<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoMas:<BR><B><BR>My, my...a bit 'feisty', aren't we? :-)</B>[QUOTE]<BR>NoMas, "feisty" is an understatement for what I am!! I'm half Irish, half Mexican. That makes me a hot potatoe, or a fighting tamale--I'm not sure which. <BR>I am a bit of a drama queen and emotional, at times but ignore that and listen my message instead. My beliefs are sound. And I'm a major seeker of truth and honesty. I'm a humanitarian. I'm actually a conflict avoider if you can believe that! Except when something is soooo important to me. Even my H can't believe how riled you've got me. I'm usually very sweet--just a bit of a firecracker. Enough about me--back to you.<P>Oh, and never consider my direct questions to you "rhetorical"--I AM asking you to answer them. Where do you think I'm being rhetorical? (THAT wasn't a rhetorical question either! ) Try replying with quotes when you answer--maybe that might help keep things straight. <P>[QUOTE]<B> I'm harmless and promise not you use all my "power" here that you think I possess to manipulate you in any way, ok?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You may be harmless and powerless, NoMas. But never doubt that YOU are being manipulated by someone who isn't. I have no doubt you and he are not one and the same. But you seem to be doing his work here. I wish you had replied with a quote. I said "I am actually very afraid of you, NoMas! But I believe there is a real person in there somewhere so I will love that person and fight for him [you]."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>First of all...you asked me about my feelings for my wife and why I would not want to post that here. I believe I already addressed/answered that....better go back and read again.</B>[QUOTE]<BR>NoMas, this is exactly what you said:<BR> "I always look forward to growing old with her"<BR>"and look forward to getting the kids grown and gone so WE could enjoy our latter years together"<BR>"she is MY best friend"<P>The only thing you list that didn't involve YOU was the fact that she is a good mother. So this is exactly what I said "That's good. But what made you CHOOSE her, NoMas?" But you decided to ignore and forget that. What I was getting at is what F A wrote down about his W in his post "Can a Lost Love Be Found". Look at his last entry made today--July 6th. That's what I was trying to draw out of you. <BR> [QUOTE]<B><BR>Second, you ask what keeps me in my marriage? Well, I have stated repeatedly over and over that I know that to leave the marriage would bring more pain and heartache and guilt and destruction, than I care to be a part of. I know without a doubt that it would be the ultimate lie and trap to destroy me...</B>[/QUOTE}<BR>Why do you think we all have to memorize what you've said before? I don't expect anyone to automatically know my story. I will willingly repeat my story to anyone who asks--it helps reinforce or has me question my beliefs. And why does that answer above sound so vague and obscure? Can you give some specifics? It just makes me want to ask more questions of you. I have no idea what you mean by anything you said--and I'm not uneducated. It's just too glossed over. I don't mean to belittle your pain by any means--but can't you see what I'm getting at? The important stuff is what you won't even concentrate on! This is the stuff you need to repeat like a mantra but you'd rather just talk about your feelings and your feelings toward the OW (which is really not what I have the problem with--they have their place, too). No, you haven't "trashed" your W--you basically wrote her out of the equation! Concentrate on your W and put your energy there. <P>[QUOTE]<B>Third, You ask was my ego hurt when my wife got busy in school?.... I think Harley has made quite a case and point illustrating exactly what happens....I thought you were familiar with this sight and his teachings? That is exactly what happened to me....didn't think that was a big mystery. I have never tried to justify it here or call it anything else than what it is. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Whoa there. I asked because I KNOW your ego was hurt.--I just wondered if YOU realized it was more about your ego than how wonderful this OW was or neglectful your W was. It was never a "big mystery" to me. I am all too familiar with Dr. H and his SAA teachings, NoMas. Let's have a "Trivial Pursuit" game on his teachings sometime--mano a mano, Amigo! <P>It's a mute point if you tried to justify your A or not. Nobody could ever justify an A. It's not the kind of thing that's justifiable. But there was a cause and effect thing that makes marriages weak and vulnerable A's. That's what I was talking about. If you don't recognize it, how can you prevent it? Am I mistaken or is this your 2nd A? That's not a dig--I promise. I'm just too lazy to go back and read your posts. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You asked if I read the post you refered me to. Yes, I did. It was very good.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You'd never make it as a commentator! I guess I expected more of an enthusiastic response coming from a minister. For those of you who haven't read it yet--it's more of a spiritual way of looking at this affair/recovery business. I found it heartening and enlightening. I'd suggest it to anyone to read. Maybe they would understand why I sound so aggressive here.