I get pretty discouraged by reading Nomas and freedom and forests posts on that thread.<BR>Are they really the norm? Is this what I have to look forward to if my H does deceide to work on the marriage? Because if it is I am considering dropping out of this situation right now. <P>Maybe they are just more verbal, and can express their feeling better. Or are they more into prolonging it and anguishing over their decision?<P>I just know if my H feels that strongly toward Ow and that nothing toward me, I don't have the self confidence to fight it for long. He can see if she can be perfect in real life. <P>I do want a real marriage again, not someone going through the motions while pining away for OW. I would like passion and love and imtimacy. Do I have to divorce him and look for a new relationship to give me that again?<P>Having a bit of a struggle today after talk of a trial seperation anyhow, but boy, if that is all I have to look forward to... I'll pass.<BR>Lora

Hi Lora,<P>I'm not really sure what the norm is anymore, but I can tell you that not all male betrayers are like the ones you mentioned.<P>It is very unsettling to read posts where the betrayer says that they really love their wife but just can't get over the other person. It does make you feel very hopeless. Some betrayers are so caught up in their own self-righteous "suffering" that they can't even begin to give the spouse they betrayed the help needed to deal with the tragedy of infidelity.<P>Please don't judge your husband or your chance of a successful recovery by only those posts. Balance them with stories by schizzo, lostva, FaithLoveHope, etc.<P>It really all depends on how emotionally involved the betrayer was in the affair. My husband's affair was with a "friend" that we had known for 15 years. She is 15 years younger than him and very needy. She flirted and stroked his ego until the "friendship" crossed the line into an affair. <P>My husband confessed to me after one physical encounter and ended contact immediately. He also told me that he let himself be "backed into a corner" by his flirting and was "trapped into either putting up or shutting up". She told me herself that the physical encounter didn't get very far before he told her he didn't want it to happen because he loved his wife.<P>My husband has never suffered through withdrawal and swears that he never loved her, only liked her and really enjoyed the attention of a much younger woman. His only suffering has been from his own conscience and what I have put him through.<P>So again, judge your husband individually. If he wants to stay in your marriage and really work to make amends by focusing on you instead of the other woman, I'd say that is a positive sign that you are more important to him than she is. If he is the one pushing for the separation and is continuing to see her, he might be more like the individuals you mentioned in your post.<P>I hope for your sake the situation has not gone that far, and wish I could be of more help to you.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Lora, these betrayers are not typical of those who have successfully weathered recovery and committed themselves to their marriages. Remember, they are men who acknowledge that they have not been able to get past withdrawal.<P>My h went through a recovery phase lasting about 3 months Steadily during that time, his commitment - and more importantly his joy in our marriage -increased. He struggled with emotions ranging from pining to feeling foolish. He had been ready to give up our marriage to be with ow. Now he thanks me often for being the strong one who weathered the storm when we were caught failing to nurture and value our relationship.<P>We both had expectations of each other that were too high. I expected him to be the perfect man whose loyalty to me was unshakable even when he wasn't at the top of my priority list ( I asked him to help me word this.) He wanted me to always look like a homecoming queen, stay fit as a triathlete, make love like a pro, run a successful professional practice, keep a house beautiful, qualify as mother of the year and worship him as my hero. <P>My h truly is an outstanding man with high standards for himself and for me. While I do my best, perfection in any one of the above areas would be quite a challenge for me. We have both had to adjust our needs and expectations of the other.<P>Neither of us were prepared for the changes that strike many of us in the forties decade of midlife. We didn't see the various midlife crises coming, didn't recognize them when they hit, and didn't know how to handle them when they were dragging us down.<P>While I'd gladly erase the months of his emotional affair and recovery, our love for one another and joy in being together has never been greater. I think that we and others had always believed that we had a really good marriage. We still think that we did. Now we know that the perfect marriage doesn't exist and we have to always be vigilant to nurture the marriage that is so special for the two of us.<P>Although my h expressed so many of the same sentiments you read from the betrayers you mentionned, he now says he can't imagine how or why he ever said those things. He says that he looks back at that time as if he were looking at his life then through a fog of addiction.<P>Consider the posts of Faith, Hope, Love and Leiliana. They more accurately and more gently address the issues of withdrawal.<P>As my h came out of his fog, his attempts at rationalization decreased; he stopped arguing over semantics; and he began to love his life again. At the same time he also began to see how narrow his view of his ow had been. While he had expected so much of me and had appreciated it so little, his expectations of her had been that she look good and that she lavish him with hero worship. She never was expected to solve a problem or contribute anything of substance.<P>Please don't be discouraged by those who are stuck either temporarily or permanently in limbo. Keep trying to be the wife your h needs and the person that you need to be. Help comes in many forms to give the wayward spouse the nudge he needs to get back on track. <P>I had tried so hard but my h was having trouble finding the strength to cut the ties to the ow. Suddenly out of the blue, in one day, something happened, and they never had romantic contact again. My h believes that the incident that ended it was the hand of God reaching down to give us all the boost that we needed.<P>Do not be discouraged. I hope and will pray that your h will find his way out of his fog to recommit to you.<BR>

