Step 2 in the Forgiveness workbook is to "Recognize that your anger is not only normal, but necessary."<P>cl <BR>Step 1 is in FHL's thread from this morning.<BR>I think you're supposed to deal with that first so do it quickly so that you can get on to your legitimate anger.<P>The basic gist of this is that when we try to forgive we assume that we should remove all anger. WRONG!<BR>Feelings of anger are normal because:<BR>1. when we open ourselves to another we expect to be treated decently.<BR>2. we feel betrayed<BR>3. the betrayal goes against our morals. Sometimes we feel if give up the anger we give up our morals.<BR>4. feelings of loss continue long after the wrong act itself.<P>If we fight against the normal process and don't accept our anger as a normal, human emotion, we make the process more difficult. We can choose to forgive but we must allow the process of healing to happen. That means admitting that our emotions are legitimate.<P>BTW<BR>No smart comments about my spelling this morning Okay? When I'm in the dragon mode my spelling goes out the window!!!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited August 23, 1999).]

Thanks Wassi, Good stuff for understanding this burden that we carry. The anger is there but we still must try to think about why. That is the first step in getting it to go away. If it ever does. I still carry a lot of it and probably always will to some extent. Understanding why helps me deal with it. <P>No one has complained about my spelling for a while. I guess the spellers just got tired of it.

fighter<BR>I think you should dust off that book.<BR>According to the workbook, anger is the emotion of self preservation. Anger lets us stand up for our rights and morals. So we shouldn't try to squash it. It is an enabling emotion as long as we keep bitterness out of it.<BR>So do we spend too much time defeating ourselves by trying to get rid of a normal, useful emotion?<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited August 23, 1999).]

True Wassi. I try to hold no more than I need to and dispose of none that has not been delt with. For instance, I am still mad at my MIL for her role in this mess but I understand why. There is a whole range of issues that are involved in that. Not right away or soon, but someday maybe.

Emotions......<P>Emotions are part of being human, and from a Christian standpoint - God gave us emotions. I believe emotions are a result of what we believe. <P>And in terms of the emotion - anger, anger is legitimate because if step number one was identifying the offense as wrong - and an attack on our values, anger is the natural emotion we would feel following violating what we believed was right..... (anyone with me?)<P>So - anger is normal, acceptable, and justifiable. What we do with it is step 3?<P>cl, bozo's deb - are you listening??????<P>

tnt<BR>Step three is getting rid of the bitterness -realizing how it can hurt us.<BR>So we recognized the emotions, validate them and get rid of the undesirable parts of them. Use them to our advantage.<BR>I have to go out for a drive now to try step three! Keep talking.<BR>cl requested this one so she better be paying attention!

Angry ? me ? Angry ? Not me, I'm not supposed to be angry, good wives, daughters, sisters, friends, Christians don't get angry, maybe thats why I never claim to be a good any of the above.<BR> Yes I am angry, I'm angry and hurt that even though he had left me for a wildebeast and had 2 very inappropreate "friendships" with other women, I forgave him, and he repaid me by cheating on me again. I hate being angry. It isn't the way I want to be, but there it is. I mean he may as well have spit in my face, same disrespect.<BR>Sorry.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

DEB!!<BR>The point is that it's okay for you to be angry! You have a right to be angry. This is a christian book! God gave you your emotions for a reason. Accept them. Use them to build your strength and character. Don't waste your energy trying to get rid of them.<BR>

You guys are sprinting ahead of me today. OK I'm back on anger.<P>What WS said was all right on target. However, rereading it, what I got out of it is how we sometimes mistake lingering anger or reoccuring anger as evidence we did not forgive...and if we wanted to forgive, this may cause us to feel guilty or to stuff the anger. Because we are human and can not do quite the job God does, we still remember and we will be setting ourself up for failure if we assume we can be as complete as God in the forgiveness process. We need to learn what to do with the anger. We must resolve bitter anger, but learn from and manage normal anger.<P>There are healthy by-products of anger that can help us to resolve to make the necessary changes or precautions that we are not mistreated or make the same mistake again. In other words, learn from our experiences. <P>When we open our life to another we want to be treated decently. When our trust is violated we feel betrayed and disillusioned, even more so when it was someone intimate. When we strive to forgive, we do not need to deny these emotions.<P>If a betrayal involves a moral act, which of course ours does, the pain is usually deeper. Our anger at injustice is what causes us to stand up for what is right. Without anger, we may demonstrate little or no concern for morals. That would certainly be sending the wrong message to our spouses. We hurt because we don't want to let go of our convictions. So as we move toward forgiveness we can remove the need for punishment or vengeance, but not the need to hold on to our values...so often the legitimate anger can not be removed. <P>Forgiveness does not remove all grief in our own hearts. Healing takes a long while and there may always be a sense of loss, especially if the damage can not be repaired (like divorce).<P>To sum up Forgiveness is being committed to the process of healing, not feeling healed of all emotions at all times. In your willingness to forgive, however, you can choose not to exaggerate your reactions to your feelings. In other words...we can feel it, but we don't have to act on our feelings in negative ways.<P>A very valuable lesson for one that is anger stunted such as I.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

