You are on the right track, I will come back to it but I have not time until much later today.
SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Orchid said:
I mean how many of us can say that when our Ws' left we went swimming with sharks?!?!?! U really have to give yourself more credit than you have been.

Your current frustration and moments of anxiety are normal. Part of the healing process. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is right, look back and see how far you have come, and BE HAPPY ABOUT IT ! LOL.

It's hard though, it's hard. Very easy to say "don't think about it."
I have a challenge for you that goes with this, but I'll save it for the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, my bellydance classes finished this week for a few weeks. I would like to go see him at his home once a week during the week while they're not on, but I'm scared of being rejected, of him saying no, because it will hurt, but then if I just add something into a conversation, he won't get it (if I don't spell it out), so it means a risk. Other things to ask him for are less risky, so I'm happy to do them, am I getting this SS, if this what your talking about - asking him to fulfill my needs and if he's willing it may mean we are heading towards recovery? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is exactly right. But don't pin all your hopes on one thing, and approach it in a different way.
Have you tried it like this? H, this has been a hard road for both of us, and I am struggling to keep going, will you:
Give me a kiss tonight
Let me come and see you a night a week.
Make love to me
( Well, this is just to illustrate, you need to fill in the blanks with what you need/ want/ think he will go for. )

Make a big list, what you need, and another, what you think it would be wise to start with, based on how things are going that night/ that week. Don't be afraid, treat it as a game. If he says no, say thanks for considering it. Then smile and think of what you will try next. Remember when you dated, and were out to catch a man. See if you can catch him. See if he will help you do it - by giving you permission for a two way meeting of needs. ( it will meet his too, don't kid yourself it's all for you.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ALso, maybe the thing about the definition of being 'there' yet. Maybe I'm narrowing my definition of a relationship too much at this point, excluding the possibility that right now it is a relationship even though its not the picture I have in my head of how it should be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he believes you are in a relationship. He is seeing you again. That's a start - for him. For you, it won't be real until he says he wants to move back in with you. I really believe he thinks you are on the road back together. I hope he doesn't keep on so slow.

My challenge is this: Every time you start to play the "what if" game, do it positively. Instead of "what if I ask him to kiss me and he says no?" Add on the end, " and what if he says " Kiss? You are the prettiest girl in the world, I'll kiss you as much as I can get away with."

For every negative, you have to think of a positive too. Think of it as balance.

I look forward to see what you come up with for this weekend. I can see good signs. You already know their will be small speed bumps, find a positive for every negative.

SS

<small>[ June 28, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

What's up Seahorse ... I saw your reply to BR. Anything new this weekend ?. -RH-

I've been reading the post again, but its not getting in at the moment. Its two months since mum died today, and I did not expect that I would be in such a state. Something has taken over me and I'm working on Autopilot. I've spent most of the day crying with grief. Grief for mum, grief for H. Its been very hard and I'm doing my best just to ride through it.

Saw H yesterday, he came out to see me. We spent lunch together at a cafe and went home for a while. When we kiss, there is no real return on his part. I feel like I'm kissing a manequin and it hurts. WE had no discussions about the relationship and he was very foggy, saying cutting things again and doing things to get a rise from me.

I asked him if I could see him during hte week while classes were finished, but didn't really get a warm response. I told him that he did'nt have to, and I won't throw myself down screaming if he says no, of course, he said that that's what I used to do. It was comments like this every now and then. I am assuming it means he has contact with her again or the grip has got strong again. Its the same kind of carry on.

He said maybe in a week or so come out. He said he was busy today, blah blah, but I felt like he was hiding something. I often feel this way when I'm with him.

I have come back after a few hours - could he be afraid of me, of what I could do to him as Oaktown's H is, if he get close to me again.

Seahorse,

It is hard when you need somebody to lean on and the very person that you long for is not available. Stay strong, your H is not there yet. IMVHO, you should set your expectation of H as a close freind that you need to talk to not to get emotional support at all. You should look after yourself now and it might even mean to stay away from H for a while. Think about it.

Actually my WW's plan B is the best thing that she ever has done to me after A. I don't have no contact and have to use lawyers to talk. Now I am ready to treat her like another freind but she is not. She is still in blaming game and every other sentence she point finger at me. I just walk away and never bothers to approach her again. -RH-

I'm at work, so I'll make it a quick reply, and come back later. I'm much better today after crying for most of yesterday - now I have to drink twice my quota of water to replenish!

