<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>He is frustrating me and making me feel awful, so that is why this is so hard. It's the "unfairness" of it all!!! A</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, that is the way this game plays out. Here is some reading that may make you feel like you have company: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html</A> <P>Ann, what I sense is that you have a tremendous need to talk through these issues, and, unfortunately, turning to your H right now with some of that need is lovebusting. I would strongly recommend some more solo counseling so you have an outlet to vent. <P>One other thought...at some point, and when that point is I have no idea, you are entitled to the answers you seek about the details of the A, as painful as they may be.. My instincts would be that this would have to wait until he approaches you about reconciliation, after his period of withdrawal is over with the OW. <P>

<BR>I think in your situation, I might try to negotiate a "peace" while his healing process is under way.<P>Maybe you put your 5 promises on the table for 30 days....and see if he is willing to ease your hurt with a few concessions....maybe some answers about the A and some initial counseling.<P>I remember the Harley's recommended an ultimatum, right? That was you? Read my book or I go to Plan B? Maybe there is something to that. I see that you are really struggling with a good Plan A in light of his non-cooperation....maybe it is better to have a period apart than to continue to LB. <P>

AnnC,<P>I have some advice for you. First, realize that every time your H is irratated it is not about you. He is probably very angry at himself, he does have a job and if it entails doing things such as firing people it can be stressful, finally life can be irratating. <P>So while you are focused on recovering your marriage he is dealing with other things. Mostly he is dealing with himself. I suspect he is not very proud of himself.<P>Next, suggestion is to realize that in Plan A you need to work on the things in the marriage that you can control: yourself. You are working on trying to change and improve him: read this book, take this test, talk with me so I can fix you. Do you get my drift? He is responsible for himself and he will and must change. But only he can do it.<P>Mike made a great point. If marriage means I get to get lectured and hounded, do I want it? <P>Now, let us go to the sex issue. In addition to what I mentioned earlier, consider the possibility that he doesn't know if he has an STD. He hasn't been tested. However, since he hasn't been tested he may be really concerned about infecting you. <P>You would think logically that the solution is to get tested immediately. So would I, but it means that he faces more humiliation and I suspect he has had a healthy does of it already. So if he doesn't want to infect you and he isn't sure that he is clean, what does he do? No sex. <P>Also it seems from reading here that when people are in withdrawl, they become detached from the OP and their spouse. This can lead to confusion about what to do. So they do nothing. <P>You also made a very telling remark. You said something to the affect that you felt that you are dating again. You are having to get H to love you again. You are right. Your H lost or buried his love for you to have the affair. He must develop it again. That is what Plan A is about. It is not about being a doormat, but it is showing that you can love him and that life can be good again.<P>As for him working on it. Just remember one thing. Men don't need to talk to work on problems. In fact, most men cease talking when they are working on problems. Now you have to ask yourself. Do you want your H to work on your marriage and his problems or do you want him to talk to you? Sounds like Clint Eastwood doesn't it. <P>But really, you do want him to fix his stuff first and foremost. This process may not entail conversation. However, if you want conversation, I came across a book for women and bought it because the title made me laugh. I am a male. It is entitled "Men made easy" and the author's name is Ho. It is really for women and some of the stuff as a male doesn't really do it for me. However, her take on men and why/how they view things is in my opinion very close to dead on.<P>If you can find it, get it and read it. It took me about an hour to read it. It may well change your perspective on your H and how he functions. The authors thesis is that if you understand men then you can control him and your life. Don't know about that, but with a different perspective you may gain more patience. <P>Annc, this all takes time and patience. Plan A is for you to work on your issues, while letting the things that take time, happen. It seems your H is working on things. <P>By the way, most of the faxes do send a "beep" when trying to establish connection so your calls may be that or the former employee. Don't worry about it, if your H has restarted the affair other things will show up.<P>Hang in there and have patience. All of his actions are not about you. But I realize the tendency is to think they are.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I'm learning so much, don't have any better things to say than Mike or JL. But just to let you know, that I'm struggling with PlanA too, I tried so hard for a couple days not mentioning about the A or did any obvious LB (and I know it's HARD!), then it seems that my H thinks more about it himself, even he brought it up, started talking about it, sounds like he's focusing on our future, ex. where'd be the best city if we move and stuff. Just give it a try for a couple days, maybe a week, I bet you'll see the difference. <BR>Good luck

