Yes...<P>Do/give something for your anniversary...<P>A card with warm sentiments is good...<BR>...definitely not comething extravagent...<P>...although...<P>this "friendship" thing still bothers me...<P>I don't know how you can start a reconciliation... without it being the "wife" thing instead?<P>"I just need to show him how good things can be with us."...<BR>...as a <I>friend</I>? or...<BR>...as a <I>wife</I>?<P>Men in general get confused quite easily...<BR>(first hand experience speaking here... LOL)<BR>I'd like to know if I wanted to come back to a "friendship"...<BR>...or a "marriage".<P>Something to think about...<BR>...maybe that might confuse you too... ?<P> <P>Jim

Thanks Kathi - <P>You're exactly right about expressing my feelings too often being a LB. I think I came really close if not stepped just over that line.<P>Jim - <P>The thing is, he only knows me as a wife in one way. To put it bluntly, a *****. BUT - you got me thinking: He sees these changes in me and has credited them to the new "friend" me. I don't think he's made the connection that the "wife" me will still deal and react in the same calm and understanding (I'm trying ) manner. So now the question is, how do I get him to realize I don't suffer from multiple personality disorder? How can I bring the friend and wife into one in his eyes?<P>He does NOT want me to behave as his wife. (Although I did tell him he still treats me like a wife in many ways, brings me dirty laundry, asks for something to eat, etc.) He wants my only contact with him to be easy, casual, no pressure. He thinks of that as "friend" so how can I get him to see that it's really "wife."<P>Much of this may due to the drastic difference in my way of dealing with things when he told me about the A. But I may have contributed to the misconception last night by telling him that I sometimes have to disconnect the "wife" to listen to him honestly and openly without getting hurt. <P>He doesn't want to hear me bring up the subject, when I asked if he'd like to hear my feelings about things the other day he said, "It won't change how I feel." See, he is very defensive and mistrustful of me still. I would have (two months ago) been trying to talk him into staying. But this time I just wanted complete understanding between us.<P>So, I have obviously been creating this dual role of wife/friend even within myself. How can I merge??<P>------------------<BR>

<BR>{{{Cali}}}<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR>[B]His friends don't condone the actions he's made and wouldn't be comfortable with it. When he went to Best Friends house to pick up musical equipment he even invited him (who won't come) but he wouldn't have done that if he was going to have BF's W there.>><P>Is this guy still his "best friend"? Jeez, how charming is your husband that you and his best friend haven't run him out of town on a rail?<P>Cali, I don't know how to advise you. You have so much more patience than me. But I think you need to go with Plan B -- cut off contact until he separates himself TOTALLY from the OW. If that means quitting the job they share, so be it. His actions need to have some consequences in your relationship, or there is no reason for him to stop them. I suspect he is getting some sick solace from your continued support -- it lets him think that he did nothing wrong...like "see! my W isn't really angry." That could also explain the comment to the OW about you not being mad at him but being mad at her.<P>If you do want him back, this doesn't mean that you don't continue the principles of Plan A in behavior -- make sure he leaves with a fond memory of your relationship. But some separation may actually help your Plan A -- you may be better off not having him around while you get over your anger at his bringing the OW into your home. I would be setting my alarm clock early so I could lovebust all day over that one! <P>Anyway, I think that until that commitment to break off contact with the OW is made to your satisfaction, maybe with the other parties involved and aware for compliance reasons, then you are just setting yourself up for a death by a thousand knives while you hear little pieces of news about them being together and he continues lying to you.<P>I think NSR is right about stopping the talk about being a friend and not a wife. You may feel out of love or out of the marriage at a given time -- there is no reason to share that at a low point. Your his wife, you love him, you want him back, but only if he cuts it off TOTALLY with the OW AND...AND commits to rebuilding the marriage.<P>Again, you astound me with your strength, and I'm sure you are astounding him too.<P>I also agree with NSR that you should give him a nice anniversary card with a positive sentiment....but don't build the occasion into something that sets you up for a disappointment.<P>Hang in there, take your meds, love your son! <P>Mike <P> <BR>

Cali...<P>How about a little "passion" building...<P>Friends can be passionate...<BR>...but rarely(I hope) in the same ways as a spouse... <P>How about a few books to consider for ideas?...<OL TYPE=1><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785273662" TARGET=_blank><B>A Celebration of Sex</B></A> by Dr. Douglas E. Rosenau <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440207533" TARGET=_blank><B>Light His Fire </B>: How to Keep Your Man Passionately and Hopelessly in Love</A> by Ellen Kreidman <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805058265" TARGET=_blank><B>Passionate Marriage :</B> Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships</A> by David Schnarch <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800757092" TARGET=_blank><B>Sex Begins in the Kitchen :</B> Because Love Is an All-Day Affair</A> by Kevin Leman <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310214149" TARGET=_blank><B>What Husbands Wish Their Wives Knew About Men</B></A> by Patrick M. Morley <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0842378960" TARGET=_blank><B>What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women</B></A> by James C. Dobson <BR></OL><P>Or maybe some sites to look at...<BR><A HREF="http://www.lovingyou.com/romance101/ideas.shtml" TARGET=_blank>Loving you</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.lightyourfire.com/" TARGET=_blank>Light Your Fire</A><P> <P>Jim