Yes Redhat, I've been quite unhappy and I suddenly realised it was because I started to shift the focus on what H wants and not me. I will continue to work on M, but I have to remember that not looking after myself and my interests is part of what got me here. I probably won't see him for a while now, and actually it will be good to recharge and refocus on me just for a little. It can also give me time to ponder SS' suggestions (I'm coming back to those).

I also had a bit of a read about control again as I can feel that creeping back into the situation, so I'm trying to back off again and concentrate on living and forget about the things H does when I'm not around and what he dosen't want to tell me.

Just a quick note about something though, he emailed me early this morning at work. I didn't reply as I've got a backlog of work. By the end of lunch he rang me here to check why I hadn't responded (he thought I might be ill and at home). I thought that was quite interesting really, although now I feel guilty because I didn't make it a priority. Fair dinkum, what's a BS to do with all these emotions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi, Liz,
I talk positive, because we have to do it that way. The negitive comes by itself.

We don't know the outcome yet for you. We just don't. It is almost impossible to look at the big picture when we have bad experiances. I can't do it always either, but I try, and am getting better. That's all you can do, try your best. That's what we expect from you.

I am sorry the kiss is not where it needs to be. I think back about W and I early on. It was the same for us. I can't think when it changed, but it did. The old magic is back - actually it's better somehow. I can't explain it, but it is. There is more love now, more understanding. It's like after going through the fire, we connect on a better and higher level. I don't worry or wonder any more what is going on, I know we are OK.

I hope to see you in the same place a year from now. But for now, just ride it out. It may be that all the bad things are true, could be. But I just don't think it is so. Perhaps some are, but not all. There is some good going on between you.

He has to make some decisions, true. But more and more of them look to be positive ( when looking long term.) So, just keep going, lets go another week. Yes, focus on you most of the time. You can't afford the negitive "what if" game, it tears you apart.

Liz, you are strong enough, you don't have to wonder about that too. You will make it OK. Have some faith in yourself. I believe that next time you pray you will at least feel a calm peaceful feeling so that you know that God cares. For now, that may be enough. He is working on it, don't think otherwise.

We're all here too, we won't go away. Smile again, there, that's better. See you around.
SS

OK SS I've been reading again and picked up a couple other things. Here goes:

My H may be scared of me (emotionally), as I said earlier.

I could look at the 'what's the worst that can happen' view. I think you are right too, I am prone to negative thinking and must catch myself doing it and replace it with postitive thoughts. Challenge it and become stronger.

I haven't properly recognized the needs that my H has meet for me and reinforced it.

Maybe I could find out how he sees our relationship developing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other thing, that took me years to honestly face, is that I always assumed that my H's "way" was the "right" way to approach just about anything because he was rational, factual and absolutely dispassionately sure he was always right. To the point I gave up having an opinion. Don't do this. You always have an opinion about what YOU want and what YOU need. These are not the only things your M needs to address, but they must be included. You know this. So don't just hand this over to your H and say I tried, I give up, you do it. You just started. You opened the dialog. Now hear his side and start re-building something you both want.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is me. I was exactly like this. Maybe I could take this and put it away for the right time too. I have to be strong and confident in my life for me as well as to attract him.

So how am I going. The big picture is I would like to be in a loving relationship where we meet each other needs and are happy. Were we will both work together and communicate to reach an intimacy deeper than before. Whether this is with my H or not - well only time will tell. I hope and pray it is with him, if not, God give me the strength to get through this.

******

I thought about the taking stock thing that Orchid suggested too. Here is my list:

I've gone to movies, cafes, shops, a pop concert and a holiday by myself and survived. Me, all alone, by myself!

I gained my divers cert.

I swam with sharks - twice.

I truly understand what the term 'a friend in need is a friend indeed' means.

I lost my mum but gained memories of our relationship before the dementia and parkinson's took over.

My relationship with my dad has gone to a new level.

I nearly have my learners motorbike licence.

I have a part time job in promotions - something I would have been too scared to do, and a new found confidence in general.

I know I can look after myself.

I can turn a queensized mattress by myself, even though I've lost a lot of weight.

I can nearly bellydance and laugh at myself doing it.

I can read and follow car maps.

Asking for help is not as scary as I thought.

I've found out that sex is quite fun.

I've identified some things that were not good in our marriage.

I've admitted I was wrong and taken stock of how I contributed to this mess.

I'm learning to let go of control.

There, thats a pretty good list, and I could probably add more if I thought about it.

