mY D-DAY WAS 9/15/00 AND MY H. MOVED OUT ONE WEEK LATER. nOW HE SAYS HE IS ready to come home, but I am not sure if I am ready. Things like communication have improved, but really awful issues have not been dealt with. LIke hubby admitting the lies about my affairs, and telling everyone that I was the guilty one. And me sleeping on the floor while he has the bed, and other issues like this one. He says he isn't having an affair now, but he says he can't prove that it is over. I am unsure. I am afraid it is to soon, and the only reason my H. is pushing this is because of the holidays. This weekend was to be the OW and H. meeting weekend. They were to meet for the very first time. I hope you can understand that I am so scared that H. is using me again. How can I be sure? How can I not get hurt again? How can I be sure he is not using me? Is there anyone out there who can help me understand why this is happening? Is there any hope of a complete recovery? I am not sure any more--gn

Snugglermi,<BR> I don't think I've responded to you before, but I really can't see how you can even consider letting him move back in with you right now.<P> I read your other post where you said that he is giving you conditions of getting back together. Really, his arrogance is amazing! I think YOU should set some terms for getting back together.<P> For starters, I think I would tell him to get a job and then cut off his money supply if he doesn't agree and actually do it. I darned sure wouldn't be paying him to look after HIS own children! If he was actually being a real "househusband", I could understand your supporting him, but from what you've said, you work all those hours and STILL have to take care of things when you get home!<P> Second, why are YOU sleeping on the floor when he's there? You're the one paying the bills; you're the one who has been faithful.<P> Third, the next time he tells you that you have to admit to things you didn't do, look at him and calmly say, "Stick a sock in it. If you think I've been screwing around, PROVE IT!"<P> Fourth, calmly tell him that you are quite aware of his affair, that you are willing to work out your relationship, but that you will not be abused by him, and that there are conditions that HE must meet.<P> I'm quite sure that I could think of PLENTY of things to say to him, but I think I've said enough right now. Your H makes me furious!<P> Take what I've said with a grain of salt, but I really think you need to stand up for yourself better!

You can most definitely set boundries in Plan A!!!<P>Plan A is continued through and into recovery...<BR>...and even in SSA... Dr. Harley states...<BR>After telling the OP(lover) that the relationship is over letter(on page 58-59 of SAA)... Extraordinary precautions must be taken to guarantee separation...<BR><OL TYPE=1> <BR><LI> Changing jobs and relocating (Situation dependent)<BR><LI> Blocking all communication (phone, e-mail, pager, etc.)<BR><LI> Accounting for time<BR><LI> Accounting for money<BR><LI> Spending leisure time together<BR></OL><P>He must reenter the marriage <B>on your terms</B>... but not your demands... reasonableness is important here!<BR>BTW: I too, as the FS, slept on a mattress in my living room, while my wife(WS) locked me out of the bedroom...<BR>...please... this must stop... if he comes back!<P>Should you start on <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>?...<BR>...in time!<BR>...he has a lot to learn.<P>Should the other <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>2 (of the four) rules to guide marital recovery</A> (page 87 of SAA) <BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A></B> Take time to give your spouse undivided attention.<BR><LI> <B><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A></B> Be totally open and honest with your spouse.<BR>...kick in... <B>YES</B>!<P>All the more reason to set ground rules...<BR>...not straight-jacketing him...<BR>...but for him to have an honest commitment to...<BR>...dare I say it...<BR>...start the <I>education process</I>...<BR>...OF HIS OWN ACCORD!<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 13, 2000).]

