Hi again,
As I see you posting and wondering, I think back about how you have done since I started reading here. I have watched you make many hard choices and you seem to always do the best thing even if it is difficult. Not that you never make a mistake, but you always fix it quickly and go on. I believe in you, and think you will do well this time too. You even realized you were in over your head, and didn't want to make a really big mistake so you made an appointment with Steve.

You made some good points on J.R.'s thread, I can tell you are looking at all sides.

Once again, you are going about this in the right way, I believe you will be OK in the end. Liz, you can do this, you really can. Hold your head up high and act like the winner you are. We all love you.

SS

I dunno if this will be of any help, but over in GQII Steve Harley is couselling Going_crazy to Plan A even after a very bad setback. He's said that Plan B is risky where there are no children involved and one must Plan A for as long as possible in that situation. Seahorse, if you feel that you went to Plan B prematurely, the best thing to do is try to get in touch with SH or another MB counselor and ask, if he advises so, how you can get back to Plan A without loosing your credibility too much.

- Relate

<small>[ September 01, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Hi everyone, thanks for checking in on me. Yesterday was my 11th Wedding Anniversary. I survived the day by going to brunch with a friend (she really picks you up when your down) and bought myself a wetsuit for my upcoming trip.

So I finally spoke to Steve. I went briefly though the story and he asked various questions about why I was in B, what happened, etc, etc.

SH suggests that part of the reason H got 'scared' was because even though he wants to 'work on our M' and was meeting me, talking things through, etc, he couldn't see how it would work. Its as plain as day to me now. The situation we are in now is huge, without a good plan there's no way we can work on being married again - he got scared as working our way back from here seems impossible to him.

SH said that being in plan B is dangerous when there are no children involved - out of sight, out of mind. I noticed he said this to GoingCrazy too. He would like to discuss a way to work my way out of plan B for now.

So what he's asked me to do is to fill out the love busters questionnaire as my H would and send answers to him. Then I am to ring H and let him know I spoke to SH and that I'm working on me, whatever happens between us. I should also let him know that SH only has my side of the story and, to get a better perspective, would like to speak to H, and would H ring and speak to him, and also that SH has a plan that we can follow to help us fall in love and stay in love. Hopefully that will start some dialogue.

I'm going to ring H and ask him. I suspect he will say "I'll think about it" as he did the last time I suggested counselling, and if he does this I'm not to push. I hope he will, I will be disappointed if he doesn't. SH also said that if he dosen't to let him know and we will discuss what I should do after that.

I'm quite tired as I've been doing a lot of thinking and had a few late nights sorting all this out. Still I've got three days left of work and five days to go then I'm outta here and off to warmer waters.

Seahorse,
I am glad that you talked to SH. I hope your H do the right thing and willing to talk to SH ... You did the right thing to get SH's guidance to make sure you did your best you can. You definitly need to get SH's help to go back to plan A. Looking back, you needed to be in plan B to get yourself out from the worst time of your life, you were fighting two losses at the same time. Now you can refocus on M again.

-RH-

Just had another loss. Lost my digital camera, left it on the train on Friday night. I brought it to work to take some pictures of an award they had here. I thought I left it here, but now I'm here and its not. Its $800 worth and not covered under my insurance policy. I feel so **** because I use it a fair bit and I'm off on holidays this week...and I'll have to tell H about it.

Spoke to H re Steve, he said he could set up appt which actually was far more than I expected from him - I thought he would say "I'll think about it". Its a start.

We had a nice chat about how thing were going in general. All round it was nice. I didn't tell him about the camera. I'm still waiting for the rail to call me back, but somehow I don't think I will get it back. Dear God, what next!

<small>[ September 01, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Feeling pretty down and horrible right now. Getting through a few minutes at a time. Feel like screaming actually. Send my LB questionnaire off to SH. Does not make you feel good about yourself when you fill it out as your SO.

God, what a mess. What an awful bloody mess.

With any luck I just will not wake up tomorrow and I can have some peace. I'm in total overload.

Liz - excellent news!

About H's willingness to talk to Steve - not the camera thingy.

