Hi SS and FBOW, thanks for your comments.

For the last few times I've contacted him I have taken the situation at 'face value'. He says he can't commit to working on the marriage, so I've said 'then end it and do it quick please'. I've told him over and over that I believe the marriage can be better, that I am working on me and that I love him. I've been taking risks telling him things that are deep within that I've been scared to say before in case I get hurt. I've told him that his happiness is important to me but I wished it was me who could have made him happy.

I've talked and LISTENED to what he has to say about how he feels, all of it, no matter how much I wanted to shout 'unfair', I listened. I detached myself and heard what he said and clarified and talked it through. I didn't try to defend my position, but suggested that maybe we could have negotiated some of this stuff.

Basically, I got real.

The last email I sent him read:

"Your help is requested"

Dear H, How are you, blah blah

I wanted to ask you if it was OK if I give your responses to the Love Buster Questionnaire to Steve Harley? He is interested to see what you think and in fact has repeated his request to speak to you personally. He says that he has a plan for us so we can fall in love again and stay in love (I think I told you this before). He, like me, still believes our marriage can not only be saved but that it can be far better than it was.

I have made him aware of your decision and that I accept it. He knows that you are in the process of legally ending our marriage, however, he still asked me to extend this invitation to you. He would like to get your side of the story, I can only tell him what you have told me.

H, I've told you either way I am working on me. No matter who my next relationship is with I want it to last and I want it to be fulfilling and happy for both persons. I am very much looking forward to this.

Anyway, the email address to contact Marriage Builders is blah blah blah

If you want me to arrange an appointment I am happy to do it.

Talk to you soon, I am still interested in hearing about the golf and wineries.

SH

He reply basically said, I want you to arrange it. I have arranged it and will see him tomorrow to tell him times. He gave me fairly limited timeframes so I hope he dosen't try to get out of it this way.

I can't tell you how nervous I was sending the email. I edited and re-edited and after I sent it I wanted to take it back. But I took the approach that 'hey, it can't get any worse than it is right now, so I might as well take a risk'. I'm sick of tip-toeing around him, I just want to be the new improved me, even if he isn't quite normal right now. The new improved Seahorse takes these risks and the worst she'll get is 'no'. But I figure that if I can survive all I've been through thus far a 'no' won't kill me.

Look, I'm not going to get too hopeful about all this. I've seen too many hopes get dashed on these boards. I am taking it as 'my H talking to SH to tell his side of the story and maybe hear a plan'. I will take each day as it comes and still presume the marriage is over until further notice. This could simply be a little problem he is having with OW or it could just be him stalling to keep me here.

Besides that, he's got some work to do too, guys. I've identified two needs that he wasn't fulfilling properly, I want him to really be ready to learn how to meet those needs and to convince me that the A IS OVER.

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

I feel like I'm going nuts. H has definitely initiated the financial split, so I don't know where life will take me now. I'm scared, I will have to sell my home for sure. Its something that I've been putting off, but it looks like now its time. Once I am out of here, it will feel like there is nothing left of our relationship. Steve asked me not to push it for this reason, as it may be me who moves on.

I'm scared guys, its all coming to a head with H calling Steve soon. I know this is a good thing, but I feel like we're coming to a point where it WILL go one way or the other and I'm scared whichever way it goes.

I know I can't resist this change and chances are that things will work out better but it is still very sad. I thought we had a good life here.

I don't know why this is hitting me tonight. I've been like this a lot lately. Still grieving after so long.

Hi Liz,
It seems like even though we don't want to get our hopes up, we always do. I know it's got to be hard right now.

I will have to sell my home for sure. Its something that I've been putting off, but it looks like now its time. Once I am out of here, it will feel like there is nothing left of our relationship.
It's one of those ties that bind, and once cut, it is indeed hard to go back.

I'm scared guys, its all coming to a head with H calling Steve soon. I know this is a good thing, but I feel like we're coming to a point where it WILL go one way or the other and I'm scared whichever way it goes.
I think if you absolutely knew what would happen you would be OK. It's the unknown that we fear, we wonder what will happen and we usually imagine much worse than what does happen. It's hard to believe that things will ever be good when we are feeling so low.

I know I can't resist this change and chances are that things will work out better but it is still very sad. I thought we had a good life here. I don't know why this is hitting me tonight. I've been like this a lot lately. Still grieving after so long.

Perhaps this is what bothers us the most, we know about the pain, and we don't want to see others hurt. None of us knows what will happen, and what your future will be, but we have faith that it will be a bright future.

I have very strong feelings that you will be OK. I hope you will believe me. I know it doesn't take away the pain, but it should give you hope that it won't last forever.

