Methinks the slug blew up over last week's trip. It's just really too bad your H jumped to the D rather than keep wonderful you.<P>I wouldn't make a thing easy for him. I would (and did) get a lawyer with a reputation of not taking any crap from deserting husbands and getting every thing the wife is entitled to...forever.<P>I planned to be equitable, but it was nice to know my lawyer is considered a baracuda. Do some research, ask divorced friends, especially those who felt their spouse's lawyer was better than theirs.<P>I am sorry for you in this turn of events. DANG IT! <P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Terri}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>

Terri,<P>I've been following your situation and I'm sorry that this has happenned. It's really the pits. Please don't let your H take advantage of you. Time to go into Plan B mode.

Teri,<P>I strongly agree with most on this Post, you need to go to Plan B now. You've Plan A'd for a VERY long time, H needs to know what it feels like to not have you AT ALL and have OW meet all of his needs. OW is gonna fail because your H has been leaning on you for so much.<P>Please seriously consider Plan B, Terri.<P>You have my prayers and God's love.<P>Be well and be strong.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited August 31, 2000).]

Terri,<P>Where are you? Can't help it but I'm worried about you.<P>I know you were thinking fast and while very tired but your plan sounds like what will work for Terri and your H. I'll agree with the others that you must stop meeting any of his needs right now. This friendship thing is such BS. He really needs to understand what "no Terri" means.<P>Since you gave him no answer I'd be concerned with what he does today. At the very least you are not going to be totally shocked when/if you are served. Small consolation I know but for whatever reason, he did let you know.<P>We all know the ultimate goal of the OW is the D. I think Lor(lor)called it right about the trip last week. Which means your H is being pushed and manipulated into this right now.<P>While the thought of waiting yet another year is not something I would choose, it sounds so right for you. No matter what happens that time will pass anyway. It gives your H yet another chance and more time to get away from the slug and a place to return to.(maybe)<P>Let us know how you are doing, feeling okay?

Just a quick note from work ...<P>I am ok. Lots of support here, too - and lots going on. Very stressful at work with the changes that will be happening soon (moving to a different department, different job) and with the beginning of a new semester.<P>Thank you all for your concern and support. I will write more tonight when I am home.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri<P>This is the worst thing! You should take the day off and look for someone to share this with and get a hug from(preferably a girl! )<P>You can do nothing else but plan B. Do the seperation thing, but cut the contact. If he wants to be and a**, then he can be one all by himself!<P>It is time that you only consider yourself for a while. Only you. <P>And yes get the best lawyer!! <P>Like Cheech Maron always says, "Nail him to the wall, man!"

Terri,<BR>I'm so sorry.. I wasn't expecting this at all! I thought it would be a good news...<P>But it's not over, and I totally agree with Lor, I'm sure OW must have said/done something about you and your H being together for the funeral.<P>I think I told you a while ago that your post reminded me of Molli's. Have you read her posts? She Plan Aed really well then her H came along, and he started to hide from OW when he was spending time with Molli. She kept Plan Aing and at the end (I think) he decided to break up with OW. I don't know how they are doing right now.. Also SDS.. her H was going back and forth and then he told her that he wanted to be with her then right after he told her he was lying to her.. so she decided to move on her life and they got divorced but he came back and I think they both moved to TX..<P>So even if your H wants to divorce you still have chances. <P>If you are ready for Plan B I think it's good... When I did Plan B(without knowint... I skipped Plan A ), it really helped me because I still had pain from what he's done at least I was emotionally detached so I rarely thought about OW and H in the present. (then I went to Plan A so it became hell!!! )<P>Terri, hang in there, you seem ok, and this road is going to be long so take care of yourself.<P>Meg<BR>

