<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Torizo:
<strong>
In my opinion, I think W will end M even if she's not happy with OM, based on :
1) She feels guilty, because OM moved here from NY to be with her, if she/they break up, he will have nowhere to go, and she feels bad for that. 2) I think she is just looking for an excuse to leave me, because she thinks I can't change, even though I have, and other people around me have noticed.<p>I could be wrong, and we all know I'm no expert at this, but it's how I feel, and what I think.
Imput on this? Am I thinking correctly?, or do I just see the downside to this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just stay w/ your changes they are good changes and even looking more to improve it. I don't think W will end M if A dies unless ... you are preceived not ready by her. That is why plan B is the last resort. Only you are absolutly sure that your changes had been accepted and W still waffle.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Right now W and OM are living "on the house" W cooks, cleans and babysits for "room and board", Her friend is willingly giving the A "room to survive", Only if, and when W and OM get their "own place" can the affair die. I think while they are living "carefree" the A will continue</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do you ever talk to her freind ? She might not be able to write off their support for A [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Promise me if you get the job on Thursday, go and see Vanilla Ice or go to Hall of Fame. Get out of the house !!!. Too bad Browns's season ends early, no more dog pounds.

Redhat,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Just stay w/ your changes they are good changes and even looking more to improve it. I don't think W will end M if A dies unless ... you are preceived not ready by her. That is why plan B is the last resort. Only you are absolutly sure that your changes had been accepted and W still waffle. <hr></blockquote><p>I am going to continue to improve myself, I will not be the old me any longer, I can't go back to the "old me". <p>But now, I think I F#$@ed myself, If plan B is after W accepts changes, (Which she hasn't) and I already gave her plan B letter, then I have pretty much dug the grave for my M, Right? I mean...there is no way to "reverse" plan B, so... What do I do? or is it too late?<p>Is there still a chance to save this? or is it over by my hands?<p>All I wanted was a happy marriage, thats all I ever wanted...now...it feels like the dream is gone... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] She can't see the changes, because she to "into" OM, and D is somewhere in her mind. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Do you ever talk to her freind ? <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, but she is trying to stay out of this, and won't say a thing to me about what they do, or even her opinion to this. She just tells me "it is not my(her) place to say anything". But she is "loyal" to my W, and therefor Won't say a word about any of this.<p>I was thinking about things W has said to me throughout our R/M and I remember her saying once "no matter how hard you try to get rid of me, You are stuck with me forever"... Seems forever isn't as long as it should be...<p>[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Torizo,
There are many BS send plan B letter but retracted later. What you want to do is cool it for now, get the job and have some fun out side the house. She is bound to contact you for something and by then you decide if you want to keep the contact and keep plan A'ng or stick onto plan B.<p>Meanwhile ... keep looking nice, concentrate on your job, you could plan A'ng her from far, as long the news of your changes comes to your WW, it is working. Having "fun" minus your WW but don't get carry away w/ new R.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She is bound to contact you for something and by then you decide if you want to keep the contact and keep plan A'ng or stick onto plan B. <hr></blockquote><p>The only reason she would contact me now is : She changed her mind (Very unlikely), She has filed papers(Unlikely @ this point), Or to make sure I'm still living(A week or so, maybe two).<p>I want to keep contact with her, but it seems like she has "better" things to do than talk to me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Meanwhile ... keep looking nice, concentrate on your job, you could plan A'ng her from far, as long the news of your changes comes to your WW, it is working. <hr></blockquote><p>50 miles away and no mutual "friends" that see or talk to me. Kind of hard for her to notice changes. Isn't it?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Having "fun" minus your WW but don't get carry away w/ new R.
<hr></blockquote><p>Can you clarify this for me? When "fun" and R are in the same sentence, that could mean ALOT of things.(From my viewpoint)(Assuming R = Relationship)<p>Current feeling: [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and blue, thinking about it could really be over, and I have tried so hard, but she can't see it...I ask myself why not? and there is no answer.

Torizo,
Yes, R as in relationship. Watch out for those.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Current feeling: [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] and blue, thinking about it could really be over, and I have tried so hard, but she can't see it...I ask myself why not? and there is no answer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is an answer to that ... in the fog. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . Take it a an early spring break on your M ... now, you have to go out from the house. Cavalier is still in there ?.

