Whew!!!! This is getting interesting!!! It's as though you both are reaching inside my mind; because what you are saying I really need to hear and discuss. Technical question...How do I "break in"/edit so I can comment on your posts. It looks like editing to me when I read others stuff...Let me know ASAP...I feel like this is a big breakthrough here!! CSue

CSue,<p>Well the way I do it is to copy a part of a post that I want onto the clip board of my computer (you know go to "edit" and then click on "copy" after I have hilighted a portion of text with my mouse). Then like using bold, italic, etc you can use quotes. You do this by surrounding the text with {quote} text {/quote}. I used curly brackets instead of square brackets because if you use square brackets [] then the html stuff will pick it up and make into a quote. <p>So grap some text paste into a the window or onto a word processor window, surround the text with the square brackets quote and square brackets /quote which ends it. And you have it.<p>I usually make the quote stuff before I paste into the window. That way I know everything will be used as a quote.<p>You can also click on an icon above where the sunglasses are but that tends to make the whole post a quote.<p>Anyway, I hope this helps.<p>JL

JL & FHO; I will work on the editing based on JL's instructions; but in the meantime I just printed out this Topic so I can have continuity with my responses!! Also, it will come in handy when I journal.<p>JL - In reference to your remarks about honesty; you hit it dead on. I need to practice reinforcing honesty. At this point I think my H feels just the opposite. In the short term as a result of his honesty all Hell has broken out! It is probably going to take me a long time and lots of practice to not "react" when he tells me something painful. I will do as you suggest to let it go at the time and come back to it after the emotion has subsided. In the long run Honesty is all I can build a new relationship on. That's why it's so important for me to eventually find out if there's any other d-days more recent than the A he's just admitted to. I do believe him that there will not be future A's. However I need him to understand the concept of EA's; because the more I learn about that the more I realize he has a chronic pattern of them in the past.<p>FHO; Patience huh!!! I have been growing patience in my garden ever since my boys have been born; however I desperately need to have more going through this situation. You are right in thinking I want to fix things NOW!!!!! I must say that I feel my intensity and anxiety reduced tremendously since posting to this board. It's been a way to get the poison out; without my H paying the price. After reading your 4/11 post I realized I needed to go back and read the Basic Concepts on this website. I had read them originally and was still in such shock I realize I missed some key points. Such as we're supposed to have fun during the 15 hours and have it be like dating as you noted. This will be the foundation of our newly defined relationship; and the rewriting of our new history. And like you and JL suggested my biggest goal will to become a safe person for my H to tell the truth to. Just knowing I don't have to "dog him" about the person in question and if there's another untold A gives me peace at this point in the journey.<p>Now about the SF....I;ll post this and continue on because I need some clarity for sure!

Hey, CSue.<p>How are you doing? I am constantly amazed that the same things I felt when I discovered the A, went through the first after shocks, etc., are the same emotions that other felt when the an A entered their M. Re: the honesty thing -- the only reason I know about not responding during the heat of discovery of new facts is because I made the same mistakes you did. At first when my H was being honest with me and answering my questions, I reacted and wanted him to feel my pain. Now I know that I was just teaching him not to be honest with me. It really helps to take a few deep breaths and really think about what he said before answering. If you feel too emotional, it helps to just say, "Thanks for sharing that with me. I need some time to think about and process this info. Perhaps we can talk about this again in a little while and I can share some of my thoughts." Take a break, really think about things, try to understand your H's POV, then consciously think about some good memories and things you like about your H -- when those are fresh in your mind, it is probably a good time to go back to the conversation.<p>It also does help to go back periodically to reread the basic concepts -- especially after the first initial shock of discovery. When I found this website (what a blessing), I read everything, then began looking at the posts. Later on when I was confused about a concept discussed in a post, I reread. I also really recomment Dr. Harley's book Surviving An Affair. I goes into more detail than with website and gives some additional tips -- like trying to incorporate meeting several ENs in the 15 hours you spend together a week (that made a lot of sense to me, since I love to multi-task).<p>Just remember that you are not alone. This site is really wonderful. I recommend you post questions that you have and issues you come across as you work through this rebuilding process. <p>Will be interested to hear your comments on SF.<p>FHO

JL,<p>Sorry to keep hijacking CSue's post also, but just wanted to comment to you. You are so right. That seeing our spouses enjoying something works for both men and women. <p>I enjoy things more when my H is enthusiastic about doing them. Regarding SF -- the more my H tells me how sexy, beautiful and how great I am at meeting his SF needs, the more I enjoy it and want to meet this need. <p>It was good to have a man's perspective on this. Hopefully this will help CSue as well.<p>FHO

