NoMas,<P>I have some trepidation about posting this to you, but I have wanted to for quite a while. You have been a huge help to others on this board, and I do not mean to insult you in any way, but I've got to ask you a few questions.<P>Why, NoMas, if you feel like your wife can help you do you not open up to her and be honest? You have read thousands of posts from betrayed, like myself, that have said they began to deal with this mess better when they knew the whole truth. I do not mean to be rude, but when will the time come for you to tell your wife you are still in love with another?<P>I know you don't want to hurt your wife, but isn't it time for her healing, and yours to begin. So, she doesn't want to go to MB and learn, neither do many spouses on here, but that does not stop so many of us from trying to do the right thing. Let me say that the moment I knew the TRUTH about my husband and his affair, I began to heal a little. I no longer have to listen to lies. I no longer have to wonder why he's the way he is to me and I no longer have to think that I'm crazy and unlovable.<P>Please NoMas, your wife has got to know why you are so sad. Give her a chance to be your friend and help you. Maybe, just maybe your faith in your wife will be restored enough for you to get this other woman out of your mind. You are not giving your wife a chance. What will it take for you to move on?<P>You have been here long enough and learned enough to know you will hurt your wife in the worst possible way, but aren't you tired of being stuck where you are? I think all of the betrayed here will agree with me...the worst part of all of this is the lying, not who my H slept with or cared about. When I look back on my experinces, the lying and covering up hurt way worse than the actual infidelity.<P>NoMas, just think. You are taking the easy way out by fence-sitting day after day. Only you know what your wife can handle, and you can tell me to mind my own business if you want to, but give her a chance. I know you're afraid, because being honest with your wife will force you to make a decision to give up OW once and for all, but will that really be so much worse than the perpetual hell you seem to be in?<P>Just had to get this off my chest. It is not intended as a flame in any way.<BR>allison

I agree with Allison. The thought of my now ex living with me, but in love with someone else, and me not aware of it, still haunts me. Its the lies that are the worse and right now you are living a lie.

Looking back, I believe God gave me the grace to deal with what would have been way beyond my ability.<P>Although I wouldn't recommend infidelity to my worst enemy, I am proud that I walked through the fire and came out have grown from the experience. For whatever reason, I think God used or is using the whole experiece to accomplish my purpose and although I can't say it feels this way yet, I believe the whole experience will be a blessing to my marriage.<P>My H was trying to walk away when I discovered it. He says he never meant for me to know and gave some ridiculous denials, given the evidence that he left (he may as well put up a billboard on the highway). Even though I am still struggling with recovery 18 months later, I would choose knowing to not knowing.<P>Even if my H was successful ending it, I don't think, no I know, we could not have experienced the growth that we have in our marriage (and our marriage was always good).<P>If you would have interviewed my H before I discovered, he would have legitimately told you I couldn't handle it, wouldn't react well and nothing good would come from it. He would have been wrong. You may be, too.<P>Just my own experience. <P>

Thank you db and FHL for replying to my post. FHL, I could not have put it so eloquently if I tried. Your thoughts mirror what I was trying so hard to explain to NoMas. If our WS would have given us a try, had a little faith in our ability to help them, things would have certainly gotten a lot better a lot quicker.<P>Honesty is a hard, hard thing to handle. My H and I (and I pray it is true) have promised only one thing to one another right now. Total honesty. This was a big plunge for me to take, as it hurts like hell when he says things like he has no depth of love for me, but AT LEAST I KNOW. I have a starting point when there is honesty. I know I can never live without it, ever again. It's more important that trust, faith, hope.<P>I certainly don't mean to come here and upset NoMas. He is doing a wonderful job giving us betrayed a side of all of this that we NEED to know. I just don't want you, NoMas, to stay in the cycle you seem to be in. Your lack of honesty is doing nothing but taking up time...time for you to hurt. Give your wife a break NoMas. She may surprise you as to the kind of woman she is. I know my husband (and many other WS here) are in amazement as to how I handled this. He expected me to commit suicide upon discovery. I told him that our kids deserve one sane parent (me) and I was certainly not going to deny them that. (Ok, it was a little LB, but I was due).<P>allison

