Torizo,
I know it's not fun being where you are, but there is good in this. Take a look:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>We now rarely talk about A and OM anymore, her talk seems to be focused on D, which we talked about as well, neither of us has the $$$ for it right now, and she told me there is no real hurry.<p>Women are sooo confusing sometimes.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, they are. Take a close look above that though. There is no real hurry to get D. This is a change. It also give you the time you need. You may not get much "face to face" time, but it is the time that heals. It is also time for you to work on you so that when you get "face to face" time you are prepared for it and make it as productive as possible. (or at least you won't screw it up and make things worse than thy are [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>I know what I haven't done for her, and I've told her that, and it doesn't seem to affect her any.</strong><hr></blockquote>Sory kiddo. Like I said before, she's not going to let you see that your making any headway. Trust in the RedHat, the RedHat is good. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] She is seeing what you are doing. If she didn't see, you would still be on the fast track to D.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>I just wish she would meet me somewher, so we can talk face to face or maybe spend some time together. but I know it won't happen, she's too involved in OM.</strong><hr></blockquote>That's true for now. Funny how perceptive we can be to the negative in life, but we miss the positive. Let's take a minute to reflect on the fact that we aren't moving as quickly twards D as we once were. Sometimes progress is hard to see, and sometimes we have to look at life a little backwards to see it. I think we would both agree that heading for a train wreck isn't good, but its better than quickley heading for a train wreck. If your not headed there quickley, you can still change the outcome.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>So I guess now I work on me, and kind of put her "on the back burner" so to speak, until she calls me, then I can tell her how much she means to me, and how much I care, and how I want her to be "happy".<p>oh, and no LB.<p>Thank you all for the support.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is the tough part, my friend, but you are well on your way to winning the big prize with this one.<p>Off topic note:<p>I never realy realized what it took to make my M work, untill the day my W moved out. Even then, I knew I wasn't doing the right thing, but I didn't know what the right thing was. Then I found this website. I read everything I could here untill I could get a couple of the books. I began to understand how to make my M and my life better than it had been in the past. Finding this site, understanding the implications of what I read and putting the theories into practice so that my M and my life could be better than it was before is what I call "Enlightnenment".<p>You have found this site. You have understood the change that can be made to improve yourself and your M. You are makeing an effort to follow the path set before you to make a better life and M for yourself. I think you qualify for the title and so does RedHat. This does not say that you or any of us are perfect. Only that we try our best to improve ourselvs and our M's.<p>Sory man, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Feel free to hijack mine somtime.<p>My thoughts, hopes, and prayers go with you.<p>Thanks
Rev

Merry Christmas,
You are doing good! What realy helped me when I was in your shoes was telling her what I was learning about myself while we were apart. As you read and learn from this web site and form books share what you have learned about yourself with her. This will spark intrest that will draw her attention towards you. You must present yourself as a strong and loyal husband one that she can still come to for saftey and comfort and have a tone in your voice that tells her you are genuine. Do not have a desprate tone of voice. Don't try to smother her with "I love you, I love you, I love you...." She knows that you love her, show her that you have been enlightend and yes its good to let her know that she is welcome to come home. Good luck.<p>SH

Very Good Point(s) in all of this, I suppose life is a little backwards sometimes and I need to look at it that way.<p>I also learned, that it takes someone else to point out the "good" things of a "bad" situation.<p>Not to get "off subject", when she filled out ENQ, her first 3 ENs on the list are : affection(which all of this has made me see I wasn't giving it to her), Recreation(Same as above, But We didn't do enough of the things she likes), and admiration(which I have told her repeatedly since this happened how much of an honor it's been being with her, though I'm not sure if that falls under admiration or affection [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>It's hard to give affection(other than telling her how much she means and how much I love her, and want to work on this) over the phone and its really hard to have recreation over the phone [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>But hey, I'm trying, and trying not to say or do any LBs. But I think I've learned to "bite my tongue" when I need to.<p>Time is all thats left... time to think...and time to heal...<p>But if I had a delorean that ran on plutonium..... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Merry Christmas...