I've been thinking about all of the things that all of you have said. And about all of the things that have been going on.<P>I suppose it is possible that slug is behind this somehow. But I am afraid to believe anything right now. I have approached this with a soul-deep certainty that we belong together ... and I still know that it would work if he would try. But I don't know if I am deluding myself thinking that he really will ever realize what he's doing or has done.<P>I know that he's not happy. I know that he's not happy about seeking a divorce. I know that he's not happy that he's hurting me. A co-worker of mine said today that even though she WANTED a divorce in her first marriage, it was a hard thing to do. I don't understand that. I think that if it is difficult, then it is not right. I guess I have always believed in doing what is right...<P>I am so confused about what to do ... part of me wants to hurt back, part of me wants it to be over with and part of me wants to keep trying. I know that if I don't "fight" that a lot of people will think I need psychological help... and right now, I don't know that they are so wrong.<P>I feel like I'm being punished for something awful that I did in my life ... and there are one or two not so great things. I feel like I haven't been given a chance to make up for the not so great (but not so awful) things I've done in my marriage, too.<P>I know that I would give him a third chance ... I know that I would work hard to make the relationship work. I am not asking him for anything I wouldn't give to him.<P>I know I will be ok... but I don't feel too ok at the moment...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Terri,<P>I agree with K and the others about <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A><P>It is designed to help you get through this...<P>((((((((((((((prayers))))))))))))))<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Terri,<P>First of all I am so sorry for the pain that you are feeling right now as you know I can definately relate.<P>I agree that the OW is behind this somewhat. This is how I see it and forgive me if I am a little repetitious.<P>You and your H have been spending a great deal of time together. Time that according to you seems to be time that he has been enjoying. <P>I also see this.... I see that the OW is picking up on this and turning the heat up some. Now it is up to you to be strong for the two of you once again. I would say that she is probably LB'ing a great deal.<P>I am sure that she has her suspicions but is it possible that she may have found out about the trip to his uncle's services? I would say that would be a BIG JOLT to her own security.<P>My guess is that she is beginning to behave the way we as the betrayed did when we first found out. And you know how well your H reacted to that. Perhaps I am a little off there but I can't really remember the beginning real well but I think you get my point.<P>I also agree that it is Plan B time. Let him suffer some withdrawl from you and live in HELL with her. I am sure that it will get old real fast. You two have started building a new and different kind of relationship and it is one that I am certain he will miss.<P>My H pulled this friend stuff too. But what it actually was.... was a way to try and still hold on but without letting the OW know that he was. For the sake of the kids he said but that was an excuse.<P>My thoughts are with you and I will be checking back. But please do one thing for me.... try not to let it affect you so much. I know that it is very very hard but you have to start playing him a little instead of letting him play you. I know that sounds a little manipulative but as I see it, the OW has been quite manipulative and it is time to fight fire with fire.<P>I am not suggesting that you do anything underhanded at all that could and most likely would come back to haunt you but play it smart!!!! You have alot of knowledge about how things work out with this sort of thing and it is time to put that knowledge to work.<P>I can tell you as I am sure you know already.... I and most of us went through a final blow and hurdle before we reconciled with our spouses. That is what this could be. I have just been very optimistic for you two and I just don't think that the fat lady has sung yet.<P>{{{{{{{{{{TERRI}}}}}}}}}}<P>Genie

