Dear Mike and JL,<BR> Yes, JL - makes lots of sense - I did not ask him tonight - will relate night in a sec...<BR>Mike, the only reason I mentioned my bday AGAIN was in response to JL telling me to have fun - I was just using it as an example that I love to have fun!!! always have!!! The dinner/dance, by the way, was for H's golf tournament... He would not stay and continue to have fun after his partner left which sent me the message that he couldn't just have fun with me. I have always been the "party animal" of the two...just trying to send message that I have no prob with having fun... please don't have an affair...Ha!<BR>Tonight - our girls weren't home so we went to dinner - I followed everyone's advice and tried to be as nice as possible - during the course of dinner, H did reveal some things...<BR>I did mention that he was grumpy this am and asked how his day went - he said he was trying to get things done when I called and wanted to talk - AAAArrrrgggh, was his response(I still think he may have talked to OW, but I did not mention it). H said it was a rough day at work - I said, "I am sorry, hope day got better...." He then said he wished he could take a sabbatical for a year but not possible right now due to having to put our children through college. Said there are some goals he has not met and feeling pressure - that there is a window and it is closing soon - ie, he would like to play golf on senior tour. I told him I would support him and that I believe people should follow their dreams - I would support him in any way possible - sell house, downsize, etc, if this is what he wants. I told him that I do not want to feel like children and I are weights around his neck...I asked him if getting close to 50 is bothering him and he said yes - thought life would be "easier", etc - I agreed and shared that many of my friends and I have had similar discussions for years - they lied when they say "life begins at 40!" I told him we need to be there for each other and support one another, that I need to know how to be a better wife. I asked if he has seen that I am working on myself and trying to make changes - he said, yes - I have been attentive and supportive... Then, by time we got home, he had had enough talk for night - went to bed which is fine - at least I have a little more info than before. OK, guys, what do you think??? I told H that I want to support him and that I am glad we had this discussion because we need to talk about these things; I have similar issues and goals I have not met... <BR>Ok, we have made some progress, you think? So, I will continue in this mode - just not sure how long I can tolerate, but we shall see...<BR>God bless - A

AnnC,<P>Tolerate??? You just got what you wanted. He is talking to you about things that are very important to him. He is opening up and will continue to do so as time goes on.<P>Annc, you may not know this but if you want your H to talk to you, you must sit and listen to him. Apparently you did last night. How did this happen? Well, you didn't put him on the defensive, did you? You didn't overtly guide the conversation, did you? You allowed silence to occur (I know something that women hate ). He began to talk.<P>AnnC, he will begin to talk about you and your marriage. Have patience! If you want him to talk about himself and you, you need to let silence occur, you need to let him direct the conversation. You can ask questions, but then just listen for the answers, it may take even minutes for him to decide what he wants to say.<P>As for turning 50, well for me turning 50 occasioned perhaps one of the 3 worst years of my life. The company I had helped build downsized and with it went me and my research group. I had the "pleasure" of tell my friends (the people that had worked for me and depended on me that we were all on the street). I faced moving family and children in the middle of high school and the possibility of a new career.<P>AnnC, for any one working and certainly for men, turning 50 is quite a jolt. In this day and age experience and success are not nearly important as past times. Everyone is expendable and of course by now one knows that all of your dreams and goal WILL NOT be reached. Since men define themselves by their jobs many times, this is a rough period.<P>So does that excuse affairs and such? NO! But it does mean that your H has much on his mind. You will correctly point out that well if he has important things on his mind, why aren't I on the top? Excellent question, glad you asked. I cannot speak for your H, but I can tell you when I went through this, my wife and family were on my mind. However, it was all rolled up with my work.<P>If I failed at work, I failed my W and family and I might as well leave. For I had come to believe that really all my W and family wanted from me was the paycheck (wife) and the car to go on dates( kids). Beyond that I felt my role was very small.<P>Now you may say, that is very self serving and you would be right from your perspective. However, from mine , in a state of deep depression because of my "failure" at work, it surely seemed that way.<P>I am not trying to get you to feel sorry for your H. But I am trying to get you to see that he might equate working on your marriage with getting his professional life straight. If he doesn't do that, he is having a hard time understanding why you might want him around. He may feel that this is all he can bring to the table, having messed everything else up.<P>Does any of this resonate with your situation AnnC? If it does, it will take awhile for this to sort out, but it does mean he is working on the marriage because he is working on his job. You may feel (perhaps correctly) that he should be working with you, but us guys sometimes don't work that way. Sorry! <P>So AnnC it sounds to me as if you are starting to get what you want and need, but just remember Baby Steps. Us guys are a little slow sometimes and our approach to things is a little different. <P>You are doing very well, hang in there. Your H is confused about many things, but I'll bet the one thing he is not confused about is that he wants you in his life.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL,<BR>Once again, your insight is invaluable and I enjoy being able to laugh and smile! You make me laugh which is badly needed right now.<BR>More insight - we made a major move last summer. Company H was working for closed his "division" - he was offered another job with company but wanted to stay in same area. Was offered a very good job with a great company - we mutually agreed there was no choice but to move. He was in new location for 4 months on his own, so our children could finish school year. Hence, I think he got used to being on his own, no responsibilities - no dealing with teenage girls who were very angry about having to leave friends, etc, they had grown up with - MAJOR move - and they are in high school. So, while I was home dealing with getting house ready, having house shown, dealing with girls acting out, he was miles away from "mess." - which I think may have acerbated this whole situation. Then, after moving in - dealing with unhappy, angry children, etc. So, I agree with what you are saying - and I think he hit mid-life and did not want to have to deal with all the mess - and, maybe some guilt about moving his children, and so on. Then, he moves us here and "leaves" - I left a great job, close friends, etc - hence, can you see why I am upset about him doing this after moving from our home. And, yes, I do see his side of it - and with your perspective...<BR>I now truly suspect that he is still in contact with OW - that still calls for Plan A??? <BR>God bless - A<BR>

