Hi SS,
thank you.
I certainly will ponder a lot while being alone. Actually I'd rather forget and escape mentally, but I know it will not happen.
So I am happy for my D to have good time with Daddy, I am happy maybe I organize stuff at home while alone, I am happy I will play with my cats and cuddle without worrying about stuff not being done.
This weekend I will watch 2 sunsets at the beach with my younger one. Maybe some fireworks too. I hope to enjoy it too.
Take care,
FBOW

Hi FBOW,

SS, said some really good stuff. Take care and enjoy the weekend. It is easy to avoid the hard stuff, with less distractions, you might be able to think clearer.

One thing I tell myself often, is "no matter what the outcome, I will be okay", and I know I will be. I know what I want, and if I dont' get that, well, I will get over it and be okay. He will be the one who loses, not me.

Hi FBOW,
I hope you don't mind me commenting on a few things again.

I read again your first post on this page. You express concern for the children.
SS, it is so unfair. Why I have to be the one dragging kids into this mess. They already are aware things are not right.

Please consider that you are not dragging them into anything. You will only be showing them the results of your husbands actions. In fact, you have been shielding them from your H's choices but I don't recommend you continue to do so. I think if they know something is wrong, it would be easier for them if they knew what it was, than to wonder. They may think it is something they are doing and they are old enough to know the truth. No, I disagree that telling them the truth is YOU dragging them in to this, it is your H that is doing the dragging by HIS actions.

SS, so far I am OK with everything I said and did. I don't want to mess it up. I am so afraid of throwing in the towel and moving out.
Now that I read it again, it does sound very close to plan B. Please remember a few things. The first is that you control your own life. You know oh so well that you can't control H or get him to do anything that he doesn't want to do. You have total control over yourself. You can stay, or you can leave. You can choose to work longer or you can leave if the pain is too great to take any longer. You have a lot of power right now, the power of choice. I don't believe he can take that away from you. It speaks very well for you that with all that power, you have chosen to stay for this long. It doesn't feel like power, does it. I think I know what you are thinking. Consider for a moment. Who controls what you will do the next year? You love your children, you want what is best for them, you consider their feelings in what you do, but you decide. Your H may or may not come back to the marriage. He may or may not be happy in his life because of his choices. You can ( and I believe you will) be happy because of your choices. That does not mean you have to stay forever, it does not mean you have to leave. It means you get to choose. You still have power over your own life.

Don't be afraid of your choices. Use logic, use prayer, and use your God given emotions and feelings and then choose. I can tell you that I trust you to choose correctly. I worry about your feelings, not your choices.

Please, please pray, 'cause patience and logic and warmth seem to make no difference.
I do continue to pray for you, for your H, and for your daughters.

Don't worry when I am quiet.
I don't worry about "quiet" so much as I worry about your feelings and how long you can continue to live in an emotionally abusive situation. I sense that he sometimes "sets you off" on purpose. You are doing better now than you have done - in many ways, but I worry about you anyway.

Remember, you can choose to act, and not to be acted upon. You can continue to act at home by being kind even when he is not, and you can choose to act by moving out if you feel it best at some point. Please don't be afraid, I see no signs that you need fear anything. I believe you have all the skills you will need to handle the unknowns that will come to you any time soon. I believe you will make correct choices. I believe God trusts you too, I think he does.

I don't know if having H and daughters gone will be easier for you, or more difficult. You have lots of friends here if you need us.

SS

Hi SS and Sue,

Got back from the beach after dropping off my D for a camp. Long drive, but we had good time. Carnival, funnel cake, contests, sunsets, waves, walks and even some talking.
She said she LIKES me, ( not just loves me). It made me so happy inside, that despite all my flaws and insecurities somebody can still enjoy being with ME.

I was also thinking that even if my M would not survive , nothing would prevent me and my D having similar weekends in the future. We did not spend a lot of money, I did not take any time off, so it would be doable.

I wonder if older D would still enjoy such time - I think she would be glued to her phone or distressed she's not with friends though.

My H is packing and asked me to help with some things so I have to go.
FBOW

I wonder if older D would still enjoy such time - I think she would be glued to her phone or distressed she's not with friends though.