SS

Seahorse:

There is a point where BS has to make a choice, yes it is very scary ... I never join dating scene and I have to be mr. mom ... but I survive & thriving. You will too. You will be fine w/o H, you have to focus on your life now. Actually for me it is easier, I don't have to deal w/ WW A & OM. Yes, there are times where we greif on what could have been but we have to realize that we have control to make ourself happy too.

-rh-

Hi Seahorse,
How are you? Are you willing to share anything about SH appointment?
I kept reading and re-reading Redhat's post.
I sure would like to be convinced he is right not just generally, but also in my case.

Take care,
FBOW

Seahorse -- Thinking of you and wondering how you are doing. I leave tomorrow for a business related conference and will have to attend a reception with WH's bosses and don't know how I'm going to restrain myself from asking why the F#$K don't you do something about this inappropriate behavior?!?!? I know they know about it.

I'll try and check in tonight and when I get back on Tuesday. I hope you are okay.

Hi FBOW, Redhat, SS and USH,

FBOW - yes I am happy to share any info with you. H has not yet talked to Steve, but I have spoken to Steve twice. Basically, because there is no kids, he wants me in plan A. He wanted to speak to H himself. He believes part of the reason H won't commit to M is because he can't see how M can be saved - he needs a plan which is where Steve comes in.

I don't know whether its just because I'm tired or what, but I'm really wearing thin on this whole thing. I'm tired of the disrespect I constantly get from H. I have put so much into this, that is why I am hanging on so hard, but I just feel so tired. I know I should love him without expecting anything in return, I guess I do and always will, but I need something in return soon to keep going with trying to save M - I'm becoming demoralised. I am giving so much, but its starting to hurt, because I feel like I'm just giving to someone who dosen't care. I feel like a fool.

After he speaks to Steve I will have run out of things I can do to save this marriage. Then what? With having to sell the house and moving out, I know it will be hard for me to keep hanging on. Being in this house is what is keeping the R alive for me.

Its just that I've invested a lot, I know originally it was to "win him back", and I've grown a lot from what I've learnt and it really is a plan A for me now. I am wondering how an uncommiting H will fit into my life.

I have been keeping very busy. I have taken up Street Latin Salsa again, but at another venue that is in the city - noone really comes with a partner, so I don't feel so self conscious. I am going to attend a Separation and Divorce group with one of the local churches - more to meet people than anything.

BTW my dog is doing really well. I can't be happier. We enjoy every day we have together.

<small>[ October 28, 2002, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Hi again, been thinking this all through still, maybe I think too much. I don't know what to do anymore. I am demotivated to keep trying, but I'm just waiting it out. I don't have to do anything right now, I can hang it out till he speaks to Steve, if he does end up doing it. I'm trying not to get hopes up.

I hope this is resolved soon.

Waiting is the hardest part of BS's life ... but it is up to us what we do with the time that we have given. You are in a good hand (SH). Your WH didn't realize that by prolonging his fence sitting it would drained all your LB$ for him. Street Latin ... hmmm, OM is a Salsa band player. Here in bayarea there are sizable salsa crowd.

-RH-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seahorse:
<strong>I know I should love him without expecting anything in return.......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why?

I propose that your love is NOT unconditional, nor should it be. Liz, perhaps you have fallen out of love with him and are hanging on to "win." You are under no further obligation to love him and if you wake up tomorrow and want to stop trying, I don't think anyone here will fault you. If you feel you are at the end of your rope, so be it.

Dave

Hay Seahorse! I mean HEY!!!

(((((Big HUGS)))))) You are doing so well I agree with what everyone has said. And believe me I know how hard it is to wait. You are so strong and you have done so much work. You should be very proud.

I am still waiting to hear from my H- haven't spoken since May. Not that we have a chance. At least you and your H communicate on some level and he has given some indication of being open to working with you to some degree. But remember what he says and actually does are two different things.

I was willing to wait and work also but there came a point where I realized that my H will continue to treat me this way because I allow him to do so. It took a long time before I decided that I could not handle the lack of respect my H showed me. I have too much respect for myself at this point in my life to allow him to treat me this way any longer. I know the demoralizing feelings you have. It was very hard for me to face the situation in its entirety. But there came a time when I thought about my mortality. How long do I want to dedicate my life trying to save my M when my H won't even speak to me? He claims I am too good for him and now I see he is right. I do not know how much longer I have on this earth but I decided that I have given my H enough of my time with nothing in return. I deserve more. You have to decide when and what is right for you.

I agree with WAT when he speaks of unconditional love. I recall something else I believe he wrote awhile back about love being conditional after an A. You have to set the conditions and what you expect. WAT also referred to possibly being at the end of your rope which brought to mind the following item. I may have found here on another board I don't quite remember but it has helped me take a risk I was too scared to take. Here it is:

"I received this on an e-mail. Sometimes we want advice from everyone under the sun,(not that advice and different opinions are not good), but sometimes we need to listen to our inner voice too. Just thought it was interesting enough to share........