Annc,<P>If you left a good job, and girls are still mad at him, where does he start? You have every right to be mad and hurt. But you want him to come back to you. You want him to talk to you. So the real question is how to get through the defenses he has put up, to protect himself, FROM: himself.<P>See what I am driving at here? If he has a conscience at all and you still feel he's worth having around, then he has got to feel guilty as all h___ or he has build defenses and buried all feelings. They are there but somehow you need to do a little detective work.<P>I know this sound like JL saying AnnC you get the priviledge (sp?) of doing all of the dirty work, yeah, and all of the hurting, that is sooo cool , and holding the family together, what a deal, . And he gets to do what??? , did you say feel better about himself? Whoa, how can I turn down such a deal.<P>But as I mentioned to you earlier, he will get his turn at the heavy lifting if he doesn't run to protect himself. Even if he runs he will have to face his girls (that would be you too ). So don't worry about fair. It isn't!<P>But if you want the marriage to work do your best to hang in there. By the way did you read Lostva's post today? Someone asked her for her opininon of things. Now you must Lostva is a bit long winded , but she is so good at explaining things.<P>Go find her posts, either general questions or recovery.<P>She will give you some idea of how to deal with this mess.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS. Here is the thread<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003493.html" TARGET=_blank>Lostva </A><P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited June 15, 2000).]<P>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited June 15, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited June 15, 2000).]

AnnC,<BR> I've been reading the post and I have a little input from the side of the WS. When I told my H about my PA, he wanted all the details. For him sex was the way to make me forget about the OM. Can I do this better than he did, etc ... I knew that then becuse the sex was too agressive. Excuse me (this may be too personal), but I like a more sensual style (get my drift). Also, I acted a lot like your husband. Instead of running the 1st night after the beginning of the PA, I eventually allowed myself to justify it although I had avoided the OM for a number of weeks.<P>I didn't want to discuss this with my H because it was toooooo painful. I locked up tighter than a maximum security prison with all of the nation's most crazed killers Any mention of the PA caused me to tuck tail and run. Please be patient with him. Don't ask him about it if he's not willing to tell you himself. I'm just now (7 1/2 months later) willing to talk about it. But as I wrote in today's post, I get to be the BS too. That was partly due to my closing up and not allowing my H to heal with me. The whole approach in the beginning was flawed. <P>Slight mentions of anything are LB's because they make him feel pressured. My H partly started trying to end his own PA because I told him that I was wrong for not helping him heal. (That's what he said to the oW during our confrontation, that he had talked to me and he knew then what he wanted was me). Just be there for your H. Make your home feel warm and everything will be ok. It'll take quite sometime - as seen by willingness 7 plus months later to actually talk about it.<P>Vee

Dear JL and Vee, <BR>Again, what would I do without all the wonderful support of this site!!!<BR>Yes, JL, I am beginning to understand...yes, I may be carrying the burden of holding this family together - my girls see that - but to me it is worth it. And, with the continued support of everyone keeping me on focus, and kicking my impatient behind...hopefully, I can do it!! Yes, I am a doer, a perfectionist, and I like results - I do what I say...so, I like results pretty fast - not reality...<BR>Vee, thank you - for making see that it will take time - to hang in, and hope he will someday talk if I can keep my big mouth shut...<BR>Oh, if you will all please keep "keeping on" and keep me in your prayers!!!!!<BR>Sincerely, A

PS<BR>Dr. Harley suggested that I ask on this site if anyone knows about a program you can install on your computer that keeps track of keystrokes?- he suggested I find it...<BR>Thanks - A

Annc,<P>Go to the general question section and ask. There is definitely such a program or programs. In fact information for getting it has been posted here before. I don't know where it is, but just ask this question in general questions. I am sure you will get what you need.<P>JL