As near as I can tell, it happens to all teens, both boys and girls TO SOME EXTENT. It's not you, it's the age. They almost always come back in their early twenties and want to be close again, and want to spend time with you. Some go a little longer than others.

Husband wanted your help packing?
To what extent does he communicate now?
Only to ask for things he needs? Are you able to discuss the children, social events, work and so on in a normal fashion?

SS

HI FBOW,

I remember when I was a teenager, it was not cool to be hanging with the "rents". I avoided as many family functions as I could manage. Somewhere around 20, it happended, my parents were not longer the "rents" but he parents, and it really looked like they did some cool fun things, so I started tagging along again and had a good time. It is just another phase teens go through.

My oldest is not too far away from avoiding the family. The two oldest run away when I ask for hugs and kisses, except in the home, where no one can see them. Then I can have them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi SS and Sue.
Thank you for the comments re. teenage years.

I guess one of my current frustrations is that I can hardly tell is it me going crazy, or are the situations I take part in so abnormal, Am I overracting and paranoid, or are other's actions unreasonable, cruel, provocative and uncaring.

You guys have been very kind to me, trusting in me, believing in my strenght and ability to choose right.

Summarizing last two weeks - as promised, I avoided "bothering" my H as much as possible. He asked me for some help with paperwork for his business ventures, and I did it. Also got the last minute things he needed for the trip.

There was one unpleasant conversation, not initiatad by me though.
See my older D has a habit of sort of ratting on me or dramatically showing her displeasment with my positions to my H in such a way that he always defends his princess and makes me feel like a heartless witch. I realize that it is not really my D fault as the situation directly results from total lack of communicating between me and my H re parenting issues, setting limits, curfews etc.
Don't get me wrong - she is a very good kid, and so far I trust her and her judgements, but I still think that as a parent I have to point out proper times to receive phone calls, or set limits if they repeatetdly last for hours, "be home by ... time"etc. Last issue was about internet chatting. She's been doing it into midnight, 1am, then of course sleeping most of the next day.
First time it happened, while she had a girfriend for a sleepover, I pointed out that it is rude to nap while you shoul be entertaining your guest. She said her chatting won't cause her to sleep the next day, and that her friend did not mind and sais she'll prove it. Next day, same situation, sans friend - she sleeps 4 hour in afternoon. So I calmly ask her to discuss the issue and we supposedly agree that she should not stay on the computer beyond 10pm as usual guideline. I thought the subject was well discussed, understood and agreed upon.
Well, next evening she goes grocery shopping with H after9pm and starts panicking in the store that she won't be able to talk to her friends ( "because mommy said so" - this is my sarcastic guess). So my H storms home and accusses me of terrorizing own kids for no reason, that he sees nothing wrong with her sleeping habits as the school is out etc etc. I calmly explain that we could avoid situations like that IF I could talk to him beforehand so we could agree and have common position towards daughter, that as we both probably differ in parenting ways, it is subject to compromise and discussion, in response he acusses me that everybody agrees with me as MRS ALWAYS RIGHT just for getting me off their back, suggesting that my concepts are paranoid and crazy.

I don't know, for sure long phone conversations and IT sessions into wee hours are sure fire triggers for me, so maybe I am too strict there, but I did not made those rules " because I say so", but AFTER I thought I talked to my D about my concerns and consequences of her behaviour.

Am I really that intimidating? Am I really appearing as a moral holier than Thou? I NEVER say "See, I told you so" but gosh I sure feel like it often.
Anyway, I declined to continue my H lashout on my parenting style , I reminded him that he wanted me to leave him alone, and as I felt this might be stressful disscussion, I offered we talk about parenting at his will after their trip and left the room.

I did talk to my D though. I told her again how she hurts me with her - conscious or accidental - setting me up before daddy, and asked her again to voice her concerns and opposition to me BEFORE we agree on some solution, not agree for peace sake, and then vent to H.
I don't know if I even should talk to her about my hurt feelings. I was not the first time I let her know I was dissaponted he chose this venue of getting what she wants.

Wow, long post.But this is my venting "diary", right?

Anyway, I gathered enough courage to ask at work what's going on with my review ( late about 3 months). Got quite positive input, apologies, reassurance about quality of my work, and hope of it happening by the end of July.
We shall see.

