Hi EM.....Hi TL !!!!<P>No Trust.....LOL!! I said to myself when you posted that "she must know that I gotta say something"!!!! You know me too well!!!!<P>I agree with EVERYTHING that you said. <BR>I wish it also!!!<P>But, EM and TL made the decision to divorce - it was their choice and I am glad that they made it together...<P>Should things have happened differently during the "recovery trying" phase? Of course!!! But they didn't...<P>Instead of rehashing.....it's time to grow into the future. They are doing things very well for that goal and that is a great thing!!!!!<P>It is happening this way for a reason!!<P>Time will reveal what that reason is...<P>Hugs to all,<P>Sheba

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scandinavian:<BR><B>Doug,<P>One of the reasons why an affair is wrong is that the "better option"-love can not be compared to your current mature love. Janis Abrahms Spring author of "After an affair" describes how your body produces chemical substances during this first stage of an affair (amphetamin like) and later endorphins. One of the effects is that you will give all your lover says/does a positive prefix while you give all your spouse says/does a negative prefix.<BR>Your "better option"-love will not stay like that forever, but when you're in it I think you refuse to admit that to yourself (since you're in a fog).<P>I understand that it doesn't always work the way that your spouse gets out of the marriage before finding a new partner, but it should. There's no excuses for an affair.<P>BTW: I recommend this books to all people that take interest in this discussion. It's known as a very balanced book and it's quite good at describing how both parts feel.<P>scandinavian</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Scandinavian:<P>Once more, I didn't say or mean to imply that the "better option" really was better. (That was the purpose of all my quotes.) I meant that the OP APPEARS to be a better option, when compared to the current state of the spouse's marriage. Until the appearance of the OP, the frustration can fester on, with no relief in sight. For pete's sake, I know what a lackluster, frustrating marriage is like. My parents had one, and now I have one, too. <P>My point is, that usually, the affair is the catalyst which prompts a consideration of divorce. Until then, divorce is not usually considered, even when the spouse feels no hope of improvement. He/she usually just withdraws. So, saying the divorce should happen first, is like saying winter should come before fall. It's not gonna happen.<P>Girlfriend:<P>You're STILL here? <p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 26, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:<BR><B> My point is, that usually, the affair is the catalyst which promts a consideration of divorce. Until then, divorce is not usually considered. So, saying the divorce should happen first, is like saying winter should come before fall. It's not gonna happen.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Doug, <P>I say this with all sincerity- Thanks for clarifying your position. It seemed at first to be something else. <P>I still agree that being tempted to have an affair is a catalyst, but still also say that it SHOULD BE a catalyst to ask yourself what is wrong with your current relationship. Affairs DO NOT have to follow arousal or impulse. When I was vulnerable, a nice looking, fat walleted, young, successful guy came smiling my way. I admit. I turned my head, but still ran the other way. <P>If people slow down and take the time to discover what their feelings mean, they can avoid so much hurt. In my case, the man I was attracted to looked like someone devoted to family (he spent a lot of time with his parents), and someone who would be faithful to me (he said he didn't want to have an affair and actually stopped talking to me!) I was looking for someone to value family and who would turn down other women in favor of me. I didn't have to have an affair to find that out. AND I didn't have to have an affair to know that what things look like on the outside aren't necessarily what they are on the inside. For all I know, this guy could be a child molester, alcoholic who loves his mom- so I'd only be getting a small bit of the fantasy and at what cost?<P>Anyway, I am kind of rambling off the topic. My point was that if we are mature people, the catalyst doesn't have to lead to affairs, but perhaps self discovery and a stronger relationship in the one you already committed to. I hope that people don't give up their values because of "something better".

The development of romantic feelings for someone outside of the marriage and ACTING on those feelings by engaging in an affair are 2 totally separate things IMHO. Certainly my wife felt lonely and unfulfilled in our marriage and never considered divorce. When she began to feel a certain way towards another, alarms should have started to go off. When she was certain of her feelings but before she revealed them to him, she should have done something regarding us. That would have been the honorable and moral thing to do. Once she acted on those feeling and began her affair, she crossed the line. The notion that the affair is the real catalyst is unfair to all betrayed. That any spouse could have the kinds of feelings for another that are exclusively reserved for your spouse should be the catalyst. Not wanting to face the issue and instead "hiding" in a fanatsy world is the act of true cowards. Once the WS come out of the fantasy, faces the marital issues and takes active steps to resolve them (it still may lead to divorce), then they begin to show some courage. We can't often control our feelings but we have absolute control over our actions.<P>OK, it must be time for my meds again.