Some practical advice: arrange an appointment for your H at a time that corresponds to the start of Steve's day, 6:00 am central daylight time in the US. This way he'll be first on Steve's schedule and Steve won't be behind as he sometimes gets. This will avoid giving your H an excuse to not follow through if he rings Steve and he's not ready for him.

Dave

Seahorse,
I know exactly what you are going through. My wife has been running to her lover in the next state and spending as much time as she can with him. Sh says she is going to move in with him. That is her choice.
Her comings and goings have been very destructive for the children.
So, I have decided to protect my family and me with a Plan A and anxious for her to leave. Soon. There is no other alternative at the moment.And it is much better when she is gone.
I will DO NOTHING to contribute to her leaving. Everything I WILL DO will be for my boys and me.
I think that some of the advice Ihave read regarding your situation is right on the money.
I know it is painful, but now you have the opportunity to take control of your destiny.
Read MB and do a Plan A. FOR YOU !
And, do not sell the house or contribute to his leaving. Let him go figure it out. You take care of Seahorse.
I posted my situation Aug. 30,started Plan A and I am already starting to see results for myself and my boys. This was because two members gave it to me right between the eyes. And, I needed it.
Thank God for all the people on this site.
Just remember, we are your support group and we will be here for you. BE STRONG. Try to Smile.
You CAN do it !

Thanks Dave, H will be arranging appt for himself (I hope). Will wait to see what happens.

Gregg, I noticed you are new here. Can you give me some more info about yourself?

