Hi Relate, Seahorse, Fishwife and all my advisers,

It's really embarrassing to tell what it looks like when we are home.
Yes, he does not want to talk -not even about the weather or whatever neutral subject I pick. In the best case he'll cut the conversation at the first sentence ( usually by "I don't know"). Or he'll just give me an angry look and ask "What do you mean"). Doesn't want to talk his/mine work day either.

Most of the time he naps or is on his computer or on the phone. When I rented assortment of movies hoping for at least sitting in the same room togeteher and watching, it ended up by him stating he seen that, doesn't want to like that, the ones he watched was when I was not around ( he's been recovering for a week from a surgery). And when I asked about any specific one he'd like to see - usual "I don't know"...

And yes he hates if I follow him from room to the yard if he sits there - looks at me coldly and sometimes even says no- for instance if I touch his hand on sit beside him.

I made him meals when he stayed home but pretty soon he wanted to make tea by himself, ignoring me if would start making one for him. Yet would still not tell me if I just make disgusting tea or what.

Dinners I make are swallowed in silence unless kids are eating too, then they might exchange few sentences. If kids say they like the recepie, he will not confirm nor deny. If I ask if he liked it he'll say "Yes" or "not especially". I think he did notice I cook moore than before and put more effort and thought in it.

Singing or humming is a big no no. Honestly - no skill on my side, plus in the past if in the car I would get carried away and hum to a tune, he'd tell me to stop.

I dislike weekends because he does not want me to accompany him with shopping or whatever he does. The at home routine is the same, just fills a longer day.
However he does invite me for Sunday dinner, even recently. I do dress up a bit then and try to strike a neutral talk then - rarely works.

See, one of MY problems is that I am generally passive and quite pessimistic, so running into a wall like this is especially devastating for me.

I think more and more about counseling for myself.

I know I have many issues on my own and contributed to bad M environment before, but I do realize and work on improving myself, the process would be faster and more focused with ANY feedback though.

Re: conversation in the signature line - in Jan/Feb that was really the case. After so many years of physical and emotional distance he was warm and I opened up with my insecurities instead of hiding my feelings behind my armor.
Then it ended, but again - he did approach me on D-day with honest but painful talk.
I will keep the signature for now.

While in Plan A without overdoing it I try occasionally verbally inform him about my feelings of pain or hurt, and if I feel happier, that too. Because otherwise I feel that it would be no different than surviving this time in my protecive shell which before just led him to seek "a friend" and "soulmate" and conversation partner.

Well I can't become a "soulmate" overnight, what I try to show in my actions that at least I can be trusted - like a friend - even if he does not see me as one - that's why I don't run around and share the secret. I offered a card encouraging communication a while back. I hoped that maybe small talk and non emotional talk about his vacation ( like sightseeing he did, food he liked etc) would help me learn the nice way to talk to him in the event the subject will be more intimate and emotional.

And I did tell him that conversation is a skill I work on improving and that's why I miss our morning coffee outings from before his trip.

I avoid LBing cause friends do not LB. I am afraid that I might LB unintentionally since I know so little for sure about his likes and dislikes. I realize that his preferences might have changed over the years (I know it did in music).

I also got better ( while he was gone) in communicating with our teen daughters. It is a task on its own, but I am better in not overreacting, being calmer and genarally less controlling ( though it comes VERY hard to me, especially when I feel so insecure about the future of our family and they grow and push for independence more). I know that in the past he dissaproved of my way of handling daily issues ( yet he did not offer much support either).

Also as much as I can I try to smile and be in a pleasant mood despite of all the stress from M and some issues at work. I suspect my pessimism and worrying is a LB for him too.

At work since I do need my currentjob I try HARD to forget home problems in order to do my job and do it well. I also gradually become more assertive and setting boundaries there, partly because for my self esteem I needed the feeling that I am not powerless, and partly because this is an exercise for me if we reconcile and need to rebuild our R on improved rules.

My office environment is atypical, very small, very silent, very focused (legal work), case confidentiality infuses everything. But I am good in what I do for my bosses, they do praise me occasionally which again fills my Admiration need, I am rarely criticised there, good communication skills are essential to my duties, and I am more assertive re pay - can't complain too much about it now. I am hoping to get a good review in Oct - moneywise too.

I guess it would help my image in his eyes if I stopped being so uptight and stressed out about everything, and just relax and loosen up. It is diffult for me. I was raised to be responsible and reliable, to solve my own problems, not to cause problems to others, and I might need those skills in the future. But that probably also means that I am no "fun".

We have one more problem - I dislike making money decisions. I can provide all the calculations and financial evaluation - I just HATE the responsibility that comes with money.
I am frugal, I do our recordkeeping and taxes, can research investing etc. but my heart is just not in it. I think he expects me to be some kind of investing whiz and I don't feel up to par. I liked that he was a decision maker.