What can I say? In some ways this is nearly as hurtful as finding out about the affair to begin with. It doesn't really matter why it is happening - it simply IS happening.<P>I did call him at work today and asked him what went on - his lawyer is supposed to file papers. I also told him that I am willing to go the legal separation route but will not sign any other divorce papers.<P>We shall see. I don't have any energy and this time of year is incredibly busy, stressful and draining under the best of circumstances. Add to that impending change in office and job and THEN add impending divorce - I am amazed that I haven't had to be carted away as yet!<P>Plan B letter must still wait. I don't even have the energy to find it right now. Soon, though. I know it is the only thing left for my marriage, and most of all, for my dignity.<P>Thank you all...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi Terri -<P>I am so sorry that he's come up with this now....just when you and he have started to get some outside the pizza place activities going on. (golf, the "ride" to the funeral, etc.)<P>I really believe that there is a twofold reason for his pushing this now.....One, of course, is that slug doesn't like it and is letting him know and Two is that he is liking it a bit too much and is scaring himself a little. <P>It's ironic that they confuse their way into this affair business and then get petrified when they face more confusion as events change their "feelings" back in our direction. It's understandable though because that is when they have to admit to themselves that they may have been wrong about "us".<P>I know how hard this is for you, Terri.<BR>You see and feel the potential for you, your husband and your marriage...at times you see that he does too somewhere inside. Yet they pull back and that is one more anchor to us to keep trying, waiting and believing.<P>Please don't let this do a number on your self-esteem or your pride again. When you said "dignity", I cringed!!!<BR>Honey, you exhibit dignity every second that you act according to what you belief and want for your life. What exactly is dignity? I always thought that it is strength of character in behaving toward the good of your beliefs in the face of adversity. Isn't that what you are doing? Then - you have your dignity very much intact I would say!!!! <P>It is always easier to run or give in without putting in the time, effort and sacrafice to truly work towards what you really want and know is best. I, for one, admire you greatly!!! <P>Neither you or I know what is in store for our marriages....even if divorce happens, who is to say that that is the "end" anyway? I do know one thing about my situation (and I think that you know it about yours) and that is that there is definitely a "place" in the rest of my life where he will be......and I don't mean just the "memories" either. <BR>I wanted to give you a little warning about what tends to happen when lawyers get involved....Communication gets very guarded!!! They tell you not to write anything, not to say too much, etc. It is a new form of eggshell walking and it certainly does nothing to ease tensions between you....it creates more. <P>I was stuck with this since the beginning of his leaving and me finding MB and learning....If he hadn't involved lawyers from the getgo I wonder if we would have been able to break some barriers by now. Won't know though, so there is no sense thinking that way. <P>But when this is in the works, people on the outside (family, friends, etc.) tend to get very negative about any inclinations you or he will have to even remain civil let alone entertain thoughts of reconciling. I just want you to be prepared for that in case it should happen. <P>I know that my H's buddies (women and men) as well as his folks, leave no room for his attempting to reconcile. They definitely affect him and can change and stomp on any second thoughts he may get.<BR>Good example is his refusal of a plan I came up with that would benefit us both financially but would delay the divorce for a couple of years....he said no cuz "I can't tell everybody that I am not getting divorced for two years - I don't want to have to hear them".<P>So, it can inhibit any progress for him if this happens......I hope it won't for you, but it did/does for me.<P>The only one who isn't influenced by the legalities too much is me!!!! That's cuz I know what I want....I stick to it and it really isn't too difficult!!<P>I have no confusion....except when they get to the legalities and that is when I have to fret about what to say or do so I don't end up getting screwed.<BR>(although it really doesn't matter cuz I get screwed anyway!! LOL!!)<P>If you have things that you want to say, let him know, etc. DO IT!!!!! Do it now before the legalalities are off and running. Write to him....just don't put anything they can use against you down..<BR>Talk to him.....whatever you need to let him know. Also, let him know that this part of it is his "thing" and although you will be cooperative because you love him, you will not be actively enthusiastic about it because you don't believe that it is the correct route to be taken.<P>I don't know what you need to do as far as Plan A or B....you know you best. I am not a B'er!!! But that's me!!!!<P>I do know that you can change some things that you may do (or not do) that hinder your effect with him or your own self-esteem.....Only you know what those might be. <P>A continued overall presence of a self-assured, independent woman who is CHOOSING to love and believe in the man she married is very dignified!!!! And he is very lucky....even if he doesn't realize it yet!!!!<P>BIG HUGS, PRAYERS and STRENGTH to you,<P>Sheba<P>

Thank you, Sheba... Plan B is not attractive to me, but I think it is mostly because of the fear of losing him forever out of my life. On the one hand, I think that if he is so important to me, how terrible would it be to be his friend? And then I think of how it makes me feel to love him and share only that tiny part of his life that he allows me to share... He is not my friend the way a friend should be, even - he does not share time that I want to share, only what won't get him into trouble with the slug. What kind of friendship is that?<P>I will post my revised Plan B letter under another topic ... I am still not sure when I will give it to him - at this point, I want to know what is going on - I don't want to find out when a stranger knocks on my door. And there is still so MUCH stress in my life that I am beginning to feel frozen by too many decisions...<P>I ask myself lots of questions and still am confused: If I chose to remain friends with him, is it because I truly care about him or because I am afraid to let go. If I go to Plan B, will he cut off his nose to spite his face and never look back because he believes he cannot? Is he doing this because it is truly what he believes is right in his heart - or because slug is pushing him to do it - or exactly why? There are thousands more questions and I need to answer some of them myself - some of them will likely remain unanswered for a long time or perhaps forever.<P>I am not handling this well at all. After the recent events, it is so shocking that this is the next step he takes. Before he called the other day, I was simply enjoying the closeness that I felt... even entertaining the idea that perhaps Plan B wouldn't be necessary... I feel like a fool right now.<P>Dignity IS a matter of following what it is you believe. I have been doing that and don't feel that I've been wrong up to this point - but now I don't know what to do. I want to stop feeling this pain I feel, but I also don't want to give up when I know that this isn't the right thing for us. I know that more than I know anything else: We have something very special, and this divorce is WRONG...<P>Gotta go now ... I am watering my keyboard again... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

