Hello everyone, I have been lurking around for a month now and finally decided to jump in (I need the support). On April 3, my wife told me she wanted a separation. Initially it seemed like she was just complaining about the state of our marriage. I am a full-time Ph.D. student and she was not happy with the time I gave to school and the lack of income (I do draw a small salary and have a full scholarship). In general we had grown apart since the birth of our daughter, now 18 month old. I initially asked her if there was someone else and she said no. As time when on I began to suspect that she was involved with her boss. I now have evidence of an EA/PA but believe it only recently moved to PA. After numerous confrontations she finally admitted that she has feelings for him, but will say no more. She had planned to move out but has been unable to find a rental (the market is very tight where we live). We went to our first marriage counseling session last week and the counselor said that she had to make a decision about her other involvement before we came back since he was not going to work with someone who was not trying. I asked her about the session and she refused to say what her intentions were. Besides seeing him everyday at work she continues to call him every night from her cell phone.<p>I have been doing what a Plan A since the start and now that I have gotten over the worst of the crying with help from anti-depressants and individual counseling I am really feeling good about myself. In the past week I have seen that when she is around me and not him her attitude towards me improves. Unfortunately, I know I can’t stop her from seeing him at work, calling him, and seeing hi when she makes an excuse to go out.<p>I have had no success talking to her about our marriage, and she is unwilling to talk to me about anything significant. Right now I do not believe she has any intention of moving out and is talking about things in the future like Christmas. I guess I just don’t know how to continue waiting it out. Since it seems their relationship only just blossomed since the start of the year I wonder how long it will continue. I get the feeling like she plans to have her cake and eat it for a long time since she doesn’t want to leave her job. Any thoughts, suggestions, help…
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Welcome onwardandup...<p>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It has a lot of quick links to many of the most important MB sites...
Click here ==> General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)<p>About your post...<p>Stay strong on your Plan A...
Review the post Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.).<p>...and in the near future... read...
Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.) and Plan B - 201...<p>...not to move to it right away...
...but to work up the courage to honestly to her about the fact that your love for her will die...
...if she doesn't give up the OM!<p>Being honest is hard...
...but the truth... will (as they say)... set your free.<p>Many prayers to your tonight... and into the future.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim / NSR

Just another comment since some of you may find this funny [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] . This last weekend she actually had the nerve to make suggestions as to waht I should get her for mothers day (like she is realy acting like a mom [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] ). On top of that after we got passionate Sunday night she again went to talk to the OM on her cell phone in the closet.<p>Am I really expected to take this???

Just a quick question....My WW is going to out of town to visit her family next week. I believe her sister know what is going on and has told her she needs to end all contact with the OM. Do you think it would be wise to talk to my SIL? I guess I'm thinking she could just reinforce the fact that I am still in love with her and want to work it out. Are there any risks in reaching out???

onwardandup hi,<p>sorry about your pain. Just a couple of things to consider. <p>Your wife is screwing her boss. You might ask her what her salary is for. Is it for her work or for sexual services ?<p>You might also ask the same question of the head of the company or the shareholder? They are paying salaries to people who are screwing not working.<p>You should talk to a lawyer specialised in labour law. He may advise a harrassement suit against the company.

Her boss is the 90% owner of the small business (10 employees). He had one partner who would be appalled at the situation but doesn't have a say in things. Her boss also had a long sexual relationship with one of the secretaries in the office who still works there. I know everyone in the office and they all also have seen and like my daughter.<p>It seems obvious to me that her relationship would die if it saw the light of day (he is 46 she is 31), but i think it would be a big LB if I spread the word. As it stands now I certainly can never go to the ofice again, and I certainly will not bring my daughter there.

Please any thoughts on talking to my SIL.... Here is a draft of letter I was going to send her.<p>Dear ****,

I just wanted to drop a note and say hi. I’m not sure if you know all of the situation between Amy and me, but I think you know most of it. I am only writing to let you know that I do care deeply for Amy and still love her a lot. I want nothing more than to make an honest attempt to save my marriage and be a wonderful husband to your sister. I have been very focused on the things that I did to contribute to the problems in our marriage and I am committed to being a better person whether I am with Amy or not. I think she sees my efforts but I do not know what else to do. <p>Unfortunately, at this time Amy is not willing to take the steps to see if we can have a relationship together. I realize I can not change the way she feels or the things that she is doing that are creating a larger gap between us. I just hope she realizes that the gap is getting bigger not smaller. The marriage councilor stated that she had to make a decision before he would work with us. I asked her that night about the decision and she did not respond. I have not brought up the subject again.<p>I am only writing to let you know how I feel and hope we could talk. I will be at home all day on Saturday if you want to reach me or you can leave a message on my cell phone