He always filled my FN, and some, his work enabled us to buy our first home almost 4 years ago (we immigrated here with hopes and education but nothing else 11 years ago), I began working as soon as I legally could, I feel proud succeeding on my own in a new country/new language/new company. I think he still expects me to achieve more though. I could do more but need some "fuel" like admiration, pats on the back for good work so far, thanking for the little money I make compared to him.

Anyway, another long post, but on my own thread so I am excused.

I enjoyed the Friday concert and did not get sappy because they played loud and strong stuff and omitted the song that might make me cry.

Wish me stamina for the loong weekend, please.
FBOW

FBFW,

You are a nice girl and a good wife. He will have a hard time leaving you. I hope you are having a nice weekend.

- Relate

<small>[ September 01, 2002, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Thank you, Relate.

I am afraid that even if H does see me as a nice girl, he is not "in love" with me. I can't even say "anymore" for sure. Yes, it might be difficult for him to leave, but what if he really felt stuck for the past 10-15 years because it was hard for him to leave? I know he loves our kids and they love him too.
I don't want the R we had (even though I adjusted my expectations thinkig that maybe "happily ever after" WAS a fairy tale stuff and I cannot say I was unhappy) because now I am aware he is perfectly able to offer intimacy, passion, constant attention, sensitivity and helpfullness - just not toward me. I want it all too. I am willing to earn it, I do not demand it. I need some guidance and patience too.

I am just very sorry that we did not communicate properly and this is my first and last real opportunity to rebuild our R. I say I am sorry because my reactions in early M led to H loosing his interst in sharing feelings and I am guilty of avoiding conflict and not seeking help out earlier.

I am doing so so today. Not horrible but not well either. Pretty much getting out of sight and not approaching with anything. Actually I did want to discuss one financial Kiplinger article but he refused. He calls constantly now - not even waiting for me to go to sleep or leave the house.
It hurts horribly - he spends several hours on the phone and does not want to grant me 5 minutes of non-relation talk a day...

There is one worse stage - one which I will not survive again - when he withdraws completely - not a single look, word, interest, will not eat anything prepared by me. There were several episodes like this in the early years - the longest lasted about two months - at first I reacted with terrible guilt, apologies, depression, later I become numb and withdrawn myself, building a wall to protect me and living in my own world.
I thought we were doing better because the last episode happened over 8 years ago. We never talked/he never told me what caused those. I always assumed that that was something I did or said that hurt him.
FBOW

FBFW,

Looks like you've been in an eternal plan A. What if you try some of the 180 degree strategies? Nothing too risky, but some small unexpected things that will make him sit up and take notice once or twice a week.

One thing that might help is if you take up an interest, say one evening class per week, doing something he might find stimulating or interesting. Looks like he is looking for some stimulation, because you might have grown too familiar and may seem boring to him. There is an old saying in my home country that says "even the feathers of the rooster you see every day seem white" (They have fiery red and orange feathers.)

- Relate

Hi.

I am not sure about 180 stuff.
I might try it, but not now. Right now I am plainly exhausted.
If he escalated contact with OW beacause she insists he'll make a decision so be it. I am not going to help him by being nasty or clingy or begging or threating with ultimatum. If he'll decide to move out - OK but he will have to tell kids first and why. And his parents. Then I will tell mine. And then I will tell my friends.

For now I will be praying for strenghth and endurance and will try to seek out things that bring joy to me and our girls.

I still love him way too much to go into plan B.

I will protect my self esteem. Remind me please that it might be fog or withdrawal or guilt that makes him hurt with his actions and inactions.
I will try NOT to take it personally. I will still continue fixing myself in areas I know I need improvement.

I still trust him enough to doubt that he is just buying time while something else is brewing behind my back. I am aware that I might be in for a bad surprise. I don't feel that he does care and wants to protect me and kids anymore (he seemed to care during D-day talk.

FBOW

FBFW,

I think the main thing is not to focus on her. He is still with you. I don't think the psychology of the situation is such that he is deliberately planning anything with her. If he wants to leave he will just up and leave; there's no need to plan. He hasn't done that because he does not want to.

Right now he's not allowing you to fulfil his top two EN's - SF and recreational companionship. But I think that you are an attractive spouse, a good wife giving him domestic support, and you give him admiration if not adoration. So he is still safely home with you.

What you can try to do is start fulfilling the other two needs in light, almost unnoticable ways. Taking a class that will arouse his interest is a way to attract his attention for recreation, and fits in well with your need to improve yourself. Besides you are being proactive, working to attract him back, instead of just working at keeping despair at bay.

That was just an example. You can brainstorm a bit here. What are his other interests? Drama, photography, film, sport, golf?

- Relate

Hi,

I decided few days ago that I needed to ask H what his thoughts since D-day were and what did he decide to do.

I approached him several times with an invitation to talk, tried not to be too pushy but to let him know that I am serious.

Well about an hour ago we talked.

The bottom line he returned home from the vacation and is still with me not because he wants to but because he feels forced by me. He is deeply unhappy, has no hope for a future for us, does not love me, loves OW, does not want counseling, does not want or need any of his EN to be filled by me.