I AGREE!<P>NoMas, I posted you on one of your other threads (long - I get carried away sometimes! ).<P>You're not giving your wife a shot at this. You're not respecting her right to know (not to mention her right to know she's not paranoid & nuts, because believe me, she knows *something* is very wrong).<P>You owe your wife, your marriage, and YOURSELF, more. I would urge you to tell her. *Of course* you're feeling all alone right now - you've shut out your wife! And unless I miss my guess, she's hunkering down with her head in the sand and her eyes screwed shut, praying that her suspicions aren't true. So she's not exactly greeting *you* with open arms right now either (been there, done that, during Dunc's "wild times").<P>What you're doing now isn't working, right? Break the pattern. Tell her. She might turn out to be the best friend you ever had. You owe her the chance to save your marriage. And I don't think you will regret doing so. Please go read my other post to you. Good luck.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

***sigh****<P>I know...I know. I hear you all loud and clear. No offenses taken or feeling "torched". <P>I am just standing here...still "rubbing my belly" like the kid who did a belly flop off the high dive an hour ago. You just don't get in a hurry to try that again. But I am open to your input here so let me try and give you some brief background to what I am dealing with.<P>A little over a year ago, I was in a new work situation and found myself being very tempted by another woman there. I had never struggled with this in my 18 years of marriage. It was very frightening to me. I felt like I was headed down a slippery slope with no traction to stop me. I came across this site and devoured the material and read the book "His Needs/Her Needs". The lights went on for me. I knew what the problem was.<P>I hesitated telling my wife as she was bogged down with school and helping with our 3 kids. I didn't want to add to her burden with her worrying about me at work. I thought I could finish the year with no problem. A good male friend who I cried out too insisted I tell her. So I did. It seemed to irritate her more than anything. She could not understand how this could happen. I tried to get her to read the book...and talk about it...but she told me in so many words, that betweeen school and the kids....she just didn't have it in her to help me out. <P>I don't think she really understood the extent of the problem. Someone said this well in a post to me today. It was as if she was telling me to work it out myself. She was even a bit miffed over the fact I could even be tempted. Guess she was a bit naive here. This had never been a problem in the marrige. So I came to this forum under another name. I was in the fight for my life in resisting these feelings at work. I ended up meeting someone here who offered much support. We got too close. She became my emotional support...friend...and then...."love". We both were making huge deposits in each other....emailing, calls, etc.<P>Fast forward....we ended up meeting in person in Dec. for a brief visit. There was some sexual contact, but no intercourse. The guilt was overwhelming. We both confessed to our spouses shortly after and said goodbye.<BR>Naturally, my wife was shocked beyond description. I was so broken...partly for the pain I had caused her...and partly for breaking off contact with someone who had become very, very close to me.<BR>After the initial shock...about the only question my wife had for me was "Did you have oral sex?"<BR>Well....if that was the extent of questions I was going to have to field, it seems like something was wrong here. Obviously, I would not know how I would initially respond to that whole deal if the tables were turned. But given what I know now...and my nature, I am sure...I would be consumed with finding out "WHY" this had happened..and make sure I did ALL I knew to do as a spouse to see that there was never a need for it to happen again.<BR>There has never been any indication of interest on her part to discuss the matter further. It was like...I want this whole thing to be out of sight and out of mind. She had one semester of school to finish...and there was a danger of it all going down the tube. She chose not to deal with it...or address any of the issues. Several weeks later, me and the OW resumed contact and have grown even closer. We have never entertained the idea of leaving spouses to pursue a life together.<P>Yes...I am living a lie. It is a roller coaster. The mood swings are draining me. I am sure my wife knows "something" is up...but thinks it is my problem and not ours. No...she is unaware, or WAS unaware, of the seriuosness of where are marriage had drifted to. But it is like an ultra-sensitive subject to talk about...the marriage thing. I don't understand this. Perhaps she/we took each other for granted. I have wanted to talk to her...and share my struggle. But there was the fear of sabatoging her schooling...then her high pressure job she just started...the test she had to take for state boards, etc. Yes...there have been some lies...not many, ;because there have been few questions.<BR>One night, on the way to church, it was just the two of us in the car. She ask out of the blue..."Have you been in contact with the OW?" Like I am supposes to tell her "yes" two minutes before walking into church? Her timing on her few questions always seem to invite a short, easy answer. <BR>I am ashamed to the max that I lied to her. I've never done that before. <BR>At this point, I am not even sure what it is I am afraid of seeing if I do put it all on the table. I feel so emotionally dead now at home...that somehow...I feel like nothing would phase me. She might just want to leave, or have me leave. <BR>These things get so complicated...with kids, nineteen years together...jobs...finances...positions in church/community...etc. There does not seem to be an easy answer.<BR>But I do agree....with you all....there has been no headway at all living this path I am on now.<BR>Sorry for the rambling...but I feel like there have been two "belly-flops" already in trying to address some issues here. So you can see my reluctance in trying again.<BR>There are so many people in this community and within our families who would be just devestated if the marriage failed. The darkness continues to swallow me up. I am even struggling in my faith right now...because when I was facing the first situation at work, I cried out to God and did everything I knew to do...to get help. I don't mean to "blame God" here...but I guess I just didn't hear Him or see his escape route. Only one person in the whole world seemed to understand where I was at and seemed willing to help me durring that difficult time. She just happened to be the person I met here...and fell in love with.<P>Bottom line is this....if my wife seemed miffed that I was even "tempted" to begin with, and with a woman whom I had absolutely no inappropriate converation or actions with; and then when I do stumble and cross over some lines...there is no serious or even half-way serious inquiries as to what might be going on in my life and in our marriage, then tell me this...what can I expect now...after revealing where I am at six months later..after my disclosure of driving 500 miles to meet another woman who I became fond of? <P>I hate belly-flops and high dives. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited June 25, 2000).]