Thank you all for your good advice yesterday!!!<BR>Mike and JL, you helped tremendously - I appreciate your perspectives, especially since I was having such a bad day. JL, I plan to find the book you recommended today, and Mike, the article on "forgiveness" was great!! I did send H an email yesterday: told him I would leave him alone, but please understand that it is not helping the situation when there is only lipservice and no follow through. Referred to it as limbo, and that it is very difficult for me, and that it is NOT "moving forward." I also gently let my feelings be known about my bday, and I said that I would continue to try as long as I 'can.' - and so on. Well, there is a glimmer of hope - he called yesterday pm about the testing number - said he had tried it and it was always busy, so I gave some other ones and even offered to go with him(he said, no, he would handle it). Then, I printed out the first letter and reply in the forgiveness article that you recommended, Mike, left it on his dresser with a noted asking him to please read. When I got in bed last night, he said he had read the article, and I thanked him. The article addressed what needs to happen for forgetting and forgiveness to occur - I felt the info about compensation for the pain and making changes was good...so, maybe this is encouraging... I will try to avoid nagging and see how it goes for a few days or more...<BR>and keep praying. Yet, I can't tell you how much all of you are helping!! Thank you!!!<BR>Sincerely, A

Mike C2 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>The article addressed what needs to happen for forgetting and forgiveness to occur - I felt the info about compensation for the pain and making changes was good...so, maybe this is encouraging...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I'm discouraged that is what you considered the highlight of that article. That part addresses HIS behavior -- he may not be ready to deal with your needs or any compensation for awhile yet. He is in withdrawal from the A. The only way to speed and safeguard that process is to focus on YOUR behavior -- lovebank deposits, meeting the ENs he will let you meet, and, crucial, avoiding lovebusting. <P>Here is an excerpt: <P>"""The way to affair-proof a marriage is for couples to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So whenever one spouse has an affair, the other should try to learn to meet the unmet needs that led to the affair. <BR>That's a tough sell to someone who has just learned about their spouse's unfaithfulness. I'd sooner kill him than meet his needs, is the most common reaction."""<P><<<I also gently let my feelings be known about my bday, >>>><P><sigh> Major lovebust. No upside to that topic being introduced. Were you trying to make him feel guilty? He is drowning in it already. Throw him a rope not a cinder block.<BR>

Mike,<BR>OOPS!!! Guess I blew it...it is so hard to know sometimes...I am going to try now not to mention anything and see how it goes.<BR>Yes, I agree that I think phone call is a fax and even shared that with H last night. <BR>Talk later,<BR>A

Hang in there Annc,<P>One of the major LBs is trying to educate the spouse. You can educate yourself, but you must let him educate himself. Just remember silence on his part doesn't mean he is not working on this issue. <P>You must remember he had the affair for a reason, and that reason resides with you. It is not your fault that he had the affair, that is his problem 100%, but the marriage obviously needed to tuning up and you do get 50% of that job. It seems to you that you are doing all of the work, and to some extent you are, but his job will come later.<P>Let me illustrate. Say tomorrow he does everything you ask. He decides he is deeply in love with you and wants to spend the rest of his life loving you. <P>Perfect you say! Except for one thing, he is going to have to spend a long time regaining your trust. He is going to have to deal with your anger. He is going to have to deal with his guilt. He will have to deal with much more for a long time.<P>You see part of the marriage problems where his as well and he must fix those. Further, he must regain your respect. Right now you are in the repair mode. You need to be here, but as things turn better other issues come up and he will have to do the heavy lifting.<P>I am not saying that you get your turn for revenge, by making his life miserable. I am saying as he comes to realize what he has done, and the damage he has done, then he will have to deal with it. You won't have to tell him either. As his love for you grows he will know the pain he caused.<P>Annc, have some confidence, work on yourself for you do have things to work on. Don't worry about punishing him, if your marriage is restored he will punish himself for the rest of his life. In fact the hardest part of the restoring the marriage will be getting him over that part of things.<P>So don't try to educate. Try to make a better marriage and let him fall in love with you again. As he falls in love with you he will hurt very badly. As I believe Bernard Shaw said, "The best revenge is a life well lived". <P>I know you want this all to go away. I know you want him to fall in love with you. I know you want him to feel your pain. But all of this takes time. Beside he will never feel your pain, just as you will never feel his. <P>He isn't getting away with anything here, believe me. That is one of the most profound things I have learned by reading here. There is no free lunch, and the betrayer does pay without any help from the spouse.<P>So listen to what Mike just said, he needs a safety line not a brick.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>You and Mike always have such wisdom and perspective!<BR>...would it be a LB to ask him to fill out EN questionnaire so that I can know and start meeting his most important needs? Or, do I just, as you suggest, work on myself and the marriage and hope and wait til he is ready... ?<BR>God bless, A