He does not know what I did wrong, which needs I failed to fill in the past and now, doesn't think this matters at all, does not remember how he felt for me before marriage.

I talked about the EN concept and falling in and out of love and that I am sorry for whatever needs I did not recognize or not fill for him.

He does not want to read HNHN or other books and I sensed the EN concept seems to him to oversimplify or at least not mirror his experience with love.

He thinks I am conducting an experiment on him and I feel like he doesn't want me to bother.
He seems to believe me that I do love him and this not an act or play or trick though.

I told him that I do have hope for better future for us and that I am committed to change my behaviour to aid it( although I agreed with him that it is impossible to change somebody character).I told him it would be so much easier for me if we would identify problem areas, otherwise I am just guessing.

He was very tired by this conversation, I am too.

I am devastated that he is willing to live his life with me with no hope for better time and no resolve to ask for an outside help ( no counseling, no books, no help from me).

I know I will continue plan A for my own sake.
It will be quite limited though, since he openly refuses any effort from me to fill his needs. When I asked him how he imagines our day-to-day life he said "I'll manage somehow". Myself I am not sure.

I asked him too if I asked him to leave would he still believe me that I love him and want to be with him. He said yes.

So I guess plan B is a valid option if I will be unable to continue plan A.

I worry about everything so much.
He confirmed though that he can love only one person at a time.

We married young. I truly loved him them and I do now, and I know first hand about unfulfilled needs and withdrawal and just living day-to-day myself. But I never stopped loving him ( probably beacause I never let myself to fall in love with somebody else) and after few bad years, my love to him resurfaced stronger, especially in the beginning of this year, when he was so much more warmer and open to me.

Should I be hopefull that he might be the same?
I am really afraid that OW is his first true love, not me, and because of that he is right what I do does not matter at all.

I am soo tired. I kept everything to ourselves, not even kids are aware of the situation, I do not think I forced him to come back other than cosistently stating that I do love him.

I am not thinking clearly right now.
Please pray for him to see hope and for me to reach the way out.
FBOW

PS I wonder how OW copes with the whole situation.

Hi,
an update.

Matters at home have not changed, if anything, then for worse.
The sad part is kids noticed and approached me and I was not sure what to tell them. Could not give them even current status. So I assured them I love them, so does their father, that we are having problems right now but right now I don't know what the solution will be. And that the solution might not be the one of one's desire.

Those talks happened ten days and about a week ago ( they approached me separately).

About five days ago I told my H about those conversations and again asked if he can share more of his non-emotional life openly with me since I do need it and that maybe we should discuss together what to tell children.

He said he doesn't understand why and that I should not worry about him, his trips etc.

Well I love him and I do worry and just out of simple logistics of taking care of houshold I'd like to know about his overnight trips as much in advance as he does.

Today he told me he will go THERE. Where OW lives. To take care of some family/financial business. Next week.

Well, I decided I will tell him right away what I was thinking of telling him in just such a secenario.

That I love him and that I believe with some effort and maybe outside help we can have happiness in our marriage, that I like his character still despite the hurtful actions. And to come back only if he chooses/wants to, not because he is forced to. And that I will wait for his desire to work on our future and if desires not to come back so be it.
And I said that I will not give him any cards or contact him during this trip if this makes him feel forced. I gave him my ring too. I said that whatever I was telling him since January is still true and valid.

I wished I were calmer, but this was hard talk for me. I was emotional but composed myself quickly. The whole thing lasted probably 3 minutes. I asked if explained myself clearly since I stink in conversing with him and if he has anything to ask me.
He said no, not at this time.
I did not give him plan B letter since I am afraid he would see it as another "game" or "experiment" I play on him. But plan B it will be if stays there.

And afterwards we carried our daily routine.
I am calmer now since I know I had to tell him this in order for me to carry on, for myself and children.

If I have to stay here and raise kids by myself, with family and friends far away, I need to be strong, healthy and sure that I will cope. Also to be sure that I am able to choose actions and words with reason. That my actions and skills and needs matter. That I am able to communicate and fill somebody's need and respond constructively to criticism, and receive praise, too. And share common hopes and desires for future. And that I do possess some skills and features of value to the other person. For now, there are my kids that I will concentrate on.
And current situation makes it harder and harder for me to cope myself and also to know that kids are burdened too, and that I promised not to share any of it with family or friends.

For the next few days till his departure I will concentrate on work.
Probably will vent here as well. Will see.

FBOW

Hi FBOW, just updated on you. It sounds very depressing. Can I ask who you promised to not to tell family/friends to? Does anyone around you know what is going on? I think you should tell someone you trust, you need support.

I think this is a very difficult situation to be in, where he is in the house with you. As much as I hated it when H left, it has been easier as I don't have all the 'where is he' 'why isn't he home' stuff. I don't HAVE to deal with it if I don't want to.