NoMas,<P>There will never be the perfect time to admit your deceit to your wife. You just tell her.<P>Your W already senses a problem. You had an opportune moment to tell her when she confronted you with the question. But instead, you lied.<P>You may think that she doesn't sense anything, but trust me....betrayers are NOT that good at covering things up. Sure, you may deny it to her, but she STILL can sense that something is wrong.<P>I can understand why, out of the blue, she asked you if you have had contact with that OW lately. I have done this myself, to my H.<P>There have been times when I would just bottle up everything inside of me because I didn't want to Lovebust or have a unpleasant confrontation. But then, my emotions would get the best of me, and I would ask him unusual questions (pertaining to his affair) at the most unexpected moments.<P>You keep finding excuses NOT to tell your W. Why do you feel that she doesn't deserve to know? Do you think that she deserves to be with someone who doesn't love her completely?<P>You need to stop being selfish. Your W is an adult and can handle it. You either tell her and both of you work on the problem...OR just leave and let her find & be with someone who will love her completely.<P>What would you do if the role were reversed? Would you rather know? OR, would you rather continue to be deceived by your W?<P>You are short-changing your marriage, yourself, your W and your family. All for someone you REALLY DON'T even know.<P>What is so great about this OW whereas she would continue to be on this charade with you? Does she even give a rat's a$$ about your family? Does she care about your W? Does she care about you? If she did care, she would do the right thing and STAY AWAY!<P>Being a forum member, this OW knows the Harley principles. She knows what she should do and what she shouldn't do. Shame on her and shame on you!<P>I apologize if this is harsh but I don't understand why you continue to be on this merry-go-round when you DO have options. Now go do the right thing!<BR>