Snug,<BR>Bless you, you do keep trying. I hear Sweetpea and Jim and have to agree. But in following your story I have to dump some of this back on you. Please don’t misunderstand, I’m in no way diminishing your pain, or your right to feel angry with all of the things that have taken place. Your H has done some things that would even piss off a preacher. However from where I sit, I see you with a great expectation. It would seem that your waiting for the day that H will say I had this A, I was wrong, I am totally to blame, that you have done nothing wrong and I will do everything I have to, to work with you as a team to make this better. Your asking for these admissions and his complete commitment when maybe he just is not ready yet, for whatever reason. I know we would all like to hear these things and some of with god’s grace will be just this lucky someday.<P>I guess what I’m trying to say is that you have to make the decision and once it's made stick with it for a while even if you get nothing in return, just to break the ice. Before you can let him return, you have to know that you can make this commitment. That commitment is Plan A. Give him love, meet his needs avoid any LB even if it is not immediately returned. Once the fog lifts he may be more willing to offer what you seek.<P>I agree in your case there should definitely be some rules to your plan A. No more unreasonable accusations directed towards you. No more mean spiritedness towards you. But as Jim says these have to be agreed on they can not be demands or no one wins.<P>Remember that I don’t know the total story only you do. These are my HO’s and I am in no way a professional. I may be misreading things, but as I stated this is what I see from the small bits of info shared here and my interpretations. I just wanted to put them out there as food for thought.<P>God Bless,<BR>oswald<BR>

Okay--I hear all of you. And I will ask my H. to be willing to work on these issues:<BR>1. Honesty between both of us.<BR>2. Keeping my goal, and sticking with it.<BR>3. Loving him, unconditionally.<BR>4. Asking him to talk with me on his belief<BR> that I had an affair.<BR>5. Letting my Husband know that I will not<BR> be his doormat, and gently inform him of<BR> my needs in this relationship.<BR>6. Gently let him know that I will not<BR> sacrafice a decent bed for the floor.<BR>7. Tell my husband gently about giving mutual respect. <BR>8. And stay to Plan A without LBing.<P>So I will let you all know what happens over the next few days. I hope things will improve soon. Thank you all for your one voice of sanity. God Bless you, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year gn

Hmm, you are in the driver's seat,snugglermi. <P>You have the power to effect a good change in your marriage and help your family. Don't relinquish the power. This is not a bad thing. This is your lever to get him into therapy with you.<P>He's out of the house, and wants back in. Your suspicions that it's in order to be home for the holidays are probably right. <P>My suggestion (and I'm not a success story, so take what I say with a grain of salt)<P> Tell him you are willing to work on the marriage, but it will have to be while you are living separately. That the work will be done with a qualified marriage counselor who believes in saving, not breaking up, marriages. Continue to live apart. <P>Reason for this suggestion: It was painful having him leave, for you and the kids. Do you want to subject yourselves to this again? <P>It's easy to make promises to get what you want. He can say anything, just to get back into the house. If he's sincere, he will be willing to continue living separated, get into counseling with you, and show you proof that he has stopped cheating with the OW.<P>In counseling, with an objective trained psychotherapist, go into his jealousy issues. Jealousy can happen because the accuser is him/herself cheating, and projecting it onto the innocent spouse.<P>He says he can't prove the affair is over. Why the h*** not? That's a pretty weak response to your question.<P>I liked Sweetpea's comments, and I agree with her. <P>Also, if your H doesn't have a place to stay, it ISN"T YOUR PROBLEM. Let him find a friend to sleep on the couch. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you aren't the Salvation Army. <P>

My. H. refuses to go to counseling. He said that in counseling, all I do is lie. He said that he would not be railroaded into it, and that he would go on his own. I gently told him I would go to a therapist of his choice, and he laughed at me, saying that I would just lie and make him look like a fool. That I would always be a liar. He also said that if he decided to move back, it would be on his terms. He said that things would change. He said I was not to wear makeup, I am to give up my Cellphone, I am to give up my Church, I am to give up my Computer, and then he would be happy in this marriage. He also said he felt I was weak, and that I was immature, and overly emotionaly. That I drain him daily emotionally, and that I need more mental help than he does. SO the verbal abuse starts, so he is not moving back in--gn

Good for you in not letting him move back in! He sounds like a real control freak besides being verbally abusive. Get counseling for yourself and detach from this guy until gets help.