Have you any thoughts on what your plans may be? Not wanting you to fulfill EN's is typical WS stuff. Can I advise you to 'do' don't 'say'. Don't talk anymore about the books or the MB stuff unless he asks. Educate him by doing it, show him the way, lead by example its the best way and he will believe you. This will take time.

I am really glad you've started your thread again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Hi Seahorse,
thank you for you post.
I did not post much because not much was happening.
Re your earlier questions, my understanding is the OW is at least 10-12 years my junior.

Re the promise not to discuss our problems was my voluntary declaration to my H, so he could decide what he wants without any outside pressure. Based on my previous experience confiding in somebody close to you may bring not only too much advice, but also unsolicited actions, done with the best intentions, but that could backfire badly. I wanted to avoid that. Besides I figured if by chance we reconcile, I do not want others to know the details of our R.

That said, 6 months have passed and I am getting exhausted by keeping straight face, and I guess, loosing the act slowly ( kids. as the closest observers, realized something is wrong). Luckily (?) our family lives overseas and coworkers/friends here in town are not too close. I have a girlfriend within long distance phone call which can support me by listening, and won't act or gossip, but it is not the same as a hug. I was glad to visit her few weeks ago.
You know, a day or two after the D-day when I was still in shock and soo down and crying and sleepless, I just went into some insurance office, saw a friendly, middle-aged women clerk, and just asked her to please hug me. She did and I left thanking her. And I went for a confession but did not really want nor received help/advice there( I mean from priest, not spiritual).
I can't tell my Mom/Dad. They would worry to death and they are the action people. Plus they are really close to my inlaws. Besides that would really push my H away. And I think knowing that they worry would just add burden, not help me anyway.
Re my plans - as I wrote, I am going to wait about two weeks after he leaves for THERE before telling kids we had to separate and the rest of the family - if they call - that he left and if they have questions they should ask him because I am not ready or willing to discuss it now.
Then if he doesn't return, there will be plan B ( i.e. I won't contact him unless emergency). I still believe and trust him he will remain decent father and will suggest solution for raising kids ( both emotional and financial). I plan on using email rather than third party contact since we will be thousands of miles apart.

If he'll be back - I asume he'll heard me - it should mean that he wants to be back - and we'll go from there. I will consider any suggestions he might have as long as he will be communicating his feelings and ideas to me ( bad or good), not the OW.

Trust me, I talked about EN and MB way just twice - once back in March, way before he told me what's going on, but when I sensed the increasing distance, and the second time in September, about a month after his return, when I needed to understand what this means - he came back physically to our home, but is even more distant and unapproachable than right after the D-day ( his response was nothing changed lovewise, he does not want to be with me, but he felt forced by me into coming back because I told him I love him, I gave him cards, and I wanted him to return.

After that exchange I limited my invites for conversation on neutral subjects ( movies, business, food etc) since they were rejected anyway. I also stopped calling or emailing him almost completely ( and before that those calls/emails were again non-R, just general Hi, just read this, did you hear about this new gadget, I invited neighbors over - will you be home Saturday etc).
I refrain from LBing, just once mentioned that his long hours on phone/computer do bother me, I cook and ask him to cook occasionally ( he makes great fish and pasta dishes), I say Goodmorning and Goodnight, once a month maybe I ask if he might consider sleeping upstairs.
I try not to be in the same room with him too long as this was causing him to leave anyway and this was very draining to me. Generally trying hard to fill his needs ( whatever I perceive he has and let me fill -sex, converstaion, RC are out of the question right now) without crossing the line of "Do not bother me, I will manage". So I do laundry, iron when need is, record and pay bills, bought him new dress shirt and pants for his business trips. Last week he actually ate breakfast I made - before he would just shower and leave early for work. Unfortunately he declined our morning coffee outings soon after D-day.
I stopped asking for patting me on my shoulder before I left for work since it seemed to annoy him too much and as forced did not do much to me anyway.
I do suggest him to do something with kids occasionally, he usually plans with them on their own, I am usually not involved or invited to participate.

I care more about my appearance but with no feedback I might be taking wrong direction. So I don't know if he likes my slightly shorter and redder hairstyle or pants instead of skirts I've been wearing forever. I have to stop chocolate as it reversed some of the infidelity diet effect that I liked, but on the other hand it was my crutch when I felt very down.
Quite frankly I don't think he currently cares at all what I do or how I look. I do it rather for myself so I can tell I am not in total limbo. I am really proud that I improved contact with kids by their own, willful admission.
I am still setting boundaries at work, with so-so results. It is very hard for me to be professional at work while my mind is really into one thing only. I realize that I have to, so I won't ruin this job.

Well, enough for tonight. This thread is more like my diary rather than interactive forum. That's OK, I feel writing down helps to relieve my tension somewhat.

And just like your doggie, my cats provide companionship too, and generally they do not mind my touch or petting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
FBOW

Hi to all,
he is packing now. So far I am eerily calm. I wonder if he asks me to drop him off at the airport.
I did not ask a thing about his flight back or airline he's taking or where exactly is he going, I don't even know if this is another business trip or if he just misses OW too much. I only know that he can and probably will meet OW again.
I am sad I have to go thru this the third time. The first time I knew he will be back, but also I knew he'll see OW. The second, long trip was supposed to be about making a decision. It wasn't. He did not stay there but his return was not of his choice either -so he told me.

