S and SXH:<P>You both sound like you know what you want and working at getting there. There are always going to be bumpy days and curves in the road you may even get flipped around and rolled upside down a few times. They wouldn't call it a rollercoaster ride if wasn't like that.<P>My prayer for you both is that you will be assured of each other's resolve in this rebuilding effort and that God's strength and grace will carry you through.<P>Try and spend some time doing something new and exciting. Make an effort NOT to talk about the recent events in your marriage while you are doing this. Just BE together and live for THAT moment. <P>Take care and God bless <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole<P><BR>

Soulless Ex-H,<P>Just a quick comment. You said that rather than apologize to your W and ask forgiveness you will act in the manner required to show her that you are remorseful. If I have learned anything reading posts here is that women need to HEAR from their H at least as much as the need to see a new H. <P>If we as males do one thing that really gets to W's, it is assuming that doing the right thing means we don't have to say the right thing. It really takes both. Men watch other men's actions and make decisions, women seem to need more. It is called communication.<P>If you feel like you want to apologize and ask forgiveness, then do it. Then back it up with actions.<P>Just some free advice which may be worth what you are paying for it. I hope not though.<P>God Bless You and Your Family

okaaaaaay.....<P>I am going to get soooooo flamed, I'm sure.<P>My wanting to go to OW's workplace (she owns her own Lee press on nails place) to demand apology or rant has to do with the fact that she threatened you, dear......how dare she threaten my H with her crap about "if she ever finds out you did this (affair) again, especially with any of her clients or friends that she would make you sorrier than you were now for ever meeting her"...she then went on to say don't f$^k with her....too late.....you already did...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah<P>I am obviously hysterical.<P>how dare she threaten you. she should be threatened.....right in front of all her rich clients...their husbands are the ones that should be protected.....god forbid ms. lesbian decide she wants to be a meat-eater again.......people should know that she eats and spits out husbands and families....that her "live for the moment" and her general disrespectful attitude could destroy more families....why the h^ll should these poor woman not know that this one, who they trust with their secrets is actually a pariah with no regard for morals or family values....that this witch doesn't care if kids and lives together are involved....damn right I want to go there and tell her not to threaten you as she is the one that needs to be warned off....and yes, in front of all.<P><BR>As for crawling into a corner and crying yourself to sleep, well, come on in, join me in mine where I have cried myself to sleep for the past week.....it's not as if you come upstairs anymore with me.......GAME until 4am, or posting here.....I am exhausted from staying up until 3 just to be near you...<P>your face gets stony, your arms cross over your chest, and you won't even look at me....you sit while I try to talk honestly with you and the only feeling I get from you is that you are pissed off.....once again, here we go.....why can't she just stop....that is the feeling I get from you...my level of frustration goes up about 200%, and I no longer feel like talking....what is the point...I will not discuss this with someone who is defensive about the wrong he committed..... <P>I am still waiting for the whole story....from start to finish.....where is the accounting? you can stay up until 4 to play computer games, but the 1 request I made to have this done with, to have some understanding, is still, 10 weeks later......in limbo...I still have the version 1 lies mingling with th eversion 2 lies....how many versions are there? could I have the final one? I need to know what happened...from day 1....not gory details.....I have enough of those from the both of you.....but the general story...I am still waiting.....bits and pieces will drive me to an early heart attack....<P>of course you are allowed to feel sorry for yourself..you have done a terible thing and now have to look at the consequences in the face everyday....you too, will have good and bad days....and I hope I can be there for you for both...but if on my bad days you just shut down, what message is that giving me about a future together? you shutting down when I have a serious problem has been your pattern for 4 years.......<P>listen to lostva........the OW had a hand in my pain.....a MAJOR hand.......you kept the entanglement secret, but she had friends call, pretending to be clients, she herself called, giggling, "I hope you don't mind me stealing your husband away"......refering to the late night calls..oh, my water heater is broken, can you send H over>???? its an emergency!!!........you, out of guilt and shame, kept your secret....SHE went out of her way ....the subterfuge and lies came from her.....you never told her to lie...she however, told you, her friends, our roomate, blah blah....to lie....she made up work to keep you around.....she even llied to you....darn right I have anger directed at her...<P>yes, this is big.....and I do love you...but do YOU really understand that....I LOVE YOU.<P>I HAVE LOVED YOU FOR 13 YEARS. and I so want to BE IN LOVE with you again...<P>don't just become the man YOU THINK I want and need you to be....TALK to me about it, tell me about the process you are undergoing...don't keep putting stuff off...don't start and then stop..fill out the emotional needs questionnaire with me.....do it naked! lets have fun!! just include me in the processes that you are going thru.<P>you said:<P> OW, b*t*ch that she is, still never 'betrayed' anybody or lied to a spouse... I did, and ultimately, I am the the one who did the most horrible thing.<P><BR>yes, she betrayed me........when she knew you were married and having problems, and went out of her way to be what I was not being, she betrayed me......I am a human being on this planet, and I would NEVER do to a wife what she did to me...she had a larger moral responsibility as a member of the human race......well, being human might be a stretch for her....and it disgusts me that you epeatedly 'went back for more'....to a woman who had no regard for your wife and children.....what does that say about you? an essentially good, but confused man....you told her that if your heart did not belong to me, you could have fallen in love with her...<P>YOU COULD FALL IN LOVE WITH A WOMAN WHO WOULD HELP YOU DO THIS TO YOUR WIFE, YOUR CHILDREN, TO YOUR LIFE AS A WHOLE??????<P>excuse me if this makes me question what kind of man you are and if thatis the kind of man i want to spend a lifetime with.....<P>you also said..<P>""This is so screwed. I've been cheated on, and this is not the first time I've cheated on a girlfriend/wife. I've had no probs forgiving or asking pardon in the past, but this time, with Dylan, I feel so so so so so crappy.""<P>crappy? crappy? good word...makes me feel great...maybe that is because this time, you have a wife and child....a whole family unit...maybe because for the first time in your life, you might love somebody more than yourself. maybe your other girlfriends in the past cried, yelled, got angry.....why don't you post here HOW I made you tell me about this...about how bizarrly (sp) calm and reasonable I was...how that freaked you out....maybe this time is different, because we have a 3 yr. old I could take with me...and because of your previous divorce and custody probs, you fully realize how MESSY this could be....<P>maybe you grew a conscience. congrats, honey...welcome to the world of being an adult....OW even said you had to stop being a 15 yr. old mentally...<P>if you are better at writing clearly and concisely, then write....write to me!!! write me a letter!!! and I will NEVER bottle up my feelings ever again...I did that for 2 years and it threw you into her bed....and garage, and couch, and salon bathroom, and wherever else......no more bottling from me, no friggin way.....you want truth? you want my pain? you want my hurt.....re-read the above.....no more protecting you from me....<P><BR>re-read Genie's and Heartaches's posts to you......they are PERFECT.<P>and heartpain, a tanned, oiled, sweaty deut is what she got all summer.....and bragged about it to me...so the visual is a little hard for me to take...or to fantasize to...I KNOW that's what she remembers...<P>this is a bloody novel...maybe we should write a real one honey.....<P>Dylan.<BR>

