I have just learned that my W has been involved in an EA for the past 6 mos. The OM is a former co-worker from 15 yrs ago that she has rekindled a relationship with.They have a great deal in common and they believe that they are "kindred spirits." My W says that they are just "special friends" I have no proof of a PA
The EA developed during a very tough period in our marriage. I was a LBer big time. The MB site has helped me tremendously to learn how to meet her EN and not LB.
Because it was EA my W won't end relationship. I can't seem to make her understand that the EA is just as dangerous as PA.
Help. I nee dall thoughts.
CWMAC

cwmac<p>You are so right. An EA is as much a marriage buster as a PA. Until she understands that her seeking emotional fulfillment outside of the M is not healthy, you will be talking to a brick wall. "It's just a friendship." are the famous last words of almost every WS. If you know that you have not been meeting your W's EN's and are actively trying to do so now, is she aware of your efforts at change? Does she know that you are willing to actively work on improving the M for her, and for you? Right now she may be so enamored with this rekindled friendship she may be deep in a fog with it and need even recognize where it is truly leading her and your M. I don't know if this will work, and I wish my W had done this with me before she went off and did her PA, but why don't you sit down with her and have a heart to heart discussion with her. Tell her how much you love her and how much you really care about making her as happy as she can be in your M together. Let her know that you are aware that the M has been less than fulfilling but now you are ready to do something about it. Tell her that you want to work with her in making your M the best that it can be for both of you. Admit to your fear of losing her and of losing the M. (I never let my W know that I was afraid of losing her and she took it as indifference or as taking her for granted that she would always be there). You may feel that you have already done this, but somehow she needs to know that she is the most important and special person in your life. And in some way that is not accusatory or attacking, you must tell her that her emotional involvement with another man hurts you deeply and that you want to be, or should be, her "special friend". Perhaps through an honest and open display of your feelings you just may reach her heart enough to make her see what is really happening. If she truly loves you, she should respond to your vulnerability, your openness, and your honesty. I hope she has not "turned away" from you so much that even this type of talk has no effect on her. Like I said, she may be in a fog right now over this EA she is engaged in and is so convinced that nothing is wrong with "just being friends" that nothing you say will matter. If not, put Plan A into action and see what progress you make. I am very new at this myself so I hope other more seasoned forum members chime in with their insights and advise for you. Good Luck.

Hi cwmac,<p>I'm sorry for your pain. I'm glad you found this site though, it's helped me sooo much.<p>I know how you feel. My H would not admit he had an A. I just couldn't get him to see it. At times I felt maybe he was right. Maybe I was just making too much out of it. But all the emotions I was feeling said otherwise. I found all the definitions of A I could find and I had my H read them. I read different posts, and had my H read them. I read After the Affair and now my H is reading it. <p>He was slowly coming around and then he admitted to me after our last counselling session, that it was the counsellor who made him realize/admit it was an affair (after his first individual seesion). I guess it had to be someone outside of the relationship to say it for him to believe it. <p>So, that is my advice to you. Get to marriage counselling asap. Keep coming and keep posting to this site. There are soo many people here who will help you, you will see.<p>H&S

cwmac:<p>On the face of it, your situation sounds very similar to my own. My W's second EA/PA with her OM started out of frustration with me "not listening" to her cries for attention and affection a couple of years ago. She had not had much contact with OM for several years before that, after breaking off their first EA/PA (which started as a PA not long after they started working together). The second time, the PA only happened twice, and the OM is out of state so they only met 3 times in a year and a half, but the email between them (that I found in January) was so painful to see as most of it was explicit sexual inuendos. <p>Upshot of all this is that my W's A both times was mainly emotional. That, and the fact that they were "friends" for so long, is making it very difficult for her to break it off with him. She's trying, but I still have yet to get a "no contact" agreement out of her. <p>Your W will very likely have a similarly tough time breaking off with her OM, even if they've never been physical, because the emotional attachment is usually strongest for women than it is for men. Similarly, the sexual attachment is usually stronger for men, and so it may be only a matter of time before your W "gives in" to his desires for sex out of love for this man, if she hasn't already done so. <p>The danger is the secrecy. You don't know what's going on, and she doesn't feel the need to tell you. This might lead her to do things she wouldn't normally do, because the secrecy will protect her. It also will make you crazy (it sure does me!!) with worry about what's going on. <p>Blind Sided's advice is probably the best you've gotten her so far. Try to get your W to open up. Don't make OM a big deal at first. Focus on you and her and your R together. Try to address the things that bother her to the best of your abilities. Definitely read, post, and get in to counseling, and try to get your W to go with you (eventually, if she's not willing to now).<p>Hang in there. You can make it through these ttough times!