NoMas: I really can sympathize with your position. I can only speak from my side as the betrayed wife. Maybe she is ignoring the whole thing, hoping it will all go away and she won't have to deal with it. I was angry and hurt beyond belief when I was finally told about OW, because I couldn't believe things were actually bad enough in his eyes to have begun an affair. It never occured tome that after 28 yrs of marriage that he would actually entertain the thought of leaving for another woman, who was 2 yrs older than him. What I have learned through all this anger, is that I finally had tolook at myself and the things I did that caused some of our problems. I didn't want to take responsibility for any of this--I wanted to blame him for everything. I wanted to stay in denial.<P>You owe it to yourself, your wife, and your marriage to tell her exactly how you are feeling. I suggest you print out this posting, sit your wife down and tell her she needs to read this then you need to talk. You have got to let her know the seriousness of this situation. It will be terribly hard and painful to both, but you have to have the honesty, if you are going to survive this.

Maybe your wife has a different style in dealing with this. Maybe your non verbal communication gave her the impression it wasn't a huge deal. Maybe she truly trusted you to work it out, not because she didn't care, but because she actually thought you would. Maybe she was too focused on herself that she thought she could put this on the back burner. Maybe her heart won't allow her to believe the worst and hope for the best. But the worst, or close to the worst is true, and now you have heaped a lie on it. Not a small lie, a big ugly huge lie. Maybe her timing for asking wasn't great, but your lie was your own, no excuses. You could have told her it was complicated, or let's talk after church, or if your gut reaction was to lie, you could have come clean immediately afterward. Maybe she has stuck her head in the sand and maybe she hasn't been the easiest to tell, but YOU are the one withholding infomation, lying and cheating. Take ownership of why your wife does not know...there may be "reasons" but there really is no excuse.<P>I think you might be concerned if this information goes beyond the marriage. You do have a reputation and a lot to lose, don't you? Are you sure that you haven't pushed the truth because of the wider consequences of your actions? <P>It seems like you may even be justifying yourself by looking down your nose at how your wife handled your revelation and knowing that you would be consumed with "why" and making necessary changes. In a perfect world, maybe your wife should have thrown herself into recovery. I don't know what you said to her, but obviously she thought it was over and was just checking on the way to church. YOU are the reason you are having this affair, not your wife.<P>Could your current position meet your needs? You get to lament about your marriage, the OW and not have to deal with consequences in your real life. It seems like you are trying, when in actuality you are just keeping a foot in both worlds and painting yourself as part remorseful, part star crossed lover and part martyr.<P>Sorry if this sounds blunt. I really have learned much for your posts and I know you really do not want to be in this positon and you didn't set out to get in it, it crept up on you. You are decent enough to have a concious and want to do the right thing. I think you just need the boost to actually take ownership of your problem and address it head on. Your efforts will be blessed.<P><p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited June 25, 2000).]