wonder if step 4 could be interpreted as "if we give up our anger, we give up our little piece of control"?? We give up the one constant that has become our new companion?<BR>Uhoh, here we go again!! No, not back to control!! <BR>Let me pnder this for the afternoon!<BR>Thanks ws.

Deb - What Bozo did was WRONG WRONG WRONG and you are absolutely correct in labeling it so.<P>1) Wrong because a marriage promises to be truthful.<P>2) Wrong because a marriage promises to be faithful.<P>3) Wrong because your forgave him and he did it again.<P>4) Wrong because he exposed you to STD's.<P>5) Wrong because he lied.<P>6) Wrong because he allows himself not to be satisfied with sex with you. He had to have more.<P>7) Wrong because he did something immoral (My God a 3-some)<P>8) Wrong because he not only betrayed you but OM<P>9) Wrong because he lied to you every lunch, and every day he was living a double life<P>And we can go on and on about how wrong the wrong was, go ahead and post all the rest of them! Identify them!!! It was wrong! <P>Does he admit it was wrong? That was step one.<P>Are you angry? Yes you are angry!!!! Step two. Maybe you can go through this process of identifying and releasing on this board.<P>We care soooo much about you, and do not want you to suffer any more for what happened in your lives. We value you and want you well. I've been praying for you today. Deb, you are not bad for being angry or knowing that he did wrong, or for staying with Bozo. You are not bad at all. You are a gift to us, to Bozo and to this whole human race. You are a wonderful friend and wife. You are not the one who should be suffering with depression because of all of this. Depression is anger turned inward - and let's help you get that anger turned somewhere else. <P>God Bless You.

FHL<BR>Sorry I jammed on you. My kid took over the computer and right now my anger is wayyyyyyy beyond legitimate!!!! <BR>I'll try and get back on track later.

We (and I don't mean each and every one of us, but those that are dealing with forgiveness/ander/resentment) often think that anger is a bad emotion. After all most of us were raised in puritanical america and canada, where anger was not acceptable. It is okay to be upset, but actually angry? Oh, then we should pray, go to confession, do the penance and the anger miraculously floats away. So, I ended up feeling guilty that I still felt angry! Huh?<BR>Now why would a person that has been wronged feel guilty? That was a long time ago, thank goodness! One of the most importatnt things I learned as a teen was that anger is okay!! Anger can empower you, but careful with this one. There is a line....too much anger is unhealthy! Not enough, and one is stunted-cannot express the true level of pain felt? <BR>WS, I am paying attention. ANd anger at kid for not sharing is legit!<BR>

cl<BR>How did you manage to learn that as a kid????<BR>That is another thing the workbook refers to.<BR>I don't have it handy but in one of the first two chapters it helps us see how we were trained as children to feel ashamed of our legitimate emotions. Boy did I have a good lesson in that. My brothers were the temper tantrum type. If they had a tantrum it was legitamate because it was probably my fault that they were mad. That one is a very long story that I won''t go into but that was how I was trained. I couldn't be angry at them but if they were angry it was my fault.<BR>So I was always ashammed of any emotion that wasn't positive. Even now I feel that I have failed because I couldn't beat these emotions.

Yes, WS and cl, I think we are getting it...now is Uprooting bitterness in this thread or should we label a new thread as step three...or are you guys way past me already?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

morning all,<BR>new thread for chapter three please!! <BR>One of my goals is to keep myself organized-so I am pushing it off on you too. But it is your thread, and I will follow it wherever it is posted. <BR>I learned that anger is okay as a teenager. Probably had a lot to do with a school counselor, loving grandmother, and some church issues within the family. Suddenly my eyes were opened and the guilt was gone. What a great feeling-I remember it clearly since it was at the time I left for college at 16.