They tell the story of a mountain climber who was
eager
to conquer 22,841-foot Mt. Aconcagua, the highest mountain
in the Western Hemisphere.

After months of preparing, he began climbing, alone. And
as the day came to an end, he decided not to set up camp...
but to keep climbing instead.

Soon night fell with a sudden heaviness, and darkness
swallowed the mountain. There was no moon, the stars were
covered by clouds, and visibility shrunk to nothing as
the terrain turned black.

And as he was climbing a ridge, about 300 feet from the
top, he suddenly slipped and fell.

Falling rapidly, he could only see blotches of darkness
as they passed, and he felt the terror of being sucked in
by gravity. And in those panic filled moments his life
flashed before him and he knew he'd die...

...until he felt a jolt that almost tore him in half.

Yes!

Like any good mountain climber, he'd staked himself with
a long rope tied around his waist. And in those next few
moments of stillness, as he dangled from the rope in the
cold, dark air, he screamed "HELP ME!"

And a deep, quiet voice answered from the darkness...
"What do you want me to do?"

"SAVE ME!", he pleaded, tears streaming down his cheeks.

And the voice, soft and warm, answered clearly: "I will...
just cut the rope that's holding you up."

But he held on tighter...

...and the next day the rescue team found him frozen,
clinging to the rope...

...two feet off the ground.

How close are *you* to getting out of your box and gett-
ing what you want? What's holding you back? Will you
trust the voice inside, the voice of that powerful part
of you that can do most anything...

...and cut the rope?

© Pat Lynch, 2000-2002. All rights reserved."

Please feel free to forward this on.

I hope this helped you Seahorse. If not ignore it as babble from your babbling friend Forgiver. It just hit home for me because of where I was emotionally when I read it.
Keep your chin up and know that we are all here for you. To cheer you on to fight and keep going or to cheer you on to fight and go on with your life without your H. Whatever you decide I'll be your personal cheering section and I am sure others will be there to join in!
Take Care
Forgiver

Seahorse,
Lots of us just thinking of you and hoping this finds you well...
ARK

Hi Seahorse,
Tough waiting, isn't it.

I know I should love him without expecting anything in return, I guess I do and always will, but I need something in return soon to keep going with trying to save M - I'm becoming demoralised.
Nah, you should not have to love with out expecting love in return. You have every right to expect love from him, that's what it's all about. Now if he was in a coma from an accident and in the hospital hooked up to IV's then maybe, but not when he commits adultery, not when he makes it a choice to be unfaithful.

I am giving so much, but its starting to hurt, because I feel like I'm just giving to someone who doesn't care. I feel like a fool. After he speaks to Steve I will have run out of things I can do to save this marriage. Then what?
I think you know "then what." Liz, don't be afraid. God still rewards those that try, he will take care of you and see that you are happy, please have faith that it will be so.

I am going to attend a Separation and Divorce group with one of the local churches - more to meet people than anything.
That is good, you do need to go foreword with your life, you can always take him back if he changes his direction, but in the meantime, you should make progress yourself.

BTW my dog is doing really well. I can't be happier. We enjoy every day we have together.
It's funny how much we depend on them, and how faithful they are. I wonder what the rate is of dogs becoming unfaithful to their masters? I bet it is near zero. Perhaps I had better go home and thank mine for his friendship again.

Still tough waiting. That part won't change anytime soon.

Don't give up on yourself or your ability to cope, you can do this.
SS

Hi everyone, thank you for your support. Just thought I'd update.

H emailed me this morning, he range Steve 5 times last night and noone answered the phone, he left two messages but noone called him back. I am so disappointed I do not know what to do. I feel like crying but I am at work and I'm not going through all this again here. I can't believe this. It has taken 9 months of hard work to get to this. What went wrong? The only thing I can think of is that the times have been stuffed (we recently changed to daylight savings. maybe I've messed it up).

I don't know what happened, I have emailed the office to try to find out, I may even stay up and ring tonight. I can't believe it. I am so over this situation. It seems every effort I make is just not working out. I am going out of my mind right now.

H's email says he may come around next sunday (not this weekend), so it is another 2 weeks I will not see him. I am so devoid of love at the moment I don't think I can take it.

I am so angry and pissed off, what is going on? AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!

Please God, let there be a good reason for this.

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

((((Seahorse))))
There is a larger plan for you I am sure but I feel for your sorrow, frustration and desperation right now.
Pleeease do not blame yourself for things well beyond your control.
You are doing everything within your power, and you do it well.
And yes, maybe it's the time difference/saving deal, or maybe they closed for Halloween?