I am so emotionally exhausted I barely tolerate anybody cheating or lying or hiding even little truth from me. I'd much rather hear all bad news immediately. I also seem to have developed sixth sense ( or is it paranoia) to sniff those lies and white lies. It took me long time while growing up to develop sense of trust and confidence in goodness of people around me, and now I seem to lost it completely.

Back to todays events, my H and D left. They called me already from their stopover airport,my H wanted to ask me for more help with specific business issues while he's gone, I kept it brief and listened and wished them good trip.

Also, this morning while I was saying goodby to H, I reached out and hugged him ( no hug back), told him I loved him and asked please for no contatcing OW there. He got upset angry?, quiet and left the room. I did not demand anything nor did I tirade into how it hurts me or preach how this harms our M.
I think though I have to be upfront especially if I will move into plan B soon.

See SS, you can EASILY tell I'm by myself just by the length of my post....

What the heck, one more thing happened, with older D again.
See two weeks ago she misplaced her wallet ( with money and her driving permit) but kept it from me. Well my younger one asked me if she found it, so I learned about it.
I was upset about the immature way she handled it ( despite similar thing happening in the past, when I made sure she learned the procedure of informing CC bank, etc). I told her that it is disturbing to me that the more trust I put in her, and more privilages she gets, she forgets the resonsibilities and consequences that go with it. I reminded her how twice before her phone was stolen because she insisted on taking it to school/community center where it was left unguarded. I told her that while most people are nice, those things do happen, and it is unfair to have always somedy else to bail her out of her trouble.
Guess what. Two days later she goes for a retreat, gets her dig. camera ( recent gift for her confirmation) stolen.
SS, my H suppossedly gets mad at her, but to me when I express my disbelief that she chose to take it with her, he gets offensive again and says it's not her fault and I am awful for not being sympathetic to her (this conversation was on the phone just between the two of us). I did not tell him about my conversation with her shortly before her trip as I felt it would only enrage him more, I am very dissapinted though that now since they are gone I am stuck again with reporting, filing claims, providing paperwork etc tedious and unpleasant dealings.
Well at least the retreat leader is compassionate and helpful.

Enough for tonight. Have to straighten up the household.
Till later
FBOW

Hi FBOW,

As far as the right decision, what feels right for you is the right decision.

Household rules are set up so that the whole household is not disrupted. I grew up, with no calls after 10pm. (It had better be pretty important if the phone rang after 10pm or if I called someone after 10pm). Most homes in our area had similar rules. My H and I feel the same way. If the phone rings after 10, one of us usually comments on "who is calling so late" Same goes for teens on the computer.

Your D is pulling a typical teen stunt, playing you both against each other, and she has figured out that daddy is going to be her hero against the wicked witch of the west. (In her eyes)

You might disagree with me on this, my thougths are, and I have told my H this before. If you are not going to discuss important issues with me before hand so we could come up with mutually agreed upon decisions, which leaves me in a position of having to make decisions along the way, then don't critisize if you don't like the decision I made. Especially when I tried to talk to you about it first and you avoided talking to me.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Hi FBOW,
Yes, I can see you have more time when alone. It is good to hear more from you, it is easier to know what to say when I get more of your feelings and know more about what is going on in your life. It makes me believe more strongly that you are a brave person, that you do indeed have courage.

I guess one of my current frustrations is that I can hardly tell is it me going crazy, or are the situations I take part in so abnormal, Am I overacting and paranoid, or are other's actions unreasonable, cruel, provocative and uncaring.
I believe you are correct. It is a parents job to set boundaries for their children. We tell our children, " when you are on your own, you can do as you wish, but as long as you live in our home, these are the rules. " I have even said: " I am not willing to pay for you to do whatever you want, if you want complete freedom, you can pay for it yourself by moving out into your own place and supporting your self."

My W and I have had many disagreements also about what to do with the children. It has only been since I found this web site that we have been able to agree on things using the POJA.

You guys have been very kind to me, trusting in me, believing in my strength and ability to choose right.
We only report what we see, you do all the work and we just comment on how you are doing a good job - because you are.