Not even close to looking for / or wanting anything to do with a relationship, I only want my W back. I don't even think I could put myself in a position where there is a potential of meeting someone.(hence, going to movies.)<p>Tomorrow, I will go and see vanilla sky, I'll tell you what I think about it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Take it a an early spring break on your M ... now, you have to go out from the house. Cavalier is still in there ?. <hr></blockquote> <p>Not a big sports fan I'm afraid. I like movies, pool sometimes, going out to eat, and the outdoors, hiking, camping ect. (Ironically my W has the exact interests and a couple others) yet she says we are "incompatable", I don't see how. (Basing this on she and I filled out RC Questionairre, and we like the same things.)<p>Maybe I'm trying too hard??? Should I just live life like W is not there essentially? Hmmm.....<p>[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Hi T,<p>For now probably that would be best. Live your life as if she is not there because she is not. It reduces some of that pain. See anticipation can be painful. However if you plan for the worst then you are already ready for something better. Does this vensuain logic make sense? <p>When I finally resolved to stop thinking too much about what OW and H were up to, I started to feel better. What helped me get there? Posting and reading here, working, being with my son, dealing with reality (bills, cleaning, etc.), checking out about divorce, separation, etc. Even started a home business but it got shot down at work (conflict of interest thingy, still a good idea though) hm..... oh well. Kept a journal and woke up to reality when I saw all that I was going through. Oh yea, can't forget about those George Clooney and Tom Cruise dreams!!! You guys might not understand that but in those dreams (nothing rated happened - LOL!! ) I learned that I could interact well with others and had the qualities to develop a good relationship if I wanted. It gave me some inner confidence that I was sorely lacking. Kinda like RH's BE experience but not as 'dangerous. After all it was just a dream.....<p>The point to this ramble is to keep busy. That maid stuff will get old. Besides if the OM is not working, who is he pleasing that would pay his way? I mean if the 'friend' that is paying the WS for stuff must have a lot to hand out?!?!? I have a hard time getting my 1 kid what he wants much less a grown woman and a bum OM. <p>JMHO,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Does this vensuain logic make sense? <hr></blockquote><p>Clear as mud. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I mean if the 'friend' that is paying the WS for stuff must have a lot to hand out?!?!? <hr></blockquote><p>Which I don't understand myself, how they are living there and no $$$ problems. In the house where W and OM are staying, There is : Her friend F/30someting Friends BF/30Something 3 kids ages 2-12 My W and OM all in a 3 bedroom 1/2 house. So, unless W has been lying(which is a possibility)about OM having a job, I don't see how it's possible. But then again who am I to judge...<p>I wonder if OM got his job @ the truck stop? He was supposed to find out on monday. After OM and W get $$$ saved, she said she wants to get a place with him, She told me this awhile ago. It must be nice that people can be so heartless, and so self-centered that they can just "leave" whomever they are with, married or otherwise, and just go off with, and do whatever with, whoever they choose. I could never in a million years do to anybody, what my W has done to me. I guess I was brought up better than that, I respect the person I'm with enough to try to fix things, where now I see the respect is not mutual.<p>How do you trust someone, after this? I mean, if W came home, there would definately be a trust issue for a LONG time. And the more I think of the things she has said since this started, the less I believe we will ever work this out.<p>I have accepted that she is never going to leave him, and have accepted that our M is over. It does not mean that I will stop fighting for it, But it does mean, a bit of peace for me. I can (regardless of what happens now) look back in 10 years and see I have tried my hardest to save something I believed in, even though it was a one sided belief.<p>I think I have coined a "new" term, This is my day of acceptance.<p>Thank you all, for getting me to this point, Life continues on...<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Torizo,
The more I read it the more I think you should kick back and watch them eat each other.<p>3 bedroom 1/2 bath for 4 adults and 3 kids (2-12) (two families) kind of crowded isn't it ?. How many month now ... hmmm 11/01 - 1/02 ... they are still in honeymoon, just about 6 weeks. I wonder what kind of freind let their soon to be teenage to see all of this ?. Where is sing when we need her, my Fairie LB.<p>Truck stop job ?, I assume you are in data processing ... $$ will still be an issues even he got the job.<p>Hey, A is like that ring, THE ONE RING THAT RULE THEM ALL [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Once you put it on, it will consume you all out. No one could help them out but them self to take the ring off. Yes, it is selfishness and let them consume their A too.<p>How do you trust someone, after this? I mean, if W came home, there would definately be a trust issue for a LONG time. And the more I think of the things she has said since this started, the less I believe we will ever work this out.