I hope he listened to me this time. I pray that he will be willing to return but also if not I know we will manage. Nobody noticed I don't have my wedding ring on ( I never took it off for over 15 years).
Kids think it's another usual business trip. I have to play along till the end of November - he's trip were usually up to this long.

I guess I will be venting my anxiety here a lot.
I will smile but probably will not attempt to kiss him farewell. And no farewell card either. And no calls or emails from me.
I can't help but I do worry when he flies and the perspective of not knowing anything is scary.
I have to acknowledge that many things will seem scary to me but I will have to deal with them anyway. I am so lonely.
Till tomorrow
FBOW

HI FBOW, I feel you pain, it is very hard to watch them pack and even help them do it. This will not be an easy time for you at all initially, but you may find it easier when he's gone to relax and start to think about where you go from here.

Initally for me the separation was difficult, but after some time I was glad that the affair was no longer in my face as I couldn't stop it. I found I appreciated the time to myself to collect my thoughts without the worry of where he was. I didn't know where he lived, he wouldn't tell me so the only way I could contact him was email or phone (and he would never answer it).

I think you have no other choice now but to look at what you need. Of course you'll worry about what he's going to do, but try to think about FBOW and the kids.

I think the plan re not contacting him is probably a good idea initially, let him come to you. He will miss you and the kids FBOW, count on it. He would not be human if he didn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to wait about two weeks after he leaves for THERE before telling kids we had to separate and the rest of the family - if they call - that he left and if they have questions they should ask him because I am not ready or willing to discuss it now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a good idea if you not ready to talk, don't talk, its probably all too raw. Also, you are putting the responsibility for this situation back where it belong, with him, let him tell them, but if they ask you, consider telling them the truth. I decided fairly early on that I wouldn't lie for H, it would only enable him in the whole thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I care more about my appearance but with no feedback I might be taking wrong direction. So I don't know if he likes my slightly shorter and redder hairstyle or pants instead of skirts I've been wearing forever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as you like what you see, then it dosen't matter. If you feel good in yourself it will show through and be attractive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to stop chocolate as it reversed some of the infidelity diet effect that I liked, but on the other hand it was my crutch when I felt very down.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its good you can recognise this. What would you need in place of chocolate to help you (that's non food)? Anything you need to help you is within you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Quite frankly I don't think he currently cares at all what I do or how I look. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Benn there. Unfortunately, in the midst of full blown A, this is very true.

If you need to vent, come and vent. JFO is sometimes a little slow so if you really need help with something and you're not getting enough replies, try a post on GQII every now and then.

Hello FBOW,

It has been a long time since you started coming here to MB. I wish things had gotten better for you and not worse.

I (probably like many others) have read your thread from time to time but have really wondered if I could be of any use to you at all. I have just read it over again and I just want to cry for you. The one bright spot is your willingness to work on things, and that you have never given up. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for how you have handled this very difficult time in your life.

I have to leave right now but I will come back and talk to you a little more.

SS

Hi StillSeeking,
thank you for checking on me.
You asked why I use this board- well- it is pretty much the only place I share my true situation and thoughts and worries and fears and hopes.
I do not expect detailed advice, because I realize I am ultimately the one making decisions and taking responsibility for that. What this site helped me tremendously though is that it put my personal situation in perspective - I am hardly the first person having issues in marriage, not the last one, not in the worst situation either.
Reading here made me more aware that even if I were perfect, I do not control the world around me, and can't take responsibility for everything what's happening.
I learned to strive to do the best I can so I won't be ashamed that I could have done something but chose not to.
This site shows me options I would never thought about on my own. Some suggestions I am still reluctant to try - like IC and antiD, but I might eventually.
It releases my tension sometimes just to write down my feelings.
It helped me when I lay sleepless and alone to read here other than cry and hope he'll get off the phone/internet soon.
It helped me to remember about my children, unaware and caught in between, about life realities, like keeping a job, and maintaining my health and image.
It did not give me hope for my M, but it did make me think that even if my M ends despite my wishes and efforts, I will need to carry on, and hopefully with aid of plan A and B it will not be as impossible as it seemed to me.
Of course I hurt badly, and the sympathy here helps, I do not want though to appear as a martyr, because I am just following what I think is the best plan A for myself.
I am proud that usually I am not hysterical, that I am calm when I am not alone, that I am still able to function on a somewhat normal level at work, that my relationship with children is better than ever, that I refrained so far from confiding in family memebers, that I don't seek R proofs, that (despite sometimes tremendous urge) I decline to look at H documents or contact the OW.
I feel bad that I am unable to detach my fears and distrust from other areas of our M, and it shows. I struggle with weight - I don't want to regain what I lost thru stress and would make me feel as one more failure.
I need support when I crave sweets to better my mood.
What I'd love to see is more practical ways of filling EN of a person who avoids any needs filled by me. How to show caring without being too pushy.
As I said before, I do not want to hide myslef behing a protective barrier to spare my feeling beacuse this although worked for me for a while, it backfired as our M was lacking any openess and communication - which I am sure led to his A.
I am thankful for prayers and thoughts.
That's why, SS, I appreciate your posts.
FBOW