Another day...made it through yesterday - that is how I am beginning to feel - "take one day at a time." - so hard to focus on anything right now. I look forward to my appt. with Dr. Harley this morning, because in spite of all the great inight everyone is giving me, I am just not sure I can continue in a relationship like this. I do not want my H to stay out of guilt or responsibility; I want honesty - I get no dialogue at all. I don't want "revenge" - I just want communication. I feel like this is a facade. And, most of the other WS's on this site have agreed to counseling - how can you survive without it or without some direction. My H does not want to do anything to really move forward...<BR>A

Ann, you must tell us how your session went. I find that my relationship with my H is much better on days when I don't discuss things. Maybe that is what you need for a month or so. Time for him to forget. My counselor also suggested that we write things down--not e-mails which are impulsive, but handwritten letters explaining our feelings. Then you can fold it up and wait awhile and think about whether or not you want to share just yet. Sometimes the key is just waiting.<P>My H sometimes reads my posts here. Here he can see what I am really feeling. It helps that our counselor suggested that we try to talk about other things. I like being a good student and I want a good report next time we visit. That may not be a good reason for working on Plan A, but right now, I feel whatever it takes is good.<P>My H shared something with me the other day that may be of interest to you. He too is not interested in sex. I asked if it was sex with me or anyone. He said he hasn't been interested in sex with anyone since the A. "Guilt is a powerful thing." He enjoys things once they get going, but he doesn't want to initiate anything. I asked if he minded if I did. I thought, hey, if he enjoys it and I enjoy it, why not? He said that it sometimes makes him feel guilty when I start things all the time because he remembers how it felt when he always had to start things (I was never in the mood. It was fine when things got started, but I never really said, let's have sex.) <P>Eventually, I am hoping that we reach a place where we can both feel free to start things whenever.<P>Good luck. I know its hard. It's hard for me to. My counselor told me that I have to accept that for whatever reason, my H is with me now and that's a start. I hope some of this helps. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Lapeine,<BR>Thank you!!! Yet, my H will not even tell me why he won't have sex - keeps putting off being tested, which I feel he can now use an excuse to avoid me. I feel fair in wanting him to get tested, don't you? Is it unreasonable? He resisted the idea at first, but I insisted - especially in these days and times, and because I am suspicious OW may have been with others. I am still fighting the urge to email her and ask if she is in contact with H, but know it would be a disaster.... If my H would just follow through or talk to me...<BR>or go to counseling like your H - most WS's seem to agree to counseling - feel like my H is only one who refuses...<BR>Says I want to get too serious...<BR>A