I have to go and finish packing for my trip, I thought I could steal a little bit of time but it wasn't enough. I'll have to get back to you later.

I don't think you are crazy, I don't think you are in error most of the time. I can't find errors in what you have reported here.

I would consider plan B and I would consider having older daughter stay with H. Both of them need to learn some things, and they may as well do it together. If both daughters go with you, I think OD will be fighting and reporting everything that happens to H.

I can't believe how he still counts on you to help him, but gives little support back. I wonder if he figures that financial support is enough - I don't know if you are equal there or just how it is for you. Emotional support is very important but men sometimes don't get it. I know it is not confined to men, but they are often the worst ones.

Must go, sorry for not finishing as I intended. I'll have to talk to you later, and I will probably forget this and have to have you repeat it over again for me.

I hope you can relax evenings for a few days and rest, it will do you good.

I recommend you continue to follow your conscience and do what you know is right. I think H is angry because of the A, not from what you do with daughter. Its just his way of venting his frustration on the person he blames for his unhappiness. It is really caused by his own actions, but it doesn't look like he will accept that.

Relax, rest, enjoy yourself. Visit friends, go out to dinner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll visit with you when I get back from my trip.

SS

Hi FBOW,

To summerize:

1. You are not crazy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2. I believe you correctly understand what has happened, and what you need to do.

3. I don't think you need to worry about you so much. That is, I don't think the problems were caused by any fault of yours. I feel this may be one of the times that someone has an A even when
their needs were being met.

4. Sure you can continue to try things, but see #3.

5. I believe it is your H's personality makup that is preventing him from responding to your plan A efforts. I wish OW would find someone but plan B may do the same thing. I wish I knew him better, I would like to better understand if his pride would keep him from doing the right thing.

6. Agree with the way you are teaching your daughter responsibility. Wish more parents cared as much about their childrens future and knew as well how to cope.

7. On the way home, W said:
"I can't think of anything she could do, except, maybe...........maybe she is to nice to him. "

I believe it is simply you. I wish more people had the "problem" of being too nice.

8. I think your plan takes #7 into account. Plan B meets no needs.

9. If you intend to do the letter before the trip, I would probably tell the girls on the way home. Remember it is not you dragging them into anything. They have a right to know what is going on between their parents. Perhaps not every detail, but an outline.
If your H got cancer and you told your daughters, you would not be creating a problem, only reporting it. I believe this to be the same thing. He created the problem, you are trying to fix it, it's not your fault.

10. You don't need to be afraid of anything. Things will get better in your marriage or they won't. You will continue your job or you will not. Your daughters have free will, and they will make major mistakes or they will not.

You have the important part right, you do the best YOU can do.

I have more faith in you now than I ever did before, I believe future events will justify my faith.

I hope you acomplished what you intended today. I am most certianly not an expert, but I will continue to help as much as I am able.
Will continue to pray for you, and expect you will get the help you need.

SS

Hi FBOW,
I like the sound of your name. Ever notice how things hit you differently sometimes?

There are some other things on my mind, but I can' get to them until tomorrow. Some of the things you said have got me to thinking today, It has been good. ( better than normal) I'll probably get to it in the afternoon. See you later.

SS

Hi SS,
looking forward to your further comments.
Feeling quite down, no energy, let myself skip all chores. Can't stop what my H is doing apart from my D. Well I know.
Phrases suitable for Plan B keep popping into my mind. Oh well I got to get ready for work. I can't let this one slip.
I had been thinking also who's been filling my EN now, and which have gone dry. Not a good balance sheet for my H. Very good in FN still, but no longer provides security and stability for me, nor really anything else.

Have a good day and I will try to have one too.
FBOW

Hi FBOW,
Looking forward to your further comments.
I don't have the time I thought I would, part of it is that I went around and said hi to everyone, and it took a long time. I apologize, but I will do the most important part and add to it later. I should have kept better track of my time today. I suppose I did try to catch up a little at work also, that sometimes seems important, because others count on me for things.