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Hi Seahorse,
You asked me to tell you a little more about my situatuion.First a litle background. My wife and I have been married nearly 15 years.
The first 3.5 years of our marriage were blissful and full of love. We had a baby son , Alex in 1987 and had been living in our dream house. My wife wanted to have a career like mine once Alex had some tme with Mom. About3.5 years. She took a job at a well known company locally. Our affection and EN's were fairly well met except sex. But, it seemed as tho there was always something more important to do besides spend some real quality time together. We managed some time ,but not nearly enough.This is when her first affair occurred with a married co-worker. As a note, my wife comes from a divorced home. Her father had cheated on her mother and evntually her mother left. She was 13 at the time. A time I feel she really needed to develop her relationship with her Mom. Instead, she lived with her Father and essentially took care of her two younger siblings. Apparantly her Father was demanding and critical of her. Her older sister went to live with her Mom.
In her junior year of high school she quit school and travelled around the country and settled in Fla. She gother GED and got a job as a bar manager at a well known C.C .
She met a man and lived with him for eight years and then was married to him for two.They divorced. She moved back to her hometown where I met her. She has always liked to drink. Her family gatherings are characterized as mini or full blown keg parties. Alchohol is always available.
All of my family noticed that she always had a drink in her hand at our gatherings and had a hard time putting it down. I had gently tried to get her to slow down. But, it continued , mostly as binges.
To add insult to injury she never wante to seek help with the affair she had.I begged her. I had managed after about ten months, to convince her to stop and she never had contact w/ OM since. The affair seemed to be characterized by going out and drinking and of course sex.
I received a promotion at work and had begun to travel frequently. She met a femle lesbian programmer at work who was having relationship troubles.She briefly moved in with us. This woman is a functonal alchoholic. Their relationship developed and I had found out that they would get drunk and have sex with each other. This went on fo about three years,on and off. My W felt that this was not cheating. But again alchohol was involved. In 1996 we had our second son. And then she was fired from her job after a six year tenure, promotions and raises. This really devastated her. There were no financial pressures and after she recovered from a deep depression, she became a stay-at -home Mom. She loved it and was quite content. But her low-selfesteem issues continued. And so did the drinking. I had often told her that I would love to make love more if she woould quit drinking. Its dificult for me (and I drink moderately)to make love to a person who is high.
We neve sought help for these ssues because she never wanted to get help. She thought she could figure it out on her own. I disagreed. But things got a little better. Then I started a new job and since 1997 hve moved the family from NJ to Pittsburgh, back to NJ and then to Chicago and now back to NJ. She always seemed to like the moving becuse for her it was always a new adventure and a "fresh start" for us. But, I had expained to her that we needed counseling. And she needed to quit drinking. While in Chicago, she made many new friends quickley. The girl next door and she bcame fast friends. This girl (Debbie) had a husband who was in AA for ten years. He and I talked and so did he and my wife. He and I both felt she neded help. She didn't seem to think so. She was a stay at home Mom, but was always saying to me that she felt like a burden to me. I never understood that feeling. I had a great job making great money, a great family, house. I finally felt we had it "all". And then I was laid-off in a reduction in force. She was heatbroken. She loved Chicago and did not want to leave.
You know thru all of her feelings of low self-esteem, I tried so hard to make her feel how much I loved her and meet er EN's. And she said "I know you love me, but you're not in-love with me". THIS always put me at a loss. This girl has her name etched in my soul.
I finally obtained a good job and we moved back to NJ.
She still continued to drink and re-contituted her relationship with her old lesbian g-friend. They would occasionally get together and drink and have sex.(They did this in Chi-town twice, on two visits she made to us.)
Finally, this past Summer, we had begun to really avoid each other. And she began to drink very heavily.
On July 4th she got so drunk she passsed out in the back yard. I couldn't take it anymore. Itook the boys out on our boatto see fireworks and left her there. She refused to co-operate.
The next weekend she bolted to Delaware to see her Mom. A Mom she had infrequent contact with but maintained a closeness. (My W was very close to my Mom) So close in fact, that she always said that my Mom was more like a real Mom to her than her own Mother.
She came back, and then the next weekend bolted in the middle of the night to Delaware.
When she got back she informed me that she had met someone and that she cared for him. He lives in a seaside trailer park, as does her Mom.
I said that maybe we needed to seek counseling. She has kown this guy for years. He is a friend of her Mothers and was divorced by his wife this past June.(WHY? He did not treat her very well)
All kinds of strange things and info. have been acquird since that time. I.E. - He is on his ex-wifes health insurance, and according to my wife lives in a trailer that needs to be cleaned and painted.
She wanted to take he boys there, ostensibly to visiit her Mom. I steadfastly refused to allow them to be put in that environment.
She has developed a new social group thru this guy and I know that ther has been a lot of drinking going on.
Now, as she has said for the past seven week she wants to spend time with him. She doesn't want to move -in to the current trailer and he has been attempting to find a new one for three weeks.
When I asked her why he ws having difficulty obtaining a new triler, she sad he wasn't sure if he wanted to pay cash or make payments to the trailer park owner with whom is apparantly g0od friends.
Then last week she said she called a dealership to find out how much her very expensive car was worth,
She has never worried about that sort of thing.I asked her if she was going to sell it for a trailer. She said no. ButI am suspicious.
Anyway, I have tried to PLan A her after unsuccesfuly informing her of the "big " mistake she might be making and all of the other disadvantges I see based on the info se has given me so far, not to metion the boys feelings. She admits she's scared of making a big mistke, but continues n with her addictio to this guy and lifestyle. And, she is always repeating to me in person or on the phone that she "thinks" she is going to move in with him. In the meantime, she leaves and rarely calls. She is seemingly unconcerned with these two beautiful boys she claims to love more than anything.
She also says she is giving notice to her job in two weeks. And she has no new job in Del. I told her that she should at least have a job when sh gets there. But, she seems unconcerned about that. This guy has a not so successful re-modeling business. He does most of his work there at the trailer park.
I could on about all of this but I m sure by now you get the picture. And by the way, I have not been faultless here either. Obviously, I have not met her EN's very well. It' been a vicious cycle.
This is so painful.
I am on Plan A, but am gettig prepared to Plan B here shortly. I do not want to contribute to her leaving. I love her vey much and would like to work things out, but I feel that I must let her go. I have also sought legal advice, but have not made a move, yet. So there you have it.
Probably more than you wanted to know but it is so intertwined. I almost feel like writing a book about it.
Thank you Seahorse, for your concern.The members, like you on this site, have made a very frightening experience easier with their support and ideas. And,I have learnt so much more about relationships. What was I thinking in the past?
Anyway, Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Gregg M.