I just learn something today as well. I am not ready to post about yet though.
Will check your thread later,
Hugs and Hugs
FBOW

Seahorse -- I can hear the frustration in your post. I cannot believe that your WH tried and there was nobody there after all of this; it's just incredible. Did you get any sense from your WH whether he'd be willing to try again?

I know there are good thing to come. There have to be because you are a good person and I just refuse to believe we were put on this earth to just experience suffering. You deserve joy and happiness and I believe it will be there for you. I also believe there must be a purpose for what we are going through. If nothing else, it has made me a kinder more thoughtful person (not that I was mean to begin with) and much more conscious of others.

Peace to you Seahorse. I think it's time for an at home spa weekend and then snuggling with your dog.

Hi FBOW and USH, thanks for the hugs I really needed it!

Well, it was daylight saving thing! Apparently there was a change over there too. This makes it really difficult and I don't know when I can schedule him in again. The 6am appointment is 10pm here, he agreed to that, but their next available is 7am which is 11pm here (on a Thursday) I don't know if he will agree. Oh well, I can only ask. Maybe this just isn't meant to be.

I wanted to let you all know something. I went to a Divorce/separation group with a local church last week. There was about 10 people there. I have to say how far ahead we all are by posting and learning here at MB. There was one lady who had been divorced 20 years and never worked through it and was still holding feelings that she couldn't deal with! I imagine there will always be some feelings that pop up even if you've worked it all through and fallen in love with someone else, but she had so much unresolved.

We talked about what recovery meant to us. I said that I would feel I was in recovery when I felt empowered - that I was in charge of my own happiness, and was responsible for it and living it consistently. I was amazed that one guy who had been divorced 6 years said that he had no concept of what that kind of thinking was like. He said that he still felt that she held his happiness and that he could never get to that point. He was still hoping there was some chance with his wife. I can't imagine myself being like that for 6 years! It would just tear you apart!

Thank MB and the people here for all you have learnt guys. Truly, the coping skills and life skill truly put you far ahead. Now I understand what everyone meant when they said I was far ahead of H. I can believe it now. Even after feeling so disappointed about H missing out talking to Steve, I've managed to put it all into perspective - months ago it would have been a total disaster for days!

Redhat - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Street Latin ... hmmm, OM is a Salsa band player. Here in bayarea there are sizable salsa crowd.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops. Oh dear. I imagine you are none to fond of Salsa!

WAT - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Liz, perhaps you have fallen out of love with him and are hanging on to "win."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I've considered this myself. I don't THINK I am. The thought of recovery (at least the remote possibility of it) scares the hell out of me. I know its going to be very hard work and I sometimes wonder if I've got it in me. But the thought of just walking away... I don't know if I can do it while there is a glimour of hope.

Forgiver - Thanks for your story! You never babble, I love hearing from you and hearing about what your up to. I'm just waiting for the day you come and tell us you've found a new love! I will be even happier for you!

Ark - hanging in there.

SS - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you know "then what." Liz, don't be afraid. God still rewards those that try, he will take care of you and see that you are happy, please have faith that it will be so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I admit it, the 'then what' is scary, but it is becoming less scary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps I had better go home and thank mine for his friendship again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, do that! A nice big bone would be a suiting thank you! I'm about to take mine for a walk, he's very patiently waiting on his bed... Its a dog's life.

FBOW!!!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just learn something today as well. I am not ready to post about yet though.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is it? I'm intrigued!

USH - </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Peace to you Seahorse. I think it's time for an at home spa weekend and then snuggling with your dog.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You read my mind. I'm going to break open that port...

Hi Seahorse,
well I can say it now. I believe his need is for a young partner. I am too old.
I asked that point blank after having thoughts about that ( I still operate in a guess-what-is-a-need mode ) and the answer was not No way. The answer was as usual I don't know.
I felt really strange after that. Somewhat relieved. Of course shaken. Because this does not sound like a need of a man I married 15 years ago. I guess people do change.
I am planning on keeping a good care of myself but certainly not at all ( and ridiculous costs). I do not believe in buying time by cosmetic surgery ( I might change my mind - but you know right now I am 36).
So anyway - if this is his true and long term (how funny) need - I don't think SH has a way to fill it by the same person thorogught the life of M???
Any thoughts?
FBOW

Seahorse,

Actually, now I am almost single again ... I enjoy Salsa. I went twice to hang out few months ago, it was too hot for MM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> but I will take lesson after my Dv. In the bay area, the club's cover charged includes Salsa lesson <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

Liz - I read with interest your description of going to the support group meeting. Many of us here (including me) have postulated that we're way ahead of our spouses (and others not interacting with people in similar situations), but your post is the first time I recall some actual "research" being reported. I'm glad it made you feel strong!

Keep up the good thinking.

WAT