONG AND HARD about when the right time to date is. Its fine to have an opinion, but leave the name calling out of it, because many of us betrayed here do offer a lot of support to the BETRAYERS who come and don't resort to name calling.<P>You obviously have some unresolved anger for something. I dont' know you well enough to judge or call you names either, however, try to be a little more kind on the board, we are supposed to be here to help each other. <P>This isn't a case of anyone asking about sex, its just a simple question asking a simple opinion. If it were about sex, then we'd be debating on why our spouse can do it to us then get mad that we do it now.<P>Tim sorry to take over your post, I guess this one just hit me in the wrong place today. You are doing the best you can with Val and don't need to feel like a bad guy. To Bill sorry to hear that you got stood up. <P>Prayers and good wishes to all, Remember the true reason we are here, because at one point we all did try to save the marriage. Just because not all marriages can be saved doesn't mean that any of us are less of a person for moving on. We all deserve to be happy and should be able to feel SAFE here by posting our feelings.<P>Dana<BR>

Chris,<P>I have always concidered you one of my friends on this board, and respect your decisions you have mave made. I do not appretiate you refering to me as a betrayer, moreover I feel complete indifference toward my ex.<P>If you have follwed me here over the past 6 months you will in fact that know that I put in a good collegete effort in trying to reconcile my marriage. I reliesed that there does come a point that all effort is useless.<P>The few short weeks til my D is final is <B>EXACTLY</B> 24 weeks. I must move on so why should I wait? Let's just agree to disagree and not throw names and lables around out of righteous indignation.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited April 10, 2000).]

lonelymom,<P>oh yes, I'm so glad to reply. I just love to hear when people say "Oh if only you knew what it felt like to be betrayed". Ya know what? I have been betrayed before. My first husband had sex with over 20 women while I was married to him. Been there-done that.<P>My second H was no friggin' saint. Yes, I had sex with someone outside my marriage, and I can tell you, that there are much worse things someone can do to you than cheat. What I'm really sick of is hearing the betrayed justify what "technically" is cheating, while bashing their exes. <P>Call it what it is. No matter what your spouse did or didn't do to you, if you are still married and you are dating someone else, then technically it is adultery unless you have your spouse's permission. I can sit here all day and tell you what my ex did to me before I cheated, and I sense it would go nowhere with you. I guess as long as your spouse never has sex with someone else, then you've got a marriage? Hardly!!!!<P>I'm not judging anybody. I did say to do whatever you can rationalize. Apparently, only the "betrayed" are allowed to rationalize. If your conscience wasn't bothering you, then why ask the question? do whatever you feel like doing. Really, I mean that.<P>I don't know all the details of everyone's story. I am stating my opinion about people who date while still married. Did I "sin"? You bet. Do I think it is acceptable? Nope. I don't care what you call yourself (betrayed/betrayer/whatever) it is all the same to me.<P>As Harley says, cheating is defined by the spouse...<P>To Medic and Bill,<BR>Yes, I am blunt. I'm sorry it hurt. I truly do understand the desire for companionship.<P>I'm not still angry at the male population. It is quoted here and elsewhere that one of MOST men's primary needs are for sex. When some people on this board have talked about dating, they (the men, sorry) usually talk about how they could have had sex, or how hot the woman was, etc, etc. So I don't think I'm out of line for assuming that sex, while not the primary reason for dating right now, is pretty high on the list for you guys. <P>You think I don't get lonely? I do, but I know it is not fair to me or the other person to date until I know for absolute sure I have fully healed. I go on outings with groups of people, and have a few men friends, and I work with all men. Maybe it is easier for me to "vicariously" get the approval of the opposite sex that way without officially dating. Who knows? <P>but that is just me. You have to make your own decisions. <P>I'm sorry if you felt I was making sport of bill. I'll admit to being sarcastic, and I'll apologize for that. What I won't apologize for is pointing out when some "betrayed" appear to wear the coat of victim, while doing the exact same thing they have accused their spouse of doing. We know what the name for that is...<P><BR>Chris,<BR>You are an example to everyone here how to hold it together long-term. Your wife is really missing out on something special.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 10, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited April 10, 2000).]

The Student,<P>Thank you for your reply and your candor. One thing I know I have learned here is what <B>I</B> did that caused my W to seek affection and intamacy elsewhere. I have also learned what I need to do in order to have a mutualy fulfilling relationship. I have so much indifference towards my W that I don't want it with her.<P>I look forward to hearing that you are "healed" enough inside to enjoy the intamacy of a relationship. I do have a question though, and I mean this with all respect and sincerity. Would maybe trying to date help with your healing process? I knoiw for me getting out of myself has helped to repair the wounds I have suffered at the hands of my wife. Too much interspection(is that a word?...LOL) is counter productive at times.<P>Best wishes to you,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Bill,<BR>thank your for your concern. I've put alot of thought into the date-or-not-date question. I did briefly "date" someone a few months after my divorce, and it set me way,way back in my healing. <P>What I'm looking for can't be found by dating. That is just me. I don't ever want to be in a place where I'm relying on one person for my emotional well-being. I understand that most men (and women too :-) )date because they want to have sex, eventually, that is. I honestly don't believe that men are just out for sex, but it is not fair to them to waste their time (or mine) if I know there is absolutely no possibility of having that kind of a relationship with them. In a way, you could say I'm married to God, or whatever. <P>If I detect any physical attraction to me on their part, I will not spend time with them. The guys I hang out with are not attracted to me, or are very good at concealing it. Either way, that is how I like it.