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Gregg M. ]</small>

Hello Seahorse,
I am hearing some pretty negative things from you.

Feeling pretty down and horrible right now. Getting through a few minutes at a time. Feel like screaming actually. Send my LB questionnaire off to SH. Does not make you feel good about yourself when you fill it out as your SO, God, what a mess. What an awful bloody mess. With any luck I just will not wake up tomorrow and I can have some peace. I'm in total overload.

I wish today that I could help you to understand. This is more than about H and you. Your life is entwined now, with all of your friends here. We wish for the pain to end, but we would be in great pain ourselves if things were just to end and you were no longer here.

Why does it have to be this way?
I don't know why for you - right now today. I can tell you that all my pain and sorrows over all my life have worked out to be something that helped me later - and I can't say now that I am sorry for the bad. All these things have made me what I am. Now ( at 46 years old) It is easy to see the why of some of them. Others I still do not understand. I do have faith that God will some day take me out of this refiners fire and I will be finished and whole and much happier than I am now. For now, I try and enjoy the times when it is not quite so hot, and the pressure is not quite so great.

Liz, we care, we love you, we hurt for you. Please continue to stand. Don't fall down now.
Have fun when you go, and when you come home, try to look at things differently. You are doing everything you possibly can. Trying to make things work with all your heart. Surely blessings will come of this. Trust in God to take care of you. Try and understand that God works way beyond our understanding. He can make good come from even this.

I have a lot of faith in you. I expect you to get through this in good shape. Not just get through, but excel, and improve, and be much better coming out the other side.

I don't mean to minimize the pain, but I have never known much improvement to come from dwelling on it. Go have fun.

SS

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Seahorse -- I have been away and am just catching up. It sounds positive that SH told you to go back into plan A and that it was likely hard for your H to see how to get to the road to recovery. I was also encouraged that your H responded positively to the suggestion that he might speak with SH.

While you are feeling a bit down (ok maybe more than a bit) -- my perspective is that you are in a better position than you were before you talked to Steve. First, he has given you something to do/to work on and toward going back to plan A. Second, your H has been somewhat receptive. Third, you are about to go on a GREAT vacation/dive.

I think probably your H was just continuing in his confusion/scared to take the initiative while you were in plan B. I know this is what my WH keep saying -- I don't understand how I will get back that "in love" feeling. I'm afraid I won't ever be happy again, etc. etc. They are afraid.

Other than your camera being missing/likely lost -- I think your situation is overall positive and you should have hope. As heartpain said to me in a post not too long ago -- your situation is so much better than many of the others that post here. Your H is somewhat receptive -- many are not and are still in the hostile/it's your fault mode.

Can you tell us more about what SH has you doing as part of going back into plan A? Did he have specific suggestions?

I hope SH can talk to your H soon.

GO and have a great vacation.

I think it is great that you are talking with each other again and that he has agreed to try counseling. You can have a great trip while looking forward to coming back to a receptive husband with a lot of great stories about your trip. I also think the time apart has made him miss you a bit, which is why he has been so receptive when you did contact him.

- relate

Spoke to H last night, we had something else go wrong, getting very tired now.

H said he hadn't spoken 'to that guy' (steve) yet but he would. Yeah I know that promise and the way he said it, it means very little-there's nothing I can do now. although we talked he was foggy and didn't want to say much.

To be honest, I'd really just like to take a break from everything now. I was hoping Steve would get back to me soon with 'something' for me to do, but now I will head off without much to hope for and no plan. I have listened to everyone tell me its over and I'm in denial, maybe its time to start listening. Then again maybe my problem is that I listen to too many people instead of whats inside. Idon't know anymore I'm very confused and I'm hurting badly.

Sorry everyone, I know you don't want to here when I am down, but I cannot change feelings. I feel very sad and very down. I am tired and worn out. I've had a number of problems this week and I'm all out of solving them. Just trying to ride it all out, get through 5 minutes at a time.

