Annc, I would have to strongly advise against contacting the OW since I have already made that mistake. I believe that among all the mistakes I have made, that has been the biggest mistake I have made since I learned about everything. I just couldn't stand it anymore and I thought it would make me feel better to contact her. It didn't. I sent one e-mail and then after I had calmed down some and realized what an awful thing I had done in e-mailing her in the first place, I sent another one apologizing about the first one.<P>Well, just like you predicted, she forwarded it to H and told him that she didn't know what to do because she didn't want to hurt me. he told her to dowhat she wanted, she couldn't hurt me anymore than he already has. Did she forward both e-mails to him? No, just the first one where I babled about how could she do the same thing to me that was done to her. Now I look like a major idiot and basketcase and like I am trying to sabotage their relationship. Plus, I promoted contact between them. At least H was more honest than I was. I never told him I had sent it because I felt so awful. He had the goodness to tell me he received the e-mail from her. Ugh. What a mess that was. That was what prompted the breakdown last night.<P>Yes, I really messed that one up. Now I will have to hear about how bad I messed up from the counselor. Ugh. I just don't see how things are going to get better when I can't keep from doing stupid things. I'm starting to really hate myself.

Dear L,<BR>The last thing you need right now is to get down on yourself - hey, noone ever gave us a manual on how to act if our H had an affair!!!Do not beat yourself up over this!!!<BR> I am on a rollercoaster right now, too, and we have good reason - I begin to hate him at times for doing this to me and our family - they did it, NOT us. Yes, as much as I would like to contact OW, I figured she would probably turn it to her advantage - how can you trust someone like that, especially when she brings it to my attention and my children's!!!???? And, supposedly, I think she was out "looking" for men - and she is married with two children also. Before we do anything, let's run our ideas on this sight because it may keep us from doing something we regret. I just got a reply to my email from Dr. Harley - he suspects my H is probably still in contact with OW. H says not, and I haven't seen evidence except for sex issue...and his sec. says she has not called work in a few weeks...who knows, there are always ways around all that...How do you ever know for sure? Thanks for your tip about contacting OW - I thought it was probably not a good idea...<BR>Talk to you soon - A

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Annc:<BR>[B]The friends are out-of-town, so he may never see them, and some are very old friends of mine that are like sisters.>>>><P>Well, that is good. Does he know they know?<P><<<<He did speak to our oldest daughter before I left to go out of town last week ->>>><P>How did she find out about the A?<P><<<<I do not trust someone who called and brought it into my house - she is also married with two children!!! So, she is not really "available.">>>>><P>Interesting. So she has something to hide too. Well, I wouldn't adise this, but it seems a common tactic to contact the other woman and threaten to bring her husband into the info loop if there is any further contact. <P>I wouldn't do it, but it is sort of empowering to know you have a missile in the silo. <P><<<Patience? No nagging? Hang in and see if time helps?>>>><P>Yes. Yes. Yes.<BR> <BR><<<<Mike, do you not think reading SAA is a good idea - I find it pretty positive, and with wonderful suggestions as to how to start recovery...>>>><P>Oh, I think it is a great idea, but unless you want to prop his eyes open like A Clockwork Orange, it doesn't appear like it is going to happen. And I wouldn't break your Plan A over it, since he seems otherwise repentant.<P>I agree with Harley on one thing -- you are entitled to more proof that the affair is over than has been forthcoming. And his word is not enough.<P>

AnnC,<P>Tried to respond several times...<BR>...kids make posting/replying difficult!<BR>...but I love them... whewwwww....<P>OK...<P>My thoughts about you and your H...<P>You still love your H very much...<BR>...there is no apparent affair in progress...<BR>...your H even told your d so...<P>...stay in Plan A...<BR>...if you Plan A him to death...<BR>......there will be results!!!<P>Even if there was an affair going on...<BR>...I'd recommend a Plan A for a while.<P>A good Plan A (typical is 6 months) is necessary before moving into any kind of Plan A...<P>You need to apply <B>PTC</B>...<BR><B>P</B>atience...<BR><B>T</B>ime...<BR><B>P</B>onsistency...<P>You can do it...<BR>...because you are a <B>PTC</B>...<BR><B>P</B>retty...<BR><B>T</B>ough...<BR><B>P</B>ookie...<P>You'll know when your love for him dips too low...<BR>...right now... it's just impatience...<BR>...discovery was just 5 weeks ago...<BR>...give it more time!<P> <P>Jim