terri,<P>Plan B is rarely attractive, but sometimes it's the best plan for the relationship. Without getting preachy or pushy, I really feel that you're getting to the point where you need to be in Plan B, and God knows your husband is way past the point where he needs to see what Plan B feels like.<P>From the strictly "Harley" sense, Plan A is about avoiding lovebusters, learning new marital behaviors, and convincing your spouse that you have changed, and the marriage can be a terrific, safe place to be.<P>You get A+'s on all fronts.<P>I think it's time---really and truly. I don't think you're in any "danger" of losing him if you do go to Plan B; no more than if you don't. But I do think that this continued hope/despair cycle will wear on you until the point that you either completely give up or become vulnerable to an outside relationship.<P>Batten the hatches, and load the torpedos. It's plan B time. Arrroooooggghhhhaaa!!! <P>(Seriously. If you don't believe me, I think Steve owes you a consult). Tell him to take it out of my referral fees.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(Seriously. If you don't believe me, I think Steve owes you a consult). Tell him to take it out of my referral fees.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and I'll spring for session #2. It's the least I can do after all the help you 've given me.<P>Seriously.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Terri:<P>A friend at my office just got divorced this year after an eight year separation. Six months ago, I feared this might be me, that I wouldn't be able to get myself out of this trap. It won't be - I started the divorce last week.<P>A few months ago you had started to see someone else and were packing up your husband's things from your apartment. I don't want to tell you what to do, but I really want you to ask yourself WHY you're fighting for this so hard now. In my case, I think it had to do with two things 1) fear of an unknown future and 2) a complete unwillingness to accept that I am not in control of the outcome of the marriage, my husband is. You will note that NEITHER REASON has the slightest thing to do with love or respect for my husband. I probably would have fought this hard for any jerk, and in fact probably did. I said it was about love, but in hindsight I'm fairly clear that it probably wasn't.<P>Terri, unfortunately, your husband closed down emotionally to you in the same way mine did to me. Only he can CHOOSE to open up again. While his friendliness ebbs and flows, as near as I can tell, there's nothing in his behavior to indicate a change in the most significant ways - a willingness to OPENLY COMMUNICATE, RECOGNIZE HIS OWN ROLE, FORGIVE YOU FOR YOUR MISTAKES AND APPRECIATE YOUR CHANGES, AND ACTIVELY MAKE AMENDS. If he was pursuing counseling, making attempts to work this through with friends or family, or in some other way looking for solutions to the marital problems, you would have some basis for hope. After two years, it still appears to me that he hasn't taken the first step. My husband never did.<P>Just one other thought regarding Plan Aing too long. This is my mistake so please don't take offense. In my opinion, your husband's expectation that you'll be his friend through divorce should be no surprise. In my case, it is what I had shown through my behavior. In essence, I took Plan A too far and fully accepted the affair, and even one step further. I tried to win him back from the affair and treated him better than ever. I acted like the situation was my fault, not his. No matter what he did, I never lovebusted. I did all the apologizing and all the changing. I knew he didn't want to talk about things so I never brought up any issues. We had nearly zero OR talks. I gave him unconditional love and burdened myself with every responsibility and problem. He came to expect it and also to expect he would have it forever. Isn't that what I showed him through my behavior? Frankly, I think my husband's belief that he would always have my friendship is more rational than my indignation at his assuming I would smile through divorce. Here's the paradox - we really have convinced them that our love is unconditional, that it's not just manipulation to get them back. We achieved all the goals of Plan A. And guess what? It's still not enough. Not because of us, but because of them. We have not failed. They are just unwilling to open themselves up to the possibility of returning to the marriage. Changing this is not within our control.<P>I don't know whether Plan B will bring back your husband, but I place no chance on Plan A at this point. But what I really hope is that you concentrate your obviously tremendous energy on making your life wonderful, independent of your husband. Let the chips fall where they may for the marriage since you can't control it anyway. Your life is far too precious to spend waiting for someone else to do the right thing.<P>Terri, I've come to know you from your posts and think you're smart, committed, hard-working, educated, and tough. You have all the traits to be a great partner and a huge success in life. You will have a wonderful life whether you're back with your husband or not. The goodness and happiness are within you, not dependent on anyone else.<p>[This message has been edited by Distressed (edited September 05, 2000).]