AnnC,<P>Don't judge your H by what others have done. He may not want to go to counseling because he isn't certain he wants the marriage. This is very normal when in withdrawal. He may think that once he decides to commit to you, that counseling is not necessary. He may believe he understands why he did what he did and will deal with it himself. <P>Men don't really like to be told what to do. For that matter neither do women, but the difference is that women do like to talk about their problems and issues. Men typically don't. <P>What do you think he feels counseling will be like? Let's see: talking about feelings, Yuch! ; talking about what a low life he is. Lots of fun. ; talking about how much he has hurt you. Knows that and can't face it. ; and finally TALKING about himself, Surely you jest? .<P>Get the picture. <P>As for the testing don't insist, you know it is right and he knows it is right. Both of you know it is important. However, right now pushing him anywhere won't solve your major problem. You major problem is not SEX, it LOVE. He needs to decide to make the marriage work and that he loves you. The sex will follow.<P>I keep saying this, just because he isn't talking doesn't mean he isn't working on himself. Be a place of comfort without pressure to do things. You can talk about things, but let him take the lead. If he is anything like me and other men I know, he has looked at the situation and decided that while you may need to change things, first and foremost he must get his act together. <P>Until he does, there is no need for him to "work on the marriage" in the sense that you are thinking. He is working on his own issues, if he gets straightened out, he can work on the marriage as you wish. Remember we also compartmentalize things pretty well. <P>Do read that book I recommended. I have recommended it to several women. It is a female empowerment book, about how to handle men. I know I am going to get thrown out of the fraternity , but it does explain men pretty well. You seem to need this insight.<P>Annc, have patience. This situation took awhile to develop and it will take awhile to sort out. <P>Let us know how your counseling session went with Harley today. Hang in there you are doing well. Your H will come around.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

AnnC, I absolutly agree with JL. Did I ever say that my H WANTED to go to conseling. No, but when we first got married, we agreed that if one person felt the marriage was in trouble and wanted to go to counseling, the other would go. My H is following through on that commitment because commitments are important to him. Yes, he broke the marriage commitment, but he has to pick himself up, dust himself off, recommit, and start over again. One mistake doesn't constitute failure forever. Of course, he can't see that right now since he is swimming in guilt, but I keep hoping that he will rise to the surface one day.<P>He hates counseling. We are really only going for me. I get a lot out of it. My counselor tells me to be patient. I know, I am really bad about that. I must have prayed for patience one day and this is how God is teaching me. <P>I told you why my H feels the way he does because yours won't talk to you. I really did have to ask him. Its not like he just walked up and said, "Hey, guilt is so tough, it's making me not want to have sex." If that had happened, he probably would no longer worryabout the future because I would have died of a heart attack on the spot. <P>I actually felt we were making great strides the other morning when in response to one of my LBs, H asked, "What happens between the evening when things are going so well and the morning when you are like this?" That led to a 30 minute conversation about how much I hated living this lie. The worst thing was leaving and having to say, "Don't worry, when I get home, I'll be happy and we'll pretend like this morning never took place." And, guess what, that's what happened. Don't you love Plan A.<P>Hang in there. You can do it. <p>[This message has been edited by Lapeine (edited June 14, 2000).]

Dear JL and Lapeine,<BR>I thank you again - and, thank you for making me laugh - something I need right now!!! JL - you do make me laugh!!! I will go out and get the book you recommend, because obviously I need all the help I can get!!!<BR>Lapeine, I figured your H probably didn't walk up and say this is how I feel, - it is nice that he gives you some feedback - I get no dialogue, period - have no idea what thoughts are running through my H's mind because he is a totally locked door - deadbolts, alarms, you name it. He just wants to have "fun." What about that song, "girls just want to have fun"? - I want to have fun, too....are we having fun yet? Ha!!<BR>Well, Dr. Harley was great - he got me back in focus which y'all help me with also: he told me to stay focused - objective of Plan A is to show that I can make changes in marriage - make a pleasant, safe environment. I can't ask him to do anything - testing, counseling, sex, etc....he is in an "altered state" and not sure he wants this (although he says he does) - he is addicted. Similar things everyone on this site have been telling me - So, every day we just have to keep our focus - focus on ourselves. H may or may not change or come around - H is acting on emotion. I can't LB about my birthday or sex... Who ever said life is easy, huh? So, yes this is the most difficulty thing I have ever done...but hopefully with prayers, your help, and Dr. Harley's, I can do this.... I really had the urge to ask him to leave this morning - with your support and encouragement, I thank you for helping me to hang in!<BR>God bless all of you!! Annc

ps. L and JL- <BR>Yes, JL, I get the picture about counseling- you draw a great picture - thanks!!<BR>L, I have asked H why no sex - all I get is "I need to be tested." So, do I need a can opener or what to open him up - ha!!! <BR>A

