Eli,<p>Good morning [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, that helps me unsderstand a little more.
You seem to be taking a lot of the blame for things that he did which were wrong...e.g. living a separate life, having your home available for him to use with ow's. <p>And you seem to be placing the rest of the blame on the women. I wonder if this is a cultural belief from your country? That the women are to blame for the terrible things the men do? I mean this in a respectful way, it certainly was a belief that was pushed on me as a young girl, and I grew up right smack in the middle of the US!!<p>As things are right now, getting to your goal of a long term, happy, mutually fulfilling, committed, monogomous relationship is going to take a lot of work. On both your parts.<p>There are many things that need to be sorted out, put in order, and a lot of pattterns that need to change. <p>My first suggestion is that you live apart, and do not have sex. Date. <p>The reasoning for this is that it is easy to deposit love units and create the feelings of romantic love when you are having sex, and both people find it enjoyable.<p>What's wrong with that? Well, nothing, if the rest of the relationship is on track. But I think what you want to really evaluate right now is how good of a partner will he be for you ..... long term.<p>How well will he treat you in 10, 15, or 30 years? Will he be a gentle, nurturing, role model for your children? Will you be able to respect and trust him? Or will he break your heart and leave you to raise children on your own?<p>These things, I know seem far away and hard to put into concrete thought. Part of the reason for that is the emotional pull you have with him right now. You feel in love, because he is doing some things right. And your ability to really think this through is clouded by having a sexual relationship.<p>Now, let me just say that there are many people at this site who have strong religious and moral views of sex before marriage. I am not one of them. My views on the subject tend to be based more on the ethics of each situation and what issues need to be addressed within the relationship.<p>Next, you and he need to have a discussion about his other activities. There needs to be a way that he can be accountable for his time when you are not together. Living apart, this will be difficult. But I trust that the two of you together are wise enough and creative enough to come up with some ideas. I can help if you get stuck.<p>Start with those two issues, see what he says and how he feels about it. This will give you valuable information on his willingness and ability to take your feelings and your safety into account.<p>One more thing. Yes, what the ow's did was wrong. But in the end, the blame for what HE did to YOU stops right at his nose. He is the one wh betrayed you, your trust and your safety. I encourage you to really take a look at the feelings of resentment you have. I wonder if some are misplaced?<p>Please let me know what else I can help you with.<p>Cerri

Hi Cerri,<p>Thanks so much for some clarity.
This is the first time someone has tried to understand me a little.<p>I don't believe I am blaming myself, but it's hard to see yourself without a mirror. Guess I was trying really hard to do the Harley thing by trying to see where I may have CONTRIBUTED to the problems or situation.
I did do a bit of the "Am I not beautiful enough, etc", but he reassures me none came close.<p>No, I am in no way responsible for his moral turpitude.<p>Thanks for the good advice. I'll take it on board and print it out to show him.<p>We are in the process of looking for a place together, with my best friend (who is his mate's girl-friend). We'll be getting 3 br place so I will have my space.
I do trust this friend completely. She's been my one grace throughout this ordeal (besides his mum).
The reason for this decision is that I've found that I am worse when we are apart. I wan thim to be readily available so that when I want to ask a question or talk, I don't have to pack an overnight bag and drive 45 mins to get there.
My friend said she did notice the difference in my voice when she was in the States visiting her partner, how I sounded different when I was with him and when I wasn't.
Also, she said if it doesn't work out for me, then we could ask him to leave or we'd leave.<p>Now with the resentment. I don't believe I have misplaced it because I hate him for what he's done to me. That's the struggle at the moment. I hate him and I love him.
This resentment for him will not go away till he does whatever it takes to earn back my trust and for me to believe his earnestness.
He didn't want to take away any blame from himself to this cow, hence he didn't tell me the things she did to push him that far, till last weekend. Does this not show that he places all mistakes on himself?
Anyhow, I just want justice. I want her to suffer as much as I have for her selfish act.
He has been telling her all along that he needed a friend. she found out I had just moved out & plotted a scenario where she was a dame in distress, vunerable, and neede comforting.
There are so many holes in her story it reeks of foul play.
I guess she hurt me, but I also feel like she has betrayed him as a friend, but that's his issue to deal with not mine.
I just want ot know how she lives with herself for what she's done, and how she justifies it?
I would never consider doing such a thing to another soul. So, I want to understand.<p>Cheers.<p>SpyWife,<p>Your H sounds like my s/o a mth ago, avoiding topic, angry, wanting things to be normal for most the time. However, he was apologetic, and not arrogant.<p>How are you doing?
Are you focussing on yourself?
I think we BS tend to focus too much on the WS, co-dependant.
If I knew that he was still uncertain I would not be with him. I'd let him go.
But, he keep reminding me that he now knows what he wants, and can't imagine making the same choices he made before.
He was a very angry person in the first couple of mths. My IC said he was in pain for what he had done, and the hurt he inflicted on me. Give him time and he will make himself ready for my demands, Plan A?
This has come to be, but I can be very demanding (e.g. wanting to talk and ask questions all the time till 2am in the morning and first thing before heading off for work, wanting details, etc). LB's? Can't help myself at times?<p>I'm not going to my IC because I didn't think he was so great either. Just an ear that is paid for, and he wasn't effective enough with my s/o.
Why are you not seeing Dr. Harley or one of MB crew?
I'd love the opportunity if I was in the same country and I could afford it.
My biggest hurdle is to get over wanting to know the details and obssessing. A personal flaw as I want to live through what he did, analyze, and understand exactly what he was going through.