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Hey Dylan-<P>Here's a hug for ya {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DYLAN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>It is ok for you to be this angry. Somehow the pain and the lack of ever being able to understand how this garbage ever happens to us-by those whom we care for so very much-just plain and simple hurts.<BR>And maybe I am way wrong here but I think after our spouses can screw some damn bimbo without any cares about our self esteem, commitments, children, families and so on then we immediately receive our license to be a *****!!! Sorry soulloss's exH-but those are my feelings. I can say one thing that I know is right on-IF WE DIDN'T BEHAVE POORLY THEN WE WOULDN'T CARE ABOUT WHO YOU DID WHAT WITH AND THEREFORE YOU MIGHT JSUT REALIZE THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY FEELINGS AT ALL. But that isn't the case-we have feelings. Those feelings have been trampled by the betrayer and their sex partners. As adults we have got to take more responsibility for our actions. You betrayers make a choice-to betray or stay faithful. And I for one know that my H wouldn't be half as forgiving as I ahve been towards him. Why is it that the man thinks he can always do as he pleases and then "woops, sorry" and all will be ok. Yet a gal cheats on her H and all hell breaks loose? You go figure-and I don't care who disagrees with me. I am my H's equal-I expect the same actions from him that he expects of me. And while marriages can be in a bad phase all it takes is W-O-R-K to fix it. I don't think sleeping with another person will make anyones problems get any better.<P>I gotta get off here-I am not in a good frame of mind tonight. I am so tired of all the excuses.....................<P>Whatever is meant to be will be.<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR>