Anyway I'm signing off now. SS I really appreciate your replies they make me think. I will get there I promise.

I just reread your posting and I will make the needs list, that's a good idea actually. I can already think of a few and a massage is right there at the top!! But again, slowly does it, and not this week, its been too emotional.

RH I'm sorry to hear about your wife. one day she will wake up, and if she dosen't well....You daughters are very lucky to have you.

I have always been impressed with the reserves of strength you have. When you think everything is gone, you always manage to find some more and come back even stronger. Thats what it takes. That's why I believe you will be OK.

Way to go girl, way to go.

SS

Seahorse,

You have came a long way girl ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . It is the best situation for BS to be in ... from outside looking into the fog and not get suck into it. I hope your H will realize it soon before you run out of gas.

Any plan to come to Bali ? ... I will visit my country next year and I will visit Bali as part of my visit. Couldn't wait to swim at Legian or Kuta beach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -RH-

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Hi all, compiling lots of lists and doing lots of reading and redirecting my thoughts away from H & OW and other non-helpful stuff.

RH - I would love to go to Bali, never been, but so many Aussies have! I believe its great diving there. I would like to see the island of Lombok and how they make the pots there.

Planning a dive for this weekend if the seas are good. Really need it right now.

I have asked H if he will have dinner or lunch with me in the next week SS, I am scared of being rejected again. I hope he says yes, I hope he replies because he's getting into the habit of ignoring my requests (the counselling, meeting during the week, etc). the 'love H' has gone from his emails again. That also hurts.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Perhaps he is overloaded - to much, to soon. You can always back off for a little while. I wish he knew what he was doing, but he doesn't.

Are you coming on to strong, or is it just him? Or can you tell? I hope he answers too, not answering is disrespectful, and probably bad. Is he even there? Perhaps computer down? Could there be any reason you can think of? Roommate deleteing his mail?

BTW, if he is afraid, not answering means no. It depends on his personality type. Is he a conflict avoider? Is this his way of not wanting to tell you no? Can you communicate to him that you need an answer and communication, and that it is OK for him to say no. Is this part of the problem long term between the two of you? Take another look at some of this stuff and see if you can learn anything about him, and you, that you can fix or change to make it work better. Can you ask him to communicate? Use the $ex conversation as an example of how badly it can go bad if not discussed? Send a short note explaining why you want to communicate? Tell him you want to talk then you will back off?

You know what will work best, see what you can do.

Hey, don't go there with the negative thougts. Just let them go, Oh, what to say to help.

Frustration for you....

I hope he catches on soon.

You had better pray again, its the only thing that ever really works. Just do the best you can. Try to be positive.

SS

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS, He did reply with a yes, but not dinner said he is too busy at night-my gut says it bullsh$t. He says there is a lot going on in his mind at the moment he is confused.

I think I know when things took a downturn. During lunch last week I pointed out that he was not very creative in sex and that he would have to make changes too. He dosen't like making changes, ever, he has always said in our marriage that he is the way he is and can't change (this is for everything).

I looked back at another phone bill I had from him in may. I noted another number that appeared on it a lot at night and on weekends. I rang it and it is a girl he works with. Another one. Its possible that he is having multiple affairs. Actually it is not the first time. A few years ago I caught him on the chat lines with a woman and he ended it.

SS, he is a conflict avoider and uses silence as a no. I know I am partly responsible for this as I would get angry. I should not have done it, I am committed to not doing, I cannot change the past. I have said to him he can say no to me, I have said that I will not get angry.

Could we please have a discussion about plan B? I really think that maybe it would be the healthiest thing for me to do that very soon, to at least get ready for it. I am getting strong feelings to protect myself. To be independent. To be ready. Although it scares me I don't know what else to do. I could live with one, even two OW, but just how many are there? I don't derserve this kind of disrepect. He won't talk to me much so I don't know for sure. Also, when he gets scared he goes foggy and possibly turns to OW. If he dosen't want to change, the relationship will go back to how it was, I need for him to make a couple of changes, he has to be willing to do that or it won't work for me. One is allowing me to be creative with sex, and possibly taking it out of his comfort zone.

I think I have hung in well, my deadline is 26th July, I set this long ago. I think I should stick to it.

What do you think?

I rang Harley's on the radio about two weeks ago. He suggested I do it at a time when plan A is very good. But now H is foggy again. So when do I do it? When things are good, you are tempted to keep going. I've more or less written the letter. Dad has OK'd me to move in with him if I need to. My job is stable. I am hurting. Even though he said yes to lunch I am hurting because there were conditions attached to it. I feel very unloved. I want someone who cares about me. I know I can't have that now, but at the very least I don't want someone who will hurt me.