Eli,<p>I am concerned with your decision to live together on a couple of fronts. First because your emotions are really tugging at you, making it difficult to really decide if being with this man is in your best interest in the long term. Will be there for you when you are 30 or 40 giving you all the support, care, protection that you need? <p>Have you read any of Dr. Harley&#8217;s stuff on living together before marriage? There are several things here at this site. If you can&#8217;t find them, I can link them here for you.<p>The first thing that concerns me is that this arrangement is just as you say, a sort of probationary time. If you decide that being with him is not right for you, then either he or you will leave. There is no permanence or commitment. This type of arrangement which is common before marriage, tends to make couples be on their best behavior. They know that if they make the other unhappy, that instead of really doing all it takes to work it out, the relationship will end.<p>What happens then, should you choose to marry or some other type of lifetime comittment, is that the standards become relaxed. His thinking instinctively goes something like this, &#8220;Now that we&#8217;re married, she&#8217;s committed to me, and will stay. So, I can relax a little (which turns into a lot), be myself.&#8221; <p>Contrary to popular belief, living together before marriage is not a good indication of whether or not the relationship will work. Statistically, the rate of failure for marriages where the couple lived together first is far higher than for those where they did not. For the very reasons I cited above.<p>Next I am very concerned about the idea of living with him and another woman! Yes, I know you trust her. We all say that in the beginning. But he has already shown himself to be untrustworthy. Do you know that nearly all affairs are with close friends or colleagues? I think you said that you ordered Surviving an Affair? Read carefully the parts about how an affair begins and grows.<p>My suggestion is that you and this friend rent an apartment. And that you date your BF. Yes, you will miss him, and yes some things will be difficult. But I would encourage you to think in terms of your future. Doing what is best for you, not just what feels good or safe or easy at the moment. <p>As to the trust and resentment issues. Is he still in contact with the woman that you feel so strongly about? If so, there should and needs to be a no contact agreement between the two of you, and a letter sent to her. The letter needs to say these things:
1. He does not ever want to see or speak to her again in any way.
2. He is in a relationship with you and he betrayed your trust.
3. He intends to do all that he can to repair the relationship with you.
4. His betrayal was selfish, thoughtless and cruel.
5. You know of his indiscretion and he will tell you immediately if she tries to contact him.<p>I would also suggest that he change all phone and email numbers and addresses.<p>The resentment will subside over time. Dr. Harley has a good article about that here as well. First you need to eliminate the cause of the resentment&#8230;. Hence the no contact stuff, and then you both need to be working hard at recovery. <p>Once you have a good recovery plan in place and working, DO NOT bring up the past. This is the mistake that many people make, and just can&#8217;t seem to stop. The past is over, no amount of talking about it, re-hashing it, or crying over it will change anything. There is nothing either of you can say or do to make you feel better about his betrayal. Bringing it up will only serve to make both of you feel bad. Once you are on the path to recovery, don&#8217;t go back to dig at the pain.<p>Well, there&#8217;s a lot more I could say, but I&#8217;ve given you much to think about for today. Please think long and hard about your living arrangements. Right now, I think you need to take care of you, and in that atmosphere of calm and safety evaluate heavily what is best for your future.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