Torizo,
I've been watching your posts today. Please tell me your not sitting in front of your computer staring at the forum gateway waiting for the next reply like I am.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>It's hard to give affection(other than telling her how much she means and how much I love her, and want to work on this)</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How is she on cards and gifts? My W is big on that kind of thing. I leave small stuffed animals, chocolate, or cards in her car to find or other places that will supprize her. I don't go overboard in size, but I do this a 2+ times a week. I always get a call of apreciation. I like the apreciation, but it's not the point. The point is to show her I care. If she calls, I get time to talk to her and show the new me.<p>Let me know what you think.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

Hi Torizo,<p>You have been getting good support. You have shown amazing strength during this time. Continue to post your thoughts and feelings here. Rev is doing good himself and has given you many points to help you. <p>Funny how much we can glean from situations similar to our own. Redhat, Stillhers and others are also making good points. <p>So for what it is worth, here are mine. While you are trying your best to show her your best, make sure you take care of yourself. What your W did was highly disrespectful of your and your marriage. She is very confused right now as you have seen. You have a choice to ride this rollercoaser and hang on every word, thought and deed she does or work on yourself and pay attention to her consistent actions. Let her know you love her but that you do not condone her disrespect. <p>How do you do that? Read up on plan A and B under the basic concepts section. I think you said you read his needs/her needs? Good if not read it. Then take a look at the book, 'Love must be tough. It is by Dr James Dobson. He gets referenced here a lot because when the WS is out there having their fling, the emotional pain on the BS is incredible. You will look back and wonder how you survived. But survive you will. The point between now and then is cruicial to your survival. Learn from those who have travel thed this road before you. Sometimes they will say things that may sound illogical but remember that is the kind of person our spouses have become and soe of the methods used are very illogical but work with the WS. Listen to all and then pick out the ones that best suit your situation. Don't follow what everyone says to the T because your situation will have it's variances. I say, pick out the good and discard the bad. <p>Another thing is that anxiety attacks even with the guys is common. Beaware and prepared. A visit to your counselor and doctor may be wise. Let them know what you are facing and they can help. Remember these are aides not permanent fixes. Only the 2 of you can do that and even if you are doing all you can, unless she is willing to work on the M, it will not happen. However in the interim you can work on becoming a better person and in time she will see that. <p>My H went from blaming me for his A to absolving me in front of the OW. This angered the OW and she is still trying to figure out where she went wrong (just 3 days ago). Hey, I'm not going to tell her that she LB'd big time and many times at that. I am not going to give her any ammonition to use against me. She is very good at that and your OP maybe also. You are dealing with 2 types of OPs and that is hard. But T, you can do it. <p>Ok? We are here to help. I will send both you and rev a thread that helped me it is from a dad on the divorce site here at mb. I think you will like it. I will try to send it by the end of the day. <p>Take care,
L.

Rev, Unfortunately, I am. I just went to dinner at my dad's and now I'm back to stare at the Boards... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

You all have VERY good Points, The only problem with the gifts rev, is she lives 50 miles from me now, thats 100 miles round trip, and unfortunately the snow has begun falling here in ohio, but I will try to make it a habit to drop off a gift once a week at least.<p>also, as for plan A, I sent my W this letter on 12/14/01, when this all started(or at least me being here @ MB.<p>Hi honey, <p>I wanted to write to you a letter of how I feel in the hopes that I could express my total feelings. I know we have had our good times and with those, our bad times. I have had feelings that we got lost along the way, somewhere between work and normal everyday life. I think somewhere, somehow we, or I, forgot what it was all for, what we meant to each other. I think the routine of life got in the way of the love I feel for you. I am very sad that it took the knowledge of your affair to make me realize how much I love you. I am very sorry that it happened and I would do anything to have you do it over again but we know what has happened is real and nothing can change it, and it will always be with us. I do feel we can use this to better our marriage and make it so much better. I am sorry I have neglected you and I haven't been there for you when you needed me, this I can change though, I promise I will make every attempt to be there for you when you need me. I feel that I am partly at blame because I wasn't always there for you, and I am sorry. I know that you have felt as much pain as I, and I don't know that I could make it through this by myself, but with you by my side I will try my very best to help you through this, I only ask that you be patient with me: forgiveness will come with time. <p>When I first learned of the infidelity I wanted nothing to do with you, and I had hate running through my body. I realize now that I never hated you, I was very angry, confused, and in total shock, the truth is I love you and you hurt me a lot. Now, I know that I can get past this I can move on and eventually I will forgive you because I love you. I really hope that you can forgive yourself and stay by my side to help me forgive you. <p>One year ago I married you. I loved you more than you can imagine. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with you and make a family. It was the happiest day of my life , even though I was so nervous , I knew it was what I wanted. When I stood in that church in front of God, I gave you all of me, I gave you all of my love and all of my heart. I knew we could go from that church and become the best husband and wife ever, and in time the best family. I knew that nothing could stop the love I had for you, and with that nothing could stop us. Now I feel that same love again, Somewhere along the long road that has led us to this point that love faded, but never left. I knew I loved you, but forgot how much I really love you, now I remember. I just was to busy with work and life to see It. As painful as this has been, It has made me see how much I love you, I never lost the love, it was always there. When I stood in that church and gave you my heart I knew that over the years you might not take care of it or you might hurt it. Now I know you have broken it, but I don't want to take it back, I want you to keep it. I just want you to help me to put all the pieces back together. I want you to hold it close and take very good care of it because as you know it is very delicate and easily broken. And if you do this for me I will continue to give you all my love. <p>
Sincerely
Your loving husband<p>
P.S. You will always be the love of my life.<p>I found the letter in the forums, and I wish I could give credit to the person who wrote it, but I forgot their name. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (I of course changed a few things)<p>and since then it has been a real rollercoaster of emotions and events. <p>her saying she wants D, Me taking her all her stuff, her even telling me what she wants when we do D. I nor her have the $$$ for D, and besides that, she HAS to wait at least 6 months(5 now) before she can even file, Ohio law says you must live in the county you file for a min. of 6 months. and when she left she changed counties.
(Bet she didn't think of that) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So I at least know a "time frame" in which to work at this...<p>now to work on me...