I started coming here the end of January 2002, and I found what I was looking for and my W and I have improved our marriage. It pains me that so many have troubles, I suppose I was in my own little world and didn't realize what an epidemic infidelity is in the world.
hardly the first person having issues in marriage, not the last one, not in the worst situation either.
Yes, that's what I mean. I wish you were the last, but you are most assuredly not.

It releases my tension sometimes just to write down my feelings. It helped me when I lay sleepless and alone to read here other than cry and hope he'll get off the phone/internet soon.
Actually that's a really good thing, I t helps me in my efforts to improve my own M when I read, but sometimes others pain is so bad that it actually causes tension. Oh well.

It helped me to remember about my children, unaware and caught in between, about life realities, like keeping a job, and maintaining my health and image. It did not give me hope for my M, but it did make me think that even if my M ends despite my wishes and efforts, I will need to carry on, and hopefully with aid of plan A and B it will not be as impossible as it seemed to me.
What do you see in your future? I just skimmed your thread and I might have missed something, but I can't see where you have discussed what your plans are. ( SS thinks a minute) - no lets see, you did say that you would probably separate a few weeks after he leaves, but what then? See what happens and make further adjustments?

Of course I hurt badly, and the sympathy here helps, I do not want though to appear as a martyr, because I am just following what I think is the best plan A for myself. I am proud that usually I am not hysterical, that I am calm when I am not alone, that I am still able to function on a somewhat normal level at work, that my relationship with children is better than ever, that I refrained so far from confiding in family members, that I don't seek R proofs, that (despite sometimes tremendous urge)
Wow, you are really doing pretty well. I often wonder how well I would do if I were in your place, ( OK, with a WW, not a WH, since I am a man, that would be odd.) I wonder If I could do as well as you and Seahorse are doing.

I feel bad that I am unable to detach my fears and distrust from other areas of our M, and it shows. I struggle with weight - I don't want to regain what I lost thru stress and would make me feel as one more failure.
I struggle with weight also, ever since I broke my ankle 20 years ago. I can't run now, and walking hurts, as does riding a bike, and swimming. My W started going to Weight Watchers last spring and I have started eating what she eats and have lost 30 lbs. Another 20 or so and I will be in pretty good shape. Only bad thing is the expense, but it works, so I shouldn't complain. It is hard to maintain good feelings about ourselves when we are not as we think we should be. I hope you know that you still have great worth no matter the weight. If you don't believe me, ask your children how much you are worth to them.

I need support when I crave sweets to better my mood.
Yes, exactly. I thought I was the only one.

What I'd love to see is more practical ways of filling EN of a person who avoids any needs filled by me. How to show caring without being too pushy. Tell us his top five needs again, in order and lets see if we can help with that one. Same with the last part.
As I said before, I do not want to hide myself behind a protective barrier to spare my feeling because this although worked for me for a while, it backfired as our M was lacking any openness and communication
I used to do this, then I would get angry one day over the seemingly small stuff. I didn't understand what was going on, but coming here has helped me so I do understand now. My W and I talk about things right along, so there has not really been a blowup for a long time. The bad thing in your case is that what is going on is way worse than anything ever should be in a marriage, I wish you didn't have to cope with it.

I do pray for you personally and for many others here, I know there is someone on the other end of the prayer that cares and just as important, someone that has the power to do something about it. I wish you didn't have to face the pain, and all that goes with infidelity. I hope you do all right during the holidays, it is a very bad time for some. I wonder if there is a way to make some of the negative positive. I suppose one way would be to try and make things as good for the children as possible so they wouldn't have bad memories. Your memories of this will change, and someday you will look back on this year as the start of a good new life. I wish it wouldn't take so long or be so hard to get there though.

What are the ages of your children? I ought to look it up, probably you have posted it before. If so, forgive me for asking. I have children 24, 23, 22 (sons) then D 20, D 18, S 16, and twin daughters 9. The last two were a supprise.

What country do you live in?
I was wondering if I should wish you a happy thanksgiving weekend, but the MB fourm is world wide, and i didn't know if it was valid for you.

I hope you are OK right now at least.

SS

<small>[ November 29, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS,
thank you once again, espacially for the prayers. I hope He won't give me more than I am able to deal with.

We've lived in US for over 10 years. My 2 D are in early teens.
I don't know his top EN, he never really told me where I failed, my guess it is conversation, SF, appearance, RC, financial support. But I might be wrong.
I need being appreciated, affection, honesty and openess, FS, involvement w/kids. We never did the questionnaires.