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You said I have more post in every forum here. Sorry...but this is the only forum I ever post in, with maybe an occasional exception. I'm not sure, but if you look at the grand total of my post in my profile, compared to others here, I am still an amateur. :-)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I said you have more posts in this forum than "just about anyone". Sorry, my bad. I never took a tally. They rebooted this forum for repairs and we lost posts from last year--you were here in 1999, no? But I have read your posts, here and in other forums: General Questions, Read Only Posts, Emotional Needs, In Recovery, and Divorced/Divorcing--only as far back as January 2,000. A total of 78. I did a search. My point is, you seem to post these same kinds of posts that put people into tailspins (not a bad thing) but never seem to take all the advice given to you. I think that's why your progress is moving at such a snails pace (but I do commend the progress). You just don't take to heart what people who are trying to help are telling you. Not the hard to look at stuff anyway. <P>You ask people if they want to throw in the towel of their marriages. How supportive is that to these people fighting their hearts out? That is the work you seem to be doing here. That's what I fear and got so worked up about. It smacks of you know who. As a minister, surely you can see this?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Why does it bother you when people respond in kind to me here?</B>[/QUOTE}<BR>Why do you think I am bothered by that?NoMas, I, myself, have been one of those people who have responded lovingly to you here! Read MY first post to you here again! <P>But I AM bothered that you ignore the tougher questions. It's true. I said you only answer to the people that coddle you. Perhaps I'm too blunt. But other people say I have brought up good points you should think about and try to answer. I'm so glad that you are finally trying. <P>[QUOTE]<B>Doesn't your bible teach you that the 'truth shall set you free?" </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>MY bible? MY bible?! I need to count to ten here. How passive aggressive of you, NoMas! In fact, alot of the way you word things to me is passive aggressive and condescending. If I am "attacking" you, at least I do it head on and don't hide my true self. And what did I say that wasn't true? Tell me what truth I need to face that will set me free? NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION. <P>And I don't expect you to be "more than human". But I at least expect you to be honest. With me and yourself. <P>I'm a christian. But I can't quote any scripture like you can. I wrote a few down on a card to keep in my wallet--like "if God be for us, who can be against us?" to give me strength --here's one I just found in my "daily devotional" for you. Romans 12:17--Provide things honest in the sight of all men.<P>Let's both try and do that, NoMas.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Oh well...I gave you four questions here so I hope you don't ignore me now. I'll be looking for four answers.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So passive aggressive. It is not I who has done any ignoring. I bet people here wish that I had. I have never ignored you. Ask me anything you wish. I hope I gave you your 4 answers--if not, I'll edit. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And I will be sure to leave my 'stones' at home. I will never be qualifed to throw them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Couldn't you just say--"Your picking on me!"? If by asking tough questions I'm throwing stones, then you can throw them back to me just, scribble your answer on them first! I promise I won't even duck!<P> NoMas--I love you. If I didn't--I'd let you stay in your foggy little world and would ignore you--leave you to your demons. It is not possible for me to just pass by someone in deep trouble like you are and not try to help. I'm sorry you just don't recognize that for what is is. I'm TRYING to get your goat! (And you're getting mine as well--You're very good!)<BR> <BR>I am not the enemy. You are a mule stuck in the mire. I am not the mire. I am the whip that's cracking your stubborn behind to get you moving out of there! <BR> <BR>P.S. I'm sorry if I've made uncomfortable comments to those of you who aren't Christian or "as-Christian"(?). You of course, can always ignore what you don't believe in. But if you are Christian--this is reality. God is for marriage. The devil is against it. Even Dr. H has said this. Anyone who posts something, (and you've done this before, NoMas--whether you are aware of it or not) making a whole group of people begin to doubt and want to give up on their marriages is doing something really nasty and needs to be made aware of it. Have a great retreat, NoMas. Know that you are being prayed for during your studies.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 06, 2000).]