Wesse,<BR>Thanks for saying such nice things. I try to help because this place saved my sanity, so when I have time I try to give back. It actually keeps me on my toes and focused on the continual growth and changes we all must address. <P>You really do see the patterns when you have been here for some time, don't you?<P>Sometimes there is someone here that could make it if they just shifted their thought pattern. I think NoMas is like that. His poor wife must be hanging in there, but every day he languishes in whatever the state he is in, harder recovery will be.<P>Then there are the marriages that are flawed by some type of substance, physical or emotional abuse. When I pick up on that, I almost never post because even if they recover from the infidelity there is not much hope for a healthy marriage.<P>I don't know WHAT my H was thinking. Fortunetly his OW was a Brazen Hussy. He reportedly looked like one and acted like one. I think my H had a minature MLC only 6 weeks after turning 40. He started going to bars with a guy friend...seemed out of character, but innocent enough, but he admits he was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong mind set. He stopped going to bars and took total responsibility for his actions. I hate that he did it, but I respect how he handled it.<P>Lora, I don't know what kind of man your H is. I truly believe you did the right thing by not opposing his departure. <P>Since we ultimately can not control another person, I think you should keep right on living your life and working on yourself. You have grown soooo much. If anything will attract your H back it will be you just being you. If he doesn't come back, his loss. New doors will open. No one will be able to take away all the wonderful things you discovered about yourself.<P>Take care!

You guys don't know me from a hill of beans as I hardly ever post anything, but I do read most of the posts on here everyday and they have been very helpful. This leads to lots of conversations and arguments between my H and myself. I read and printed up the upove mentioned post to my H this morning as it also bothered me. If my H felt that way, I would have nothing to do with him as I have no desire to be in competition with an OW for my H love and attention. I begged my H to leave and go play it out with OW. It would have been a lot kinder to all of us at home. Of course he didn't, but he lost his job over it, screwed up the kids, and broke the bond that i had with him. His Affair started two years ago and lasted a year. He said he could relate to Freedom's story, but he was in it for the sex only. He basically told me he had the opportunity, didn't think he would get caught, wanted to experience someone different, we have been together 27 years, and just wanted to do it. He didn't care about me or the kids. That was the worse year of his life as he was the most unhappy, cold, depressed person I have ever seen. Therapy paid off for me because I became stronger, knew what I wanted and knew how to express it. It was a waste of time and money like Freedom claims for my H because he was still seeing the OW. Two yrs later, we are still together, but my H is playing catch up.<BR>I asked H what he got out of it. His answer was nothing at all. In defense of Freedom, at least he can express his true feelings even though they aren't the ones we, the betrayed would want to hear from our spouses. I feel sad for his wife. I will never go through this again and I don't have much respect for the betrayers. If they have the balls to screw around, they should have the balls to end a relationship before jumping into the bed of another one.