Hello you two...<p>I'm having a busy week so I haven't been able to write much.<p>>How are you doing? Are you focussing on yourself?<p>I'm doing ok. Reading lots. Bought some codependency books and some more spouse of a SA books and I'm self-medicating with those.
>I think we BS tend to focus too much on the WS, <p>Absolutely. When I was looking for books, they actually had one (I didn't buy it) called "It would be a great relationship if it wasn't for you". <p>>Why are you not seeing Dr. Harley or one of MB crew?<p>I really prefer aface to face counselor, yet I don't like the one that we have. If it doens't get better, we can switch.<p>>My biggest hurdle is to get over wanting to know the details and obssessing. <p>I did this until I got all of the information. I think that it is therapeutic in some sick way. You have to know what you are dealing with before you can deal with it.<p>One other thing for you, Eli....about making "them" pay and giving them the misery that their relationship brought into your life....I talked, ALOT, to one of his girlfrinds. She really felt as though she did no wrong. She is single, he approached her, and she only had his side of the story. I disagree, she knew he was married and I think she was wrong too. I really don't have the energy to work on her morals. I got no peace from it. About the prostitutes and what not....I'd love to have them arrested and tell them what I think of them, but these people make their living messing around with men, many of which are married. I doubt there is much I could say to give them pain. Take comfort that at some point (if not already) they will realize that it is/was not right and they will have to work past that. Or they won't and possibly get some nasty little STD that will wake them up. We have to worry about us. I wouldn't go after them.<p>People get crazy about love triangles, people harm others....happens all the time...don't get caught up in it. I had to speak my mind to his little girlfriend, but nothing good came from it. My advice would be to put your efforts into a healthier place.<p>Also, when we did the no-contact letters, I made sure that mine said what I needed to say. They can do what they want with it and one sent me back a nasty message about keeping my problems to myself, but I got to air my feelings to tem thought that.<p>Cerri, hope all is well. <p>I won't be back until monday.<p>Have a good weekend.<p>Spy Wife