Gonnatry- You are absolutely right about feelings that develop and making the right decision to not act upon them when inappropriate. Still, it is not always as simple as just dealing with the issues inside the marriage. In my case over the years I wrote numerous letters to my husband, tried to have many conversations, etc. I expressed all my feelings, frustrations, etc to him. Since he is a conflict avoider, he chose to ignore it all - seemed more comfortable, I guess. I finally reached a point of absolute despair and one of the final letters I wrote to him told of my absolute despair and giving up on expecting anything from the marriage. That didn't mean I was giving up on the marriage, just giving up on expecting anything from him for myself. What I realize now is that you can't keep giving and giving without putting yourself in an extremely vulnerable position. Let me say we probably looked like a model couple to most people, were always polite, etc. But the only way I could keep from being so frustrated and even angry was to give up all expectations of him (after all, people say you can't change someone else, so change yourself and also that women especially "expect" too much). I never ever intended to respond to the affections of another man, never even looked or considered that as an option. I always had a strong guard around myself, but...<P>I am not justifying myself. I just want to say that people don't always have an affair to avoid issues at home. Sometimes they have done everything they can think of to work on the relationship and yet it takes two. <BR>

Sifted Like Wheat:<P>If you were unhappy for years why did you stay married? You say you tried everything did you ever discuss separation/divorce? Certainly separation/divorce would have been the lesser of two evils.

TMD - I don't necessarily think separation/divorce would be the lesser of two evils, especially when children are involved. I made a stumble and am trying to find my way back. There are hurts, but my family is still together. I am putting my hope into the opportunity to build a good/great relationship and keep an intact family. I have seen examples of that on this forum and that is my hope also.

Sifted:<P>So are you saying having an affair is less of an evil than a divorce?! Personally I don't think parents getting a divorce is really so traumatic. My parents divorced due to my father's affairs and that was definitely better than them staying together.

One more thing that kept me married: it is called commitment. Yes, I stumbled, but I'm not leaving.<P>By the way commitment means more than wearing a ring on your finger and keeping your body at home. It means building into a relationship, being a part of another's life, supporting another, being committed to working on the relationship.

I've noticed that we all speak out of our own personal experiences. In your case it looks like your father had affairs (plural) and wasn't going to change from that so your parents finally divorced. I am not saying that is better. But sometimes there is a stumble, repentance, turning back and rebuilding. I think that is better than divorce.

Maybe there is no real answer to my question. To me there is just something not quite consistent about someone who has an unhappy marriage and won't consider divorce but has an affair. Maybe others will answer on TL thread <p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited May 26, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B>One more thing that kept me married: it is called commitment. Yes, I stumbled, but I'm not leaving.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>SLW: Please don't take this next comment personally but, IMO, "committment to the marriage" and "affair" do not belong in the same sentence. "I was committed to my marriage so I had a affair instead of a divorce". That just doesn't cut it. My wife basically used this one on me saying she didn't leave or ask me to leave because she was committed to our marriage. The fact is she did leave our marriage and trampled over everything we had built together in the process. While I fully accept my role in creating the environment, her decision to engage in an affair was her's and her's alone (well, OM had some say in this). Now we are separated but have a fair chance at reconciliation. So what's the greater evil here? We ended up with both of them anyway (the affair and separation). I feel that it could have still been "kicked off" without actually entering the "affair" stage.<P>I applaud your decision to remain in the marital relationship, accept responsibility, address the issues, and attempt reconciliation. I wish you success and a long and happy "new" relationship with your H.<BR>

What has made me hesitant to post replies in the past (and hence open up my life to others I don't even know) is partly the fact that there is only a little bit of space and time to try and explain yourself. That can lead to a lot of misunderstandings, since no one knows the specifics of anyone else's situation. Add to that the fact that most people are speaking out of their own individual hurts and pain coming from different specific circumstances and you get a lot of comments, which you aren't to take personally, but do hit you anyway. Especially since most everyone here has fragile feelings from the pain, including myself.<P>But I'll try a little more: I didn't put commitment and affair in the same sentence. By commitment I was addressing the question: "why stay in the marriage if you are so unhappy". Because not every moment of it was unhappy, you try and hope for a better relationship, you have children...<P>Why an affair then? I've seen many here try to explain that, never with satisfactory explanations, especially to those who have been on the betrayed side. Maybe you can't explain it. You certainly don't set out to do it. I guess there never is a good enough reason, so I won't even try. I do remember reading in Torn Asunder that every affair has a "message" and it is important for both spouses to learn what that is and learn from it. Maybe it is better to concentrate on that, rather than try and find a good enough reason to defend why it happened. The only other thing I know is that before I ever did anything like this, I used to think: "how could anyone ever do anything like that". Well, I have more understanding (and I'm not saying tolerance!) for these kinds of struggles than I ever had before.