I was so friggin depressed today after seeing some of these posts first thing this morning, I couldn't handle it! <P>I took my kids to the river to go rafting today as I had promised them, hoping to relax and have some fun, and all I could think about all day long was how much I loved my husband and how much he loved the other woman (does he?)--and how I hardly have a chance to win him back when her sacred memories linger. Why even try if she is the sun, moon, and stars to him? I am just a brood mare. And here I am, stuck raising these kids alone. Why did I even marry and bring them into the world for a life with one parent, barely scraping by while their daddy is off with * * * for fun and games? (I spared her nothing today. I cussed her in every language I know, that friggin dog.)<P>And him? When I stood by him in the face of every obstacle, he decides that I just aint no fun anymore. Golly gee. He wasn't too fun either, but that didn't mean that I was gonna hop into the rack with any ol fella that paid attention to me (believe me, I have had more than plenty of chances. I'm purty cute.) I had two hours and 10 miles of river to think about all of this.<P>I ended up yelling at my kids, my daughter failed to paddle the raft how I wanted her to, my son got on my nerves by bouncing around in the raft, they fought and squabbled with each other like usual, got yelled at some more by me, we finished our river trip, then we all got into the car crying. My son fell asleep in the back seat crying, my daughter squished into the passenger door, crying, and me, trying to drive while tears were pouring from my eyes .<P>I dunno about you guys, but I think they should start another topic heading in the MB forum: "withdrawal from OP" so the rest of us can at least maintain some hope. Or is this a rude thing to say? Probably, but based on my day today, I can't help it.

Lora: Don't let these posts throw you.<P>Certain people post here, but aren't actually applying the Harley principles....yet....they're still in withdrawal.<P>Take what *positives* you can from these posts and let the rest of the info go in one ear and out the other.<P>Or, better yet, avoid them altogether.<P>Peace, ~Marie

Peppermint,<BR>Thanks, I have no idea how far H relationship has gone as he won't talk. I am still questioning is it EA or PA. It has gone far enough that he doesnt want to work on our marriage at all at this point.<P>Wesse,<BR>Waiting for the fog to lift, glad I don't live in Sanfrancisco where it is always foggy.LOL I have a hard time beleiving his affair will ever end sometimes, it has been going so long and seems to get more intense with every plan A move I make.<P>FHL, <BR>Thanks for saying nice things about me.. still makes me cry to hear them, but at least I don't feel like saying... if they only knew me they would know I was not good at all. I think I have grown. I gave H my final letter pouring out my feelings today. It was quite good if I do say so myself. Now I think I will go to the cards and notes about general things. <BR>Thank you for being there as the voice of calm reason and encouragement.<P>Weneqn,<BR>Sounds like you feel the same as me.. I am ready to have her fill all his needs, I need a break from trying and getting nowhere. I feel like I have grown alot in therepy and he is unhappy, probably depressed, and looking for happiness outside of himself.<BR>Glad my post pulled you out from lurkdom.<P><BR>Bernzini,<BR>Ya I got pretty aggrivated by that post too as you can tell. Sorry it ruined your day as well. I tend to read everything.. looking for that insight to figure out why this happened. Its hard to accept that it just did and you have to go on from here. Ya, fun. Hard to be a barrel of laughs at this point isn't it? My H still is mad that after dicovery we went on vacation and didn't have a good time. Maybe it was because he wouldnt speak to me..... Na it was all my fault as is everything in his view.<P>Marie,<BR>I know I shounldnt let things get to me and sway my determination. I just get into the low self esteem mode when I think of it as a compitition with him so in love with OW and me here as the one he has a duty too... yuck.

