I don't know about Maya, but for a lot of us... it's very hard to sit down and think "what do *I* need". For me, somewhere in my upbringing I aquired the feeling that I should always think about everyone else before myself... anything less was "selfish"... and it was BAD to be selfish... these are feelings mind you... I can't recall anyone specifically saying this to me... this kind of stuff sticks with you for a long time... this mid life thing is when you start to realize something just isn't right... I'm looking at 39 next month.<P>You get depressed, you learn you grow, you realize you need to start considering your own needs, but by then you have no idea what they really are... for 30 odd years you've been thinking about everyone else... it's easier to figure out what you DON'T need... you know what DOESN'T work. Figuring out what WILL work is difficult, and even if you do, change itself is scary... thus LIMBO.<P>So, I can understand why Maya may feel like she doesn't know what her needs are... it's a slow, sometimes painful, process that you can only go through within yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Been there, done that. But at some point we have to grow up and know who we are, what we want, independent of our spouse. How can a guy or woman begin to meet the needs of another person if that person doesn't know what they want? We have to decide for ourselves in the perfect scenario, what makes us tick?

Sorry, didn't finish my thought. OR do we lose this relationship and take our "I don't knows" to the next one. We have to know, and I only grasped this recently. We talk about serving others, but we do them no service (especially our mate) if we don't know ourselves.

I'm not disagreeing with you schizzo, believe me, but what do you do when you finally get the gumption to stand up for yourself and state your needs, and your spouse says tough cookies... then turns away from you because "you've changed"?<P>Sorry Maya... butting in with my own problems there... schizzo, it's not always easy to question and re-evaluate fundamental beliefs that are a part of who you are, or at least of who you have been.

yy, I didn't say it was easy, only essential. Dr. Harley makes the case for CONDITIONAL love in a marriage in his book Give and Take much better than I can. So, what do you do?<P>I'll tell you what I did? 6 weeks ago when I learned of the EA and all the deceipt, etc, I made a decision. Fortunately, I had just read almost everything Harley has written. I would not punish my h because it would not help either of us. BUT, either we both fully implement the 4 rules (from Recovering from an Affair) and that includes me too, or we split. There would be no other choices. I'm not looking for divorce, but adultery is Biblical grounds. Heck, in those days it was a capital crime subject to stoning.<P>This is advice, not from someone who has been around a long time, but from a couple who are recovering wonderfully. I could not have believed we could be this in love in six weeks. In fact, we both submitted ourselves despite our huge doubts whether any of this would work.

Sheryl,<P>I like your analogy comparing the need to feel in love, with the need to feel an orgasm. Yeah, you can survive without it, but who really wants to?<P>I think the difference is that if we need to feel in love, we have to rely on someone else. But if we need to feel orgasm, we can take matters into our own hands. So to speak.

Schizzo,<P>Again, I agree with everything you are saying, the difference is, you have a co-operateive spouse. Right now, I detach, try to take care of my own life as much as possible while I figure out who I really am, and what I need... factoring into the equation, what my 5 year old needs. My problem is different than most here in that I'm dealing with alcohol abuse on my H's part... there was some alcohol induced infidelity, but that was a symptom which did spark the changes in me and in what I'd continue to put up with.<P>I happy that recovery is going well for you.<BR>

Doug,<P>Tee Hee <P>Ah yes, but how much nicer to receive it from someone else: again, like love. Yes, we can love ourselves, but to be loved... ah, nothing nicer.<P>~Sheryl

Hi Maya,<P> One more thought...you say that your H is unbelievable and tries to meet your needs even though you aren't sure what they are ....are you sure he's not doing anything to make that old love bank go down the drain?...for instance, having disrespectful judgements?....The reason I'm asking is because you sound an awful lot like my H with the no feelings thing and it has been pointed out to me that I'm causing alot of damage by trying to "enlighten" my H about his behavior , thoughts etc....Steve H. pointed this out to me and I think if you can do ONE thing it should be to CALL STEVE H.(I'm sounding like K now!!!) One session and I'm seeing things a whole lot different and then when I filled out the LBusting questionare....whoa, I am the queen of LB and didn't even know it!!! <BR> Please Maya, you want to be in love with your H ......so Call Steve.....the in love feelings will come as a result of certain behaviors etc......(this was promised to me by Steve!) Off my soapbox now!......Lu

I'm one of those ones that "seem" to have no needs. While my marriage wasn't terrible, it wasn't a bed of roses either, all caused by our lack of communication, mine in particular, and our turning away from one another.<P>I recently took a personality test and I was way low on "feelings". Somewhere along the line I had learned to supress them and to avoid conflict. I also never witnessed or experinced "feelings" whil growing up. I was loved by my parents, but we did not hug or kiss or yell or scream or even talk much.<P>In counseling last week, I found out that I did miss that in my childhood and thats probably the reason I do take every opportunity to be with my kids and hug and kiss them so much. I probably over compensate to make up for what I missed in my childhood.<P>I however did not do this for my w and in fact didn't know she craved it(talk about poor communication). She on the other hand I have found out is extremely needy. As her resentment for me grew, I put up my defense shields and neglected her. <P>Simply put, I loved the woman the best way I knew how. It wasn't enough although we did make it almost 16 yrs.<P>She met a smooth talker at work and now they are living together and are planning a life together too.<P>Now all I can do is better myself and raise my kids with or without her help! <P>Hopefully I have learned something through all this and will be wiser in the future!<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

That still doesn't justify an affair, RWD, and don't blame yourself.<P>My H is pretty emotionally stunted too. His family frowns on displays of emotion. He wasn't even allowed to grieve when his mother died (he wasn't even a teenager yet).<P>MY family, on the other hand, is all over the place with emotions. I guess I'm Edgar Bergen and he's Charlie McCarthy on the emotional front -- I do it for us both.<P>I've learned how to evaluate what H does based on his INTENT, not always filtered through the way I do things. He is what he is. He won't change. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and find someone else.

D&C<BR>I no longer blame myself. I did for the first month or two, but I have learned the affair is about her, not me.<P>I wish my stbx would have felt like you!<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Sheryl:<P>Yeah, a Filet-o-Fish and a Coke will keep you from starving. But lobster and a good white are sooooooo much nicer!

Doug,<P>Yeah... yummy... and it does matter, it DOES!<P>Maya,<P>You still around?? Your thread has taken on a life of its own!!

Mmmmm. Makes you wanna go to Red Lobster, eh? Either the literal one OR the figurative one. How could you go wrong? <P>Oh, and yy? In deference to your situation, I shall pass on the white wine, and order one of RL's great non-alc. strawberry daquaris. Very smooth. Very sweet.