I can't tell you what my plans are 'cause right know I am very confused.
My H returned from his another trip but is as distant as ever from me, yet loving and attentive to kids. Remember, before he left, I told him despite my love for him it is his choice and he should come back only if he wants to, not because he feels forced to, and that I will wait for his return. He still has my wedding ring.
I am quite sure he spent this time with OW and I am also quite sure he did not end the A. I do not follow him around so I don't know for sure if the time he spends online and on the phone is with her, but he did this a lot before this trip.
We celebrated Thanksgiving with his/our friends I invited not knowing what develops - I just did not want to be just by myself with kids.
I am in no shape right now to approach him yet again to learn what his intentions are - quite frankly I can't bear "I love her not you, I want to spend the rest of my life with her " yet again.
It might well be "fog talk", but it does get to me, to the point that I do not think he ever loved me this way he feels for OW. And I am trying to resurect my self esteem because if don't like myself, nobody will.

That's what I don't get. I can understand that he was afraid to make rush decisions and leave us immediately half a year ago; if he feels the same way- as he stated about a month ago - is it just convenience and practical issues he is waiting on and resolving in secrecy before he leaves?
I've married a caring person, so I just don't think he intends to be cruel and mean intentionally. It is difficult though to fully trust him.
I feel very tired. I found more patience in myself that I ever thought I had, I do tend to blow up unexpectedly though on small issues with kids or in the office. I work on it too.
I know that the holidays will be hard.
Especially since last year I felt really loved and desired for first time in many years.
I liked WeightW and lost 12# with them 1.5 yr ago. Then I lost some 10# more due to stress. I'd love to shed another 15# which would make me look and feel better than when I was 18.
I think this might be the item to concentrate on, even though I realize it is not the most important issue for me, but it is the one exclusively under my control and it would make me feel better about myself.
I sometimes feel like I am set up to make a decision so later I will get the blame. That's one of the reasons I am very reluctant to act, not follow.
If my kids were unhappy, I would act differently.
If I was abused intentionally physically or verbally, I would act too.
Check my name, I believe this is an example of a hardship I declared I will try to solve, not to run away from, while exchanging the wows. I just need to learn proper tools and pray for the blessing for him to see it too.
If some time from now I will be sure in my conscience I did all that I could and waited long enough, then I'll ask him to move away - but even then I will make sure I want to separate, not divorce.
When this moment arrives, I don't know.
I think I will still post occasionally, often I just lurk.
FBOW

Well, we made it thru Thanskgiving OK.
I re-read my own thread.
Some comments made me think.
Especially the one about "if he really wanted to leave, he would be gone by now".
So, I am going to take his return at face value ( he is smart and not deaf so I believe he did listen what I said) and do my best plan A. I need to detach emotionally somewhat though because many of his actions hurt me a lot.
But - the detachment makes sense too - if he wants to cause me pain intentionally, then this is not the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, and I will be prepared for separation, on the other hand if he decides to begin recovery ( end the A, starts communicating) I will have at least some warm feelings left.
Above is easy to say, hard to implement.

FBOW

Hi FBOW,
I want to say again that I am amazed by your strength. I know you don't feel strong but you are still there working, and to me that is strength.
I really admire you for doing what you do to make a go of things.

thank you once again, especially for the prayers. I hope He won't give me more than I am able to deal with.
Prayer has always worked for me, and no, he won't give you more than you can deal with. It may feel like it sometimes, but he won't He will even take the load from you sometimes and let you rest if you need it badly enough. I don't always know why we have to endure the problems we are given, but they can always work for out good it we get his help and if make correct decisions and then act on them.

We've lived in US for over 10 years.
Happy Thanksgiving !

My 2 D are in early teens.
Early teens were fine for our girls, it was late teens that were the difficult years. I hope by then you are very happy in your marriage.

I don't know his top EN, he never really told me where I failed, my guess it is conversation, SF, appearance, RC, financial support. But I might be wrong.
I can see from past posts that he doesn't very much want to let you meet his needs. If you think these are his top 5, do you feel you met them well before the A? Can you discuss each one?
BTW, since he won't talk, you would just need to try and figure them out as you have done here. Can you tell us how you think you met his needs before, and what you think he gets from OW. Also, if you have any idea what is happening with He and OW. I am wondering if H is starting to realize that OW won't work - that she can't meet some of his important needs.
Please tell us what if any needs you are meeting now from these 5. I can see from your thread that he won't hardly speak to you, and it looks like there is no RC, let us know about the others.

Just for your thought, A very important need of mine is Domestic Support. I listed it low in my list because my W does such a good job. If she wasn't doing a good job, It would be very important to me and I would list it much higher. I am wondering if you do such a good job with some things that he doesn't count on OW to meet them, and if he is not starting to realize some of these things. I mention this so you can compare before A to after and also so you can see if he has changed his reaction to some of what you do for him, and started to appreciate it more. On the other hand, he may not show signs yet.
Someday he probably will, thing is, when.
Anyway, try to give a little more information about the needs as asked for above.