Hello again,<p>It's so good to have people there when you post something, so thank you so much.<p>Cerri, <p>Thanks for your concerns, but I know he is not that ruthless to do something like that with someone I know, a best friend's girl. I think he'd rather have his arm ripped off slowly.
We had started trying to work out why that last one happened. He was blatant (self-sabotage) when the friends were over to get caught (he had previously been really cautious to not be caught out), but when they did not snitch on him, subconsciously he invited the next worse case scenario. Someone who was a b*tch, someone he didn't care about, and a relationship that he didn't care if he loses.
(PLEASE BE ASSUREd I FEEL SAFE WITH THIS ARRANGEMENT. Thanks for the tip about attitudes changes though, and dating, this is what I intended all along, hence I didn't want marraige & setting boundaries).
I say subconscious because I do believe that he could not do that intentionally. Also, his life was on automatic destruction, and he had reached a point where he had to know what he wanted with his life and relationship with me.<p>Look, don't get me wrong. I describe it this way, but it is very hard to give facts and show how he really is towards me in real life.
He doesn't think what he did was okay. On the contrary, I can see his remorse and pain. I'm just more concern about my own pain and needs right now.
I've talked to a lot of the guys that he goes out with (not the same ones as the bad ones in his youth), and they all thought he was gay because so many girls came on to him, but he never did anything with these girls.
Granted the last one he knew, but you know my theory there.<p>In addition, it is me who is hestitant about the long term committment right now.
He says he is ready to get married now, so he wants to make the committment. I will only accept it if he does everything I ask of him, and only after he's proven himself.<p>With respect to the living together before marriage stats, I heard the same thing, but it says that the divorce rate for those who live together before marriage is just staring to equal the rate of those who didn't. Also, with stats, one must put it into context or factor out variables (e.g. for fruits consider seasonal factors). Anyhow, one must consider the change in social and economic status (e.g. women are more self-reliant with their own careers, people are choosing to get married & have kids later, women can vote & speak up for themselves & not afraid to be alone-divorce, etc).<p>Regarding trust & resentment:
1. He does not ever want to see or speak to her again in any way.
(NEVER)<p>2. He is in a relationship with you and he betrayed your trust.
(YES)<p>3. He intends to do all that he can to repair the relationship with you.
(YES)<p>4. His betrayal was selfish, thoughtless and cruel.
(YES, he is having a hard time forgiving himself)<p>5. You know of his indiscretion and he will tell you immediately if she tries to contact him.
(YES)-Actually there's a story here. She told him she wouldn't tell a soul and he shouldn't either. But, he knew this was it and he had to start to be honest to me & tell me everything. I was distraught and called her. She was such a bimbo for trying to lie after I said to her "Have you done anything recently that you should be ashamed & feel guilty for?" (-NO), "I'd like to give you this opportunity to tell your side of the story" (-I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT).
Anyhow, she pretends she has to go to a better place to talk to me on the phone, hangs up, and calls him. He says, I've told her everything. ONLY then, does she call me back to say yeh.
Was there a need to read between the line? <p>Well, keep in touch, and I can keep saying thanks, but it is never enough times.<p>SpyWife,<p>Goodness, you really know my internal conflicts and wants.<p>Though, my s/o initiated it with the pros, he never initiated it with people he met/knew (stupid, but that was his limit). With the last one, he was naive. He really wanted a female friend to understand a female POV, to talk with. Unfortuntately, the one that he met and who was open to talk about matters of the heart was an immoral b*tch, whom had ulterior motives for being close to him.
Your H's "girlfriend" sounds like she is not so honest, but it may also be that he with-held the truth from her when she thought bad things about your relationship. This was not the case with my s/o. I know he told her I was the only one he loved and would ever love, but he was depressed about why he was destroying his life (career, financial status, health-over eating & drinking excessively). He didn't understand that it was due to his childhood and parents (classic SA symptoms of trying to numb the pain/emptiness of childhood). She was attracted to him, wanted him, and smelt a wounded relationship. She was stealth in the way she approached the prey.
I have found that a lot that happen to those here are not as close to black and white. This must be so hard, but then it makes it very hard for people to relate to me too, vice-versa. <p>I do want a confrontation with her just to hear how she justifies it, and for him to tell her how sorry he is for the pain he's cause me and how she was in error if she ever thought he wanted her. Basically, the NC letter, but verbal because I don't trust as to what she'd do with it.<p>Okay, talk later. Thanks<p>PS: Spacecase posted some more good stuff. "Why we ask questions".
Also, I read an article by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D about infidelity. Along the line of what you and I need SW. We are each individuals in that we decide and know how much information we want to know, and we decide what the goal is in the relationship. Tell me if you wnat to read it.<p>[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: eli ]</p>

Cerri, <p>Thanks for your concerns, but I know he is not that ruthless to do something like that with someone I know, a best friend's girl. I think he'd rather have his arm ripped off slowly. <p><p>
This man has an addiction. Morals and ethics go out the window.<p>Read the posts here at JFO or the other infidelity sites. It happens ALL the time.<p>I had an A with my xh's best friend, who was the best man at our wedding. We are both highly ethical people whose integrity and morals are above reproach and have never been questioned.<p>Pastors have affairs with the wives of their congregation members. Almost ALL affairs take place between friends. It's about opportunity and love bank deposits.<p>You are playing with fire.<p>I wish you all the best, but I fear for your safety and your well being.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