Help, what do I do? am I reacting to hurt in the wrong way. I am being rational?

I am wondering if life would be better without him for a little while. Should I recharge for a week-have a mini plan B and then see how it goes. by this I mean don't contact him and see how I feel about it, but not give him the letter. I know plan B is drastic because once I'm in it there's no turning back. How do I know when the time is right?

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Seahorse,

The real diving site is around Flores Island ... but not for the faint heart. Close by is Komodo Island ... yes, Komodo !!!. A giant lizard that could swim, could stand up w/ two legs, could out run us and .... could climb !!!. Their lick is poisonous ... I might go there for diving, I have a local contact.

Switch subject, have you read Michele Weiner-Davis's - Divorce Busting ?. It is a narrow application of plan A. Try it ... it is doing 180 degrees on what you have been doing. Test it a bit and see if it is working then do it full blast. Let H chases you instead. Re-read also the link about a Venusian Lady, see if it is applied to your H. Most men, a dumb ones ... no disrespect to your H, need those treatment.

-RH-

Hi Redhat, I'd love to see a Komodo dragon - do you know who Steve Irwin is - he wresled one I think. We have monitor lizards in Oz.

I have read those links. I think I just need to give myself a little break. I think I'm in recovery and he isn't. I have to remember that. I don;t see him now till the 13th, so that will help me recharge. I really hope my dive goes ahead on Saturday and I'm doing a crisis telephone shift on Sunday.

Then a facial is planned for 3 weeks time, but I'm going to add a few things, to distract myself.

I'm getting ready to sell/move in about a month too, it scares me and I know I will miss this house - even if it is too big, gosh we lived here 8 years.

I'm gonna do a mini plan B/180 and not go out of my way to contact him. Hopefully by the next time I see him my thinking will be back on track.

Otherwise I start to worry people...

THe fact that I am selling my house hit me hard this morning. I have worked very hard to make it nice. Now its there and I have to sell it because my H is being selfish.

He says either way he will never come back there. Either way, I cannot look after it by myself.

I will get something better by the end of the year. I will find the perfect house - it will be close to where I work, I will be able to have my dog there and it will be spacious and modern and not cost me too much. I want it by the end of the year. If H wants to join me so be it.

When I was 18, I wrote a diary entry that outlined everything I wanted in a man. Then my H came along. The power of lists and wishes shouldn't be underestimated.

Hi Liz, I can see you would like to talk,
I think I will take this one line by line.

Thanks SS, He did reply with a yes, but not dinner said he is too busy at night-my gut says it bullsh$t. He says there is a lot going on in his mind at the moment he is confused.
I side with you on this one, think you are right. Sounds like he is backtracking for some reason. Confused? I bet he is, he has been for a long time. Question is, why the change, he was coming along.

I think I know when things took a downturn. During lunch last week I pointed out that he was not very creative in sex and that he would have to make changes too. He doesn't like making changes, ever, he has always said in our marriage that he is the way he is and can't change (this is for everything).
OK, that makes sense. You made a demand, he ran. I know people like this, they can change for the worse ( he leaves you) but they can't improve themselves. ( it takes work, help, help.)

I looked back at another phone bill I had from him in may. I noted another number that appeared on it a lot at night and on weekends. I rang it and it is a girl he works with. Another one. Its possible that he is having multiple affairs. Actually it is not the first time. A few years ago I caught him on the chat lines with a woman and he ended it.
I can't remember reading this before. ( about a few years ago.) I don't have a good reply for this one. I thought it was a one time thing. I used to think he was just weak, felt sorry for him. Now I am just angry. But that doesn't help you much. Lets go on . . . .

SS, he is a conflict avoided and uses silence as a no. I know I am partly responsible for this as I would get angry. I should not have done it, I am committed to not doing, I cannot change the past. I have said to him he can say no to me, I have said that I will not get angry.
Does he believe you yet? I mean, has he spoken with you enough, about things that would have set you off before, and have you been able to stay calm? Does he have any excuse? I have a hard time wanting to cut him any slack at all after looking at the length of his problems. But what do you think? I wasn't there for any of those conversations, past or present. You had better call this one.

