There isn't a single flame on this thread.<P>If you want to have an affair (a dating relationship while still married), don't look for our blessing.<P>Chris (ME!) wasn't telling Jo to go somewhere else unless she wants to be supported to date while she is married.<P>If it's okay, then why is it everyone who has done it, says don't! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will tell you from personal, RECENT experience that IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!<P>!!!!!!!!!!!!OUCH!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jill & FA, Jo came here looking for advice/support. She got it. She didn't get flamed once in this thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>To all of you "holier than thou" types,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Referiing to whom? I don't see any h"holier than thou tyoes in this thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder how many people come to this site and lurk and never post out of fear of being flamed,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wouldn't have a clue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>is that what Dr. Harley and his marriagebuilder's principles are all about? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>His principles are about doing the RIGHT thing and sticking to the marriage until it is over by divorce, not until you're tired of trying and not getting anything in return..<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No one should feel that they are going to get flamed for posting what they are thinking or feeling<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're right. Jo felt she <B>may</B> get flamed because she was considering a relationship which is against all the MB principles & against marriage in general. However, as you can tell from this thread, no one flamed her in the slightest.<BR>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><P>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 12, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 12, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>To all of you "holier than thou" types, I wonder how many people come to this site and lurk and never post out of fear of being flamed, is that what Dr. Harley and his marriagebuilder's principles are all about? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>FA - I am one of those who come here often but have posted only a few times because of the things that I have seen written. I have read some of the "battles" that you have had, and I think it is very sad that people's opinions and feelings are not respected. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I shouldn't have to be slammed, flamed or told to change channels because I have a different opinion, which I am about to express. <P>Crazy - I am the betrayer in my marriage and I often have different views than most people here, but I too have noticed that some people here have almost made this cult-like. Some people here have truly been helped by the information and counseling here, but they have also risen the Harleys to almost God-like status, and that is very, very dangerous, by placing them at this status level, it is as though they themselves can in turn condemn those that don't follow them to the "T". I don't believe that the Harleys would treat people the way that some of their followers do.<P>Resilient - I am a WS, therefore my opinion may not mean much here, but I believe that before you pursue anything with this man that you are sure that your marriage is over and that if your husband came back, you wouldn't take him. If that is where you are at, file for divorce or have your husband do it, then talk with this other man and see where it leads. Our time on this planet is much to short to endure unnecessary suffering, whether it be at the hands of a WS who has no conscience and little guilt about their actions, or a BS that spent years as an abusive spouse only to become a "how could you have done this to me" spouse once they discover the affair. <P>While I don't post much because of the flaming that I have seen go on, I do believe that this is the best place for you to be.

kk, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but they have also risen the Harleys to almost God-like status, and that is very, very dangerous, by placing them at this status level,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I personally don't place them even close to "god-like status". They do have the experience of dealing with affairs for over 55 years combined time, so I believe they know what they are talking about. Besides this is a MB site & of course we follow the MB principles. What is wrong with telling people they are not following them?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>it is as though they themselves can in turn condemn those that don't follow them to the "T".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who was condemned in this thread? People come here to learn how to save a marriage, not to get stroked and told, "whatever you want to do is okay, and if it feels good, then you really deserve it 'cause you got screwed over by the Mrs/Mr."<P>To everyone,<P>Jo asked, "Am I bad for feeling like this? What do I do?"<P>No one told her she was "bad for feeling this way." People told her how to deal with it. Why is she feeling guilty if she herself did not feel it was wrong?<BR>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 12, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>MB isn't a cult that has to be followed to the exact letter. I feel this is a forum where we can all lean on eachother for support and advice and learn how to be a all around better person. Plan A and B isn't just about getting our spouses back its about learning to be a better person to ourselves and others. If it works and you get your spouse back than great, but if not than you can use all the useful and wise things you have learned here to make your next relationship better. For Chris to tell Jo that there are other sites more suited for her was WRONG! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well said. <P>There is nothing wrong with telling jo with how to deal with it, but in my opinion, telling her that there are other sites more suited for her was a flame.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Flame away!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This sounds to me to be a little more than someone feeling as though they <B>may</B> get flamed, sounds like it was an expectation, which is too bad. I will stick to what I stated earlier, <B>no one should feel as though they are going to be or may be flamed for stating a thought, an opinion or a feeling, even if that thought, opinion or feeling doesn't always exactly go hand in hand with marriagebuilder principles.</B><P>Can we all be a little less rigid and a little more understanding and compassionate??<P><BR>

To everyone,<P>I apologize if I seem a bit insensitive. By no means did I intend to be.<P>My purpose for being on this website is to help myself & help others through what is most likely the singlularly most horrific & painful event in our lives.<P>If you are looking for validation you will receive it. If you are looking for advice, you will receive it. If you are looking for someone to tell you, "everything you WANT to do is okay" then you will NOT receive it.<P>This site is dedicated to helping people save marriages using the Marriage Builders principles. In the event a marriage is not saveable, then these principles will help you get through a divorce with as little emotional trauma & damage as possible.<P>Like it or not, this stuff works. Not always and not in every case. There are no guarantees anywhere on this web site.<P>Want the best possible chance? I believe it is here using the MB principles.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I said; <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you wish to have reassurance that it is okay to go out with others while still married (even though your marriage is a sham or are quickly approaching divorce) then there are other sites where you can get all the support you need.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't believe I told her to leave this site.<P>It was more aimed at others telling her it is okay to date while married. However, if Jo is looking for people to tell her it's okay (& I don't believe she is) then she can find other sites where people will tell her ANYTHING she wants to hear.<P>I recommend she stay here.<P>And I believe she wrote "flame away" because in her own mind she knows it's wrong.<BR>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><P>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 12, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 12, 2000).]

I can't imagine that I fall into the "holier than thou" category, and I am wise enough to know that I feel worse about the OM since I am back with my H than I was feeling about him when I was seeking a divorce.<P>I think since this is the Marriage Builders site, if you want your marriage, a rule of thumb is: will what you are planning to do help or hurt your marriage. <P>Of course, opinions will vary, but as I see it, dating, other than the temporary spouse jealousy factor & a temporary lift of the betrayed self-esteem, does not in the long run help the marriage.<P>Jo says she feels guilty & bad about herself. That indicates that she does not feel she made a good choice. Or perhaps, that she is not ready at this time.<P>Certainly, I posted the whole time I was seeing the OM, albeit I posted less & not much about that relationship. It infuriated my H, who was reading the MB threads at that time that people were so gentle with me, saying a betrayed is vulnerable, but what I was doing wasn't a great idea. There was no reason for that relationship not to do ok, other than I loved my H, and it failed. However, that relationship has made my marital recovery that much more difficult.<P>Keep in mind what your goals are, not what would be a quick fix or feels good for the moment--don't we all wish that's what betrayers would have as first priority?<P>