onward and up<p> I know your hurting , but I dont think causing a seen and embarrassing your wife will help you... it will drive her away. Gossip is such an ugly thing and it will be hard to gain respect back for you if you talk about her in a bad way. <p> I think it would be a big LB. Now that being said.. the letter to your SIL was nice and not damaging. But you may think twice about involving family.. that is not always a good thing to do. Your counselor would be better to confide in.
And yes you should get her a mothers day present.. she is still your wife and the mother of your child and you are still living with her. Show her you love her even though you are hurting and that you want to work on your marriage.
Did you and she fill out the hn/hn's questionaire. It really does help to understand your partner better.
I am sorry you are hurting, but acting out will only hurt you in the end, and your baby.
People forget that when they have a child thier actions effect them as well. She is hurting your child now.. it will not do any good for you to do the same.
Hang in there, I am sure your studies make this trying time even more difficult. Good luck.

Thanks for the thoughts. I only wanted to share my feelings with my SIL so that her family knows how I feel and doesn't just hear my WW's foggy comments. Maybee I could send the letter and just leave it that she could call if she wants to talk to me.<p>Yes she filled out an emotional needs questionair and has been reading SAA. She ranked me at the bottom in almost all categories except appearence (the OM isn't that attractive) and support for the family (I spend much more time taking care of our daughter). I can't seem to break though on the conversation piece since the OM is completely filling that need.

Conversation was my biggest need, and my husband does not speak much.. at least not to me and the OM man worked hard on filling that need.
I think if you feel you need to let your sister in law convey your love to your wife in a respectable way, it cant hurt. She will no doubt tell your wife how distressed you are and maybe hearing it from someone other than you will help her. Your wife may not say anything to her family knowing she is wrong, and family doesnt always see both sides.. so be carefull.
Does the OM know that you know about him?

My WW knows that I know, so I'm sure that she has told the OM about this. The talk all day at work and on her cell phone at night.<p>He does know me and we have been friendly in the past and gone out as a group socially. I used to take my daughter to visit the office when I was not in school, but i can't bring myself to be in his presence. He was even at my daughters first birthday party and it is all can do to not burn the gift that he got for her (she wouldn't notice..but my WW would and it would be a big LB so I will not do that. It just makes me so angry that she has to share everything with him and nothing with me. I do want to talk and have revealed all of my feelings and thoughts to her, but she is unwilling to talk.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: onwardandup ]</p>

well I dont know what to say, I can tell you he is older so he probably has some influence on her and some control If she is living with you I find it hard to believe she stays on the phone at night with him, and that she does this with your knowledge.
I understand your feelings about the gift, And the protection of your child.. this is a very normal feeling and so many of us have experienced this.
I actually had one of the women my husband was with at my baby shower.. But what could I say it was a suprise for me and the other women didnt know, so I sat there and smiled with 40 women in the room and her, and when I got home I must have screamed at my husband till two in the morning for allowing this to happen to me. <p> Sounds to me as if this OM has some control over your wife, he is older and probably tells her what she should and should do about alot of things. I guess it will be up to you to decide on plan B, but you need to think about your self as well.

I thnik that she originally started talking to him about the things in our marraige and the relationship took off from there. He did give her a big raise this year. What I don't think she understands is that he now has an interest in this relationship and his advice is not unbiased. I have told her this but she doesn't want to listen. <p>In terms of the phone calls, we are sleeping in separate rooms and when she goes to bed she closes the door and hides in her closet and gets on the cell phone. I have walked in when they are on the phone and I can see the closet light on from outside every night.<p>I realize that trying to stop her is a major LB but it drives me crazy that she continues to do this. If she stoped the calls she would just see him at work anyways. At least I can monitor that she is still talking to him every night. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

onwardup<p>I can understand how angry this must make you, I am so sorry this is happening, Will your wife continue marriage counseling with you? I cant help but think if she wants to go to marriage counseling, she must have feelings left for you and is not really ready to leave. <p> I am not as strong as you I would have been LB'ing all over the place.

I talked to her about going back to counseling, but the counselor stated that she had to make a decision about the OM. He stated that he wants to help us work on our marriage, but that if she can't give up the OM she would not be giving the marriage a fair chance. I agree with this position. So while I am willing to go back to counseling, she has a barrier in that she doesn't seem willing to give up her new 'friend'. By the way he is divorced in addition to the previous relationship with someone else in the office. Sounds like a great guy.

what she doesnt understand is this will not be his last A. Someone new and younger will come along and she will be out the window, and you might be suprised to find there are others on that list as well. <p> She is still in the fog, however I think you will have to decide, maybe letting her see what it is like with out you in time will clear some of that FOG away. <p> Does your counselor think you should give her a time limit and then move forward.

I have not talked to the marriage councelor about this, but I plan on leaving a message to see if we should meet alone. My individual counselor is focused on what I am doing and feeling and has suggested that I not focus on what WW does. This is hard to do since I want to save the marriage. My counselor is happy with how I have been handling the situation, but says that any decision is up to me about what to do.<p>My counsdlor did suggest that I see an attorney since my wife has allready taken this step. I have made an appointment for a consultation. I don't want to start the process but I need to protect myself, my daughter, and my academic career.<p>I need to class now but will check back in tonight.