Hi NoMas -<P>I am so sorry that you are still in this turmoil. Being through the non-communicating "hell" with my own marriage....I know exactly how you feel about the home environment.<P>I want you to do something though, go back and reread what you wrote..... REALLY READ IT.....<P>It's like your life is just swishing around in a whirlpool...not going anywhere - just coming back to the same starting point, which is LACK OF communication with your wife. <P>You have many justifications and fears going on....but you are failing to see the major purpose of MB....KNOWLEDGE!!<P>You understand what you need your wife to do...or at least attempt to do. <P>But, dear NOMAS....she has NO CLUE!!! She is bogged down with the life stuff, confusion, naivette and has no KNOWLEDGE of what she is supposed to do when her partner tells her he wants someone else!! I am sure that she has dwelt on the WHY of it.....and probably came to the conclusion that you need more attention or some such......she DOESN'T have the time to give it, so what CAN she do? How about maybe she feels that if only YOU gave better attention to helping with the life stuff and perhaps even some of your thoughts to HER - this might take care of itself.<P>I don't know her brain....but I can tell you that NOONE is taught all this stuff!!! NOONE can read your mind!!! <P>This OW of yours is so wonderfully understanding only because she has the KNOWLEDGE to be!!!! Only because YOU have opened yourself up to her...and she to you. That only happened because you were on a level field of KNOWLEDGE!!!<P>Does any of this make sense to you? <P>You can keep telling yourself that your wife can't be bothered, but you are lying to yourself. It is YOU who can't be bothered sharing the knowledge with patience and gentle leadership to get your wife UNDERSTAND you and this whole needs stuff.<P>There will never be a "good" time to begin the hard journey of admitting your wrongs and dealing with the emotional fallout.....not just hers, but yours as well!!! <P>The life stuff is just that.....stuff!!!<P>NOTHING is more important than a man and wife's relationship!!! Nothing should be important enough that it causes it to be put on the back burner!!!! Your wife doesn't know that....but you DO!!!<P>I hope this helps NOMas....I really do.<P>You have to stop complicating this torment and start opening your mouth, share your knowledge and thoughts and guide your wife through this. It can't be accomplished quickly.....you have been learning here for a long time and look how you didn't accept the teachings? At least be willing to stop judging your wife and her past "dismissal" of this enough to realize you have done some "dismissing" of your own!!!<P>Everyone can tend to choose to "dismiss" when in a frame of mind that it would be easier and feel better than to "face"!!<P>BIG HUGS and PRAYERS for you,<P>Sheba<P>

Hi NoMas,<P>Well, I guess maybe I should not have started this post. I didn't think you'd get kinda flamed here (no offense meant to anyone on that). I guess I feel the same way others here do, but I also feel like you are helping us betrayed with the eloquent way you share your feelings.<P>NoMas, do you think your wife loves you? Have you given up...thinking that she really doesn't care? Let me say that for me, denial was a powerful thing. I let myself deny over and over again for two long, painful years. I know you have a lot to lose, and you're afraid, but she HAS to know something is not right here. Do you post from home or work? Has she had the opportunity to see you on the computer? Does she have any suspicion to look at what you're saying here?<P>NoMas, the decision is ultimatley, yours...as you know. I just don't like to see a betrayed spouse lied to over and over again, because for me, and so many others here that was the worst part of this whole thing...by a long shot. Omission is lying, just as much as looking someone in the face and denying the truth is.<P>I am sorry if starting this post has hurt you in any way. It's funny I guess, how people are. I used to tell people, that if they ever found out my husband was cheating I wanted to be the last to know. Well, I was. Never, never again will I stick my head in the sand. The truth, though painful, is the only way to heal...together or apart.<P>allison

Hey...that's why we all love Sheba! She always nice AND hits the nail on the head!

FHL - You show me the way!!! Now I just have to be as eloquent and not so "lay it out there" in style!!!! LOL<P>AZ Allison.....I am sorry if you felt that this is a flame or something....on the contrary, we love NOMAS and want him to be honest with himself - no matter which road he chooses. That's what we do here....be honest with love!!!!<P>NOMAS - We believe in you - you know that, right?<P>Big hugs,<P>Sheba