T,<p>I wondered where you went. I took a break myself. Folded some clothes then took some time for me. Put on the headset, some Natalie Merchant, and went to town on my drums.<p>Feeling a bit better now.<p>Orchid is right, take what you need and leave the rest here. No one here can live through this for you nor can any of us make decisions for you. This is your life. You have to look at yourself in the mirror. I'm not just talking about integrity here. Integrity is a factor, but you can't get through this tired and worn out. We can't function at the top of our game unless we care for ourselves. I have to hit somthing once in a while to maintain my sanity. If you don't play drums this probably isn't a good outlet for you, but I think you get my point. Eat nutritiously, get the rest you need, vent when you need, excercise if you must [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , but take good care of yourself.<p>Always remember to care for yourself first. You may get a chance to care for W later, and you want to be in good shape to do that.<p>Thanks
Rev

Right now Taking care of me means finding a job, got laid off last tuesday(1 week before christmas, how nice of them)and thats my current thing, I told my W that after I get a new job, I'm probably moving somewhere less expensive rent-wise, and I'll contact her with the new address and phone #. she said ok, and that she would always be there, and I could email her @ any time I wanted.<p>sometimes it almost feels like plan B, but we still have contact.<p>At this moment I'm trying, not so much so push her to save M as I am to still be "friends", But I can hear it in her voice when we talk, she is so sad, and sounds like she could just break down at any moment and cry,(which she usually does when I tell her how I cherish her and every moment spent together or talking). but she always tries to hide it. And yet at the same time, she seems adamant about being with OM and thats what she wants.(though I don't know if she "feels" that way thas what she "tells" me.<p>but as I said, I know I have to work on me, I even have a "plan" though I don't know yet how it's going to work out.<p>Get a new job(preferably more $$$ than last job), If job 1 doesn't pay more than possibly a part-time job too, less bills, and maybe get some "extra" $$$ saved up, possibly go to local gym(Wifes cooking put on a few extra pounds [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , contiue reading books, and visiting MB, and essentially make a whole new me. I think I and I hope she will like the me I "can" become.<p>Only time will tell...

Torizo,
What a small cyber world ... I am an alumni of CWRU'85 (CIT). I am watching lifetime and he just told her about his new girl freind. EN at play ... now they got married ... argh ! Anyway, I am flipping between this board and TV. sorry.

Wow A Fellow Ohio Person, Ya know you shouldn't watch the lifetime channel,nothing but bad things to watch at our emotinal state. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh what to do ???

I used to lived at Lakewood, OH. while I am at school. Now I live at SF, CA. I saw you had posted your profile, that is good. If you have time go through notable posts. It is a collection of MB veteran's wisdom. I visit and reread some posts once in a while, it help me a lot.

Currently in Lakewood Oh, Born and raised here, W is from AZ, We met when she moved up here with family, and family moved back to AZ, she stayed here because we met, and had decide to form a R, and move in together. Wow, seems so long ago nw, even though it was only four years ago.<p>If only the clock could be turned back.... If only I had paid more attention to her...<p>But, we can't change the past, or even the present, we can only alter the future...