Feeling quite down, no energy, let myself skip all chores.
Have you ever had major surgery? If you have, you know that healing takes time. Sometimes people will feel better soon, because they have not really stressed their bodies and then they do to much and have a relapse.
Your emotions have been through major surgery. It's time to recover as much as one can in a week's time. Please let things go. It's not worth the relapse. Just let it go. Skip whatever you need to skip. You will automatically pick things back up just before you leave to get your daughter. It's part of you, won't be able to leave it alone then, but for now, please give yourself permission to rest. Please?

Can't stop what my H is doing apart from my D.
You can quit thinking about that, and think about your emotional survival. Your daughters depend on you, and aside from that, you don't have to live in doubt and fear.

Phrases suitable for Plan B keep popping into my mind. Oh well I got to get ready for work. I can't let this one slip.
It may be that your subconscious mind is preparing you for plan B. I am not good enough to know these kinds of things, but it would make sense. Your mind wants peace, not the battering it has endured for so long. It is searching for peace.

I had been thinking also who's been filling my EN now, and which have gone dry. Not a good balance sheet for my H. Very good in FN still, but no longer provides security and stability for me, nor really anything else.

I have worried about that for quite some time. Emotional stability and support is important, and that is an understatement. You have time alone to think that you have not had for a long, long time. It is hard to think along safe lines.
What is best for me?
What is best for my daughters?
Is there anything else I can do for H?
How did I fail?
What could I have done different?
What can I do now?

Everything goes round and round, and you still don't know what to do. Think of solutions.
What is the best possible future for our family?
Is there any way I can help H see that best future?
If he won't see it, what are my options?
When should I exercise my options? What is the best timing?
How can I best preserve my emotional stability through the events of the very near future?
What steps can I take to best do this?

After thinking for a few days now, I believe your greatest help can come from learning to trust yourself. I am not sure how to convey that to you. Not convey that you need the trust, but how to help you learn to have that faith in yourself.

Were I to meet you every day for lunch ( hmmm, I should stay away from this kind of stuff maybe? ) I believe I could give that knowledge to you over time. There are factors from early in your life that cause you to doubt yourself. Beginning with your father and re-inforced by your H's behavior. When I look, I don't see the same person you see when you look.
I see a daughter of God, that has inherited ability from her parent. I see strength, I see someone with talent, and ability. I see beauty, grace, and thoughtfulness. I see a lot more than that.

I wish you had the gift to see yourself as you are, for I believe you would see what I see. You are capable, you are lovable. It's not you! The problem here is not you.
I think you need to know that. I don't' know how to give it to you, but I wish I could.
Your time to think is short, I'll try to do better, but until I get back, think about what I am saying. Think about all you have done, think about how much you do for him, and how little he realizes it. I think plan B will be a sharp pain to him, but I don't know how he reacts to pain. Some try to dull the pain, others seek a cure.

I can't say what is the best timing. I think you have a feel for that anyway. It's not for me to tell you what to do, I believe in your ability to know because I can see how sharp you are, and I know you can do it well. I know that !!!

I need to go for now, pray to understand who you really are, what you need to do. May God bless you with that understanding. Please don't let thoughts of what may come get you down. God can take of our trials and produce blessings, and you know that is true. I have faith in you. It is easy to do so when one gets to know you.

SS

HI SS,
thank you so much for your kind, encouraging and flattering comments.
You are so right, for the past year I have been trying to see myself as capable person, one that's not perfect, but willing and ABLE to improve, and I am waiting for the moment I will know I am on the right track from within me, not because of outside - even as kind as yours - input.

Of course positive comments coming from those around me help me believe in myself and my skills, for some reson those positives are easily overshadowed by slightest criticism or expression of dissapointment, or actual, objective failure, while actual, objective successes do not count as much for me.
I hope my counseling will help me in this area.

I am taking more time for myself, I have been meeting my friends Fri, Sat, Sun, and will meet one more on this Thu. Those times, even if mostly I consciously keep conversation at the "safe" level ( though I am so glad now I have trusted friends <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , do relax me even if only for the duration of the visit.

I pray for guidance with timing, and also for an event other than coming out of my action, that would change the status quo.

Tomorrow I'm going for a physical and I will ask if my low energy is just the result of emotional exhaustion, or maybe it should be investigated. I know I need to take care of the practical stuff, like my health, physical and emotional so I can carry on in whatever position I will be a week, a month, a year, or two from now.