Terri,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In essence, I took Plan A too far and fully accepted the affair, and even one step further. I tried to win him back from the affair and treated him better than ever. I acted like the situation was my fault, not his. No matter what he did, I never lovebusted. I did all the apologizing. I knew he didn't want to talk about things so I never brought up an issues. I gave him unconditional love and burdened myself with every responsibility and problem. He came to expect it and also to expect he would have it forever. Isn't that what I showed him through my behavior?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Distressed makes sense, I think. It certainly sounds like the way I have tried to Plan A. I have bent over backwards trying to accommodate my H's needs and not LB, but his attitude seems to be one of entitlement.<P>So, maybe you have Plan A'd so well that your H thinks he can be with Slug, yet always keep you in his life as well. I think you need to let Slug meet ALL his needs for a change. Betcha there's no way she can!

Terri,<P>Love and best wishes coming your way. Everyone else has said it. Hey, you got K and Whodat to come out of the woodwork. I never got them both [you are supposed to smile now]<P>Wishing us the Best.<P>Zippy

Distressed, your points are all well taken. I do want to answer one in particular, however, because I do think it is extremely important that I clarify this. You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A few months ago you had started to see someone else and were packing up your husband's things from your apartment. I don't want to tell you what to do, but I really want you to ask yourself WHY you're fighting for this so hard now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What are the reasons that a person who loves their spouse might have an affair? Their emotional needs are going unmet? Being separated as long as I was, and with my husband behaving as if he didn't want to even speak to me, I was very vulnerable to the attention paid to me by someone that seemed to be very sweet, kind and attentive. I became quickly infatuated and even obsessed to some extent with this individual, hungry as I was for the attention he was paying - and I was ready to say that my marriage was over and done. I even went so far as to purchase a "do it yourself uncontested divorce" kit. But then I started reading the book and filling out some of the forms - and it occurred to me that divorce was NOT what I wanted. It wasn't long after that when I was rudely awakened to the fact that I'd been used by my "Prince Charming" - swept off my feet and deposited into the dumpster (not literally) when he was finished with me. Wow! And I'd nearly divorced my husband over THAT?<P>My point is that I wasn't really ready even then to discard my marriage - I was simply ripe for an "affair" - as many of the waywards that have come here were. And I fell prey to the same come ons that many fall prey to. At that point, suddenly I didn't NEED my spouse - didn't WANT my spouse! Sound familiar?<P>While I know I don't need to "defend" my committment to my marriage, I felt that I should address this issue. Quite honestly, I've surprised that no one has asked about it before this, so I certainly take no offense at all.<P>The other points about "too long" in Plan A - I believe that there may be some validity there - although I still believe that I needed to continue longer in Plan A than many simply because there is so little opportunity to show him the ways in which I've changed. After this past summer, the golfing, the visits to talk about his ideas, discussions about all manner of things ... I believe I have shown him... even when he was here to tell me he wanted a divorce, I didn't cry - I didn't resort to harsh words or meanness (ok, I MIGHT have LB'd about slug JUST A LITTLE by calling her 'some whore in a bar' but I think that I might be forgiven for that). I didn't tell him to get out, but didn't hug him and kiss him and beg him to stay either. All indications of MAJOR changes in the way I can deal with emotional upset. I still believe that we could make it, and I KNOW he still cares deeply about me because he has SAID he does (of course the qualifier is there that it is not love the way it 'should be' for marriage). For me, knowing that we had moved closer than we have in a very long time is the reason I am fighting so hard now. Because I know this divorce is WRONG.<P>Anyway ... no hard feelings, Distressed - this sucks no matter if you decide to give up and let them have their way or if you fight... and no matter what - if WE are okay in the end, whatever we did is the right thing (well, except maybe severing the brake cables on the runaway truck that careens down the hill as the OP is crossing the street... )<P>Sweetpea - you are absolutely right. There IS no way that slug can meet all of his needs. Unless "duh" is the extent of his need for conversation. <P>Zippy - thanks for the good wishes. I DID smile... I got K and WhoDat AND Medic all on the same thread! I AM pretty special, ain't I?<P>Thank you ALL - I have had a horrible weekend, but I am going to be OK. One foot in front of the other ... baby steps ... baby steps ... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>