Staying in love is intentional. When A dies and 4 rules are abide the feeling will be back. Yes, there is be a lot of work on the recovery but you do it together ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am still waiting for Vanilla Sky's review [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I wonder what kind of freind let their soon to be teenage to see all of this ?. <hr></blockquote><p>Her friends kids, do whatever they want, (IMHO) They were raised poorly. and now they all (kids are learning from bad parental examples) sit around and get high, W used to do it occasionally for stomach problems (Doctors haven't been able to pinpoint problem) and I have no issue with it ( I do not get high, nor do I even smoke) But now I'm sure it's all they do, get high for fun(Adding to the fog "literally" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Truck stop job ?, I assume you are in data processing ... $$ will still be an issues even he got the job. <hr></blockquote><p>Yeah The truck stop pays 7.50-8.50 Hr. You can not make a living on that, I know for a fact, Unless she goes and gets a job, then they could. But that means W WOULD have to work, which she didn't have to around here.<p>As for me, Last job was ATM Technician, And I have previous jobs in : Computers, sales, management, warehouse, auditing, & food processing. So My skills allow me to have a few positions readily available. The job I find out about on Thursday is Sales/Recruiting, I hope I get it for the $$$, but if not, there are other jobs I can take, less $$$ though.<p>Money has never been an issue, When we met I was cashier @ a gas station, she was too, then over the course of the 3 years I was there I became Asst. manager, and ever since I have been looking for jobs that pay more and more, At the last job, I made enough that she could stay at home(Which is one of the factors contributing to A), and I look back and see, W has no "real" goals in life. <p>I know where I want to go, I want a house(Nothing fancy), I like the car I have, maybe go back to school at some point and get a B.A. in computer science, have a family, and enjoy life. W said she liked those goals as well, but never did anything to try to achieve them.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Hey, A is like that ring, THE ONE RING THAT RULE THEM ALL . Once you put it on, it will consume you all out. No one could help them out but them self to take the ring off. Yes, it is selfishness and let them consume their A too.<hr></blockquote><p>Actually, the ring's power will start to consume you even if you don't put it on, Look at poor Gollum in LotR, it consumed him, and as far as I know gollum has never put it on. The ring has it's own will, it chooses someone, and forever changes them. Like for example Bilbo, later in the movie Frodo just show Bilbo the ring and instantly he Wants it.<p>The ring indeed has many many similarities to A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Staying in love is intentional. When A dies and 4 rules are abide the feeling will be back. Yes, there is be a lot of work on the recovery but you do it together ... <hr></blockquote><p>But it only works if BOTH parties are involved, and I can't see her involved. It makes me wonder if our R/M was a mistake. My fear is : (based on her history coming from an abusive relationship) I was the first "nice" guy to show her attention and love, and that is why we got together. What if it is exactly that reason she stayed with me? and now she has had her "fill" and is "moving on". That is my worst fear through all this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am still waiting for Vanilla Sky's review <hr></blockquote><p>Going @ 4:00pm my time(1:00pm Yours) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Not to get away from the Vanilla Sky review, but a thought/memory crossed my mind today, I was just sitting her letting my mind wander, and I thought of when me and my W first got married, we came home and about 2-3 months after we were married she accidentally knocked over one of our "wedding night" wine glasses, she was so overcome with sadness when it broke, You know the sentimental value, she literally fell into my arms and started crying about it, it took 20-30 minutes to stop her from crying. Well, It brought a tear to my eye today. God, I miss my wife at that time, so caring, so loving, I'm sorry I didn't listen to you...I'm sorry I wasn't "there" for you emotionally...I just want another chance...and you won't let me have it...<p>I'm sorry guys, I get moments like that all the time, I have decided this to be my journal, as I have told everything already, my innermost thoughts and feelings. It's all here.<p>Redhat,
My Vanilla Sky review :To sum it up : A Fantasy Gone Wrong...<p>A bit strange, You have to REALLY pay attention to it all for it to make sense. It's kind of like the fog, strange, and full of surprises.<p>The movie, describes/acts out, the basis for an A perfectly. Fantasy vs. Reality.<p>Personally, I won't be standing in line to see it again. But I would recommend going to see it for yourself, as we all have different views about things.<p>
BTW-Bought LoveBusters today, @ a used bookstore near me, only $5.98 not a bad deal. I am working on me more and more each day. No contact with W since Sunday, Not really expecting her to call anytime soon, and if she does, I don't even know what to say to her.<p>Today's Mood : Peaceful.