{{{gn}}},<P>I know how much you wanted your H home.<P>If he isn't ready to come home...<BR>...having him come back... too early...<BR>...would be a mistake!<P>Always... work on a better you...<BR>...while your H is still in a fog.<P> <P>Jim

Why does H. have to be so mean? He says this is all my fault. That I am not a good wife, and that all I have done is destroyed his dreams, and made his life a living hell. He says that I am too fat, and that no man would want me, and that I am mentally unstable, and that I am manic depressive, and that there is no hope in our reconcilliation unless I admit to the truth of having multiple affairs. He said that I have to come "Clean" before we can be healthy. I refuse to admit to something I did not do, yet he trys to force this down me like bad medicine. I love him, but I am not sure I am the one for him. I do not think I can make him happy. I don't depend on him for my happiness, but I do enjoy his company and his attention when he gives it to me positively. But that positive attention is very rare. I am lost again in the pain of knowing he is not going to change, that he believes the problem lies in me, and that is it up to me to change to meet his needs better. Is this wrong, or is he right? Should I change to meet his needs, should I admit to these fictious affairs? WHAT SHOULD I DO? GOD HELP ME, I DON'T KNOW! gn<p>[This message has been edited by snugglermi (edited December 14, 2000).]

{gn},<P>Never admit to what you haven't done...<P>Be honest with him...<BR>...ask him about why he believes you have had affairs...<BR>...and show him (with contacts to the supposed OM if necessary)... that you have not had these affairs.<P>I see your pain...<P>Stick with Plan A as long as you can...<BR>...i.e. work on yourself as long as you can...<P>You never know when Plan B may be on your horizon.<P>BTW: God is helping you...<BR>...listen to His words...<BR>...open your heart... to God!<P> <P>Jim

Hon, I think you need to cut all contact with this man! He is manipulating you into thinking everything is your fault! Listen to me: IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!!!<P>Your H is the one with the problems!! He doesn't even make sense! Think about it....he says that no man would want you, yet turns around and accuses you of multiple affairs?<P>Too fat? Well, big deal! I'd be tempted to say, "I can lose the weight, but you will never lose ugly." <P>He's blaming YOU for making his life a living hell? Well, excuse me, but putting total responsibilty on you for making him happy is asking too much! This guy lays around and mooches off you, has you jumping through hoops for him, and he says you're making him miserable? IMO, your H is miserable because he has not done anything constructive in years and has made nothing of his life, from what it sounds like.<P>In one of your other posts, you said that he wants you to give up your church, plus a lot of other things. Well, my thought on that is that NO MAN should come between you and God. <P>Someone else told you that you are the one in the driver's seat. Well, hold tightly to the steering wheel! You can, and should, set the terms for his returning home.<P>I really think you should go to Plan B to protect yourself. This guy is tearing you down every chance he gets. You need to find out that you will be just fine, and probably a whole lot better, without him. As long as your husband can keep you upset, he will feel powerful and have no reason to change. Cutting him off will either make him or break him.<P>I know that what I've said is not going by MB principles, but your H is a piece of work! You do NOT deserve the crap he is dumping on you, and I think that the only way you can take care of yourself is by going to no contact. Let the OW meet all his needs, including financial. Find other arrangements for your children's care while you work; you can pay someone else as well as you can pay him to watch his own children!<P>If he wants to see the children, arrange for it to be through an intermediary. Don't let your children see you upset or crying, because he will surely find out about it. Be upbeat and positive about your life without him. Do some things for YOU! Get a makeover, a new outfit, or just spend a day doing something you enjoy.<P>Before you can possibly rebuild your marriage, you need to rebuild your self-esteem.<P>Please take care of yourself! Your children need you to be strong!<BR>