Could we please have a discussion about plan B? I really think that maybe it would be the healthiest thing for me to do that very soon, to at least get ready for it. I am getting strong feelings to protect myself. To be independent. To be ready. Although it scares me I don't know what else to do.
You are trying hard to be brave, not be negative. We have perhaps said to much about it lately. It's probably time. I can hear the quiver in your voice. Don't take it so hard.

I could live with one, even two OW, but just how many are there? I don't deserve this kind of disrepect. He won't talk to me much so I don't know for sure. Also, when he gets scared he goes foggy and possibly turns to OW. You don't have to live with any OW. We both know that plan A is temporary. It can't last forever. If he can't/won't change, B is the next step. It looks like there is still OW from what you said in beginning. Looks like Cake Man. I didn't know these things, I say B.

If he doesn't want to change, the relationship will go back to how it was, I need for him to make a couple of changes, he has to be willing to do that or it won't work for me. One is allowing me to be creative with sex, and possibly taking it out of his comfort zone.
These are called boundaries, you have to have them in place to make it work. You are correct in your thinking as far as I can see. Someone that won't even discuss something can't do POJA. Without that, no recovery.

I think I have hung in well, my deadline is 26th July, I set this long ago. I think I should stick to it. What do you think? I rang Harley's on the radio about two weeks ago. He suggested I do it at a time when plan A is very good. But now H is foggy again. So when do I do it? When things are good, you are tempted to keep going. I've more or less written the letter.
Keep the deadline, it gives you time for the mini B for a few days, and to see what happens after that. Time to see if he will respond, if he thought it was too fast. Time to think about getting in a few more good plan A days at the end. Time to have another few talks if he can open up enough.

Dad has OK'd me to move in with him if I need to. My job is stable. I am hurting. Even though he said yes to lunch I am hurting because there were conditions attached to it. I feel very unloved. I want someone who cares about me. I know I can't have that now, but at the very least I don't want someone who will hurt me. I can't remember conditions? Did I miss something? In any case, you are right on all counts. You have very carefully thought things through, and are ready. I don't see what you could do any better right now.

Help, what do I do? Plan B
Am I reacting to hurt in the wrong way. No. With the additional facts before me, I say you are spot on.
I am being rational? Yes, you are. I am wondering how you do so well with all that hurt. Plan A has worked it's magic on you at least.

I am wondering if life would be better without him for a little while. Should I recharge for a week-have a mini plan B and then see how it goes. by this I mean don't contact him and see how I feel about it, but not give him the letter. I agree, also set up what you want to do the rest of the month until your deadline.

I know plan B is drastic because once I'm in it there's no turning back. How do I know when the time is right?
You have talked about it on and off for a few months. Unless you see signs of a major change, your own deadline sounds very good to me.

I'm getting ready to sell/move in about a month too, it scares me and I know I will miss this house - even if it is too big, gosh we lived here 8 years. These other things contribute to your fear. Change=fear to most of us.

I'm gonna do a mini plan B/180 and not go out of my way to contact him. Hopefully by the next time I see him my thinking will be back on track. Redhat gave good advice on this, but your thinking is already on track. If you had not gotten any feedback at all and gone with what you have suggested, you would be right there. I don't think you need us any more. But we'll stay around and see what happens anyway.

Otherwise I start to worry people... We worry all the time, no matter what you say. We just try not to show it sometimes so you will relax a little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Liz, none of us are professionals at this. We come and ask for help, we try to help each other. Steve and Jennifer are pretty good, but there is one that is even better. Kneel down and pray about this, lay it all out to him. If it is the right thing, you will feel positive about it, and calm. It will feel good to you, even though you may still fear. If it is the wrong thing, you will feel dark, negative, unsure. Then come back and tell us what you plan on doing. Don't doubt yourself. We all have faith in you, give us a little credit for knowing something. ( bet that one makes you squirm, doesn't it.)

You have heard from Redhat, I hope Orchid will come in on this one too, Wouldn't hurt at all.

But, after all is said, what I know is that you will be OK.
SS

I see I missed you while I was composing that long, long, document above.

The feelings you are having are natural. We all get a little wistful when thinking about major changes, even when we have someone to share it with. Don't think you are the only one.
Talk to Dad about your feelings, perhaps he can identify more than you think. At least you know he cares. Remember that we do too.

I may not post tomorow, I will try not to worry about you if you try not to worry about us worring about you worring??? Did I get that right? Oh well, something else to worry about.
SS

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS I have posted an SOS on GQII for some ideas on implementing it. I'm at work so I have to go. I will be back.

Hi Seahorse,

I have been following your story. How are you doing?