My H was everything to me, and I guess that was my mistake. I put everything I had into one thing and thought that it would pay off. I truly thought if you could love someone enough it was all you had to do. Its hard to accept that you deserve such a punishment for being wrong. And how to you get over 13 years of 'togetherness'?

You know, when I look back I didn't really think I was that bad. I keep thinking of when we went to counselling and he said that there was nothing wrong but I wasn't happy and that's all he wanted. But he lied. That's what I find hard to accept. That one small decision had a huge impact.

What is even harder is the mixed signals I keep getting. He kept saying we were working on our marriage. Wouldn't that indicate that he wanted to or was he just to gutless to tell me it was over? Why lead me on like this?

When I spoke to him last night I had the overwhelming feeling to ask him what he wanted from me. To just tell me one way or the other. Does he still love me? Is there any hope left? I feel like I'm stuck right now. Stuck in limbo waiting for an answer. I still feel like it, just ringing up and saying 'tell me, either way', but I know it won't do much good. But then what I'm doing now is worse. Being out of contact is sure to end my marriage and I did it. That's what pisses me off the most. I got myself here. I'm so angry about it. I hate it. If I had just let things be...

Anyway gotta go. Will check in as I'm hoping to here from Steve.
bye

Hey,
We want to hear no matter what, down or up, we still care.

Perhaps I was part of the problem, perhaps I gave bad advice.

I think we really don't know what the end is yet. I hope you can go and have fun and come back and work at things some more.

Don't think you ruined things. He started this, remember that. Would any thing else have done better? We just don't know, so don't kick yourself.

If I could make one strong suggestion, it would be to have some faith in your self. No one can give more than everything they have, and you have given your all.

We care.

SS

Seahorse -- Don't feel badly about being down -- we all have our good days and our bad ones. I know how you are feeling and it's really frustrating. My drive home tonight made me think again that maybe it would be better to be done and move on -- but I also know there is still hope. I really do believe there is still hope for you and I believe Steve will help you come up with a plan that will help you.

We can't always be strong all of the time. It is good that you are leaving soon for a vacation. Sometimes it is getting out of our day-to-day life that help us get perspective.

I can't take your pain away and believe me I wish I could. Have faith in yourself.

Nearly 2 months of Plan B has put a distance between you 2. He seems to be like `Yeah, whatever' wheras he was calling for you on June 30 just before Plan B. Seems like yes, continued Plan B may likely see you divorced.

It may be difficult to work your way back to the position before plan B now. He's had a taste of being divorced and doesn't seem to mind the idea.

- relate

Hi USH and SS, thank you for your support. SS plese don't feel badly, I have done what I've done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nearly 2 months of Plan B has put a distance between you 2. He seems to be like `Yeah, whatever' wheras he was calling for you on June 30 just before Plan B. Seems like yes, continued Plan B may likely see you divorced.

It may be difficult to work your way back to the position before plan B now. He's had a taste of being divorced and doesn't seem to mind the idea.

- relate </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Relate, your comments may be the truth, however they do not help. I have seen some of your comments to others, and you often contradict yourself from post to post. Could you please refrain from posting to me?

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

There is no contradiction. The situation is different from one person to the other. Then the situation changes from one time to the next. But plan B in your case was a mistake that may prove difficult to undo.

- relate

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Dear Seahorse,
I wish you some peace and joy from your long awaited trip. It is hard but still possible to enjoy and get some strength from such a nice vacation. I know first hand - just before D-day when I was so confused, I found a great fare to Tahiti,so I took kids and went there on monents notice ( H said he could not go, at the time I assumed it was really work related). Even though it was not the same as having whole family together, we did enjoy the trip a lot. I do feel for you as just like you I can't imagine totally disconnecting from 12-15 plus years spent together. I treated this trip as creating good memory for myself and the kids, little did I know then that this might be the new way of vacationing from now on. We will see. I am still patient, though I do have extremely sad and unhappy days. He is still home though I assume the logistics of moving overseas to OW might be the main reason. And the kids. Sadly, not me.
Thinking and praying,
FBOW