Hi again,<p>Here's an article I found in "Makeupdontbreakup.com" Thought it might help.<p>"An emotional affair is any time you use more energy on someone else other than your partner. These are the affairs that are most dangerous — only 5 percent to 10 percent end up going to the lover and leaving their partner. In my practice, it's 2 percent. The ones that go to the lover, though, are the ones that have the emotional affair more so than the physical affair.
Everyone has to be patient. <p>The first thing the person that has committed adultery has to do — Step One — is to let you know where they are at all times. "I'm going to the grocery store, going to get a haircut, I'll be a half hour late," etc. The adulterer has to do this to assure the betrayed for the first couple of years. <p>
The second thing is that the adulterer has to say, "I have had no contact with the affair."
The third is that if the affair calls him, he has to announce it and tell you even if he didn't contact her back or speak to her. This increases the trust of your partner. <p>The fourth is you also — the betrayed — have to help the adulterer grieve for what the adulterer is missing now — for what he or she gave up. (People always hate me for mentioning this one!)
The main way to get to the forgiveness is to see equal signs between the betrayed and the adulterer. Meaning, it's either no one's fault or both people's fault. That helps you move to forgiveness because once you see equal signs, the betrayed stops obsessing and the betrayed can move to forgiveness.

The adulterer also has to allow the betrayed to throw emotional darts at him — time-limited, by appointment only, for 10 minutes (if it's a man, women can endure longer). And, the adulterer must allow the betrayed to lash out at the lover every day for 10 minutes at least once a day and promise not to defend the affair. <p>You also need to ask certain questions to be able to move on and the adulterer has to allow these questions instead of ignoring them — ignoring them causes the betrayed to obsess more. The less you tell, as an adulterer, the more the betrayed dwells.

The questions you should answer: Who was it? Where was it? How long has it been going on? When did you meet? Will you stop cheating with this person? Do you love this person? Are you going to marry this person and leave me? Who else knows? Do you still love me? <p>However, when answering these questions, do not give the gory details — that is one big mistake and does not do well for sexual healing later on. It's really important that people be aware that the ones betrayed remember this for the rest of their life, so don't tell too many details.
But again, if you don't tell enough, the more the betrayed dwells. It's a delicate balance."<p>
Hope it helps,
H&S

Get the book Torn Asunder and have her read the last chapter on EA's. It really stresses how destructive they are. My H's EA led to a PA with my former best friend. They usually do get sexual because of the intense emotional attachment. <p>Whether or not it gets physical, she is betraying you and your wedding vows. <p>Good luck