Dear Cerri,<p>Yes, I've read about some of the other affairs, there's even one with the W's sister.
My best friend has proven her trust to me. I'm not going to let his betrayal ruin my trust for her. I don't believe she would betray me. She is a decent person and is very much like myself. I know she is strong enough to never even think that way. She has been my one guiding star. If it weren't for her, I'd be in a worse state.
She know everything that I know, and she feels or empathises with me.<p>I know this place shows a lot of sadness and pain from betrayals and trust broken, but I love my friend and trust her. She has not given me reason to do otherwise. I can not base my relationship with her based on the experiences of others. That would be unfair on her.
My s/o is very close to her boyfriend, and I am getting to know him quite well too. <p>I do appreciate your advice, but I think there are some unique cases, where the situation is different. I can relate a little with Spywife (I am battling the same emotions & thoughts as SW)and I can relate with Zorweb & Blondblossom (my s/o sounds like her wH).<p>Anyway, my s/o pledge to dedicate half a day every weekend for us to talk and the 2 of us to read SAA, etc, forever or as long as it takes for me to not need to talk about it anymore. This is positive, yes?
Last weekend, we talked and he said, though there is no excuse good enough for what he did, it is true that he hated who he was, lost hope in himself, had no goals, wanted to just lose me and die. However, since seeing how I have taken all this and the talks we've had he has changed a lot.
He know he wants to be with me till the day we die (marriage, kids, home, etc. This is completely foreign to him due to his parents' experiences), he has stopped going out, stopped drinking, started making goals, and he is tolerant & patient (no angry outbursts).<p>My main problem is how do I overcome the want to know all about the details, images, situations and confrontation with the OP.<p>I just found out (from a reliable source -her sister to a female I know) that she did lie to me. She wasn't drunk at all, and she did use the opportunity that I was out of the house to set him up. I want to ask her how she could be so cruel to disregard other people's feelings just so she got what she wants in this world?
My s/o also wants to talk to her too.
What should I do?
I do want him to issue the message of the NC letter, that he regrets what he did to me and she was wrong if she thought he wanted any kind of relationship with her.
I don't want it left unsaid to her even if it is obvious.

Eli,
I certainly understand that you trust your friend, it wasn't here that I was worried about. AND it seems that your s/o is ready and willing to make the necessary changes. But I wonder if you could think of his issues with sex, not so much as a moral failing, but as an addiction.<p>
So, when one realizes and admits that one has, say, a drug or alcohol addiction there are certain steps that need to be taken in order to recover. The first is admitting the problem and seeking help. That seems to be the point you are at right now. But part of the process of recovery particularly in the early stages is removing the opportunity or the access to whatever substance has been abused. in your case that would be sex.<p>Or, as Dr. Harleys says so well, "The conditions under which the affair happened need to be changed." Trust is a good thing. And I'm sure that your friend deserves your trust. I hope that in time your s/o will be worthy of it as well.<p>At this point in his recovery, living in close proximity with another woman is pretty much the same as putting a bottle of whiskey in front of a newly admitted alcoholic, or heroin in front of a drug addict. It's not so much that he will want to betray your trust, but that he has an addiction. It is setting him up for failure.<p>Now, about the OW. He should not see or speak to her again EVER. Not about the no contact, not to say goodbye, not even to tell her that he thinks she is a terrible person. Any contact draws out the emotional connection. The two of you should write the letter together. It should be shorty, factual and to the point, as I indicated earlier, and then neither of you should have anything to do with her.<p>The way to overcome resentment is to leave the past in the past. You have a right to know everything that happened, in as much detail as you want. If he is truly ready to recover and repair then he should answer all your questions completely. With radical honesty. Take about a week to do this.<p>After that, don't bring it up. Set up the parameters of recovery. Accountability 24/7... time, money, whereabouts. Commit to eliminating all LBers, and to meeting EN's.<p>Bringing up the infidelity will only prolong the resentment. You cannot change the past, you can only move forward. The way to overcome all those feelings is to think about something else.<p>In our M, there are subjects that are off limits. We do not mention
Texas, or the city of Houston. We don't talk about some parts of our earlier relationship that have nothing to do with the cheating, because it brings back memories of that time, for me. If we drive somewhere and there is a strip club, it is uncomfortable, but we say NOTHING.<p>It's taken a long time for me to get to this point and to understand the necessity of being here. For so long I wanted to let him know over and over again how badly he hurt me. But it only hurt me more to continue to talk about it.<p>We still take the accountability precautions, and I will continue to check up on him for the rest of our lives together. Actually it is good if both partners encourage the other to keep tabs on them. It keeps temptation to a minimum and fosters trust.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

Spywife....<p>Where are yoooooooooooooou????? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>C