Ok guys...here goes!! This will be fun to talk about!The good news is that H and I share the same 1st 2 en's in the same order. They are 1)affection, 2)SF. However we define those en's differently. To my H, (I'll try really hard to not exagerate) SF is EVERYTHING. It is my belief that affection is #1 on his list because he considers it foreplay. (I am speaking in absolutes, so therefore some exageration,I'm sure). So it goes without saying that lots of SF, dumps loads into the LB for him and for me too. This has been our savings grace in starting the recovery process. I also have to say that SF is so incredibly fun for both of us; it has always been a highlight of our relationship. The magic that happens with us is unlike anything I have experienced with anyone else. He has a way of disolving any inhibitions within me; there has been simply no downside in this area. (Hehe I think I am leaving tons of room for humor here). <p>Here's the downside. Because of what I have described; the A has added hurt/pain in direct proportion to the fun/joy that defines SF between us. I can't believe that he took something that I feel was so special between us and invited somebody else in. I have been relentless in insisting on detail so that I could draw comparisons. Very painful to hear the detailed truth. Agonizing in fact. I wish it weren't true, but SF is not the same between us now. This is something Ihope heals along with the rest of me. I have drawn some new boundaries about what is ok for us to do; that before were limitless. (I can't believe I'm telling you all this!)<p>JL - I have heard my H say the exact same thing as you regarding how men view sex. Strong Drive and physical release. And yes always with him. And yes he has said so often that it is the biggest way for him to emotionally connect to a woman. So yes yes yes, for men it is normal, daily, many times daily is possible; and with women it is a special thing. I agree that it is a unique act of closeness for men. Women, just speaking for myself; I am a touching person, even casually with friends of both sexes. I touch when I speak, as a gesture or to emphasize a point.<p>JL - another great point is is that men don't understand why women don't view sex as showing affection, while considering cards, flowers etc as showing affection. Which is why the fact that my H and I both having the same #1 en, being affection; doesn't necessarily mean that we are talking about the same thing. Sheesh, I hope you are all following me here. I may be confusing myself.<p>FOH - I am just learning not to judge my H's en's or even his definitions of his en's. Big breakthrough for me; would never have thought this if not for MB. What has been enlightening for me regarding the differences in genders is raising 2 boys. I grew up with sisters only so "boys" are new to me. To see my 2 boys grow up has helped me see how they are simply "wired" differently; and yes they came that way!! I have taken being a mother very seriously (intensely) and know that my main mission in life as far as they are concerned is to raise 2 decent young men that are safe to feel their feelings, show their feelings; and be sensitive to both boys and girls. At their ages 8 & 9; they are still barbarians; but I see where progress is being made. Tapping into their sweet sensitive nuturing natures in any way I can. <p>Anyway, more thoughts, debate, etc would be greatly appreciated. In the meantime I am starting with a fresh slate to see how my H defines his #1 & #2 en's!! This part has been very rewarding. Thanks for listening; kind of fun to talk about something not doom and gloom for once!! CSue

Forgot something. I am so glad I printed this stuff out!! JL - you said that based on a recent past posting that it was relatively consistent that the majority of men find it a turn on that they please their W. I would agree with that in my case; and unfortunatley that has to heal too.<p>A side thought here: Anti-D's dramatically decreased my sex drive. So a word of caution to those on anti-d's. Maybe others won't be as affected as I was; but what happened in my case is that sex drive just didn't exist; and I didn't know that it was missing!! I simply didn't know what I wasn't missing. That's why it was hugely important for me to get off the meds 4 years ago. There is even a protocol to add the med Wellbutrin to the anti-d's to offset that particular side effect. It helped some, but nothing like stopping the anti-d's all together. <p>I have to also say that being on the anti-d's to start were life-saving for me so not an option at times. However once I evened out emotionally I got off of them. This A has been a true test for me to see if I can cope with no meds. I hope I can. Thanks again guys!! CSue

CSue - I have to agree on the different interpretations for the same EN. On our questionnaires, WH ranked SF as #2. It didn't make my top 5, down around 6 or 7, I believe. The weird part is that with the much lower ranking, I felt that sex 3 times a week was where we needed to be. Even with his much higher ranking, he felt 4 times a week. So, our rankings are quite different, but what we actually want is pretty much the same. Go figure!

CSue,<p>Just a quick post -- thanks for sharing. I don't know how much insight I can give you. For us SF is definately great now. It is the conversation and affection that are harder. I think that is because those are in my top ENs. My H having an EA really hurt and bothered me -- I think that is because conversation and expressions of affection were so important to me. One of the greatest things about my H was his ability to communicate with me. I really though we had a great connection that way. <p>I think everything about the A is painful for the BS, but especially whatever ENs the WS was having met by the OP that were especially important to the BS. Does that make sense? I don't know really how to work through this other than to focus on how much your H does love you. He did not have to tell you about the A -- he volunteered the info, which is a plus. Perhaps you can work on building some new SF memories. Try to do some things that will be unique for you H and you. Do something out of the ordinary -- go someplace special, maybe do something wild (I don't know, someplace special/different -- elevator, fantasies, anything else you can think of). I actually think there are some posts on the EN board that talk about stuff like this. <p>I think the other really important thing to do is talk with your H about your triggers. If something he does during SF is a trigger, you should talk about it. Then remember to replace a bad memory with a good. I would guess based on you post, your H feels he is a very lucky man with such an open, adventurous W. Remember that any time you have a trigger with SF. <p>Also, I totally understand what you say about me not understanding that SF does not equal Affection for women. That is why I do think it is important to know what each other's ENs are, but also how they define the need and what top things you need to do to meet those needs. I think the MB concepts are great and really make sense. I also have had major "light bulb" moments reviewing this material.<p>Keep posting. Things get better every day -- remember that.<p>FHO