CWMAC,<p>Hi! Welcome to MB. Sorry that you have had to join this exclusive "club", but this is the place to by if there are issues in your M. This site literally saved my M.<p>My H had an EA. He also would not admit it was an A at first. Also it took him a really long time to "get it" -- to understand the depth of the pain he caused me and the impact this had and would continue to have on our M. <p>The 2 greatest assets you can have are patience and persistance. Patience because it will take a while for you WW to "get it". Persistance because sometimes you will be so tired you will want to give up. When you get frustrated or tired, come here and vent. There are so many caring, concerned people here that you will feel better through their strength and support. I know I am grateful for all of the advice I received.<p>Another thing you should do is try to figure out what ENs your WW has that you have not been meeting (and probably the OM has) and start trying to meet them -- this is Plan A. If your W will complete the ENs questionaire (found on this site), I recommend it. This will give you valuable insight into what your W's top ENs are and more importantly, the ways you can meet them that are meaningful to HER. Remember that that is what is important -- you must meet her ENs in the way that is important to her. For example, if you give her Affection in the way that you think it should be done but it is not how she wants it done, it will have no impact and you will not deposit LB$.<p>I really recommend the book Surviving An Affair (SAA) by Dr. Harley -- you can order from this site or get it from the library. Also, the website www.askpeggy.com was very helpful to give a realistic overview of the serious impact this will have on your M and the reasons not to just sweep it under the rug (this is what a lot of WS want to do after they admit to the A -- they want life to go back to normal and can't realize why the BS can't forget about things). Also the article Shattered Vows at www.findarticles.com is really helpful. I shared that with my H and it seemed to help him understand. <p>H&S had great advice about counseling. I believe it was really the IC & MC that made my H realize how serious this was and to "get it". I urge you to start counseling, even if your W will not go at this time.<p>Good luck. Hang in there. Be prepared for emotional ups & downs -- this is the rollercoaster that they talk about on this site. It is very normal. Don't feel alone. Come here when you need support.<p>Take care.<p>FHO

Hey H&S,<p>CWMAC, sorry to jump in here with a message to H&S, but just wanted to ask her how things are going. I am glad to see you posting to others -- that really helped me out to focus on the positives.<p>Hope things are going well. They are for me.<p>FHO

Thank you all for the responses. Here is more inf that might offer more clues for more feedback!<p> I have sat down with W and had that heart to heart that Blindsided talks about. I have told her that I love her and that I'm afraid I might loose her. In the same conversation, we read together excerpts from the MB sight. Posative articles like Meeting EN as well as tough ones like What is an A? Coping w/ Inf. etc etc We discussed the definition of an A. She had a very difficult time with the EA being considered an A. She reluctantly admitted that per "that" definition her R with OM would be considered an A. She continued to say that they are just "special" friends. I couldn't get a commitment out of her to drop contact w/OM per Hartley's advice. She just thinks I'm jealous of OM
I should back up and tell you that this EA all came to light about 30 days ago. I was aware that she had seen the OM at a public showing of his work. She admited that she spoke to him 1-2 times per month. Saying OM is too busy to talk with me all the time; don't be paranoid.The warning radar went off and the next day i looked at her cell phone records. Although several pages were missing from each billing the truth was more like 2-3 times per week not including v-mail messages. I have caught her in several more lies. Last weekend I found out that they have met several times for lunch. She says the OM was " there to support her when my life was at its lowest point."
Needless to say I have experienced the wake up call of a life time. I'm doing my best to be the best supplier of her EN and except when we talked about the MB programs on As I have avoided all LBers.
cwmac

W and I have filled out the EN questioanaire. It was great. I am doing my best to meet those needs. Conversation and Affection are the two that I believe OM was doing a better job at. She even says that I'm doing a fantastic job. Something like," never in my wildest dreams did I think there could be such a turn around." So i guess i'm doing something right.
Just can't seem to get that commitment that she won't see/contact OM again.

cwmac-
I'm a former WS. Your story struck a note with me, because as a WW in a long EA, I had a hard time admitting that an EA was an A.<p>This probably sounds ridiculous to you as a BS, especially if you've been reading MB and other counseling materials. I never had read anything like that. I had no concept of an "EA." I had defined an A as sex with an OP. In fact I RELIED on the definition that an A had to involve sex, since one of the pillars of my EA was my belief that it was not an A. Does that make sense?<p>I don't consider myself to be an immmoral person. I bet your wife feels the same way. What you are asking her to do is admit that she has committed adultery. This is very hard to cope with for a WS. She probably didn't MEAN to hurt you. Now she has to deal with coming to grips with the idea that she done a thing that the world (and her own morals) would define as a terrible, terrible thing (sin). So admitting this is not simple. It often redefines a person. It may cause her to question her own values, integrity, sanity. She may need help to do this, in the form of counseling.<p>The beginning of my recovery was when I acknowleged that an EA can be an A, or at least that any relationship that causes one to have to have secrets or hide conversations, meetings and depth of feelings from ones' spouse is inappropriate (and a form of betrayal). I don't know why this wasn't OBVIOUS to me when I was getting involved with OM. But I guess, after 2 years of thinking about it, I just wanted the attention from OM so badly, that I was willing to deny the reality that my relationship with OM was a form of betrayal.<p>My advice is go slow. She may need some time to let this all sink in. Don't refer to the A as an affair. Don't use the word adultery. But make it clear, as you have, that that is what you feel. Let her know that you want to fill her ENs (as it sounds like you have). MAKE TIME FOR HER. Tell her that it is YOUR job as her H to be her best friend, and try to find out how to do that for her.