Torizo,<p>Thanks for the review, I will see it tommorow night and let my WW baby sit 2 D. I used to see 4-5 movies in the row when I was young. I will let you know what I think of it.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> .. on me more and more each day. No contact with W since Sunday, Not really expecting her to call anytime soon, and if she does, I don't even know what to say to her.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You better think about it. Plan A or plan B !!!. Plan B will let her leave message and don't even pick up the phone. Unless is about financial or legal issues, never answer back.

Vanilla Sky? Sounds like a hard movie to see. I watched 'presumed innocent' a few nights ago. Ooohhh.... all Ws' should watch that one!!!! <p>Redhat... you want to go see that movie? Too much stuff related to psyco vensuians!!! How about Spy Games? Sounds more fun! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>T,
Let me know what you think about that book. <p>Take Care,
L.

Redhat,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You better think about it. Plan A or plan B !!!. Plan B will let her leave message and don't even pick up the phone. Unless is about financial or legal issues, never answer back. <hr></blockquote><p>We have no financial issues, and no legal issues as of yet, as she can't file until Feb. 19th @ the earliest. So, We have nothing to talk about, unless it's her coming home, because her and OM "broke up". So, I guess she can talk to voice mail.<p>Orchid,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Let me know what you think about that book. <hr></blockquote><p>I'll be reading it today, I should finish it by tonight.<p>
Nothing new to report at this time,how about you all?

Orchid,
I watched already Spy Game, like it and cry at the end of the movie ... [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] it is hard when you are in an emotional flux. I think I will like Vanilla Sky too.<p>Torizo,
Nothing new about WW. She dropped by yesterday noon, droppped the laundry, needed to use computer to print out some material for the class and run out of paper (she printed two set and you know who the other set is for). I saw she is wearing the pearl w/ a dotted diamond earing ring that I gave her for Christmas but she is wearing a "Miriam" pendant. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] OM ! ,I never bought her one and she never tell me she bought one. Mowing both grass I presume. I have truhart's morning to all post on the bar, don't know if she read it. I gave her a kiss on the lip and thanked her for the laundry (I do it anyway w/o her but this is plan A) and left to get & fix my other car's side mirror. She agrees to take care of the kid on Feb 1-3, I will be in the men's Church retreat. I told her that I will change my telecomute day from Mon&Wed to Mon&Thru. My reasoning is that I do not want to count on her to help me on either Thursday. (it is not LB'ed, I just stated the fact and also it is FYI)
I call BIL on Monday. He is coming here possibly w/ FIL to visit on Feb. Both of them told me that if we Dv, she will be suffering. They are actually affraid that I am Dv her but they understand it. I told them they are always welcome but I do not expect help and I do not interfere w/ their family bussines.
I talk to attorney. When I explain the situation, he was dazzled by it and let him know if I get tired of WW's act and want to file Dv. I got the info I want. If I want sole child custody it will be a bloody war. I have some ground to stand on but I have to be mean. Her disapearing act, subpena OM & get my 2 D too (she tried to stop my D to call me on several occations, she missed some crucial dental & eyes appointment for my 2 D), BIL & FIL willing to testify on my behalf to get sole custody, they are absolutly against my WW to have them. Filing police report (see my post on WW's AWOL), is useless unless I am ready to go to war, her acts is just trying to push my hot botton. I have enough people to back up my words, specially my 2 D itself !!!!.<p>I am really hanging in here. I have to replace one windows and looking at the leak on the roof (handyman), adding more activity for my 2 D (awana & cheerleader - single dad), and bringing the bacon home for her A ... she cominggles the groceries $$ with her pocket money for staying out there. When I am ready with plan B, I will really rock her up. I will plan C if this M is over. I want somebody that I love by my side on my 40' birthday this year, w/ or w/o her, and burried this memory.

Wow, I'm sorry for the pain, but it looks like you are dealing with it well. I'm glad that if it comes to it, you can get custody of children.<p>Not much here, Still putting all efforts into finding a job, I called that company today, and Person, said the person I need to talk to is out with a client, and would call me back, that was four hours ago. I'll call him back in the morning if I don't hear from him today. Still hoping I get this one.<p>other than that, Four days now, since talking to W, Guess she don't care what happens on planet earth.(Space aliens in the fog reference) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, it's her loss. I finished Lovebusters today, It was a bit "eye opening", The only LB I am guilty of(when we were together) was angry outbursts, but now I have learned HOW to control them. No way to show W though. Just like no way to meet wife's ENs. Hoping OM doesn't either.<p>I have accepted the fact, that she more than likely will not be returning home, It hurts, but I have realized it's the truth, and have accepted it. However, if she does want to return home which I seriousely doubt at this point, then we will discuss it at that time. I am no longer worried about it or her right now. If I don't get my life "on track" then there is no reason to worry about hers.<p>Curiosity Compels me to ask: what is Plan C?<p>Mood : [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Plan C ... run and never look back. Plan B and w/o any contact forever ...<p>I saw Vannilla Sky ... boy there are so much fogese talk !!!. I don't like it that much, too painfull to watch. I should go to action movies instead. I will try to quote some of their words.<p>Any other movies you plan to watch ?. I want to rent Committed, someone on GQII recommend it ... I know I should stay away from it but I am curious.