WOW !!!, I use to lived in the apt. next to the mortuary across the police station. God has a way to show us that HE is in control.<p>Here is one of my favorite, a reply on Who is this person I married? by harddaynight, a plea from a WS.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Can you say FOG,FOG,FOG,FOG....I have something that I will share that may make you see things more clearly. I preached that I would never cheat on my husband, I was the perfect wife(far from it I know now). After twenty plus years I met a man. I told him no, no, no, he persisted. I ended up moving out of my husbands house. For the first time in my life I lived alone. I was seeing this man talking only(not cheating in my mind). After a month or so of my Husband calling me every name in the book, wishing death on me etc. I willingly fell into the OM arms. We are now married, my ex filed for divorce shortly after I moved out. I know he spoke out of anger, fear, hurt. Well three years into the relationship with my current H I find that it was all built on lies. He needed a strong woman to stand by him to face what he is facing now. My whole relationship with him was built on lies. I am still married to him, but with hindsight I now recognize the fog I was in. So in my opinion it is never too late as my ex could have won me over many times before I actually married this H. He just didn't know how close he was to doing it and gave up. I am now closer to my ex then ever before because I walk in his shoes now and know the heartache and pain of being married to someone like me. I will tell everyone on here if you want your spouse regardless of the hurt and pain they have caused you fight for them. Even when the battle seems lost it might not be. I am fighting for this marriage because my ex did not fight for ours. I refuse to keep hopping from one marriage to another and I think that we are worth the effort. At least I pray we are. Just my two cents worth. Jenni</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have to wait until I compose my self everytime I read this. I do not want to be her exH.

I live near steve barry buick on detroit. Not that far away.<p>wow, thats something, I wonder if my W feels that way, or if she will feel that way.<p>I only wish I knew, but thats life, we can't look ahead in time, we can only take it day by day.<p>My W is lost in the fog, she is confused. I only hope she begins to "see" what is going on.

I think it is a bad thing to "think about things" sometimes. I was thinking about all of our phone calls since this all started and was wondering to myself : if she "seems" to have "doubts" about what she is doing, then why stay so adamant about not working it out, and D?<p>or am I just perceiving it wrong and she really "Does" want to leave and be done with M, and I'm holding on to "false hopes"?<p>Just a thought that crossed through my mind.<p>BTW, tomorrow she is changing all the bills from her name to my name tomorrow, I live here, and I pay the bills. Which is another thing, she says she is "unhappy" with me, yet she hasn't had to work much during our time together, a year out of the four we've been together. and now, if OM don't make enough $$$ she'll have to go to work, I just thought of that, I wonder if she has.<p>I mean obviously that is not one of her "unmet" ENs, but it was another thought of mine.<p>Hmmm...<p>It's nice to have somewhere to vent and get advice. Thanks for your support.

T, does this really make sense? You are out of a job and she is changing the bills to your name? See the fog and the babble? <p>Ok now, work with what you know. She is out there with a distored sense trying to make decisions. You want her to make decisions for you right now? Yet whatever you tell her will go in one ear and out the other. At least for now. <p>So listen but don't react to what she says for now. K?<p>L.

I'll keep that in mind orchid, As for the bills, even though they are in her name, I am the one paying them, even before the job thing. and now she claims she wants a D and wants out of my lie and our M, I can only protect myself, and prepare for the worst, the last thing I need is her to irrationally decide to shut off a utility, I live here, and I use the utilities, as well as pay for them. and the less ties with her right now the better. I am taking care of "me" first and foremost. and our M right now is kind of in limbo, until something happens between her and OM, or she comes out of the "fog", or she just plainly realizes what she is doing is all a mistake, and realizes "Home" is a "safe place" and wants to work it out. I have some things of hers still here, and a couple things she would like if we do D. So, I am going to drop them off to her this weekend, then our only contact will be when she calls me, which is unlikely to happen, until she "misses" me.<p>It could be a day after I drop off her stuff, it could be a month. and as sad as it is, I am starting to "feel" she might actually believe that she is happy with OM and wants D.<p>Only time can answer that though.

T,<p>Just a note:<p>I had to go fight with my parents for a while and felt bad about leaving you hangin'.<p>Now that I look at this I missed half your life. Glad you didn't get left alone. Keep up the good work.<p>Thanks
Rev

You are all so great, I wish it were possible to meet you all face to face ang give you all a big hug for the support, and the help and guidance in my times of need, But alas, that is not possible.<p>so...<p>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS To All}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p>But now comes one of the greater challenges I face, The uncertainty, and the waiting.<p>I know I don't want to lose her, and I'm willing to do anything. But it kills me to think of her giving her love to someone else, and I think it kills me mor to not have her in my arms to hold.<p>Oh how I wish I would hav found this site a year and a half ago, and how I wish I would have payed more attention to her and really "listened" to her, maybe this all could have been avoided.<p>and now, I may lose it all, My M and my Beautiful Wife.<p>But, I still have you all, and I have me to work on, I must become a "better" person, if not for her, than for myself and my future, whatever it may hold.<p>Talk about extremes, negative to positive, but I guess thats what its all about. out with the bad in with the good.<p>Thank you for letting me "vent".<p>God Bless.