To Tycush,<p>I find the reasoning of your wife quite interesting. My friend your wife expouses the philosophy of hedonism. The definition of a hedonist is the following: "The doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life."
---Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary<p>I thought your comment asking her why she is unable to clarify things on the phone was excellent. You know why she was unable to answer because you know the true answer. She wishes to leave you during the holiday season so she can engage in additional sexual intimacy with this man whether she plans to have a life with him or not.
The contention that since you love her and this will make her happy then you should allow it without complaining is ridiculous. What if being with two different men at the same time makes her happy? What if she wishes to have you watch her be intimate with another person and so forth. Based on this logic anything and everything is acceptable that makes her happy and you therefore do not love her if you object. If you accept this logic then you will spend the rest of your life in pain and making excuses for her behavior.<p>Let me ask you a question. Let us say you and your wife are in a situation where the choice was saving your spouse and losing your life or saving your life and losing your spouse. What would the selection you and your wife would make. I would bet that you would select saving your wife and she would select saving herself. I think this is true love.<p>I do agree with your wife that she is better (but not by much) than her friend you mentioned. Your wife has been honest in this regard in that she is having sex with another man and therefore has allowed you options on how you wish to live your life. I give her credit on that one. It seems you are willing to subject yourself to this mess and hope that your wife will see the light. I suggest that you get tested after she returns. I know this sounds harsh but this is reality and this is your life by your choice. Your wife is basically saying this is who I am: Love it or leave it. It really is your choice. She is who she is and you are who you are. I wish you luck!

in regards to -
quote: from http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=006876&p=2
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Make sure he knows that you are not about to just give up this marriage to her and that he is in fact breaking up a family
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Is it him that's breaking up the family? My WS's choices brought the A into this marriage.. Ultimately, it's my WS that's breaking up this family. I don't want to judge him, and I don't expect he will just go away because of morals and values (does he have any, getting involved with a married woman?) and why would he care if I say I'm not giving up on this marriage - I guess I only want for him to what's going on. Thoughts on OM having link to these postings? Thank You.

Tycush
Like I said before Love Yourself. Do not let your wife play "let me make up my mind at your expense game." The reply that said get a hotel and some money was correct. If she goes on this trip then Plan B. Her immoral choices are breaking up your family so she should move out without your son. Good morals and setting a good example are part of being a good parent. She should ask herself what your son is going to think about this when he gets old enough to understand what has happened especially if this causes a divorce. Our daughter turned from Daddy's little girl to hating and having no respect for her father. It has taken months for that relationship to start to heal and I wonder if it will ever be the same. I would advise you see a lawyer to learn your rights because they vary from state to state. To your wife: My husband thought the OW was the most important women and best thing that ever happened to him. He thought he had married the wrong person. He was willing to risk everything to be with her. No one understood or accepted him like her. The affair was more emotional than sexual and lasted for several years. But when everything hit the fan he found out it the price was to high. Everything he thought he was willing to risk and give up was too much. You and the OM are not living in the real world of relationships. You are not dealing with the 24/7 small hurts or probelms as a couple. You can be what he wants and he can be what you want. This is a false front and if you two did become a couple it would crumble. My husband went through withdrawals for the OW. Time heals and as we looked at and repaired our probelms our marriage is getting stronger. He is not "in love" with me everyday but the days he is out numbers the days he is not. It has not been easy, it would of been alot easier to get a divorce. But easy is not always better. Working out probelms as a couple and a family strenghtens you. My husband regrets what he has done and sees what a sham his affair was. We are both looking forward to a long life together because we know how to solve the biggest of probelms and still love each other.

