After reading and rereading my H's post I think I might have realized something. I hope that this doesn't come out as an over-reastion because I don't want it to.<P>I think that maybe my taker was taking over for awhile in wanting to do things other than sit at home and watch tv or do things on the computer. I realize that yes my H is very tired when he gets home and it isn't far for me to want to go for a walk or to the park after he has been up for close to 14 hours by the time we have finished dinner. I shouldn't expect him to want to do anything but relax and watch tv or do overtime work on the computer. The overtime work on the computer is giving him more training in his line of work and I am happy that he is getting the time to be able to expand his horizons. He has worked so hard to be able to get this training that I shouldn't stand in the way of him utilizing it to his advantage,<P>On the weekends I try to let him sleep in as late as possible. Like ES said, he is usually up by 3:30 in the morning and I know that he enjoys getting the extra sleep on the weekend. I also take our D to the park on the weekends sometimes that way he can have some peace and quiet time in the house without having to have our D nagging at him all the time.<P>I'm glad that there are people here who are supporting both of us, but I'm really glad that Dazed and Confused and Sheba have replied as well. It has given me some insight as to what I need to do to make my marriage work better. And no my H is NOT the bad guy here

Lor,<P>We were posting at the same time and I didn't get your reply until after I had posted.<P>As far as getting a phone call or calling ES during the day, I don't really think that could be an option. ES is on the phones all day except for an hour and that hour is for lunch. I don't think it would be fair for me to call him or him to call me when that is what he does all day long. <P>There is a guy that works with ES that is always talking to his wife while at work. This gentleman either calls her or she calls him and from what ES has says, it interfers with what he is suppose to be doing. I don't want to interfere with ES's job and get him into trouble with his boss. I also don't want his co-workers looking down on him because he talks to his wife on the phone during the day.<P>We do talk every once in awhile via Yahoo messenger, but sometimes I feel like when I do talk to him using this, all I'm doing is bugging him so I don't send messages to him unless I need to know something.<P>I also don't think sending emails back and forth would do anything for me. Just to impersonal sometimes I think.

Without having paid a lot of attention to the "details", I'd make these suggestions:<P>Do fun stuff together. It's very important. It doesn't have to be "hang-gliding" (we'll leave that to terri), but you should spend quality time together.<P>ES: your job is taking way too much out of you. You want to be married??? You better fix this component. Hopefully you can get promoted out of the situation you're in, but you're making your job too much of a priority. Changing jobs, changing careers, moving---all these are negotiatable components of a POJA discussion between you and hopeful to work on the issue of spending quality time together.<P>

K<P>I figured I'd jump in here and defend ES as far as his job is concerned. Right now, ES is the only one working and our only source of income for our family. We need the income to live. I do understand why he is so tired. It's not so much the job part of it but having to get up so early in the morning, driving to work and then the drive home from work. Right now we can't afford to move closer to were he works, so for now he carpools.<P>I'm the one who needs to work around the fact that he just wants to relax when he gets home. He did change jobs to help provide a better life for his W and D. I think he is doing very well and has many chances at advancement. He may have to deal with what he's doing for about a year before he can really have a chance to move up or into a different aspect of the job. <P>Maybe we work it so that all we do during the week is watch TV or do things on the computer. On the weekends maybe we go to the park more or just take a walk somewhere. Right now he has to have the job and maybe have it as a priority for now until I can find something that will support us so he can find something closer to home. We would like to be able to put a roof over our D's head and food on the table.

Hey, guys, maybe it'll help you if I tell you a bit about how I've handled my H's crazy hours. Like ES, my H gets up at 3:30-4 AM to leave the house by 6:30. From 5:30-6 AM we have "snuggle time." Then he finishes getting ready for work and I read the paper. Then he comes down for quick breakfast and leaves for work.<P>Now, granted, I work too, so I don't have the kind of isolation time that Hopeful has.<P>In the evening, I try to get home by 6, so we can have dinner together. Either he grills and I make everything else, or in the winter I cook. Then I do the dishes, then we watch TV for an hour or thereabouts till about 9, when H goes to sleep. Sometimes (maybe once a week), I'll turn in early too. Other than that, I'll watch a movie on TV, work on my writing, or answer my E-mail. I suppose that this is time that some people could be susceptible to hooking up online with people they shouldn't...but I don't. I don't participate in chat rooms, though I do messageboards (as you know ).<P>For a long time this alone time bothered me, until I learned to make use of it. For a long time the lack of weekday sex bothered me until I started regarding Saturday nights as a special "date night" instead of "only once a week."<P>I re-worked much of my activity schedule so that I can be with my H on the weekends as much as possible. I get my hair done in early morning appts. I go to the movies only once over the weekend, usually when he's napping. I try to plan something fun for us to do.<P>What I do NOT do is keep score. Games like "You don't do your share of the housework" and "Why do I have to do all the work in this relationship" DO NOT WORK. All they do is foster resentment. Yes, I do all the housework. If I don't do it, it doesn't get done. If I REALLY need help, I ask. Yes, I do all the relationship work. But the rewards have been worth it.<P><BR>