I can actually say"Now" much of what I've read on this board has finally clicked for me. The books that I was guided too, the people on this board....I read some of the earlier post and some sound so desperate...but when I look at my own early post...that was me!!!!<BR>I have grown as a person, sometimes you need to hear something over and over again said differently by someone else or another book before you are really ready to practice what you're trying to learn.<BR>Plan A was so hard for me...because of the way my H was treating me...I would counter attack his moods or actions.<BR>The post from others, finally made me see until h was finally thru the withdrawls, I never really had a chance for him to see the "good " in me and what we had.<BR>Hearing Nomas and others, I would feel the same way. I knew my H was feeling the same way. It was so hard, but it helped me to realize if OW's pull was so strong....Then I would have to work on ME...To live my life without H, the kind of life I wanted, with a caring, loving man,( Like he once was).<BR>Then all of a sudden OW had many flaws that he (just hadn't noticed before) Like so much baggage it was unbelievable. He says of all the women in the world to have an affair with I picked her!!!! <BR>So now, we are still not living together, he is still proably taking a job out of state.(Not the one she's in). But he IS starting to say things and act like my old H.<BR>Even said he knew how important having insurance was for me, and he would make sure I was included if it was offered. Even if we went ahead with the divorce he would still try to keep me on his policy, or help pay for insurance for me. ( Hey that is a big jump from NO I'm not doing anything to help you)<BR>As long as he is being the kind of man I KNOW he can be...I can handle "the divorce" if it happens. Now he is coming around and "letting go" of the illusion...<BR>Do we still have along way to go.YOU BET<BR>Remember Garth Brooks song "She's gonna make it, he never will..." Well I started focusing on ME. my values, they hadn't changed. I was comfortable with them, no matter what h was doing....If he wanted to live that way, fine....<BR>I guess when I realized that, the peace I needed to feel started coming...<BR>Will it last? As others here have posted proably not for long, but I'm ready for those down days too, and will continue to ask for guidence from both "betrayed & betrayers". Thier words, thoughts and feelings have all had an infulence in my own growth....<BR>Bye the way" Relationship Rescuse" by Dr. Phil McGraw is the lastest book I'm reading and it has really helped ME...Look at me..<BR>Change me...<BR>I can even now, and laugh....I'm beginning to enjoy life again. <BR>I think my H is too!!!!<BR>God Bless you all

Lora, I really know what you mean. It was NoMas's posts that really got to me. Even my MIL asked me if I could get through my life wondering if he was still wondering.<P>That's one of the main reasons I let go...which got him mad and pushed him off the fence into bed with her.... (recently)<P>I just knew I could do nothing else. My H moved out lying all the way to me and his family. He was trying to figure it out. But was with her all day obsessing about having sex. I think it was the obsession that made him seem possessed. <P>My H is very naive. He doesn't have a clue what is happening to him. ANd unfortunately is an intellectualizing type person who will never believe anyone but himself!!! And OP currently. <P>Do I really think this is true love... soul mates... H*** no. But who am I to tell them. They will have to figure it out for themselves. Could take some time, since there is no reality for them yet.. They are apart in separate apts.. crying to each other that they could be so cruel to us.<P>They are waiting to do things "right". With spouses divorced... then they will move in together. They have to currently keep up appearances due to the work they do and the reputation they have.<P>I'm just being nice and moving on to try to help myself and my children heal from what I would concider emotional pummelling.