The counselor is right. There is 0 chance of recovery taking place while she is conducting an affair. So, no chance of recovery at this time, period.<p>I share Dr. Harley's opinion that marital recovery is next to impossible if there is continued contact of ANY kind and that the extraordinary precautions needed to prepare for recovery include finding a different job if the OP is a co-worker. Sometimes even moving to a different town or state is necessary to effect a good marital recovery.<p>So, you do not have the choice of recovery right now. But you, all by yourself, can follow Plan A, and that is limited in duration (the general recommendation being 6 months). It is designed for you to establish new skills and habits that help you to be a better partner. It is designed to give you something constructive to do while you await the natural demise of the A if the WS won't follow the extraordinary precautions suggested in SAA and end contact with the OP.<p>Plan A sets the stage for either Recovery or Plan B. Plan A can be very tortuous at times because of the emotional toll it takes on the BS, but you are going to be suffering regardless. At least with a good Plan A, you can use those six months constructively. By the time you've done the hard work of Plan A, you will be much more prepared emotionally for the no contact of Plan B. If you go to Plan B or some other form of separation prematurely, you will be going through a much more intense withdrawal period from the WS than if you had done Plan A first.<p>And if Plan A ends because the A has died and the WS is ready to do the work of recovery by following the extraordinary precautions, then that, of course, will also bring an end to the worst of the suffering.<p>I know Plan A is tough, but I don't regret doing it, and I think all the other Plan A veterans here share that feeling with me.<p>As Dr. Harley says, Plan A is "simple to understand, but difficult to implement." There are only 3 basic features to Plan A:<p>

• Set a time limit.
• Avoid LBs at all costs.
• Try to meet the WS's ENs.

<p>The easiest thing is to start with the first thing--setting a time limit. For me, that included a long-term goal, which was the recommended 6 months. But considering the agony I was in, this seemed absolutely impossible to achieve, so I set an interim date of getting past Christmas, which was 3 months, thinking that for the kids' sake I could at least endure it until then.<p>But many times in between, I had to set even more interim goals like one week, or even one day. Can I get through today? I found that I could make it through one more day, and then maybe when the next day came, I thought maybe I could last a few more days. Pretty soon reaching all these little goals added up to a 4-month Plan A before I made the decision to go to Plan B. When I attempted to do that, my H refused to move out and opted for recovery instead.<p>Then, you start being aware of and avoiding the big 3 LBs (angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands). We can help you identify those in your interactions with your W, but your best clues of what to avoid will come from observing your W's reactions and responses to you. Stop doing whatever repels her and do more of what attracts her to you.<p>As you get better at observing your W, you will be able to get a handle on what her most important ENs are. She may have even told you what they are in the past or may even tell you currently. Trying to meet a WS's ENs while they are conducting an A or in withdrawal is the most difficult part of Plan A. First, because our Taker cannot stand it, so many times we have to go against our instincts, and second, because many times the WS doesn't want the BS to meet their ENs. In the long run it is beneficial to try, though.<p>The important thing to keep in mind is the order of priority. Because we have limited energy and emotional resources available during the duress of an ongoing A, it is better to focus all your energy on avoiding LBs until you get that fully under control. That goal has the better cost/benefit ratio.<p>If working on the EN component causes the LB component to suffer, then drop the EN component until the LBs are under control again. If you're going to mess up, it's much better to neglect the ENs than to have an angry outburst, spout off a disrespectful judgment, or make a selfish demand. You have to plug all the leaks in her Love Bank before you have any hope of making deposits with meeting ENs.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I guess my biggest problem is that she continues to carry on the relationship and refuses to talk about it (I have not asked since last thursday) while believing she has a right to live in the same house and act as if she is just trying to figure out what she is going to do. She tries to be nice to me and doesn't start any substantive conversations - acts like we are roomates. All of her real conversations are with the OM. I plan on continuing plan A for a while but when she talks she states that she is planning on staying on her job forever. Since I know this is unacceptable for me and have told her that, it hurts that she seems to think this is not important.

Sometimes WW's just can't see the man they are having the affair with for who he really is. My exMM was such a player, I don't think the attention of one woman will ever make him happy. For some reason, men like that are seen as a challenge to some women, and they will persue and persue to be "the one". <p>If he is older, maybe your wife see's him as more established, more mature. Is she thinking about the fact that in 4 years, this man will be 50? Probably not.. <p>With my exMM, age wasn't a factor, he was actually a couple of years younger than me. Take away the age and you still have the same basic person...<p>You have to put your foot down, I can't believe she is carrying on like this right in front of you. It is abuse.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: findingmywayback ]</p>