OK, guys, the thing is - he just doesn't want me that way. He is too "in love" with OW and hurt by her that he isn't considering his feelings for me at all. He basically said that to me. He is confused. I believe when the smoke clears, he will examine his feelings for me and realize they aren'd nonexistant as he claims the entire 5 year marriage has been.<P>The other thing is, he did quit his job and is moving to another city on Sunday. This will seperate him from OW, unless they continue by phone, which I'm sure he will as he's called or seen her every day since he told me last Thursday about A.<P>The thing is, how can I apply these principles, passion or even plan B if he isn't interested in saving the marriage or even rebuilding a new one.<P>The only way I can get him to communicate is if I play along like the marriage is over. He still maintains that it's been over for a long time and he tried to tell me the entire time we were married. He truly has convinced himself that the A was an afterthought to already ending the relationship. <P>Now, you and I know that's a crock! But he is in denial. He needs to come to that realization on his own. So I think this move he is making is positive, away from me, away from her, away from his friends.<P>Speaking of friends, no Best Friend does not want to continue relationship with H. He was just being civil while there to pick up equip.<P>So, if he won't allow passion, what else?<P>I asked him last night (we were sitting on couch together) if it would bother him if I just laid with him for a few minutes. He asked why and I told him I was feeling sad. He said, "I just don't want you to get the wrong impression." I told him he had made his feelings perfectly clear. So I laid there a few minutes and he even put his arm around me for about 2 minutes. Read me funny things out of the paper. Then got up and left.<P>So how do you approach the unapproachable?<P>------------------<BR>

You approach the unapproachable just as you are doing...you cannot ask for commitment from him right now, or even an acknowldegement that the marriage is not over.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>OK, guys, the thing is - he just doesn't want me that way. He is too "in love" with OW and hurt by her that he isn't considering his feelings for me at all. He basically said that to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I basically told my H I understood his feelings (ie, not in-love, felt marriage had been over for a long time), and still wanted to support him...listen to him, hold him, be there for him. <P>Plan A has nothing to do with whether or not he wants you as his wife. If all he wants is a friend, that's all you can be (and that's all I was for weeks, tho I made it clear that I loved him and wanted to be more than a friend anytime he felt differently). <P>"Friend" is not where you want to end up, but it can be a good starting place for now...<P><BR>

<BR>{{{{Cali}}}}<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>The thing is, how can I apply these principles, passion or even plan B if he isn't interested in saving the marriage or even rebuilding a new one.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, obviously, your options are limited to your behavior. His behavior has been all over the map. Psychologically, to admit to the existence of your marriage and his feelings for you right now forces him to confront the enormity of his betrayal. So, instead, he says "well, the marriage is over, was over, I didn't cheat." Make sense? It is a defense mechanism.<P>Now, if you are interested in reconciling, you have to remove the lovebusting and guilt associated with the EA. How? I couldn't, but you are obviously some sort of emotional superhero, so maybe you will be able to, eventually. Perhaps if you (gird your loins for this) actually apologized to HIM for your previous behavior that may have led to the EA.<P>Just an idea. I can barely stand to reread it myself.<P>QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>The other thing is, he did quit his job and is moving to another city on Sunday. .</B>[/QUOTE]<P>This is his choice, and you can't change it, and probably shouldn't. But look at the positives. He will be physically removed from the OW. He will be removed from the comfort of his home and family and son. He will be forced to confront the logistical and financial realities of life on his own (have you spoken to him and/or an attorney about a separation agreement and child support? I wouldn't make the financial situation any easier than you have to. Plan A him to death, but when it comes to the financial security of your son, be a steely-eyed lioness).<P>QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>I believe when the smoke clears, he will examine his feelings for me and realize they aren'd nonexistant as he claims the entire 5 year marriage has been.</B>[/QUOTE]<P>If that is what you want, I hope so too. <BR>

Kathi -<P>You give me hope. I was over at Plan A/B reading Just_me's post. One reply I took to heart from Nabliqad sp??. It basically said the same thing about making it a safe haven and you the comfortable person to come home to.<P>I know I went backward last night. He had told me the night before he would tell me if he saw her. He did tell me the next morning. Well, he didn't say much about where he'd been yesterday so I asked if he saw her. This put him on the defense. After I got the truth out of him he said I was "teaching him what telling the truth does - it gets me in trouble." Now I'm afraid he'll stop being totally honest with me. I'm afraid I backed him off a little.<P>Need to spend tonight making it cheerful and happy. Maybe I'll pick up dinner and a movie or something nice to help him relax.<P>Thanks Kathi - I take strength from your experiences.<BR>