Plan C. Run and never look back. Now that is a plan. lol<p>As for movies, Committed looks good, and I want to see Brotherhood of the wolf, looks really interesting.<p>Job update: Talked to that company today, still interviewing, they will call me back next week(In short, I probably don't have it, Damn...).<p>W update: 5 Days, no contact from her. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Guess the fog has her good.<p>Bought a new book, How to write a love letter that works, was reading chapter titles, and it sounded interesting. one is titled : Let's try again, Debating on sending W a letter. Conflicting opinion in my mind,(Chance to help situation, but conflicts with MB principles).<p>The letter I'm considering sending to her:<p>Dearest Christi,<p> I thought of calling. Got as far as picking up the phone and dialing the number. It rang once, but I got scared and hung up. Anyway, it was me.
I wasn’t really sure what to say. The breakup came so fast that, even though I’ve had a lot of time to think about it, I’m not really sure what happened. We’ve had other arguments before and gotten over them. But not this time. One moment together, the next apart. Nothing. All over.
Yet when I look back on the time we spent together, things seemed so perfect. We were so happy. Remember how people used to see us walk down the street holding hands and would smile at us? Our happiness made them happy. I don’t understand how so much love could evaporate; how two people who were always telling each other how much they cared suddenly stopped caring.
I don’t think we have stopped. I know I haven’t. I miss you almost every moment, and when I don’t miss you it’s because I pretend you’re with me and I talk to you. That’s true. You know, every night when I get into bed I tell you about my whole day-just the way I used to when we’d call each other late at night.
Of course, now you’re not there to advise and guide me. And I can’t comfort you the way I used to when things went wrong. And going to sleep isn’t as tough as getting up. I used to bounce out of bed, looking forward to each day. I knew that sometime during the day we’d talk or see each other and, no matter what kind of day it had been, it would wind up a great day-a beautiful day. Now it seems to rain all the time. The whole climate of my life has changed.
I keep asking myself when the clouds started to roll in. When did the chilly winds begin to blow?
For my part, it must have been when I started taking us for granted. I figured you’d just always be there. I stopped working at “us”.
I have paid a severe price for my indifference. Loneliness is a disease and I am sick without you. Nor do I confuse lonely with being alone. There have been so many times since we parted when I have been surrounded by others and still felt lonely because you weren’t there.
Losing you was like experiencing a death, and experiences like that change oneself. Words like “communication” and “commitment” words that were important to you are now equally important to me.
I want you to know that all the dreams we had I still dream. All the plans we made, I still want to make come true. Those dreams, those plans-they belong to us and no one else in the entire world. They were part of who we were and who I want us to be once more.
I’d like us to try again, not just to recapture what we had; rather, to build upon it.
I still believe in you. I still believe in us.
In a few days, I am going to try to gather enough courage to call again. This time I’ll let the phone ring until you answer it, because this time I know what I’ll say when you do:
I still love you. <p> Sincerely,<p>What do you all think, Should I send it, Or not?
I ask because my heart says send it, however my brain lies with the MB principles.<p>Did laundry today, shopping, lots of running around, still job hunting. Going to a friends house later, just to get out. Really, it's pretty uneventful. How about your day?<p>[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Torizo ]</p>

Torizo,
I try to hold your horses (rev's terminology from the farm) but you go ahead and send plan B letter. Now you are waffling yourself. Let it go for now ! And go to see the Brotherhoods of wolf. Let it be there for few more days, hang in there. Write your love letter evryday if you have to but don't send it yet.

Torizo,
I try to hold your horses (rev's terminology from the farm) but you go ahead and send plan B letter. Now you are waffling yourself. Let it go for now ! And go to see the Brotherhoods of wolf. Let it be there for few more days, hang in there. Write your love letter evryday if you have to but don't send it yet.