Hi snugglermi,<P>I would take a good hard look at the way your H treats you. It appears that he is starting the first stages of abusing you. I have seen this type of abuse with my sister and her H. He told her she was nothing, he never worked, and isolated her from her support system.<P>It sounds like your H is trying to do the same thing. I would do what Sweatpea has stated. Go to Plan B. I would get a seperation order in place so he can not get access to your children. I think most abused people in a relationship do not know that the abuser can not gain custody of the children. <P>He does not want you strong and on your own. He wants you believing you are nothing because he needs you to be under him to make himself feel better. Do you really want your children growing up with this. If you have a daughter do you want her to be treated like you are? Would you want your son to act like him? <P>If you can pay him to watch the children than you can pay someone else. Do not let him isolate you from your family, friends and church. Would you really want to be with this person if he is so unwilling to work on the issues? You should be in a partnership not his slave. Please if you do anything go get help for yourself. It will only be a matter of time before he would start treating your children the same way. Can you life with that. Try talking to someone who assists women in your sistuation. <P>What he is doing is wrong. You are a worthy valuable person. You should get more from him that what he is capable of doing now.

Well, I contacted the Harley's and set up an appointment to counsel. I was at home last night, after working 40 hours this week, and my H. was there watching the kids. Later in the evening, my Dad called me from Alabama, asking me if I got my Aunt and Uncles' address in the email. I said I had to check. SO I got on line, opened my email, and my H. was watching me. I didn't care, I have nothing to hide. When my box opened, there was an email from a male friend and his WIFE for me about birdwatching. My H. accussed me of inappropriate actions, told me I was a liar, and that He didn't trust me, and that I probably had fifteen email accounts, one for each of my lovers. I printed out the message, showing him it was about setting up a birdwatching day for the young children in the Church. He said that I was untrust worthy, and that it was all my fault that our marriage was in ruins. I did not respond, I got off line, after emailing my Dad that the address were not there, logged off, and went and slept on a mattress on the floor in my daughter's bedroom. He slept there last night. This morning, I ignored him, but he didn't get up to help with the kids, so when I left he was just getting up to get in the shower. I said bye, and he ignored me. I asked him if he was alright, and he said "No, not with you in my life" so I said, "YOu can leave anytime you want to." and left for work. I think I will tell him I need more time, and that I am not ready for any reconcilliation at this time. He can go and sleep at his sister's house, and be a busy body on his computer at his mother's house. I am going to follow God's advice that HE has given me through my CHurch and this forum. But it is hard to believe that I can completely let him go. I will make arrangements for my children to be other wised occupied for the afternoon for this Christmas break, so the break will be clean. I just thought it was going better. But in a way, I think my H. is an addiction that I NEED to kick the habit of. I will let you know how things are going. Thank you all--gn

Pahakissa1:<BR>Amen!

Too fat? By whose standards? You're probably beautiful.<P>The right man will recognize that beauty.<P>Meanwhile, if you stop going to church, get rid of the cell phone and computer, and admit that you're no good, he will have succeeded in isolating you. <P>Isolation is the first thing an abuser does to his victim. You have no objective observers to give input and feedback to you. He doesn't want an audience, he certainly doesn't want anyone to speak up in your defense or to give you another perspective.<P>No church? Well, absolutely. People are fornicatin' in the pews at 7:30 Mass in my town! Why else would I be going? Love those orgies carried on to the tune of the Kyrie, those homilies about reverence, loving your spouse, taking time out every day to pray. Yep, they really lead me toward the corner tavern afterwards, looking for fresh blood, young studs to seduce .<P>(Sarcasm - can't control myself.)<P>Be strong sweetie.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