Dinner and a movie sounds good...anyway you two can have pleasant time together is good.<P>Don't beat yourself up about not being 100% perfect in your responses to him...it's not like any of us are given a roadmap for this!!! You sound like you are doing great.<P>

Mike -<P>You ALWAYS make me laugh. I mean REALLY - every post. <P>Well, get ready for this: I DID APOLOGIZE TO HIM. The day he told me about A I told him I understood how it happened and that after years of degradation and lack of respect any consideration or understanding from her must have looked like a life line to him and he just reached out and grabbed it. He agreed. We spent the entire day together that day and after he called Best Friend and told him the truth, we talked about it. After he called OW and told her to fess up EVERYTHING to her H or he was going to, we talked more. I told him it would be nice to have an explanation from OW but that it probably wouldn't do any good. He said, "I'm the only explanantion you need, I told her I wasn't happy in my marriage." I told him sometimes women see this as an open door - and sometimes it opens a door on both ends. It was natural, human and he couldn't kill himself over it. I told him this will all pass. He said, "Yeah, like a stone."<P>So Mike, see how since I was so strong and understanding on D-Day, that I feel like such a failure for the questioning and second-guessing now? Oh, well. If at first you don't succeed.....<P>You are right about him moving away. I think it will be just what he needs. Plus, since he won't have a vehicle, I get to take our son to him for visits. (Good way to keep him thinking about me in a positive light and keep on track with Plan A.)<P>Thanks for all your input, Mike. It has helped get me more positive more than you know!<P><BR>Kathi -<P>Yeah, I think I'll try it. One more thing for you and Mike. <P>About the letters, poems (sort of) and lists of all the positive things in our marriage, lists of all our common interests, and which ones I've neglected over the years, etc.<P>These were the things he said he wanted me to "read to him" when I offered to let him take them. He mentioned yesterday (at my asking) that we should do it tonight. I'm prone to agree with Mike, NOT to share them with him just yet. Maybe let him get his head clear for a week or two first. If he still has strong feelings for OW, these things might just not get through to him anyway. Shouldn't I wait until he starts to evaluate his feelings for ME? Maybe on a weekend visit with his son, I can arrange for a heart to heart?<P>What do you think?

My thought is that he probably wants to hear them to be reassured that you love him. I think it took a lot of reassurance on my part for my H to really believe that I did love him, and was going to keep on loving him. Only after he was really certain of that did he seem to feel safe letting his guard down a bit.<P>So, if it were me and he asked, I'd do it. How can reassuring him that you love him and reminding him of the good things hurt? But, it is your call.<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>You ALWAYS make me laugh.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Last time I heard that I was proposing to my wife.<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali:<BR>[B]About the letters, poems (sort of) and lists of all the positive things in our marriage, lists of all our common interests, and which ones I've neglected over the years, etc.These were the things he said he wanted me to "read to him" when I offered to let him take them. He mentioned yesterday (at my asking) that we should do it tonight.>><P>Well this is a tough one. On the one hand it may be an opportunity for a breakthrough and some more and better communcation. On the other hand, I think maybe he needs to come 2% of the way toward you before getting yet another giant hypodermic needle of your love for his ego.<P>Maybe you can split the baby and read him some of the lists and less emotional stuff. Then tell him that there is other stuff that you have put away to share with him when he is interested in talking about reconciliation and cutting it off with the OW.<P>Of course, by now it is already that night and I guess you have made up your mind already, right? <P><BR>