KS41 - How nice to find that althoug defined differently you and your H were really in agreement. I am hoping for this as we rebuild our M. We have just barely started working on en's; but my H needs a break after last week. I'm curious to see what initiative he brings to the process. Thanks CSue

FHO - Your quote :<p> "I think everything about the A is painful for the BS, but especially whatever ENs the WS was having met by the OP that were especially important to the BS. Does that make sense? "<p>You're right in this. I am still unclear what this is in my case since we're going back to 4 years ago. It needs further investigating just so I can understand and watch out for in the future.<p>Your quote: "He did not have to tell you about the A -- he volunteered the info, which is a plus."<p>This is a plus I know. What causes me conflict with this, is the fact that when the A was going on; the timing he chose to suggest that we go into MC coincided with his realization that the A wasn't the answer to our problems. When he proposed MC I was clueless that we were having any problems at all; in fact that was the topic of the first several MC appointments. How could 1 partner be so sure that there were relationship problems and the other partner be so astonished that anything was going on as to suggest MC. I clearly remember exactly what he said when he said we needed MC. I asked him what if anything brought this to a head. He said "nothing in particular", I just feel like we could have a much more intimate relationship than we're currently having. He hadn't had a history of lying to me before so I took that at face value. In reality the A had been going on 3 months at that point. He ended it approximately 1 month after we started MC. And as you have seen me post in the past... the A never came up in MC. Honesty in MC isn't guaranteed in his case. So now I say to myself...fast forward to now. WHAT happened that made him choose "now" to tell me about the A? Again pretty much the same answer as last time. That's one reason why I think there is more truth "recent truth" to be told. Since he thought waiting 4 years would soften the blow of this A; I have no confidence that he would tell me now of any other A's more recent. The suspicions drive me crazy. <p>Your quote: "Perhaps you can work on building some new SF memories. Try to do some things that will be unique for you H and you. Do something out of the ordinary -- go someplace special, maybe do something wild (I don't know, someplace special/different -- elevator, fantasies, anything else you can think of). I actually think there are some posts on the EN board that talk about stuff like this."<p>Hehe! Great idea. I'll look on the en board for suggestions. Something that I'm working on is having my sister watch my boys this summer for several days so my H and I can take a vacation by ourselves. We haven't had ANY time together without the boys in over 7 years. We don't have any family living in the same state so it's been tough to get away without them. It's a priority now!! <p>Bless you for your posts!! CSue

CSue,<p>Hi, sorry I didn't post earlier. Busy weekend. <p>Great idea to get away without the kids. My H and I don't have any kids yet, so this isn't an issue for us, but I do know for most couples it is. I think that will be a great way for the 2 of you to build some new SF memories. <p>Regarding the MC 4 years ago. Yes, I agree that it is a difficult one to deal with. Look for MaggieRose's posts (I think that is her name). She has a sort of similiar situation in that she recently discovered her H had a PA with her BF 6 years ago. He originally told her it was only an EA and the recovered from that went to MC. Now, in MC it has finally come out that it was a PA (including in her house, bed, etc.) and that the reason her H did not tell her before is because he made a vow to the OW not to tell. Interesting that his priorities are a little mixed up -- wedding vows made before God, family, friends can be broken, but a promise to OW can't be broken without first consulting the OW.<p>I agree that when you were in MC 4 years ago, you were not operating with all the facts. That is unfair. Your H does need to understand that you are going to have some strong feelings not just about the A, but also because he did not tell you for 4 years. Normal feelings (what I have seen from MaggieRose's posts) include that you will feel the last 4 years of marriage were a lie. <p><<How could 1 partner be so sure that there were relationship problems and the other partner be so astonished that anything was going on as to suggest MC.>><p>Actually, the discovery of the A is kind of like this. Although in my case I knew that my H and I were having a few problems -- we were both kind of distant -- had been for a few months, the shock of the A was still the same. My H expressed to me that he felt there were MAJOR problems with our M (which he hadn't mentioned to me before). I was shocked to hear this. I though that basically we had a good M. <p><<WHAT happened that made him choose "now" to tell me about the A?>><p>Good question. I think you have raised an important issue that you and your H will need to explore. Could be that he just couldn't live with the guilt anymore. I have read elsewhere that if a WS never confesses to the A (unless he/she is a serial cheater, without a conscious), the guilt of keeping that secret could very likely lead to the destruction of the M anyway because of the wall the WS must build up to protect this secret. I think it will be very important to discover this answer. Probably MC is a good place to delve into this.<p>You know, the other positive thing I see is that your H was in an A and realized that this was not the right way to solve his problems in the M (many WS use an A to solve the problems in their M - basically have 2 lives to get all their needs met). Your H did suggest MC (although he didn't tell you the real reason) and ended the A on his own.<p>Keep working Plan A. You will be a better person for it.<p>Thank God for this site! I would not be where I am in the recovery process with my H without it.<p>FHO