Of course you are jealous of the OM!!! I bet she has spent more time talking to him than to you. What if you revealed to her that you had a special relationship with another woman? How would SHE feel? What would SHE think? JEALOUS perhaps?<p>This all sounds like "WS talk" to me. CWMAC, I'm afraid your W has been abducted by the affair aliens.<p>Stick with us. You are in for a bumpy ride. Glad you are here.<p>Bluebird

cwmac;<p>Feel for you; many of us here are/were in the same boat, and there's hope!<p>You may find some valuable information in some of the posts by ashirley (former WW) and probably in some of mine. I've gotten a lot of good answers and support. Hope these help!<p>SC<p>GQII
Main - Affairs that don't end....confused...HELP@!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017108<p>Main Post, Pg. 11, Strategy with Steve
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017108&p=11<p>I can stop comm b/w WW and OM..should I?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017275<p>Can the board help me descipher this?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017403<p>To Rebuild? or End M? How to decide
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017471<p>Can any anyone refer to a Harley practitioner in Houston?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017289<p>OK Former WSs-what convinced you of No Contact?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=017438<p>JFO
What has worked for WS to understand need for No Contact?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=001553

I'm new to this, but my advice would be to not rush the changes in your wife. I know that's counter intuitive, however until you have had time to understand how to meet her EN's, then it will be difficult to draw her back in. <p>When I had an EA (internet chatting) several years ago, I thought the biggest problem was my W's reaction. I told her, "It doesn't Mean anything", "Don't Worry", but she did worry, and did think it meant something. She was hurt, and that's when I realized the pain an EA can cause. I stopped the contact cold but now she's had her own EA/PA. That's why I'm here now, trying to sort out how to get the marriage back on track.<p>Make sure you don't rush it, and use this time to work on issues concerning yourself. At least you have control over these, and you can then be prepared to help her when it has all sunk in that what she is doing is wrong.

Thanks all for your thoughts. I especially like to hear perspective of former WW especially those who had EA and not PA. It helps me understand what might be going through my wife's mind.
Although I had previously told my wife I thought she was involved in an EA I had never given her all the evidence. Last Sunday night I couldn't take it anymore and told my wife ( I know I probably screwed up) about some of the evidence. Her reaction was concern over my pain which I think is a good sign. Of course the next question is will that finally end contact or not. We start counseling next week. Another good sign, I think.

cwmac,
I am a former WS. I had an EA for 2 years. My advice is to try to be as loving and as supportive of your wife as you can be. I'm sure that she still loves you very much. As confusing as it might sound, she also might have feelings of love for this OM as well. Treat her with respect; try not to get into the head set of spying, snooping, etc...I think it will make you crazy and make her feel untrustworthy. Since you can't watch her every second, find out every call or email, if she's the least bit sneaky, she'll get even more sneaky. Don't be mean and hateful bc that will only make her "hate" you and have all the more reasons to go to the OM. A W will have a really hard time leaving a H that she loves, enjoys being with, treats her with respect, etc...Try really, really hard... Plan for the future, try to get time alone with her, "court" her like you use to do...you need to make her feel like you are in hot persuit of HER! Give her the attention she is calling out for. She loves you, she just let her guard down and before she knew it she had fallen for this guy again. One thing I'd be adament about is that she must move towards NO Contact. No she can't have him as a friend...ever. No wiggle room here. Over time she will realize why she can't be friends with him, she'll hate that, but she'll accept it.<p>What is the OM's situation? <p>Good luck,
AS