I came home last night to find my H. waiting for me to take him shopping in another town for a gift for me. I was excited and wanted to go. After loading up the kids, off I drove while he dozed and the kids dozed. when we arrived at the big Mall in the other town, H. started about my behavior. Said not to embarrass him. So the kids and I walked behind him, with Me holding on to the youngest girls' hands, my son beside them, my H. in front. H. lead us to the food court, and I paid for dinner on my VISA. After dinner, H. asked me to show him some of my favorite stores. I did so, but in that time, my H. started with the rude remarks, "Keep your pants on" "Don't snear at the pretty ladies" Don't embarrass me again." "You sure like looking at other men." "keep those kids under control." "What in the hell are you looking for?" "I'm tired of being embarrassed, and you looking like I abuse you, we are leaving" "you can leave me here" "what in the hell is your problem? All I wanted to do<BR>is shop for your mother. She acting weird and all you kids do is run around and not respecting me!" In other words, going to a big Mall at Christmas time, my children could not be children. And I did nothing right. When we got home, H. wanted me to sleep with him, I told him I was to tired, and then he said "You can't keep up with me." and "I did nothing wrong, this is all your fault." I just turned around and went to my mattress on the floor and went to sleep, while his words "I did nothing wrong" echo through my head a million times. His affair with OW was nothing wrong. His emailing OW love letters and how much he wanted to be with her was nothing wrong. OH mY God! I guess he really thinks I am stupid. This morning he came in to my room and wanted to lay down with me, I told him I had a headache, He got mad, left the room. I got up and began house cleaning. i used up the hot water, and he got angry because he couldn't take a shower, and boom! He left, without saying a word to me, just got into that fancy Porsche I bought him 4 years ago, and disappeared. I need some serious help. Is this a healthy relationship? I really believe my H. does not care. I need some advice., please help me--gn

snugglermi<P>I am new to this site and will not say much because I'm sure some of the more experienced people in this forum will answer you. However, I am sure they will agree that this is definitely not a healthy relationship. <P>I am writing to offer you some information I've found on the Internet about recognizing abuse in your marriage. I collected it for a friend who, like many of us, didn't realize, or see very clearly, that she was being abused.<P>I will post some web page links here or send you the information by e-mail if you wish. If you want to keep your e-mail address private, you can send it to me at whizzer_kid@yahoo.com. (Yes, it's a silly name, created just in fun. I managed to wipe out my regular e-mail address at yahoo.com.)<P>Or if you wish you can search the Internet for emotional abuse and also verbal abuse, as it seems clear from how your husband treats you and what he says to you that you are being verbally and emotionally abused -- wall-to-wall, I would say. <P>hth<BR>Gail<p>[This message has been edited by computergal (edited December 16, 2000).]

I'd have to agree with Gail...<P>This does sound like an abusive relationship...<BR>...one you she seek professional counsel on!<P> <P>Jim

Last night was a great night for me. I went shopping with my Mom and sister. We got our nails done, and had lunch, and spent a day just being girls again. But this morning came the dawning of a new problem My Son. While at church he was disrespectful to me, and while in the van, he was disrespectful, and when I confronted him, he used the same bad mouthing I get from his dad, about how mean I am, and how unworthy I am, and how He "doesn't have to" any thing I ask him. I asked my son to help me load up some gifts to be donated to a Children's Treatment Facility, where the children there for mental health issues, and my son wanted the gifts for himself. When I explained the reason behind the gifts, my son went into a complete tanturm, throwing things at me, and telling me He was the boss. I was so embarrassed when a man and his wife from Church stepped in to control him. Then in the car, I told my son that if he does not respect me, then i was not going to take him on outings any more. His response was "I'll tell Daddy." And he did, so then my H. told me I was over reacting, and that I should just tell my son I am angry at him and leave it be. I told my h. that I would not be treated poorly by my son. That if our son could not treat me with respect, then I would not go out of my way to make our son's life easier. I would not make his bed, clean up his room, gather his laundry, buy his favorite foods, allow him to watch tv, play sega/nintendo, computer or have friends over. These things were priviledges and if he (son) wanted them, then he had to meet basic expectations: Respect. H. got angry said I was a control freak, and stormed out. Now my son is smirking because I can't go to the store to buy additional food becuase son will not get in to the car. I can't leave son here alone, and I can not physically force him to go, so the consequences are that son, and girls have to eat what is in the house. I also told my son, he needs to ask permission to get into the refridgerator, and needs to ask permission to turn on the tv, or anything like that. Is my H. right? Have I gone off the deep in? Is it wrong to ask my son to respect me, andif he doesn't for him to have consequences? AM I really in an abusive relationship? I am not sure what to think anymore...gn