Hello all,<P>I am hearing that you are all saying you wanted to know. What is the best way to do that? I have been trying to tell my husband this week-end but it is hard. I am in a similar situation to NoMas - at one point last fall there was an initial discovery (plus ALL e-mails written up to that point were read by my husband - so he had quite a bit of knowledge of our feelings). Few questions were asked, except about the physical part. Seemed to be all he really cared to know about and was relieved his "worst fear" hadn't occurred. Well, that was the extent of recovering from that. Now mostly the focus is on "improving us". Trouble is, I was so strongly attached to the OM that I wasn't able to give up ALL contact last fall, couldn't bear to. My husband knows nothing of this. He never asked any more questions and didn't get involved in any of it. Just, in a more passive way, let it be known that he expected me to end everything. Direct communication isn't one of our strengths together. Over the past months I've been working at breaking off ALL contact and have done that now. However, through some posts here I am realizing I need to tell about the last 6 months, too. <P>I have been trying to get my husband's attention by telling him about some of the stories I'm reading here (some affais lasted up to 10 years because they weren't really dealt with in all honesty), I've asked him if he knows what "withdrawal" is, I've mentioned that I'm realizing we haven't finished talking about the affair and that I have more to tell, especially regarding my very strong feelings towards the OM. Through most of this I see him not wanting to know too much (hurts) and even telling me I am expecting too much if I want him to realize the sadness I'm feeling (I mentioned I'm feeling sad lately, like a death - he didn't like to hear that). Then anger emerges and I don't feel safe (as in we are working on this together) telling him too much more. My struggle is WHAT should I share. What did you all want to know. I want him to understand the extent of my feelings, but it seems to really hurt him and I wonder if that is expecting too much from him and is too cruel.<P>I have printed a few stories from here for him to read, including the really great story from Homer - so he could identify with another man in his shoes. I explained I need him to respond more actively like Homer is doing, so I know he cares and WE can work through this together. It just is very hard to share with someone who isn't asking for it! I'm trying to be delicate, but also need to be direct (like you all say) or else he won't get it!<P>I'm thinking maybe I should wait until we are in a counselor's office before I say too much, then he will have some help with all his emotions and feelings. They overwhelm him easily and the reactions are a little unpredictable.<P>What do you all suggest?<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 25, 2000).]

Sifted,<P>Like you I printed stuff out from MB for my H to read. But I didn't print out others' stories, I printed out MY story. It was a trehad where I discussed the whole situation - how I felt about my marriage, my H, how the EA started, how I felt about the OM, how bad I felt about everytihng, how scared I was, how I decided I wanted to tell him....<P>IT was all there along with the responses from others that helped me reach my decision. When I gave it to him I told him "This will hurt you but you need to know." And I sat there and held his hand while he read it. Then we talked about the situation and felt closer than we had in years. <P>It's still a struggle, but it's better knowing that he knows and that he wants to be there for me to help me, to help US, get closer and have a stronger relationship.<BR>

May I suggest a new icon?<P>How about a charcoal gray facial expression with eyes and mouth wide open...singed hair...and smoke coming out of the ears.?<P>***sigh***<P>"truth"...can be a bitter pill to swallow.<P>

Okay NoMas,<P>You are making me feel guilty as hell here! Speaking of hell...no just kidding, honest. <P>NoMas, you're thinking and learning...and teaching here. You are doing us a service, and I in no way meant to flame you. As Sheba says, we care and are trying to help. We've been where your wife is, and it is rough.<P>Ok, not going to go back into all of that. I have learned my lesson and will not start up another one of these...I have to much learning to do to question others.<P>allison

{{{{No Mas}}}}<P>Keep thinking....honesty is the best policy....

The first act of love is to see this person, or this object or this reality as it truly is. This involves dropping your desires, your predudices, your memories, your projections, your selective way of looking. When you set out to serve someone whom you have not taken the trouble to see, are you meeting that person's need or your own???<P>The second ingredient is to see yourself. Your motives, your emotins, your needs, your dishonesty, your self-seeking, your tendency to control and manipulate. This means calling things by their name, no matter how painful the discovery and the consequences.<P>If you achieve this kind of awareness of the other and yourself, you will know what love is. <P>If it is love that your truly desire, then set out at once on the task of seeing, take it seriously and look at someone you dislike and really see your prejudice. Look at someone you cling to or something you cling to and really see the suffering, the futility, the unfreedom of clinging and look long and lovingly at human faces and human behavior.<P>From "the Way to Love" the last meditations of Anthony De Mello. He was a jesuit priest. He also wrote a book called "awareness". Much of his writings deal with waking up to ourselves....very spirtitual and very often he remarks about the addictions we face in this world.

Allison...don't feel "guilty". I should have put a smiley face next to that. I do have sense of humor...<P>And believe me...I am not familiar with the pain that many of you have walked through. I open my heart to hear from you. I can handle it. <BR>Thanks to all of you...for being so candid. I do feel your sincere support, as hard as it may be to give it at times.