Tycush,<p>Check out some of my old posts from 2000. Your wife has the same Long distance work PA that mine had/has. Very long & very slow to work out because of the distance and the job related issues. You also mentioned that she reads your post. If that's still the case I have a message for her.<p>To Tycush's wife. You are living a lie that will overtime destroy you mentally and physically, not to mention hurt a child and a person who loves you. You already have a man at home who knows the truth about the OM and still wants you, but yet you&#8217;re afraid to tell the OM the truth about still being married and loving your husband. Think about it. Why not level with the OM if it's really love? What do you have to loose? In your perfect fantasy of running of into the sunset with the OM and playing house do you ever envision that someday your husband will meet him and the OM will learn the truth? Quit playing games with your husband while you still have a chance to reconcile. Quit running from your responsibility as an adult in the name of happiness. The feelings of hurt and bitterness that you are instilling in him are compounded with each and every day and thoughtless act. <p>TyCush,
Be the best man/husband you can. You may have participated in setting the field that caused this situation but you can be proud of being an adult in trying to resolve it in a mature and non-hurtful way. I'm quite familiar with the dynamics of the business trip EA/PA game/delusion, so feel free to ask me any questions you might have on the GQII board. <p>
Good Luck,
HI

I asked my wife what would she say if I need another woman right away. She answered, you need to do what you need to do and she would be ok with that. Then I asked her, (not that I would) but would it be ok if I turn homosexual. She said that's going a bit too far. In my opinion, she's trying to justify what she's doing is OK.<p>This trip is what's got me bogged down the most. She says she's got to get some questions answered. Why can't she resolve issues with him over the phone... I know, it's the physical desire - Bryanp spelled this out for me. It's like a drug - she's had it before, it was great, and wants it again - at any cost - granted there's some EN in there too. WS and I have been reading all of these postings and what HiInfidelity wrote to my W - hopefully helped her realize the truth of the matter.<p>I'm also trying to come to terms with myself, in that do I really want to stay in a marriage where I'm not loved. She's going to disagree with that when she reads this, but does she still love me, how can she... I feel like I'm on the edge of giving up - not so much giving up, but moving on - closing this chapter with new knowledge of myself and experience. Don't know if this makes any sense but I can maybe see that if she were to go on this trip, come back and continue as is - I would feel that when (if) she said OK, OM is done, and let's move forward with marriage and get help I may feel that she'll be the door prize for me. I do Love her more than anything and I would feel that she deserves someone who will love her regardless of her values of 'good feeling, happiness guidence'. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] In a wierd way I'd be cheating her out of true love. still confused, forever, I guess. That's life.

tycush, <p> I'm still a newbie at all of this, but I can relate to your story. Since my DDay I've been very blunt in my opions.
Your W sounds like:
a. she wants her cake and eat it too.
b. is afraid of being alone.
c. totally taking atvantage of you....<p> If she was serious about working things out she wouldn't be rubbing things in your face. I'll quote my lawyer " God forbid we upset the cheating spouse" Oh please give me a break!! Not only would I e-mail the OM, I would call him directly with W sitting there monitering the call. I can understand the love you have for her, and maybe not hurting her, but was she thinking about not hurting you when she was lying and cheating on you and your child? I would put plan A into action, which would take care of the trip. I would also get into counceling ASAP.

Arpow - I take your opinion as a double negative. 2 wrongs don't make right. What you are suggesting is: you hurt me so I'll hurt you. Is that right? I do believe that the feelings she has for the OM is an accident, not intentional at the start, he continued to meet a (or a couple) need(s) that she was not getting fullfilled by me. I don't think she would ever intentionally hurt me... but these feelings she has for this guy is overpowering her. she's questioning herself if she can be happy with me. (I know, cop out) but she doesn't see it that way.<p>plan A would not include contacting the OM would it?<p>All, would you happen to have any words of wisdom to tell my W. your opinions are important to both of us (and very appreciated) but are there any words to help her feel better about what she's doing (me, H - doesn't understand this) - or help her understand that what she's doing is an addiction and not real love? that is correct right? (she's seen him 3 times) 2000 miles away, communication over e-mail. She says nobody cares about how she feels or what she's thinking. I told her she needs to do what she needs to do and she says she's so torn and confused and unhappy and don't know what to do. Thank You.