Thank God my H wasn't like this at all. While we were separated and he was going back and forth he was moping and stuff, obviously "other things" on his mind. However, when he was ready to come back and recommit I could tell he was 100% with me. He was glad to be back and put his all into mending our marriage. I think he went through his "withdrawal" from her while we were still separated. Then she acted like a crazy person when he moved back home. In a way it s--ked to deal with that, but it also made him realize what she truly was and assured no lingering feelings for her (except fear, disgust etc)

Tyra, <BR>I think I am starting to " get it" too. But then something I read makes me doubt myself and my progress, so I guess I am not fully there yet. Maybe I will have to try relationship resuce next. <P>too trusting,<BR>It hurts me that you seem to be taking the blame for making your H sleep with OW. Please stop that. What makes you think he is now telling the truth? And even if he is you had no control over him. Geeze if he is so into global responsibility maybe he should starta little closer to home with a little personal responsibility.<P>Fairydust,<BR>How long was your H gone?<BR>lora

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do want a real marriage again, not someone going through the motions while pining away for OW. I would like passion and love and imtimacy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My H did commit to working on the marriage, and was not in touch with the woman he thought he was in-love with. But, for months what I had was a H who was deeply missing someone else, at the same time as he was growing closer to me. It was very hard...you would really like them to be able to instantly be out-of-love with OP and back in love with you...and at times you wonder if you should not just give up.<P>It started out with him "going thru the motions" while pining away...but it didn't end there. Now we have the passion, love and intimacy (OK, we are still working on communication, but 3 out of 4 ain't bad). I wake up sometimes to see him watching me sleep "bcs you are so beautiful, and I love you so much." <P>So, my message would be that just because withdrawal may be deep and take a while doesn't mean it isn't worth waiting out, once they have recommitted.<P>Kathi

My Dear, you can expect to encounter some solid anger, tears, and resentment especially during the inital stages of your recovery. I'm not sure how far along you are in your journey with Infidelity Airlines, but don't let what you think 'might be' based on what some have said be a stumbling block for you. <P>We all experience guilt, remorse and all those other wonderful emotions on varying levels and express them in varying ways. I doubt that any two reactions will be identical. Similar perhaps, but still with significant differences. <P>I can assure you that I put my H thru hell. One of the saddest parts of this is that I didn't realize just how much hell he did go thru. Even when I thought I was 'being good,' I was actually being pretty rotten. But he had the wisdom and love to see that I WAS trying, I just needed some time for some hard facts to sink into my rather thick cranim. Once they did, believe me, the guilt began doing the rest of the work. <P>On the other hand, I think it would be incredibly cruel and just a vile as being betrayed if you were to just decide all of the sudden that you just didn't feel like doing the work it will take to get to a more comfortable stage in recovery after you have already started. Personally, I worried myself literally sick and laid awake many nights, wondering if that's what my H might REALLY be thinking. <P>One final thought - recovery takes the combined efforts of two people who must work just as hard but from separate ends of a spectrum to come together again. Once you see goals being achieved and progress being made, hopefully you can find the peace to appreciate the wonder and value of such gains. It's like this with many many things in life, not just in the Recovery Room.<P>I wish you and your H strength, hope, wisdom and love. Remember, a step back doesn't have to mean a landslide. And one final thought (a pearl I just stumbled across myself, after having lived a quarter of a century I just now get this-) Forgiving someone for misdeeds done does not make the anger and hurt melt away. It simply states your intention to move foreward past the event in life, perhaps WITH that misguided person towards a better future. <P>Sincerely,<BR>Khyra

Lora, I'm not really blaming myself. I blame him...he did it. I just needed to see for myself. ANd you are right. He came home lying. I think he and she had some (just don't know how much) physical closeness on the trip. He says they hugged. I just don't believe that.<P>My H has a great stake in maintaining his reputation. I mean he lied to his mom.<P>But all said and done. It is he that has to look in the mirror in the morning. He can keep rationalizing it for life.<P>I lived with the man for 13 years. He sleeps very little and takes prilosec around the clock. I don't think this will improve those conditions. He needs help.