You know what? I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right and I even specifically 'gave' Dylan the 'liscense' to be a b*tch. Though I agree with the 'lovebusting' thing, I don't think that bottling pain can in any way be productive or healthy, at least in our relationship. <BR>Dylan has been pretty good about this, very together (at least on outside) and her usage of her liscense has always been fair.<BR>Still, I feel a great deal of shame about what I have and though I have committed myself to letting, even encouraging her to share her pain, it doesn't make it easy or pleasant.<BR>"no duh!" you say...<BR>Again I agree with you, and I don't expect it to be easy or pleasant. In fact I kinda guessed it would be difficult.<BR>When Dylan goes on a 'rant', yes it hurts, because it is true, she is rational and fair and I am faced full-force with the consequences of my actions. Lots of people find that very tough medicine to swallow. That's why most betrayers get so defensive when the betrayed go postal.<BR>Anyway, I want to make this clear (especially to Dylan) I know I can be hard to read. When faced with a rant, I know I go stony faced and look at the floor and cross my arms and legs. I am not in a defensive mindset when this happens. I am struggling with my own emotional turmoil in reaction to witnessing you pain. I think that can be considered normal and acceptable... it is my conscience at work, teaching me a lesson. I am NOT blocking you out at all.<P>The only thing that 'got my hair up was...<BR>"Why is it that the man thinks he can always do as he pleases and then "woops, sorry" and all will be ok. Yet a gal cheats on her H and all hell breaks loose?"<BR>And only because it's a generalization, and while it may even be statistically accurate, it sure isn't true here or among any of the people I would ever call 'friend'. <BR>My post was just me feeling sorry for myself. Not wavering in my commitment, or asking Dylan to ease up. In our case, I think the occaisional lovebust is fair, healthy and neccesary if we are going to work through all aspects of this devastation and move on.<BR>Gotta go, got a movie to watch with Dylan. <BR>wild wild west.. <BR>Deut.

Dear D & D<P>Now I see what my H meant when he said he was being easy on me. I thought the name calling was hard - it was nothing compared to the atomicblast of a letter you wrote Dylan. <P>Jeeze, I feel so much angush for the two of you. It's not even my life and yet I somehow get angry and sad when I read your letters to each other. <P>Dylan, I'd hate to see you make a big scene and spill your heart out infront of the OW (bimbo). Don't give her the satisfaction - from reading what you've said, I doubt very much tthat she carries the capacity to feel remorse for what she did - maybe when it happens to her someday...<P>Also, Dyl, I KNOW how your Deut feels, I'm walking that tightrope myself. It is hard to have to listen to all you had to say on here, and I don't doubt that you say more to him in private. ( I have no eyebrows left since reading your post, they melted off, thank you very much) Just don't forget to show him you love him too, he still needs to hear that.<P>Sheesh.<P>Deut, I'm aware of howtough this is for you. How do you like this tho? My H - Unseen2 tells me of the pleasure utilizing a samauri sword on the OM would bring him, along with other gory details. Yes, I do feel it's directed at me, and I told him so. He has not stopped painting bloody picures of wrath in my head, but was kind enough to tell me that he does NOT mean me.<P>Also, Deut, as a woman, I can tell you what maybe Dylan might want to see coming from you - LOOK at her when she's talking to you - if you start to cry, then cry. HOLD her and don't wait another day to look your soulmate in the eyes and tell her how much you love her and how very eternally sorry and remorseful you are. If you mean it, It will come out. Don't run away like I did for so long. *sigh.<P>Please, i so bad want to see the two of you work things out!!!! Please keep trying - you at least have one nerdball in PA who cares if you DO stay together and wants to see the best things possible happen for you.<P>WHEW!<P>Love, Khyra (loudmouth - see - no eyebrows - i TOLD you!) <p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited December 07, 1999).]

Kyra, <BR>Thanks for your reply, and your advice.<BR>I know what you mean about the 'looking in the eyes' thing, and in fact, thanks to a great book I am reading (7 habits of highly effective people) I've realized that the best way to deal with this is by being PROACTIVE.<BR>That means that instead of REACTING to Dylan's rant, I am meeting it head on. After all, I can sure appreciate how she's feeling, and really, when she rants, I am happy that she's expressing herself to me and not just clamming up.<BR>Here's an example... next time your H tells you he wants to use a Katana (Samurai sword)on Om, you may want to point out that that might be a little bit too... shall we say clean and merciful. Death by sandpaper would be more fitting in relation to how he feels. He doesn't actually want to KILL the OM (I hope) it's just the way he feels. Make sure he knows how grateful you are that he is still talking to you in the first place. (Howse that for a total attitude change since the beginning of this thread)<BR>Dylan tells me she loves me about 20 times a day, and vice versa, and SHOWS me she loves me about 3 times that. We will make it, I'm pretty sure. <BR>thanks again,<BR>Deut

When our problem was discovered, it was due to my neglect of our marriage that she strayed. At the time of discovery I felt I had to do whatever it took to keep her in my life. I took the steps I had to to try and save our marriage. After time though, I noticed that no longer did I feel as if the world revolved around her and indeed was sure that should divorce happen I would be fine on my own. At this time I brought it up with her and discovered that it was a form of maturing on my part and that it wasn't exactly a bad thing at all. Possibly your W is going through much the same process.....