I realize that I am in better situation than many others, I am not dealing with additions, or violence, nor dire financial situation; that I am employed, that I am in good health, that I do have loving , if unaware and far away family, that I do have a group of friends that won't judge me, that I have all reasons to be proud of my children.

Anyway, SS, thank you and good night, and others might be in more immediate need for you support than me right now, for your comments can be read and re-read when I need a boost.

FBOW

FBOW,

You know as well as I do, that SS will be their for you.

Sometimes he says things so well, that I just wait to read what he says.

Sometimes I don't know what to say. I feel your unhappiness. I think your H needs a swift kick in the you know were. (Okay, I know violance is not tolerated here).

SS, just has a way with words.

I'm happy to hear that you are getting out with friends and are having some joy in that.

Talk later.

FBOW,
What do you think my motive is for the encouragement I give?
We come to MB, we want to help others, we read, we get to know people, and we say what we believe will help them the most. We try to say it in a way that will best get the message across. I have posted to many over the last year, and I feel sometimes I can help one most, sometimes another. Right now, I feel it is you I should put the most work into helping. I feel that strongly.

thank you so much for your kind, encouraging and flattering comments.
You are a logical person, you know me fairly well by now. I do try to encourage, but I try to never, never say things I don't believe. I meant exactly what I said to you. If I make things up, you would not believe me, and my credibility would be gone. I could not help you any longer if that happened.

You are so right, for the past year I have been trying to see myself as capable person, one that's not perfect, but willing and ABLE to improve, and I am waiting for the moment I will know I am on the right track from within me, not because of outside - even as kind as yours - input.
I believe that if I point out the truth to you, you will, in time understand that it is the truth. I agree that it has to come from within, I hope to help you find it there - because I can see it, and I believe you will also if you look in the right places. Sue can see it, Seahorse has commented before also. I believe your husband is distorting the mirror, and you have not been able to see what we see.

Of course positive comments coming from those around me help me believe in myself and my skills, for some reason those positives are easily overshadowed by slightest criticism or expression of disappointment, or actual, objective failure, while actual, objective successes do not count as much for me. I hope my counseling will help me in this area.

Have you ever asked yourself why you will take H's failure as your own, but take no credit for your successes? Why would this be so?
Perhaps I ought not to comment on some of this here, but you know some of those reasons going back to your childhood. If you accept failure as being part of you, you must accept success also, and realize that you did these things with your ability and good judgment. Perhaps God helped? He did, but you had to go along with him, he doesn't force success any more than he forces failure. You are where you are because you did the work to get there.

I search for the right words. I want you to see things as they really are. Knowing the truth about yourself is important. If what I have been saying is true, you will not be a child of failure. You will be a success. You need to know that. I wish I knew how to show you. One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit is to bear witness of the truth, If this is true, you should feel it as you read it. God wants you to know who you are.

I am taking more time for myself, I have been meeting my friends Fri, Sat, Sun, and will meet one more on this Thu. Those times, even if mostly I consciously keep conversation at the "safe" level ( though I am so glad now I have trusted friends , do relax me even if only for the duration of the visit.
I was hoping you would be able to rest and relax for the whole week. I am glad you are spending time with friends, and W says "any time." I know it's hard when family are there. I have a few ideas - after I spend some time running them around in my mind, I will let you know if I believe any of these ideas make sense. I hope you accomplished what you wished on Saturday.

I pray for guidance with timing, and also for an event other than coming out of my action, that would change the status quo.
I will support you with my own prayers also. I do not know if your marriage will heal, but I believe you will give it the very best chance of healing that anyone could give.

Tomorrow I'm going for a physical and I will ask if my low energy is just the result of emotional exhaustion, or maybe it should be investigated. I know I need to take care of the practical stuff, like my health, physical and emotional so I can carry on in whatever position I will be a week, a month, a year, or two from now. We worried about that last fall, and you said you were fine then. Please tell your Doctor why you could be emotionally exhausted, so they can make an informed decision. Please be careful with your health. You are important to us, but even more so to your daughters.