Wow....I missed this post. I have not had time to read all....just have nothing better to do on a Friday night but work myself into this brawl.<P>If I repeat anything...I am sorry. First and formost...my stbx had MY phone disconnected.....our youngest has allergic asthma.....I was without a phone for 3 days....then when I had it reconnected....80 dollar fee.....it was again disconnected because some "lady" pretending to be me said "I" wanted it disconnected.<P>I wish that I was "nice" enough to wish the betrayer and the OP a nice life. I don't feel that way....sorry TL and EM.<P>In TL's defense....people who are betrayed and hurt and in pain do a lot of things that "normal" people don't. Rash decisions and doing things without thinking....certainly happen....just look at what the betrayer did. <P>Some of the betrayers biggest sayings are....I didn't know what was happening until it was too late.....or it just happened.....or I didn't realize that it would hurt you until it was too late. <P>So we need to forgive the betrayer....but the betrayer can't forgive us for doing some foolish....destructive things.<P>Betrayers find comfort in selfish acts....we forgive....the betrayed finds comfort in selfish acts....and we are mental...crazy....mean...horrible, nasty people.<P>We, the betrayed can't stop thinking of what the betrayer did...we hurt so much. The betrayer can't stop thinking of OP.....so they don't hurt so much.<P>Double standards.<P>Betrayed.....we internalize are every move. We try to forgive...forget and continue with our love and commitment.<P>Betrayers......they internalize the OP every move. They can't forgive the spouse for any faults they may have had in the marriage...so they have an affair.....<P>TL I did some rotten things...I called OW....I called her H and told him about my findings.....I was arrested. I lost my children for 44 days. I was not allowed to have any contact with them because MY STBX thought "I" was irrational, mean, selfish...the bad guy. But did I deserve all of this? Think about it....would I have even known this woman to have called her....if he would not have gotten involved with her.<P>This woman had dinner with my H....went out for drinks with my H.....shopped with my H....while his wife and children waited for him to come home.....kept dinner warm....waited on him hand and foot. Did she have any regards to the fact that every time he PAID for all of her "friendship" that took money and in fact took food out of my childrens mouth....took money away from buying them clothes....and took money away from our children having the things they would have loved to have.<P>Then she went home and crawled in bed with her H.....and did it all over again.<P>This woman has costs me thousands of dollars....from divorce...to couseling....to custody battle...all because she and he were selfish and only thought of themselves.<P>Maybe I do hope Mia and EM are happy....or for that matter all those who betrayed their spouses and are with the OP right now.....you deserve each other. Have fun looking over your shoulders....trust..can you?

SLW - I am beginning to understand somewhat the dynamics that come into play when an affair is involved in marital conflict. I do not condone what EM chose to do, nor am I helping him justify his actions. But I can empathize with the struggles you are dealing with. <P>You were very eloquent in stating that no one here knows what has transpired in the history of these marriages people post about other than the posters themselves. There will probably never be a simple, quick fix, easy answer for anything. Just alot of us who have experienced similar though certainly not the same circumstances and want to share our journey of anger, hurt, frustration, recovery, or in my case, divorce. Thank you for sharing your point of view.

I apologize for my post...obviously...I am not over all of this pain.<P>Nancy

Mental...I'm so sorry for your pain. I do agree with you, though. Although my H is no longer involved in his affair, it angers me that he even spent any money on that stupid bimbo of his. We don't have a lot of money and the money that he spent on her, could have gone towards food & clothing for our kids. He stole "family money" and precious time that was rightfully ours.<P>I DON'T empathize with any OW/OM that gets together with a MM/MW and marries them. It doesn't fly with me! It never will!

Popeye, No Trust, etc. - Right on!! I don't see so much "why" from the betrayers as the hows - how it happened, justifications, etc. How about this for honesty (what really could be in some cases, the reason why betrayers are not honest, won't confront the spouse, honestly work on the marriage, or end the marriage first cleanly, etc.)? "I didn't want to do the hard work involved in trying to save my marriage. I just wanted out, but only if there was someone offering me a better deal. I really don't care that my spouse is hurt or that I have betrayed my morals - my feelings and my own happiness and my own needs are the only things that matter. The marriage is over for me, but I shouldn't have had to do anything to save it - I was unhappy because of what the spouse did/did not do. If a relationship is right, it's right, you shouldn't have to make such a huge effort. My feelings for this new person are real, and I must get involved because if I feel this way about another person, it must mean that I no longer love my spouse. Besides, what if I lose out on my one real chance for happiness? And, if it doesn't work out, I can always go back to my marriage and "make do" until the next "better deal" comes along. But, of course I won't put any real effort into the marriage anymore. Someone is sure to come along that is more "suitable" for me and that will make me happier than my spouse. Since I don't really love my spouse anyway, I'm doing him/her a favor by leaving." Does that just about do it? I'm sorry - but this "I didn't mean to do it, it just happened, I am not that kind of person", etc. just doesn't cut it! Obviously, if you did it, you are that kind of person!! We, as human beings should strive to control our emotions, not let them control us!! Who's in charge anyway - you, or your emotions/"feelings"? Sorry this is so harsh, but "hedging one's bets" with an affair is beyond cruel and uncaring, and not a good reflection on one who engages in this type of behavior. As someone else already said, do honor, decency, and moral values mean nothing? Are we all just creatures ruled by our emotions, with no thought to consequences? (Now donning flameproof gear!!!)

Sorry - double post!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited May 30, 2000).]

.....and then we could always get into the discussion of those that have affairs, but claim it hurt no one til the betrayed found out! Cold & calculated or addicted? cl<BR>