Dear Mike, <BR>My H does not know that my friends know anything...<BR>As to my daughters knowing - OW was calling our house asking for him then hanging up on us. They were suspicious long before I was - articles I have read say the children pick up on it long before BS which I can vouch for...he was "not here" for 3-4 months;we all felt that he had pulled away from us - moved us to a new city, far from good friends, then "leaves" us! Needless to say this has been an extremely tough move..<BR>What proof can I ask for that A is over? Will I be able to trust the "proof"?<BR>Talk to you soon, A

Dear Jim,<BR>So glad to hear from you - you are so right, I love my H very much and I guess my friends don't understand how I can put up with this, but I love him and want it to work out. Yes, I am very impatient - especially when there is no physical intimacy - then, I start imagining and reading things into it. So, for my sake, I guess I should stick out Plan A a longer period of time - and hopefully, we will either be reconciled or I will be ready to move on.<BR>Don't know how to handle the sex issue - talk about feeling like I am walking on eggshells!!!! Wish he would open up more - how do you meet EN when spouse won't let you know what they are???<BR>Please keep your encouraging words coming and pray...<BR>Sincerely, A

AnnC...<P>I once posted to <B>Lora</B> once on the question of "...how do you meet EN when spouse won't let you know what they are???..."<P>Write down in your personal calendar/journal the 4 or 5 or 6 most important EN.... that you think he has...<P>The cycle through them... day by day picking the next in your list.<P>Then everyday... think of at least one action that will help to fulfill the EN. If you can think of 2 OK... but at least one.<P>Don't get discouraged if there is no positive response...<BR>...be Patient...<BR>...you're sowing seeds...<BR>...and fruit is slow to come!<P>Hang in there... <P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>What proof can I ask for that A is over? Will I be able to trust the "proof"?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, interestingly, Harley says that you really should never completely trust your mate. Says he doesn't trust his wife. In your case, I think a few things would be useful:<P>1. A letter from your H to the OW that ends the affair, shares his shame at the hurt he inflicted on his family, and requests a total break with absolutely no future contact for the rest of their lives. This letter should be read and approved by you prior to sending.<P>2. An open door approach to his life which includes accounting for his time each day and your full access to his email, phone records, and finances.<P>He should understand that you will need this reassurance to begin to rebuild your trust. According to Harley, if he balks at this....it is a real sign of a possible continuing EA.<P>By the way, I came across a few letters about a lack of sex drive following the breakup of an A. It seems that maybe the most likely scenario is that your H is simply going through withdrawal from his lover. This link contains those letters and Harley's replies, as well, as some of the stuff up above on the letter to the OW: <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html</A> <P>Hang in there!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 07, 2000).]

Dear Jim and Mike,<BR>Thank you for your encouragement. I am trying so hard to be patient, BUT it is so difficult - especially when my EN are not being met. Also, we got a phone call at 5 this morning - a hang up. I suspect probably from OW!!! H gets upset with me because I get upset about the phone call - I am tired of them - and, who else would call at 5 in the morning???? I made the comment that to<BR>call at that hour probably means she wants to hear his voice - he said, Stop it!!! OK -as to patience - the agreements we made that we were to sign included Harley's suggestions about open communication and honesty, ie, access to email accounts, etc.; blood test; read SAA, etc. How do I get him to do any of these when he refuses to discuss? - as I said when I tried to discuss the other night, he said he is on overload, doesn't want to discuss, tired of the roller coaster, etc. I wanted him to read SAA so he will see about writing the letter and the honesty policy to rebuild trust. He said Mon. that he would read it..., he said last week he would read while I was out of town-<BR>he did not; he also agreed to get a blood test last week - he didn't, he said he would get it this week and has not - So, I am frustrated and my patience is wearing thin, especially when I think he is now using the blood test as his excuse to avoid physical intimacy with me... and the article you referred me to was very good, Mike, - thanks!!! So, am I to keep my mouth shut, not ask him to follow through on anything and just stay in limbo? -guess that is plan A. I have tried to explain that he needs to rebuild trust...and he comes back with the "maybe there has been too much damage,etc" jargon. It is very difficult going without phys. intimacy for me - I have never a W who has headaches - yet, guess, I just hang in there????? <BR>Talk soon....Thanks! A