I realize that I am in better situation than many others, I am not dealing with additions, or violence, nor dire financial situation; that I am employed, that I am in good health, that I do have loving , if unaware and far away family, that I do have a group of friends that won't judge me, that I have all reasons to be proud of my children.
Yes, now lets get your husband back.
I am serious, you need to know who you are. You are already a success, you will continue to be one, you just need to believe it.

Anyway, SS, thank you and good night, and others might be in more immediate need for you support than me right now, for your comments can be read and re-read when I need a boost.

I think you are stuck with me for a while. I hope you don't get tired of me. ( you can laugh when you read this.)

SS thinks for a moment and realizes something else that he ought to say.

I don't want you to feel pressure. I am not trying to get you to take action, or change your mind, or do anything at all that you don't feel to do. I want to help you realize what you are capable of, so if you do ever change things, you will understand that you can do anything you wish and you will be fine as you do it.

There are still a great many things I wish to discuss that you brought to my mind Saturday. It will take me some time to get to them, but I feel this is the most important. Please don't take what I am saying as "feel good" support, that's not what I am trying to do with this. It's too important to spend time with that right now. If Still Seeking is telling the truth, how would you know it? What would it take?

You know that you are smart enough to spot fraud here, and emotionally it is hard for you to accept my words because of your H's actions against you, but logically you know the truth.

What do we need to do so you can see it emotionally too? Can you make a connection?

I'll think about it some more. I have many more thoughts than I can type right now. I hope I am helping. Please say something if you feel overwhelmed, I'll lighten up.

I have faith in you.

SS

Hi SS and Sue,

Thank you guys once again. I feel a lot less lonely knowing you check on me, and give me your time and thoughts.

SS, I don't feel pressure from you, and I realize you must be saying the truth ( or at least your true way you perceive me and my situation; nothing is really objective, right?). Despite my extremely low level of trust for anybody, why would you lie, especially knowing that false reassurances could hurt me down the line. I am kind of a stubborn, independent individual, and I LIKE to succeed, and I kind still don't know how to deal with failure, other than avoiding being in the position I am not 100% sure of success. I am getting better though, in letting myself to err and then fix, rather then by avoiding risk, be stuck where I am. It is a slow process and I feel pressure from myself knowing statistical "timelines" for lenghts of As, Plan As, etc. But, as I know , my H and me many times defied statistics, and then I feel like so what it takes me longer, if the end result will still be good ( I am talking about me, not the M).
I am shocked many times how my perception of time differs from other people, my dad always complained I am extremely impatient, yet I noticed it does not bother me to wait , as long I am sure the goal will be reached eventually. It's only the uncertainity of the moment that makes me impatient.
Wow, I don't think I ever had time in my life to really think about me at those levels, I always believed that as long as you deal with the "real" "earthy" issues alright, you will be OK , so concentrate on those "real" tasks, stay busy and don't waste time anylyzing your inside.
Of course me now doing that makes me wonder if I'm going crazy...
Well, I know that is not the case, but I cling to the "real" things I am still successful at to keep me going.
Yes, SS, I don't really want to admit it , but facing the failure of my M, does destroy my self esteem more than anything else. I guess it will stay that way, even if I agree that my fault was in contributing (then I will torture myself with percentages...) to the unhappiness, and missing EN, but not in the actual A. And I am afraid of the domino effect you know, what else will fall after M falls.

SS and Sue, honestly, I don't get tired of your comments, I just remember how crucial it was for me to receive posts in the very beginning, and I know the value of you inputs for the newbies.

Sue, I'm sorry I was so into myself recently that I did not post anywhere else, especially to you. I felt that your H is trying more and that you cautiously went along that. I hope it lasts, and also your calculations re : boards will work out too.

I better go to bed now...
Goodnight
FBOW

Wow, I don't think I ever had time in my life to really think about me at those levels, I always believed that as long as you deal with the "real" "earthy" issues all right, you will be OK , so concentrate on those "real" tasks, stay busy and don't waste time analyzing your inside.

Can I examine this one?
Did I just hear an "oh no, not again?" ( I can tease you, can't I?)

Lets do some earthy issues. How about this one - do our emotions affect our health? If they do, what can we do to see that we remain emotionally healthy, so we can stay physically healthy?