Just a little update. They still have not announced the promotions. They were supposed to have been announced last Thursday and the 10 of us who applied and interviewed are still waiting for the results.<P>I was also notified this afternoon, that effective tomorrow, and until further notice I am required to be at work at 5:30 am instead of 6:00 am. That means I have to get up at 3:00 am for the foreseeable future.<P>Sleep would be a good thing . . .<P>Lor (Lor) -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>would/do phone calls from ES during the day help? Email?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am quite literally on the phone the entire day. I also deal a great deal with Email. I simply don't have the time to carry on any type of meaningful conversation. I do have, as hopeful mentioned, Yahoo Messenger installed both at work and at home. Hopeful can talk to me any time she wants. It may not be instaneous depending on what I am doing at the moment, but we can "talk."<P>K -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ES: your job is taking way too much out of you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, I work in a very competative, high tech market place. In order to get into the high paying areas of my profession, I have to have specific industry certificates. College degrees don't do much good unless you want to get into management, which I don't really. The certificates are expensive. the tests themselves average about $125 a pop. To get into actually training classes . . .Anywhere from $5000 to $7500. Obviously I can not afford to put mysaelf through the training classes on my own, so I am forced to find employers who are willing to pay for some type of training. The companies who are willing to do this tend to demand an awful lot in return. An awful lot . . . <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You want to be married??? You better fix this component. Hopefully you can get promoted out of the situation you're in, but you're making your job too much of a priority. Changing jobs, changing careers, moving---all these are negotiatable components of a POJA<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do I want to be married? . . .Nope, I just put my self through almost three years of pure torture because I am into self abuse.<P>Of course I want to be married But as hopeful mentioned in her reply to you, I am the sole source of income for our family. I have EXACTLY two options as a result. I can do what I have to do in order to support my family, or I can quit and we can go on welfare.<P>Neither option is ideal, but short of winning the lottery . . . <P>Dazed and Confused -- Thank you for understanding. and thank you for offering you advice and support. It means a great deal to me.<P>God Bless

ES:<P>I refuse to believe that in today's tight job market that you can't come up with creative ways to make a living that won't kill you. You say that you don't want management, but have you actually tried it? I know that our large pharmaceutical company is dying to hire IT professionals---there's a $5K bonus/head for referrals that end up hired. I just find it nearly impossible to believe that there aren't better situations in the country for you.<P>I'd suggest dusting off that cv and finding a headhunter or two to start making calls. And I know that it's a mighty fine feeling to go into an interview and come out with a job offer---it might change your outlook.<P>I do understand the need to be certified and trained in specific areas, but it really sounds like you're getting a raw deal. The IT people that I work with do work hard---but not those riduculous hours. And we bake them brownies and take them out to lunch all the time---just so they won't leave us!<P>Hang in there, ES. I get up at 5 am every morning, and I thought I had it rough...

I know you guys mean well, but ES's job situation is so much like my H's history it's downright scary. He started on a help desk (phone tech support), then got his Novell certification (paying for it himself), and got progressively better positions.<P>If ES doesn't have a degree, that's also a factor.<P>Information Systems, especially in the hardware/networking area, is very demanding. There's no such thing as getting trained and then "taking it easy." In this field, you're learning for life, and there's no such thing as working 9-5. You work, you carry a beeper, and then you study in your off time.<P>I've lived it with my H, and ES is not exaggerating. And yes, it can be hard on a marriage. That's why I've said that Hopeful is going to have to build up her own psyche so that she doesn't rely on ES for all of her self-worth and all of her entertainment. Until ES gets his certifications, she's going to have to carry a lot of the weight of the relationship. That's just how it is.<P>Alternatively, ES can get off the "fast track" and Hopeful can go to work as well, so he's not a sole breadwinner. This is something they'll have to work out for themselves.<P>It's not easy. Sometimes I resent that my H goes to sleep at 9:00; but instead of griping about what I can't change, I use that time for projects I want to work on.<P>Unfortunately, in today's society, being a 9-to-5'er is regarded as being a "slacker", particularly in the IS field.<P>ES, I know this doesn't help your time factor any, but if you're going for Novell or MSCE or Cisco certification, and your employer won't pay for them, there are very good books available for self-study at Barnes and Noble. My H got his Novell certification without attending any classes -- he did it all on self-study, and now he's doing it for Cisco cert. Many employers don't want to pay for certifications, because they're afraid you'll take it elsewhere. $50 for a book is a lot less than $1400 for a class.<p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited September 06, 2000).]