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>I made the comment that to<BR>call at that hour probably means she wants to hear his voice - he said, Stop it!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was a major LB. He is probably trying to see a future where every random occurrence doesn't bring out a reminder of his affair. This incident probably did not give him hope.<P>Get caller ID or that return call option, *69 it is in my area. Or change your phone number to an unlisted one. If you then find that it is indeed the OW that is calling and hanging up, that becomes a legal issue of harassment. Don't tell your H that you are getting caller ID for this reason, just do it.<P>As far as the rest of it....I don't know. Perhaps if that article I referred you to is right and he is working through withdrawal from the OW, then his interest in blood tests and reading SAA and rebuilding your trust and marriage may return when his sex drive does. But the LBs and nagging probably just prolong the nostalgia over the memory of the hassle free OW relationship.<P>So keep on Plan Aing. Make sense? <P> <P>

I totally empathize with your situation. I am sure that my H doesn't want every little thing to remind him of the A either. I am really going to try and do better on this. For me, it happened. It is in the past. Now I want to look to the future. I look at the A as an event that happened so we can become stronger people. You know the old adage, "That which doesn't kill us only makes us stronger." Since we are still alive, we must be getting stronger. A lot stronger!<P>Keep trying. I'll keep trying with you. H and I agreed to six months. After six months if we do not feel that *any* progress has been made we will look into a divorce. I told him "any" progress could be simply that his feelings change from trying to make the marriage work because he morally feels he should, to trying to make the marriage work because he wants it to. I figure if we do a good job at meeting each others needs, six months should reflect some progress in a positive direction. <P>May God bless us all and help us find peace in our struggles.

Hey, Mike,<BR>Yes, it was a LB and I regret it, and what you say makes a lot of sense. We do have caller id - she was blocking her calls by pressing *67 and it showed up as private name, private number. So, I started tracing and got police involved to retrieve numbers from phone company. Yet, now they are being made from either a cell phone or something that cannot be traced. I suggested unlisted number to H this a.m. and he said, no, that everyone has our # (- but it may have to come to that.) <BR>I will try my best to not LB and nag. I left a message on his voice mail earlier - told him I love him and am thinking of him. Told him I will try not to nag anymore about reading or blood test, but for him to understand that it would make me feel better if he would follow through on agreements; that I feel his postponing blood test is his way of avoiding intimacy with me - and for him to understand how hard it is on me, that it makes me imagine all sorts of reasons why he doesn't want it, and that because he won't talk to me about it that my mind will go wild. I said that I don't understand and that he is not helping me understand - and it is a need of mine that is not being met nor has been met in a while. It hurts and I miss him, yet I will try to avoid nagging.<P>Hope it's not another LB..... A

hey, Lapeine,<BR>You sound so much stronger and better today - that is good, and it sounds like a good plan. Now, I need to do the same - try to avoid the A and look to the future! Guess I am on a down swing today...but your strength is inspiring and we will keep supporting and praying for one another.<BR>God bless you, too!!<BR>Thanks - A

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Annc:<BR>[B]We do have caller id - she was blocking her calls by pressing *67 and it showed up as private name, private number.>>><P>Well, maybe you have one more chess move left. I think in some districts you can block calls that block caller ID. Look into that.<P>How often is this happening, by the way?<P>However, consider this. If it is the OW, why would she call at 5 am? It isn't to talk to him. <P>I think it is one of two reasons. One, the OW is trying to instigate trouble in your household. If that is her motivation, you are playing into it. <P>The other possible reason is that she is home crying her eyes out in withdrawal fromyour H and can't help herself. Ann, THIS IS A GOOD SIGN FOR YOU. If she was in contact with your H secretly, she wouldn't be doing this, right? <BR> <BR><<<<I said that I don't understand and that he is not helping me understand - and it is a need of mine that is not being met nor has been met in a while.>>>><P>Plan A isn't about your needs, unfortunately, and when you interject them, it is a LB. You read that article, right? Doesn't it sound like your H is in withdrawal from the OW? Take him at his word, he says he is committed to the marriage and that the sex will happen. You want it to be a special night, not something that he breaks off in the middle because he isn't quite emotionally ready. <P>Try to go two weeks without pressuring about sex. I did, and it totally changed my situation. <P>

Dear Mike,<BR>Thank you for your help and encouragement!!! I blew it last night - brought up sex and how I am feeling - major LB. I am not doing very well - read my other topic...<BR>Can't believe how hard this is...it is so hard wondering if your WS even likes you anymore...and, I feel as if I am the one trying the hardest...<BR>Talk soon, I hope...A