To Eli<p>>Spacecase posted some more good stuff. "Why we ask questions". Also, I read an article by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D about infidelity. Along the line of what you and I need SW. We are each individuals in that we decide and know how much information we want to know, and we decide what the goal is in the relationship. Tell me if you wnat to read it.<p>Sure, I'd love to. Reading about SA and COSA is my life these days.<p>Cerri,<p>Hi - thanks for missing me!!! :-)<p>I've been really deep in accepting this codependence piece, but I think that I have been able to identify with alot of it and am working hard on me. <p>I had gone to Borders about a week and a half ago. This young man approached me asking if I needed help. I asked for help in finding SA books. Well, this guy takes me to the sex-book section, brought me a chair and told me to take my time. There was nothing there about SA, just everything you ever wanted to know about all kinds of sex. So then he came back and asked if I needed more help. I told him that I was looking for sex-addiction-recovery books, not sex books. I think I broke his heart. He took me to the recovery section and left me alone. Didn't offer me a chair this time either. :-)<p>All Borders had were the Carnes books, some of which I have already looked at, and think that while my husband could benefit from them, I need something for me.<p>I've been a wreck for weeks. Mostly internal. Of course you can't discuss this with most people, so I have just been in private turmoil, except when dealing with H, whom I lash out at and fall apart saying the same things I said to him last time I fell apart.<p>Well, I ended up at the 12 step store, which I have always loved and been there in the past for smoking issues, drug stuff with ex, etc. I love that store - it is so full of peace. I should have began there and walked out with about 8 books. So I've been reading ever since. I'm sort of skipping around between a few of them, but the book "Living with your Husbands Secret Wars" is it. Have you read it? <p>It is so exactly what is happening in my life. It is written with a strong spiritual side, so it may not be for everyone, but It was just what I needed. There are times in reading it, that I need to put it down and work through that topic mentally for awhile or a few days. During that time, I've got these daily affirmations for Forgiveness and Moving On, and reading Co-dependent No More. <p>I'm taking the time to do the work and get through this. It has been beneficial to me and allowed me to stop controlling him. I feel like I am moving in the right direction, although since I have backed off, H isn't doing much relationship fixing or addressing SA. Ha!!! It isn't my problem. He can fix and we can get better or I'll just fix me and go on. I've come so far. I think.<p>H got the info from the Meadows, but hasn't shared it yet. We still havent gotten back to the LB or EN questionarres that we both filled out (weeks ago) and read but have not discussed. My needs still aren't being met, so none of that is very good. He's been busy fishing. Never brings home a fish though. Says that he just throws them back. I know that he usually really is fishing, but he's going about ten times a week. For Pete sakes, if you aren't bringing home fish, what is the point? He says it relaxes him, but so much for the finding common activities.<p>So I guess the relationship isn't moving forward. He brings me presents, and comes over for dinner and whatever else he can get. He helps me with handy-man projects around my house. I suppose where I am at is, until he can face his issues and make the relationship a priority, then all I can do is work on me. I feel good about that.<p>My insides are still a hell, but I have found all of the above a new way to cope.<p>Whatch think about all of that? Next, I'll be burning incense, doing yoga and smoking hash!<p>So, that's what is up with me - oh yeah - and the on line COSA group. Also found some local meeting but haven't been able to get to one. The online group is very helpful to me and reaffirms me in my go-on-for-me quest.<p>The puppies are obnoxious. The are very sweet, just opened their eyes. Also figured out how to get out of their puppy prison so tonight I have to find a new way to out-smart them. The yip and whine and make puppy noises all night. Mom-dog and I have had about enough of them. They really are darling though and I just love puppy-breath.<p>Now then - what have you been up to? How is the relationship and are you doing anthing special for the long weekend of 4th of July?<p>Hugs,
Spy Wife.