tycush,
I'm sorry if my words were abrupt.( to both of you) I didn't mean two wrongs make a right, what I meant was if she was lying to you & the OM he has a right to know. If I'm reading Plan A correctly, ALL ties to the OP should be broken. In that case this trip shouldn't be an issue.
As for advice for your W, I really think seeing a C would be extreamly helpful, again for both of you. I also think that the influence that your W's friend has is strong, (especially if she doen't care for you). My H is going through the same confusion, and all the feelings are very similar to your W's. The C does help, but he is very much in the fog. W should sit down and think of all the pro's and con's. You should read all the info. on the web page about the withdrawl, it was very helpful. Once again I hope I've clairified myself a little, and I hope things work out. You have a long raod ahead of you, be strong. God bless...

Then basically, she's not in plan A - only I am - therefore treating her with respect would include NOT sending the OM and e-mail or these postings so he'll truely understand what's going on.<p>We are both seeing a C. (not together) It started out together after i found out about the OM and she said it's over between them two, let's work on our marriage, we went to C together for a couple weeks, things appeared to be going well, until I found more lies. It was a hoaks. It never ended and hasn't (trip comming up).<p>I don't know if I can continue plan a if she goes on this trip - she's read all of these postings (posted in EN, Just Found Out, GQII) and it seems quite clear to me - not to her. Granted, what is clear is that she has to do what she feels is right for her, why is it so selfish then and c'mon, we're dealing with a family - I know she loves me - the OM has a hook in her and she won't even tell me how he got it there...<p>If you live your life always for yourself, wouldn't that be a lonely life?<p> thanks for your support and prayers!

Then basically, she's not in plan A - only I am - therefore treating her with respect would include NOT sending the OM and e-mail or these postings so he'll truely understand what's going on.<p>We are both seeing a C. (not together) It started out together after i found out about the OM and she said it's over between them two, let's work on our marriage, we went to C together for a couple weeks, things appeared to be going well, until I found more lies. It was a hoaks. It never ended and hasn't (trip comming up).<p>I don't know if I can continue plan a if she goes on this trip - she's read all of these postings (posted in EN, Just Found Out, GQII) and it seems quite clear to me - not to her. Granted, what is clear is that she has to do what she feels is right for her, why is it so selfish then and c'mon, we're dealing with a family - I know she loves me - the OM has a hook in her and she won't even tell me how he got it there...<p>If you live your life always for yourself, wouldn't that be a lonely life?<p> thanks for your support and prayers!

sooo let me get this straight, "treating her with respect". Is she treating you with respect? As far as I understand, isn't repect a two lane highway? I'm only seeing one way here. I've read your posts on GQ11 and EN and you have stired up a lot of opinions, good and bad. I'm sorry, I agree with barry, like I said before, she wants her cake and eat it too.
"If you live your life always for yourself, wouldn't that be a lonely life?" Maybe you should ask your W that same question...<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: ARPOW ]</p>

W says I'll never see it her way and she can't see it my way. She asks the question, "Am I really marriage material?" OPINION?<p>She wrote me this earlier today:<p>"No love units left? I just don't see it as not having love units for you. I'm just trying to be honest with myself and with you. Can't you see that I've been working on that? I told you when he calls, don't I. I just feel that is I'm going to make a decision, but I don't see the decistion as this 'trip'. I see this coming after the trip. This may sound stupid and probably room for interpretation but if I don't go, will I ever have it out of my system? do you understand this is so hard for me - like you said, in a perfect world this would have never happened, but it did. If loosing you (according to you) is what will happen - then I have essentially... then she stopped writting. thoughts?<p>I asked her to finish this and she said - "THEN ESSENTIALLY i HAVE NO CHOICE. i DON'T WANT TO LOOSE YOU, BUT I NEED TO FIND MYSELF FIRST. I KNOW, I KNOW....YOU SAY THAT I CAN DO THAT HERE AND NOW...I'VE BEEN TRYING.