Here is another:
Is it enough to feed and clothe your daughters, make sure they have a roof over their head, and that they get an education, or do you need to provide an emotionally healthy marriage for them to give them the best chance of having a happy life of their own? If your H won't help in providing this for them, what would that mean?

It is logical and reasonable to expect that your H would respond to your efforts to repair your marriage. If he does not, why would that reflect on you - since you are the one doing all the work and putting in all the effort? Why would it be reasonable for you to have guilt and accept blame for his failure?

If it is not reasonable, what can be done to get out of the trap of taking someone else's consequences for them? What would it look like to be free of his choices, and to only accept responsibility for your own?

Pretty basic, plain, down to earth stuff. Kind of the things life itself is all about.

Remember that plan B ( I hate saying this, but I need to get it done) is a tool to save marriages. It is not for breaking them up. Remember that Dr Harley has modified his plan over the years to make it as successful as he possibly could. He adjusts it often based on current data.

What am I trying to say? Mostly give you more to think about, on top of the other stuff that you are already thinking about.

Here's a good thread that really helped me. Thought you would like it.

Don't know what to call it.

I had better go, thanks for listening.

SS

Hi FBOW,

I'm sure you will read some of what I posted on my thread.

You know, you are a wonderful, caring patient women. You have tried for a long time, actively wanting your M to work. If you choose to go to Plan B, which I believe you are considering, it does not mean you M failed. It does not mean you failed. You would have failed if you tried to do nothing. You have tried for a long time.

As I said in my thread:

It takes two to create a marriage, two to make it work. If one person in the marriage does not try, the person trying, can only try for so long, and they stop. After all, beating your head agains a brick wall only results in a major headache.

As SS says, Plan B does not mean the M failed. Sometimes, some people need to be shocked into reality. Plan B, may be the shock your H needs. It will also be the space you need to think clearly with him not clouding things for you. Everytime he ignores you, disrespects you, whatever, it causes you pain.

You need to start doing what you can to eliminate the pain and bring back some happiness into your life. Sometimes you need to remove the source of the unhappiness.

Do you still do for him such as laundry, cooking etc. Maybe he needs to see what life is like when he has to fend for himself.

I'm not trying to talk you into Plan B. I just want to give you things to think about.

Yes, your girls will be hurt by this. They will recover. All you have to do is explain to them, that you cannot live this way any longer. And you want to be a positive role model for them as to what to expect from a man in a relationship. When the other person is disrespecting you, sometimes, you have to have them leave, so you can stop the cycle of disrespect. Tell them that if he is willing to come back to the marriage as a husband who can treat this W with respect, you will welcome him back. Or something to this effect. I forget, how old is the youngest? I know the older D is teenager.

Let them know that he is still their dad, and you will not keep them apart.

I know you are worried about their emotional well being, and as most moms goes, we sacrifice ourselves for our children. How long can you sacrifice your emotional well being. I worry that you will sacrifice too long, and it will be hard to find your way back.

FBOW, you are worthwhile, you are wonderful and you are worthy of respect. We cannot make others respect us, we do not have to tolerate their disrespect. (And this is why I do not do Plan A perfectly. When H verbally disrespects me, or even disrepsects me by not calling, I let him know that I don't have to tolerate it. And I remind him that I treat him with respect, so I expect the same from him).

You know, as I think about it, I don't think I would do a good Plan B if it comes to it. Plan B is about avoidance, except when you have to such as with kids. I'm the type that likes to watch him squirm, and just when he thinks he is getting comfortable again, throw it at him again. (I have a slight cruel streak, what can I say).

Okay, maybe I'm not a very good example of Plan A/Plan B. I cannot be a doormat, and in someways, that is what Plan A is to me. I will do my best to not LB, but I have a hard time to tolerate LB's directed at me.

Hi SS and Sue,
thank you both for your remarks and reassurance.
I got AntiD medication. I am willing to try it before I decide on Plan B. I know it's probably another attempt of mine to look for silver lining and grasping for more endurance, please don't think I am ignoring your point of view.
Also listened what my counseling lady had to say today. I know I am the one to decide, and it's up to me to realize if and when I'm ready and what choice to I take.
My younger one ( 12.5yr) made my day today, sent me letter form her camp. I'll see her a day after tomorrow.
Till later
FBOW