UPDATE:<P>Last night went GREAT! Kathi, I didn't do the dinner and movie thing cause I knew he had finals this week.<P>I was really depressed all day, went to OBGYN for pap culture and blood tests in case of disease from OW. Won't know for sure til tomorrow but she says not to be worried, she thinks I'm fine. So, all in all had a bad day. Kept thinking of something my dad said, that if he loved her, the sex would be better with her. See, I asked H why he came back home and had sex with me TWICE if he was sleeping with her all that time. He said (I know this is corny) "Your the best" I shrugged him off and he still muttered, "It's the truth." Now he told me once before when he cheated before we were married that sex was better with me b/c he was in love with me. Could I be reading too much into this or is that why he had sex with me twice during this short-lived 3 week affair? <P>Anyway, all upset about thinking of the two of them together, was he saying beautiful things to her, did he kiss her all over, was it making love or just sex. So I prayed for strenght all the way home and somehow found it in myself to be NICE to him. Told him I was going to SIL's to stress out for a few. He asked, "Why can't you stress out here?" I told him he was in the middle of exams and I didn't want to bother him. Kept prodding with why I had a bad day. I told him not to worry, picked him up some dinner and sat with him and our son while we ate. Then helped him with homework all night. We had a BLAST! Really got into analyzing the NIN video Happiness in Slavery (for his paper) and were both looking each other straight in the eye while stating our own interpretations. Which basically related to our own visions of our marriage. Very revealing in a non-threatening sort of way. We joked a lot and I felt so good that we got along. I got the indication he wanted sex (so did I) but neither of us acted on it. When I woke him up this morning, I laid with him for a minute and he joked around (grabbed me) then said "Get off me!" He was late otherwise I think we would have had sex.<P>Is this wrong? Everyone tells me not to - but I WANT TO. He IS my husband still, and that has been an avenue whereby we can always communicate undaunted.<P>I did fess up and tell him I was coming home early. Offered to get home in time so he didn't have to take our son to his Mom's. He said no, he'd take him. This might give us a chance to be together relaxed and uninhibited at this party he is having Saturday night. I hope I hope I hope. Other than the fact that I'm dying for sex, I think it would impress upon him one final complete connection between us. Am I making sense?<P>So, progress, definitely. Good impression for sure. Plan A in full effect. Thanks to all of you and to God for giving me the strenght to forgive and continue to uphold my vows by example.<P>Thanks all!<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR>

Mike - <P>Decided against reading him the stuff unless he brought it up. What with term paper and all I figure it's best to wait till he's been gone a week or two and had a chance to miss me so he'll appreciate it more.<P>What do ya think?<P>------------------<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cali:<BR><B>Decided against reading him the stuff unless he brought it up. What do ya think?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>argghh...how to advise you? every time I give you the Mr. Hyde advice he turns into Dr. Jekyll. <P>If you go by Dr. Harley, you should get a commitment that he will cut off all communication with the OW before you start reconciling, i.e.: sex. I don't know how the experience could be anything but brutally bittersweet without that. <BR> <BR>Conversely, he may need wooing to return to you.<P>Damn, Cali, I feel like a field mouse advising Yoda. You are doing so much better than I would have already. I'd have land mined the lawn and be suing his distant relatives. <P>Just stay all shiny and don't lovebust, I guess. If he wants to make love, I'm sure you will want to, and I guess you should, rather than reject him. <BR> <BR>I wish my wife cared 5% about our marriage as much as you do about yours.<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 06, 2000).]

If you want to have sex with him, do so. It is part of Plan A...meeting each other's ENs...as long as you both enthusiastically agree. If OP is still involved tho, be careful re: disease.<P>Sex is a great way to care for each other and to communicate nonverbally, as long as you both want to.<P>As for the letters & stuff, I'd read them if he asks, but not bring it up...just as you are.<P>Glad things are going well!!!<P>Kathi

Cali,<P>Been out of town for a week and just getting caught up. How are you doing? It sounds from this latest post that you are making progress. You seem to gotten a pretty good grip on this Plan A thing. <P>I mentioned this to Maggie, but thought you might find a book I came across of some use. I was wondering around a bookstore one night while traveling and saw a book title that made me chuckle. It is called "Men made easy" by Ho. It is definetly written for women, however she does seem to have a pretty good grasp of men on a very elemental level.<P>You might just find it of interest to you. It is easy to read, I read it in little over an hour.<P>Hang in there and keep posting.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

You seem to be a very caring and forgiving person and that is good and healthy. Always remember, there is nothing wrong with tears. Married for 12 years, H had an affair produced a little one, she is six now and still having a difficult time dealing with it. Though, I've been the person taking care of the little one(the majority of her life), because the mother lefted her on our door steps because my H decided he wants to be with his family(and me accepting it), so I took her in and raised her as my own(she calls me mommy and calls her mother by her name)go figure.....<P>Even though I love her very, very much, it just constantly reminds me of the past, is that normal???? Lots of prayers help me through. I have a lot to tell, but trying to keep it short. All the stories I've read helps a great deal and gives me hope.<P>I am so glad that I have God, it still hurts but I am still trying to move forward.<P>Lots of prayers, hope and dreams,<BR>kids...<P><P>------------------<BR>

Calli,<BR>I also admire your strength - wish I could do as well with Plan A. Mike also makes me laugh - he and JL have given me such good insight.<BR>My H will not have sex with me either and it is killing me - he says he has had no contact with OW and I think that is the case. Yet, the no sex thing is confusing the heck out of me. My H will not discuss anything with me which is making this very hard...<BR>God bless - Annc

Annc - <P>I'm in full Plan A now. Update over on that forum. I suggest you read the posts to me from NSR. He references articles and areas on the site that have greatly helped me.<P>Good luck to you as well - I hope you don't find out otherwise about contact with OW. However, read up - then you will be able to handle anything - even better than you think you can.<P>Cali