MAYBE I NEED TO GO TO TIMBUKTU AND COME BACK NEXT YEAR"<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: tycush ]</p>

ty-
How long have you and youe wife been married? Together? How old is she if you don't mind me asking?

Arpow - ws 26 married in 96 together since 91. hung pups - may be the problem.. ws may not of partied enough. I never did, never cared or care to - I have a family... thanks.

ty-
So if I'm doing my math right, you've been with this woman since she was 16 right? If that is the case I might have some insight...

Ty,<p>I am not having the best of days so I am going to be blunt and too the point. STOP TRYING TO EDUCATE OR GUILT YOUR W.<p>THe respect arguement is stupid. She may or may not respect you, but she is going to do what she wants. PERIOD! So don't talk to her about this anymore.<p>Don't talk to her about the trip anymore. She either goes or doesn't go. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAS TO MAKE A DECISION. So quit talking and start thinking. You are either going to Plan A her which means not talking about what she thinks and paying attention to yourself and what you have or have/not done in the marriage. OR you are going to decide to end this.<p>Second, you are going to have to decide how you respond to her when she goes and comes back, if she does.<p>All of these are your options and none of them will be helped or guided by her. These are YOUR decisions.<p>I would recommend Plan A. If you decide that is your route, knock off the relationship talks. It will not help and will only hurt.<p>If you decide that you cannot RESPECT YOURSELF if she goes there and comes back then you need to decide how you are going to deal with this. It is not her choice and frankly she has little to do with your choice.<p>Work on yourself, take good care of your child, and MAKE A DECISION. You see no matter what you decide you are not going to REASON or GUILT your W into doing what is right. She is going to have to come to that conclusion herself.<p>So are you.<p>You have decisions to make Ty, quit talking to her about hers.<p>Sorry, for being so blunt, but I am in a hurry and I think you are blowing your chances by discussion this trip with her further.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Arpow - you are correct..<p>Just Learning - I agree with you - I've recently come to terms with - I have decision to make as well. I just don't understand WHY she can't see it's an addiction.... I haven't been talking about the relationship or trip too much - she's actually been bringing it up more often in the past couple days and she's been very interested in these posting. Thank You.

Arpow - what is your insight? Thanks.

This is the WS<p>Do I not owe it to my H to be true to myself? I mean what is a committment without truley meaning it? Wouldn't it be a cop-out to just say OK, let's make this marriage work? I've actually said this before to H, but didn't really mean it. I guess I was hoping that these feelings for the OM, my worthlessness for what I've done would simply go away, but it hasn't. I know this cannot continue and I do want the madness to end, to everyone involves benefit.

To WS:<p>How would you like to receive the following letter from your husband:<p>Dear WS:
I know that I made a committment to you when I said my wedding vows and we had a beautiful child together. I just want you to know that I have to be true to myself and leave on a trip during the Christmas holidays so I can be with my OW in which I will enjoy myself being sexually intimate with her. You cannot be upset with me since I tell you when I do these things. Even when I return from my sexual encounter trip I will still not make a decision yet. Gee I need to be true to myself so it is all right to be sexual with another woman.
Afterall what is a committment if I do not really feel it. I wish I could stop this madness but the sex is so exciting and the passion is so great with this woman that I am willing to leave you and my daughter for a really cool trip with my lover.
I will make you no promises when I return. In fact, I just may have to continue these trips to get my head on straight. It is true I made a commitment to you when we were married and had a child with you but I have to find myself.
I guess my lack of self-esteem just forces me to
have sex with this other woman even though I am married to you. I just don't understand why you cannot see my position.
I know it will be difficult for you sleeping in our bed at night knowing I am having great and wonderful sex with my woman but hey I got to be me. I am sure you will understand.<p>Your Loving husband.