I need being appreciated, affection, honesty and openness, FS, involvement w/kids.
It sounds like he meets almost none of your needs right now except FS. Does he do much with the kids?
Are you still OK without these needs being met, I mean, how much longer do you feel you can continue?

I am in no shape right now to approach him yet again to learn what his intentions are - quite frankly I can't bear "I love her not you, I want to spend the rest of my life with her " yet again. It might well be "fog talk", but it does get to me, to the point that I do not think he ever loved me this way he feels for OW.
You don't need to bring it up now, even though you want to hear from him so badly that he has chosen you. I would just keep on the plan A. It sometimes happens that plan A alone is enough, but we can't tell yet, can we. As you said, he hasn't left yet for good.

And I am trying to resurrect my self esteem because if don't like myself, nobody will.

I like you, Seahorse likes you, and I bet your daughters love you more than human understanding. I hope you know that this is not about you. ( SS thinks a bit,) Well, even then, it hurts, doesn't it. I know it will get to you some, but remember that it's his faults that are causing this, not yours.

That's what I don't get. I can understand that he was afraid to make rush decisions and leave us immediately half a year ago; if he feels the same way- as he stated about a month ago - is it just convenience and practical issues he is waiting on and resolving in secrecy before he leaves?
We don't know, so act like, treat him like he is beginning to get it, that will help you stay on plan A.

I've married a caring person, so I just don't think he intends to be cruel and mean intentionally. It is difficult though to fully trust him. I feel very tired.
I worry about that. When we are tired, we want to give up. Pray about that part especially. Remember that God knows what you should do, and what will happen. He can guide you here. You should have a very calm feeling when you are thinking about doing what God wants, and you will be unsettled and not sure when you are not.

I found more patience in myself that I ever thought I had, I do tend to blow up unexpectedly though on small issues with kids or in the office. I work on it too. I know that the holidays will be hard.
This is/was one of my problems. I have learned to talk about things right along now, and it doesn't happen any longer. I used to ignore my children's faults telling myself to be patient. Then they would come home late one night and I would unload on them. Now I talk to them near when it happens ( I usually still wait a few hours so I don't speak out of anger) and we resolve the problems. No more build up, no more blow ups.

Especially since last year I felt really loved and desired for first time in many years I liked Weight W and lost 12# with them 1.5 yr ago. Then I lost some 10# more due to stress. I'd love to shed another 15# which would make me look and feel better than when I was 18.I think this might be the item to concentrate on, even though I realize it is not the most important issue for me, but it is the one exclusively under my control and it would make me feel better about myself. It is hard for a man to ignore a women that looks her best and that is out to get him. I encourage you to do this one both for you, and for him. Get to where you want to be, and then act like you are there.

I sometimes feel like I am set up to make a decision so later I will get the blame. That's one of the reasons I am very reluctant to act, .......
As long as you can bear it, let him make the moves. If this is true, you will be able to tell because his actions will get worse and worse as he tries to provoke you.
If some time from now I will be sure in my conscience I did all that I could and waited long enough, then I'll ask him to move away - but even then I will make sure I want to separate, not divorce.
Keep praying, and listen also. If you will do this faithfully, following what you feel God wants you to do, you will know if it is ever time for that, you will know it for sure.

I am going to take his return at face value ( he is smart and not deaf so I believe he did listen what I said) and do my best plan A.
Again, if you can give a little more info about meeting needs, we may have suggestions to help with the plan A. Also, did you have a problem with LB's before the A? Is there anything else that would help that you can think of?

I need to detach emotionally somewhat though because many of his actions hurt me a lot. But - the detachment makes sense too - if he wants to cause me pain intentionally, then this is not the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, and I will be prepared for separation, on the other hand if he decides to begin recovery ( end the A, starts communicating) I will have at least some warm feelings left
You seem to have thought it out, and know what you need to do. That's why I said I admire you. All of us have problems of some kind in our marriage. What we are supposed to do is work on things, not have an A. You are working on them.

Above is easy to say, hard to implement.
Like I said, you have it down pretty good.

Remember that there are many out here in the world that care about you, you are not all by yourself.

SS

hi my name is ruth, i recently discovered thaty my husband has just had affair number 4 and that she is pregnant with his child. he says he loves me and wants to be with me and that they are putting the child up for adoption, but it hurts so badly and it is difficult for him to understand my feelings, because he has to pacify this girl until the child is born, she thinks that they are going to be together after the child is gone, and now she i having problems with the pregnancy and he is spending alot of time with her, i'm just so lost right now, he also still has contact via email and phone afrom girlfriend number 3, i'm just not sure what to believe anymore, is there hope for us? help i need advice from someone. my email adress is blueeyes81@hotmail.com

Hi blueeyes,
I don't know if I can be much help, but there is a forum that specializes in helping those with children as part of the affair.
This is the link, if you post there, you can probably get better help.
Affairs/ children

I hope you can find help in this most difficult time.

SS