Step 2 in the forgiveness workbook

The Student requested these, but everyone is welcome to revisit! This is Step #2 by the way.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<BR>I think I understand why I'm getting stuck in the anger mode. People are telling me I'm not supposed to be angry or not allowed to be angry because "divorce is just part of the consequences". So then, if I get angry, then either I feel, or other people tell me (?), that I'm irresponsible or not dealing with the consequences. But my anger is still there!! All of you here on this website are proving that divorce is not the natural consequence. I can agree that confessing and dealing with my H's feelings were part of the consequences, but not divorce. That was his deal, and that is what I'm angry about. Ok, nuff said.

Here's something that I found helpful. It is from a book by Lewis B. Smedes called "Forgive and Forget." I highly recommend it. This chapter deals with anger, forgiveness and love being present at the same time.<P>Chapter 14 – With Anger Left Over<P>Is there anger after forgiving?<BR> Yes, often. It can't be helped.<BR> Some people believe that they should not feel anger in their hearts once they forgive.<BR> I do not agree. I think that anger and forgiving can live together in the same heart. You are not a failure at forgiving just because you are still angry that a painful wrong was done to you.<BR> It is terribly unrealistic to expect a single act of forgiving to get rid of all angry feelings.<BR> Anger is the executive power of human decency. If you do not get angry and stay angry when a bad thing happens, you lose a piece of your humanity.<BR> Remember, you cannot erase the past, you can only heal the pain it has left behind.<BR> When you are wronged, that wrong becomes an indestructible reality of your life. When you forgive, you heal your hate for the person who created that reality. But you do not change the facts. And you do not undo all of their consequences. The dead stay dead; the wounded are often crippled still. The reality of evil and it damage to human beings is not magically undone and it can still make us very mad.<BR> A man does not forget that his father abused him as a child. A woman does not forget that her boss lied to her about her future in the company. You do not forget that a person you loved has taken cheap advantage of you and dropped you when the relationship was not paying off. I dare say that Jesus has not forgotten that a man named Judas betrayed him. And survivors of the holocaust do not forget the hell of that experience.<BR> And when you do remember what happened, how can you remember except in anger?<BR> Can you look back on the painful moment–or painful years– without a passionate, furious, aching longing that what hurt you so much had never happened? Some people probably can. But I don't think you should expect such placid escape from terrible memories. You can be angry still, and you can have your anger without hate.<BR> Once you start on your forgiving journey, you will begin to lose the passion of malice. Malice goes while anger lingers on. When forgiving begins its liberating work, the malice that once hissed like white flame from acetylene torch begins to fizzle out.<BR> A man slowly finds himself wishing his ex-wife well in her new marriage. A father is surprised at how desperately he wants his rebellious daughter to be happy. We wish a blessing on the frail humanity of the person who hurt us, even if we were hurt unfairly and deeply.<BR> What is happening? Malice is gradually fading, just as your head gradually stops pounding after you take three aspirin. You have anger without malice–a sign that your forgiving is real.<BR> Anger minus malice gives hope. Malice, unrelieved will gradually choke you. But anger can goad you to prevent the wrong from happening again. Malice keeps the pain alive and raw inside your feelings, anger pushes you with hope toward a better future.<BR> There are three things you can do to drain the poison of malice while you use the energy of anger. They may be worth trying.<BR> First, express your malice. Be specific, nail the object of your fury down. It doesn't help to throw it at people, either. But you need to express it to somebody who can help you get rid of it. You can express it secretly to God, or to someone who represents God to you.<BR> Then you can let God handle those people you would like to manhandle in your hate. If they need teaching, let God teach them. If they need rescuing from their own stupidity, let God rescue them. If they need saving from their own crazy wickedness, let God save them. What you need is healing from the infection of malice left over from the open wounds they left in your life.<BR> Finally, you can even try a prayer for the peace of the person you hate.<BR> If you do, you may discover another secret of forgiving; you don't have to choke your anger, you only have to surrender your malice. For your sake. Malice is misery that needs healing. Anger is energy that needs direction. After malice, let anger do its reforming work. Forgiving and anger can be partners in a good cause.<P>