sorry I ruined everyone's day with my cheerful post there.<P>Some days are better than others. Sometimes, no, most of the time, I really feel that I should not have to do all the work of reconnecting. Yesterday was one of those days.<P>This is my situation: I am living with my parents right now. It sucks, because there are too many people in the house with my mom and dad, my bum younger brother, myself, my three kids, three dogs and two cats. It's miserable.<P>I have a job waiting for me, one that is quite an opportunity, something I have always dreamed of doing--mountain search and rescue--and I have a little house in the mountains waiting for me if I take the job.<P>But, my husband, who is stationed in Japan, needs to come get me if he wants me. I think, now, he feels that he ruined things and wants me to go ahead and take the job.<P>I want him to come and get me. But I am also extremely hurt. I just don't know what to say to him. I want to say "Please, I need you, come get me and the kids." But I don't know how to say that to a guy that just spent the whole last year fluxuating between me and some old bone he dug up. I keep saying that if he wants her, he can have her. They deserve each other for what they did.<P>Yesterday, it was one of those days when I wanted to just load up the u-haul and forget I ever laid eyes on the guy, after reading some of the messages left here. I am still young and fairly attractive and energetic, why waste what time I have on someone who does not care if I lived or died, I was thinking, when there is probably someone else out there who would appreciate me? I try to think realistically: if the dude is still in love with his little chat-room friend, then I am just setting myself up for more heartbreak waiting around for him, when he may never show any interest in coming back.<P>Then I get to thinking about possibly sharing my life with another man, and it doesn't click. I don't want it. He is the love of my life. I couldn't see myself with anyone else. He is everything to me, no matter what he did.<P>Plus, he's my kids' dad. I don't see how any other guy could raise them better than he can.<P>You can see why I am so confused. Reading some of the stuff yesterday just sent me over that line where I am hovering in limbo.<P>On the opposite end of the spectrum, the couple of weeks since I started reading your posts in MB, I have had so much hope from reading so many positive messages about rekindling love, and I appreciate that. I think this is such a great bunch of intelligent people, and it is so nice to know that I am not alone in this.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 06, 2000).]

Kathi,<BR>Still waiting for recommitment and the begining of withdrawl. Thanks for making the point that it all needs to start somewhere and if he starts by going though the motions, I should be glad to just have him start. Its just scary becaouse it seems to take so long for some to get through withdrawl and after a year since discovery, I don't think I have much left to give.<P>Kyra,<BR>Thanks for the response. I can't even say we are in the begining of recovery yet. I am begining to worry that it does take 2 commited people and I can't carry this on much further myself. Sounds like you and your H are working things out and I admire you both for the perseverence that takes.<P>Tootrusting,<BR>Good, I'm glad you see that he made his choices. I wish you peace with yourself and figure there is no way to go but up from here.

kam6318,<P>I wish more betrayer's like your H would post here to balance out posts like NoMas'<BR>that sap the strength out of those of us plan A'ing or B'ing.<P>It's nice to read stories about those guys that once said "I love you" to OW to now say "What the hell was I thinking!". We need to see alot more of those stories. It does happen, guys! <P> <P>

Bernzini,<BR>Dont worry, we are all down sometimes. Or is it most of the time since D day? Anyhow it seems the longer I have been here the stronger and fewer bad days i have.<P>Leilana,<BR>EXACTLY. I guess those betrayers are more of the moving on variety, don't dwell on it and don't post here. We maybe see a skewed type of betrayer who posts here. (Or is that screwed LOL) So i guess I will try not to let them suck me in and make me stray from my resolve. Thanks for the reminder.<BR>Lora

To Lora (re" "How long was your H gone?)<P>Brief history - H began affair, 2 weeks later said he wanted divorce but wouldn't move out. We could "share" house until I got a place (my house too lol). For the next month he was here but MIA much of the time (gee, wonder where he was). He then moved out for about 5 months. During that time thought there were 3-4 times he moved back home for afew days at a time, then would say he "wasn't ready yet" or"wasn't sure". I believe that was his withdrawal period. It was during those times I could tell he wasn't really all there, he was too quiet, withdrawn. Yuck. LIke I said though, once he was ready he gave it 100%. Yea!