Dear JL - <BR>Thanks for the tip - I agree with you and Jim about being careful about finding out "too much." - haven't done anything yet.<BR>Had a very good weekend - he had a great father's day... very nice and pleasant. Kept my lips zipped - until last night(Tues).<BR>I asked about the testing again - asked how I could help. He started yelling at me to "stop" and "leave me alone!!!" - I then expressed my feelings about the lack of intimacy and how it was creating all kinds of imaginings in my mind - that I needed help in understanding - "leave me alone", "I won't discuss it tonight" (he won't discuss any night...) So, once again I am on the downhill slope of the rollercoaster - there is going to be a point when I can tolerate no longer - the rejection and hurt is hard to bear; how long does one put up with a marriage with no intimacy? <BR>Still hurt, confused, and getting angry...<BR>A

Annc,<P>Have some patience here. It will take time for him to sort himself out. Pushing won't help, this is something he has do himself. I realize that the lack of affection is really hurting you, however, realize that he is shifting gears here. Sometimes they grind abit . <P>So hand in there.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Dear JL,<BR>You always manage to say the right things to make me feel better and to think more clearly!!!! Dr. Harley asked me to ask H today if he would call and talk to him - use the angle that he is helping me realize changes I need to make and he would like H's perspective on how I am doing so he can better guide me....well, of course, H said no! He said, "you know that's not me to talk to a third person about our relationship." So, curses, foiled again - ha! The patience of Job - I should really reread and maybe I can be more patient - patience is something I am not long on...but I will try. Thanks for your continued support and encouragement - you are helping me hang in...<BR>Annc <BR>PS - Hey, Mike, haven't heard from you in awhile - guess you got your fill of my birthday talk...sorry!! You have been very helpful also, and I hope to hear from you again....

Annc,<P>Glad we are helping you. You know this whole thing is a process and the key ingredient is <B>time </B>. You will learn to hate that word. <P>Don't worry about your H's reaction I suspect that Dr. H already knew the odds were slim. So keep on keepin on, Annc. You will do fine.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Funny how your H didn't mind talking to a third person when he brought an OW into the relationship. Seems to me he should not want to talk to a fourth person.<P>Okay, couldn't help that snide comment. I'll go back to trying to be good. Don't you ever use that comment on your H, AnnC. I think it would be a major LB. Good luck.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Annc:<BR><B>PS - Hey, Mike, haven't heard from you in awhile - guess you got your fill of my birthday talk...sorry!! You have been very helpful also, and I hope to hear from you again.... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Had Real Life intrude there for a few days <P>I'm still lurking atround.<BR>

Hey, Mike, JL, Jim, etc. - <BR>If you would like, maybe read Lapeine's post to me "Hey, Annc" - we are both having similar feelings and frustrations. <BR>Mike, good to hear from you again!!! Hope all is well with you. <BR>I am trying hard to hang in, yet the mind isn't cooperating - feel obsessed! Is it normal to not be able to think about anything else? to constantly wonder if H is in contact with OW? or if H will ever love you again? or if this is how our marriage is going to be from now on? etc., etc. I feel like I can't think about anything, that I am going crazy... We have had a good weekend, but I always wake up down in the mornings, because of no intimacy, etc. - I won't ramble and bore you anymore with that subject! Just can't tell you how much this helps to get on here and rant and rave and have people care!!! Thank you!!! God bless, A

Anne,<P>Read some of your posts. Sorry didn't have time to read them all. I understand where your at. It is really frustrating to feel like your the one doing all the work. A book that helped me to accept it somewhat is called "How One of You Can Bring The Two of You Together". Gave me some inspiration to keep trying. I also found out that for me their were alot of things I did need to work through on myself, so I did go to counciling on my own and am glad I did. More often then not, I am at a point where I have just accepted where my wife is at. The lack of intimacy on her part is difficult, but when I just let it go, things are pretty good. What also helped me through these times is to really concentrate on me. I did things I wanted to do. If my wife wanted to participate fine, if not, that was fine to. It was tough at times, but forcing myself to do them helped me to get over her attitude. For me, my wife also mentioned that she may have been exposed to STD. I guess for now I am not going to push her about getting checked out. She is the only one that can get herself in on that one. I have faced this fear before, and came to appoint where I just accepted that their is a chance she does have something. I guess if we get to a point where sex is happening again and I'm worried about it, I can use some protection.<P><BR>Keep at it, concentrate on yourself, be patient and God's strength to you.<P>Tim

Dear Tim,<BR>Thank you for posting - I appreciate your encouragement. I know - patience - is the big word here. We all have to give it time and be patient - that's the hard part when you want things to be fixed and better - it's the waiting that is hard. And, all the wondering - the mind can drive you crazy.<BR>Let's keep in touch.<BR>God bless, A

OK, if anyone cares to read my latest post under Lapeine's "hey Annc" - would appreciate thoughts...