Nomas, thank you for the page reference. I have this book and several others by Dr. Harley, but I will not be at home for several days. I will respond immediately when I can get my hands on my book because I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT believe that Dr. H is saying that the feelings of "love" that wayward spouses have for the op are really love - addiction yes; real love, no.<P>

Leilana....<P>You really puzzle me.<BR>You wrote:<P>"You may be harmless and powerless, NoMas. But never doubt that YOU are being<BR> manipulated by someone who isn't. I have no doubt you and he are not one and the<BR> same. But you seem to be doing his work here."<P>Just WHAT is this "work" of his that you think I am doing??????<BR>And why in the world do I 'rile' you up so?<P>Listen.....I come here to "vent" as many people do. The things I have expressed about this OW and how I feel about her...are very deep and our hearts were very much entangled with each other. The more we struggled to get loose from them, the tighter they seem to ensnare us. I have spilled my guts here sharing the despair and torment of being in such a place. I KNOW it is wrong...sin...and against everything God stands for...and His institution of marriage. That adds to the agony that I feel.<P>I could never share the depth of this turmoil I feel...to my wife. I don't know how she could bear it. I can only give her "bite-sizes" at a time for her to digest. If there is any good from my posting here where other betrayed wives might read....would be this: Perhaps I have enabled them to see what similar struggles their WS are going through. Not to garnish sympathy, but simply understanding. Reading the post of their broken hearts, has helped me so much...keep from going over the edge. Their encouragement to share with my wife...and the horrors of what they have felt...have helped me see into my wife's own broken heart. I apprecciate this so much. I know...that I am going to find my way home...and that my marriage is going to be restored...and better than ever. I have no doubt of this anymore.<BR>This has been one 'hell' of a journey...and there is still some distant to travel.<P>But I really think you are barking up the wrong tree to imply that I am being 'used by Satan' here on these boards. Who knows, perhaps many other readers do as well. I have simply opened my heart and been very honest here with what I am going through. <P>I have not given up the fight. I am not going to throw away 19 years of marriage and ruin many lives in the process. Keep in mind that never once have I ever sought to justify my problem here, nor have I looked for others to support me in this destructive relationship. I have also responded to post that were a bit on the "salty" side...just ask "Justlearning"! And I do appreciate her words of encouragement..especially after I announced that my wife was aware of what was going on now.<P>Hey Wesse.....<BR>I didn't say that Harley said it was "real love" that the WS would always have. He just simply stated there that the WS would always be "in love" with the lover, and that he could never have contact with her again. You'll see when you find it there. Someone posted that in his other book "Surviving and affair", that he apparently ommitted this statement, as the book was written later. It would be nice to get a clarification from him on this here. ANyone want to contact him and ask for that?<P>By the way, I am here getting settled in for my week long retreat. I stopped by a library in town to log on....I feel good about being here and am very optomistic about the upcoming week.<P>Thanks again for everyone's support and prayers.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoMas:<BR><B>Leilana....<P>You really puzzle me.<BR>You wrote:<P>"You may be harmless and powerless, NoMas. But never doubt that YOU are being<BR> manipulated by someone who isn't. I have no doubt you and he are not one and the<BR> same. But you seem to be doing his work here."<P>Just WHAT is this "work" of his that you think I am doing??????<BR>And why in the world do I 'rile' you up so?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Just the fact you put out questions that don't encourage people in their struggles, you make them question why they should even try. You say "How come you don't throw in the towel?" How supportive is that to people already asking themselves how they can possibly have the strength to go on?<BR>That's the "work" I object to. But I guess it's good that we question this belief of Dr. H's, yeah? It needs to be clarified. I don't buy it. You seem to. We are butting heads on this. You stepped on a nerve. That's why I'm riled. But I still love you!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Listen.....I come here to "vent" as many people do. The things I have expressed about this OW and how I feel about her...are very deep and our hearts were very much entangled with each other. The more we struggled to get loose from them, the tighter they seem to ensnare us. I have spilled my guts here sharing the despair and torment of being in such a place. I KNOW it is wrong...sin...and against everything God stands for...and His institution of marriage. That adds to the agony that I feel.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm listening, NoMas. Please VENT! Please do! I do! I never ever was against you expressing yourself. I want to see you move ahead, too. I guess I just want to see you out of your fog so much that I'm expecting too much of you. I want to see you focus on your W and her qualities just as much as you do of the OW and yourself. But you know what--you sound so much stronger today than you did at the beginning of your post. So much less focused on your warm fuzzy feelings towards the OW. I am so thrilled and encouraged! God Bless you, NoMas!<P>Ouch! You called me "salty"! <BR>I like to think of myself more in terms of "spicy"! <P>[QUOTE}<B> Someone posted that in his other book "Surviving and affair", that he apparently ommitted this statement, as the book was written later. It would be nice to get a clarification from him on this here. ANyone want to contact him and ask for that?<BR></B>[/QUOTE]<BR>Someone! That was me, silly! But be sure you don't give me any credit for having a brain, ok!! The books are written 12 yrs. apart. I think he changed his mind after further research and experience. I'm hoping someone calls him, too.<P>Keep up the good work, NoMas!! Remember I'm supporting and encouraging your progress too, even if you don't believe me. I AM praying for you. Going to a luau party now with my H. OW and her H and kids will be there. I'll try not to throw in my towel!!<P><BR>

Oh, Leilana - what I have been missing by not reading here for so long! You make me cheer and laugh! You are wonderful!<P> <P>Try this one and tell me what you think! <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003886.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003886.html</A> <P>You GO girl!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Terri, <P>Thanks for that! I was afraid I came across as being scary and unapproachable here when the exact opposite is true. I'm having a day you would not believe. That was a hug for me whether you knew you were doing it or not. <P>I had already read your post in that other thread and was amazed at the work you did there--tho I didn't post under you I was very impressed. I totally agree about it being about the choices we make. Calling our relationships and actions "fate" and "destiny" is a total cop out. <P>It was great what you said and it was a wonderful way that you put it. Keep up the good work! You never know when your thoughts or beliefs or stories my be the reality check or encouragement or warning another person needs or is looking for. I've learned so much from people here. Even (especially?) from the ones I don't always agree with!<P>

Glad I helped you feel better about your posts ... I think you have brought some reality checks to some people, too! Keep up the good work!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...