Annc,<P>Go have "fun" with your H. Don't worry about working on the marriage. BECAUSE to him having "fun" is working on the marriage. I am guessing here but I suspect, that he strayed because he wasn't having "fun" with you. Now he needs to see if he can again. If he can, then I'll bet in a month or two you will get those discussions you want.<P>Men associate important things as having "fun", but the word can mean more than just frivolous behavior. Do you recall the comment "Are we having fun yet"? Usually uttered during a very difficult and stressful part of a job or meeting. The opposite of "fun" can mean a really miserable undertaking. If that is the case most everything else is "fun". <P>I know I am rambling abit, but do the "fun" things with H. It may be his way of reconnecting with you. It also may be his way to telling you that your life with him was missing an important element: relaxation, spontenaity (sp), and "fun". This "recreational need" may be important to him.<P>So think about this abit. If he is talking with you about having "fun", he is communicating with you and he is most definitely telling you something. Listen to him, he may not be saying what you want the way you want it, but he may be saying it the best way he can.<P>Just some ideas to think about. <P>I sounds like your discussion with Harley went well. From everything I have heard, as counselors they all are very good.<P>Hang in there AnnC.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<BR>As always your insight is great - we have been trying to do things together since Dday:I am taking golf lessons and have gone out to play with H several times - golf is his passion, and I am enjoying, too. Then, this past weekend - dinner Fri. night wasn't very pleasant for me because he was checking out the woman, and then Sat. night he made us leave the dinner/dance early because he wanted to go home - I wanted to stay and dance more because I love it and it was also my bday...oh well...<BR>So, I want to have fun, too....But guess I will try to hang in a while longer - I suspect, however, that he had contact with OW this am - first time I have felt this way in a 3-4 weeks - but he used the same abrupt tone when I spoke with him at work that he would use when he was seeing her and he has not called the rest of the day - usually, he calls 2 to 4 times/day....<BR>Do I ask if he had contact with her? Or, is that a major LB? - book says we have right to know, but I am confused if this will be a bad move on my part... You know when you just know....<BR>Thanks!!! A

AnnC,<P>I don't really know the answer, but I'll offer some ideas just see if any of them seem appealing to you.<P>It is apparently very common for the WS to withdraw when new contact is made even if it is accidental and means nothing. Guilt, a bit more of withdrawal, I don't know. But from what I have read here it is common.<P>First, do you really want to know if OW contacted him? If you really don't want to know then don't ask him, but you might keep your eyes open.<P>Second, being short may have to do with working. Just as I mentioned to you the other day, apparently his reluctance to have sex is because he hasn't been tested. This too may be that simple.<P>Third, I guess if it were me and I wanted to know, I would consider this approach.<BR>"Honey, you don't seem to be yourself lately. Kind of withdrawn and a little short, is it something I did? Probably he will respond, "No" . Did the OW contact you? You used to be this way when she was part of the picture.<P>Then I would leave it alone. Let him answer or not. It tells him you suspect, but it really doesn't require him to defend himself. It will also show him that you can handle this type of information. You want honesty, but if honesty is met with an emotional response he won't be honest. <P>So I would use this as an opportunity to show that you can handle honesty, by showing that while you would like the answer, the content of the answer is not going to put you over the edge. <P>Message sent: I can handle honesty and you being honest with me is what I want and can deal with in a reasonable manner.<P>Does this make sense?<P>Hope so. Do keep having the fun. It will help. You know I have often thought, that while women have much to teach men about communications, men can teach women something about having fun.<P>Anyway hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>and then Sat. night he made us leave the dinner/dance early because he wanted to go home - I wanted to stay and dance more because I love it and it was also my bday...oh well...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Birthday....dinner/dance...he took you dancing on your birthday!!?? I was under the impression that he threw you in a sewer and dumped refuse on you, like that girl in Schindler's List.<P>All right, that's it....if you mention your birthday ONE MORE TIME I'm going to HAVE AN AFFAIR. <BR>