Ashirley,
Thanks for the great advice. Fortunately bc of MB I have already put most of it in place and practice. I'm having a little trouble w/ snopping (see other thread titiled Snooping)
The OM is someone she worked with prior to our M over 19 yrs ago. At the time he was engaged as were we. I have always suspected that they might have dated if we hadn't been engaged. I have always bee a bit jealous of him. Bc of the way W would speak of him to me and others. A bit of the fog even then.
Ttbomk they have only kept in touch occassionally over the years until last year in March. Communication was spotty until September and then became very frequent. Cell phone records showed almost daily conversations or vmails. Our R has never been perfect but not coincidentally our R took a big plunge in September. Their R probably did start innocently enough as SH says with her talking to him about our R. But we all know where that can lead.
OM is married with children. W claims that they are happily married. I would dispute that as evidenced by his spending 30-90 minutes a month on the phone w/ another W. Check that W has said he is devoted to his kids. Maybe that means they danced around the topic of D and she discovered he wouldn't bc of kids. Who knows.
W to date has only admitted to things as I give her evidence so I'm not sure all has been revealed. Maybe there was a PA. The good news is she wants to immediately "move forward" to recovery but the bad news is that it's her way of saying the past is out of bounds. I'm still in the stage where I need honesty and info. I heard a good analogy that BS are like survivors of plan crashes and need to go over story again and again and retell and retell until finally one day they don't need to talk about it again.
Let me know your thoughts

cwmac,
Has your W agreed to end the EA? I wasn't sure from your postings. She has to agree to that, though that will be hard. It's always especially hard with the old friends, where there wasn't a PA, because we want to hold on to our friends and it's hard to accept and face that an old friend can really be that hazardous to a marriage.<p>Each one of us has different ways to deal with unpleasant situations. Perhaps you wife is queen of denial...if she doesn't talk about it, then it didn't really happen. I would like to talk more about my EA, with my H, but he doesn't really want to hear about it. He's just happy to know that it's over, and now time to move on. I have a hard time bringing it up bc I'm afraid it will be unpleasant, so I'm just patiently waiting for the time that he'll ask, or the time that I'll have the courage to bring it up. <p>So try to be patient with you W. It might be just too close to talk about right now...just let her know that at some time, you need to talk about it in order to bring closure to it...but you can wait until she's ready to talk...try not to push, but let her know that you can and want to listen, and you're ready whenever she's ready.

See Dubya:<p>"W to date has only admitted to things as I give her evidence so I'm not sure all has been revealed."<p>It's not surprising that you don't know the whole story. Many BSs never get all the truth.<p>"Maybe there was a PA."<p>Maybe. It's only important in that it is usually the "defining line" of an A for most people (especially those that don't know anything, like I was at the beginning!). I think, based on what you've said about how your W is reacting to you and what she's said, that there hasn't been a PA. I hope I'm right.

"The good news is she wants to immediately "move forward" to recovery but the bad news is that it's her way of saying the past is out of bounds."<p>Typical WS thinking. They don't want to face what they've done as wrong. Don't accept this, but don't push her to spill her guts about it until she's ready. Don't wait forever, though. You can't truly "move forward" until the A is "processed" to YOUR satisfaction.<p>"I'm still in the stage where I need honesty and info. I heard a good analogy that BS are like survivors of plan crashes and need to go over story again and again and retell and retell until finally one day they don't need to talk about it again."<p>Yep.

I went back and was looking at old postings and found this one. I just wanted to thank all of the posters: Want2Fixit, Spacecase, Clouds, FormerHopelessOne, Hurt&Sad, 2Long, and Blindsided. All of your advis was right on the mark especially those who said don't rush it.

Thanks so much!