Medic:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would like nothing better than to get back together with my W that I still love, fix the relationship and as you put it only "shag" her.<BR> Maybe I am not like any man you have ever met. I don't think with Stanley. I have no desire for sex with anyone other than my Val.<BR> My heart and mind only yearn for one woman, can you guess whom that might be?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then my answer for you is a big resounding "NO" on the dating. I personally believe that dating before a divorce is final is immoral. But that's not the reason for the answer. Val still has a decent account in your love bank---if you start to date, and become emotionally attached to someone else---what will happen if she wakes up and comes back?<P>Most experts in the field of marriages suggest waiting for some period after divorce before dating. It's good advice---you can rationalize that you're "ready" for companionship until the cows come home, but the bottom line is that you're not.<P>Get your companionship from guys right now. You appear to have at least another 6-9 months before you'll REALLY be ready to date. And if you were, you wouldn't be asking the question. Hell, you wouldn't even be here...

OK, late to the party, but I feel I must weigh in.<P>Medic as always seems to be right on. The question is a good one and is one for <B>individual</B> resolution to be made. I totally understand where Bill is coming from and in the same situation would/will feel the same way.<P>It appears that the name-calling is a result of some trying to <I>impose</I> their own values on some one else. In a lot of the replies here the concept that an affair is "however the spouse defines it", comes up over and over and is evidently how the Harleys feel, too.<P>If you use that definition, then in the situation where a marriage is definitely heading toward divorce with both parties in concurrence, the question can be asked: Would my STBX(who is probably living with OP) call a relationship of mine an affair? If the answer is NO, then it isn't an affair, period.<P>Religion and the sanctity of marriage have been trumpeted often here. The period of time between agreement that a divorce is inevitable and the final decree is a <I>legal</I> entity, not a true time of real marriage. The sanctity of the marriage was destroyed when the WS deserted for OP.<P>Anyway, my two cents...for now..<P>--DeWayne--

What I see here is more of a:<P>"If it feels good, do it"<P>approach. DeWayne, your comment is that sancity of the marriage is breached when the spouse leaves the marriage for the OP. How about before, when the "faithful" spouse drives the other spouse's love bank to 0, through the use of lovebusters and neglect? At that point, the marriage is over. The spouse should be free to "date". Why---this is just the way affairs start!!!<P>Imagine that.<P>Here's the rule: if you have any feelings of love for your spouse (at all), don't date. Period. Even if you're divorced. When you're free of those feelings and you ARE divorced, then feel free to date. Anything else is either immoral, illegal, or just plain stupid.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited April 11, 2000).]

K -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if it feels good -- do it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you got that impression from my reply, then I'm sorry, it wasn't what I meant. In fact, that's kinda the message I'm getting from W over the last year.<P>I hadn't thought about my point from the "faithful" spouse draining the love bank, but your point is well made and taken.<P>As for the "rule", rules of moral question are an individual issue. The question to ask is: Who is being/will be hurt by my behavior? One must include oneself in that equation. Is this behavior indicative of the kind of person I want to be or how I want others to see me? This is my main point in this.<P>If I am in a situation where I'm headed for certain divorce, then for all intents and purposes, except for a <I>legal</I> viewpoint, I am already divorced.<P>Divorce describes the spiritual end of a marriage. The final decree just relieves one of any legal responsibilities. <P>One last issue...I think it is very close-minded to feel that simply going out with a friend of the opposite sex during a divorce proceeding is somehow inappropriate. It certainly isn't inappropriate during the marriage when it doesn't involve the concept of an affair from the spouse's viewpoint. It becomes inappropriate or "wrong" when, during the marriage, love, sex or simply giving this person something you will not give your spouse, is involved.<P>--DeWayne--

Bill, I was not calling you a betrayer. I apologize if it came out that way. I have heard that exact line (sent from God) from many betrayers though to try & justify the affair.<P>I am by no means above any of you on this forum. In fact I have less to deal with than most of you. I don't deal with my wife at all. Most of you have to see your spouses & put up with some incredulous crap. I wish I had some of your fortitude in dealing with this.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Here's my two cents worth....<P>While a piece of paper doesn't make it a marriage, there is something that is DIFFERENT in 1) signing a legal piece of paper and 2) standing up before people and committing to each other, than just living together, even with a certain amount of committment.<P>Therefore, if this difference is real in MAKING a real marriage (as opposed to just living together with committment), then the opposite holds true in BREAKING a marriage. There IS a difference between signing a legal paper to dissolve the marriage and standing before witnesses (judge, etc.) and stating that you DON'T have/want to be joined to this person, than just living in different residences and doing your own individual thing (being separated).<P>So, I would say....don't start a new relationship until those steps are completed. Marriage is NOT just in your mind or intent or desires. If it was, then any two people who DESIRE to be together are married. It is a REAL thing, guided by real principles. So to dissolve the thing, it needs to follow a set of principles...they shouldn't be determined by loneliness, desire or whatever. <P>When you were married and didn't feel much love for your spouse, did you all of a sudden become un-married for a few days/weeks? No, you were STILL MARRIED. The committment, the legal papers, etc. all helped to "hold" the marriage together even when you FEELINGS weren't there.<P>Anyway, that's what I feel and think. It's not easy, but the right way sometimes isn't.<P>God bless you.<BR>Mrs. O

Thanks Chris.<P>Hang in there you will know when it is time for you to move on.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>