Damn it all . . .I had a long reply almost finished when my browser locked up on me, and I lost it all. Just goes to show that my day has NOT been good. . .<P>As I started by saying in my first attempt at replying to this thread . . .I want to apologize up front if I come off more forceful than might be called for.<P>I was called into the bossess office this afternoon and informed that I was not getting the promotion. I was told that I was in fact qualified for the promotion, but that the people who did in fact receive the promotion were more qualified in "some" areas than I was. MY A$$ ! ! ! Of the three who did receive the promotions, one is in fact very qualified for the promotion and I think that she is a very good choice. One of them was the LEAST qualified of those who applied. This person has, themselves, screwed up three computers requiring that they (the computers) either be reloaded or replaced. The third person who was promoted is "procedurally" qualified, but does not come any where close to being technically qualified. In fact they came up to me after they had their interview and told me that they hoped I got the job, because I was more qualified than they were.<P>I am absolutely livid by this whole situation. I have been insulted and berated by the choices that were made.<P>So with my little vent over and done with, again, please accept my apology if I should be overly agressive in my responses.<P>K -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You say that you don't want management, but have you actually tried it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a matter of fact I have. I have over 10 years of management experience up to and including director level. I would much rather stay technical. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I refuse to believe that in today's tight job market that you can't come up with creative ways to make a living that won't kill you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is precisely the fact that there is such a tight job market that things are so difficult. Companies would rather promote from within than to pay the salary and incentives which the job market requires. You mentioned that in your company they pay a bonus for finding and referring emplyoees who are hired. With those types of stakes, don't you think that a perspective employer is going to be VERY "picky" in who they actually hire? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just find it nearly impossible to believe that there aren't better situations in the country for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Finding these potentially better situations would require about an 80 mile movewere we to stay in this state. This would also require approximately a 50% increase in rent, plus moving expenses, first and last months rent, security deposit, etc. Moving out of state would have the same draw-backs and then some. In addition to those "costs" above, inter-state moving expenses would have to be added. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do understand the need to be certified and trained in specific areas, but it really sounds like you're getting a raw deal. The IT people that I work with do work hard---but not those riduculous hours. And we bake them brownies and take them out to lunch all the time---just so they won't leave us!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds to me like you work for a company which is an exception to the rule. Finding a company which provides good pay, good working conditions, training and advancement oportunities and BROWNIES (I am really jealous by the way) would be almost too good to ask for. Believe me, I work for a VERY large computer company, and while the pay is good for the state I live in, they simply do not offer all of these type of benefits unless you are the golden child or upper management.<P>Dazed and Confused -- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If ES doesn't have a degree, that's also a factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do have an AA degree in CIS. Unfortunately, this doesn't hold much water.<P>From your description . . . Your H and I probably have a great deal in common (professionally). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Alternatively, ES can get off the "fast track" and Hopeful can go to work as well, so he's not a sole breadwinner. This is something they'll have to work out for themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would be in heaven if I could play "MR. MOM" hopeful has a BA in business, she simply can not even get to the point where she can get an interview for a job. I know that this is not her fault, but as K mentioned, the job market is VERY tight, and the employers can afford to hire EXACTLY what they want in an employee. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Information Systems, especially in the hardware/networking area, is very demanding. There's no such thing as getting trained and then "taking it easy." In this field, you're learning for life, and there's no such thing as working 9-5. You work, you carry a beeper, and then you study in your off time. . .Unfortunately, in today's society, being a 9-to-5'er is regarded as being a "slacker", particularly in the IS field.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Boy do you ever have that right <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>there are very good books available for self-study at Barnes and Noble. My H got his Novell certification without attending any classes -- he did it all on self-study, and now he's doing it for Cisco cert. Many employers don't want to pay for certifications, because they're afraid you'll take it elsewhere. $50 for a book is a lot less than $1400 for a class.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Once again you are correct. I have gotten some of the certification books, and have started going through them. My biggest draw-back is that I do not have direct access to some of the system because of the actual job I do. That can make understanding concepts difficult sometimes, as I am sure you are aware.<P>Well guys, I am going to close, before my browser decides to die on me again. I hope I wasn't to *****y.<P>God Bless<P>