Spywife!
Hi! I thought I was gonna hafta go on a quest to find you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You can join me in any wildly new age activities [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] tonight is the full moon, I think I will be ritualling alone as much of the group is out of town.<p>I'm sure my family has plans for the 4th. I only have crises that weekend. 3 years ago we were living at my mom's after we sold our farm and had nowhere to go..... she threw us out weekend of the 4th.<p>2 years ago I spent a day in jail after big fight with h, MY son called the cops and I went away in handcuffs [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Really, I'm quite the pacifist.... really.<p>Last year a tiny bump I've had on my head forever got infected and I had to go to the ER in the middle of the night and then have surgery the next day to remove it.<p>Can't wait to see what the gods have in store for me THIS year.<p>Sounds like you are getting some good info. We read one of the Carnes books, the first one I think. I suppose there are more available now as sexual addiction becomes recognized as a real addiction.<p>I know that needs not being met is frustrating. But I'm learning from experience that protection must come first. Try to ndo things with women friends or alone that give you some feelings of being cared for. I know it's not optimal, but while you work through the need for him to take your feelings into account on EVERY decision, it will help alleviate the loneliness.<p>Also, have you checked out the copdependency article here? I'll link it and you can tell me what you think about how it relates to you.<p>Wish I had more time, but I gotta get to the Y... too much fun and food over the weekend.<p>Oh, and we are doing better. H is making progress in the protection piece, and that helps. Now about that need for conversation........ [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri<p>[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: cerri ]</p>

Here's the link:
Codependency/Marriage

Cerri,<p>My goodness. You have quite a history on the 4th of July, wild girl!!! Maybe you had better just stay home and get to bed early.<p>Talk to me more about protection. I have discovered why we do the LBs first. Even though he is doing things that he thinks I would like (and I do) like gifts and help w/house, the LBs just tear it down. And my priority needs are simply ignored. <p>So what new-age things are you enjoying? Don't get offended - do you have a wing of a dead bird?<p>Tell me also, what is your favorite COSA book that you have read? I also got one that looked good called "When your lover is a liar" but haven't getten close to that one yet. Some of the titles really crack me up.<p>Carnes also has a newer book dealing strictly with internet stuff which is probably worth reading, but for now I need to be self-centered - and I mean that in a good way.<p>Need to go - more tomorrow.<p>Missed ya!<p>Spy Wife

Hello Cerri & SpyWife,<p>Just sitting in again.<p>You've given some more to ponder on. He has called himself an addict, so in that sense he has come to terms with it, but he's so busy with work (true I do check on him) that he doesn't put hardly any time into working on that issue. Also, I think his case is very minor, as he says he doesn't think about it hardly at all now.
Of course, he get the very occasional email soft-pictures, guys talking about it, and obviously TV/movies sell it all the time, but he said he used to seek it. Now, he avoids it if he can and he said he's made up his mind not to do something like like ever again. Mind you, he says it's not that hard for him even though he won't lie that some of the images on TV/movies are provocative?<p>Regarding the conditions under the A: well, it was me not going out with him, he had his life and I had mine. Though, there is still more for me to learn about what he felt, thought, and went through during those times.
Also, I won't be leaving him alone with a female that I do not trust again. In fact, I told him that he's not allowed to be alone with any female with the sexception of my best friend whom I trust completely.<p>Regarding OW, he has no emotional connection with her. She was manipulative: she saw that I'd moved out (from stupid me), and she came up with a story about being dumped by a guy she was in love with (even though, she had sex with another guy just 2 wks before & tried to hook up with another less than a wk before), and that all her friends weren't available to comfort her. And how much she didn't want to be alone. She got him drunk (sure she didn't add anything to his drink, but he was in his home and it's easy getting him to drink as that is/was his main addiction).
He just revealed that he doesn't think she was drunk as she told me. She was tipsy, but not drunk. And, that's why he is hurt by her.
He never had any such feelings for her, she is a whore like all the rest.<p>Also, I read a thread from the General board that I really liked, by Howbre "Formerly cheating husband needs advice ":
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=018200<p>I feel like I am going through the emotions that many of them described, adn I can relate to Howbre's wife.<p>Now, here's the snippet of "Why we ask questions":
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The "Need to Know"
by Peggy Vaughan<p>Why we need answers to our questions
When learning of our partner's affair, most of us feel an intense "need to know" - asking questions to try to make some kind of sense out of what has happened.<p>Here's an excerpt about this from my book, The Monogamy Myth
"When a person discovers their mate is having an affair, their world suddenly turns upside down. In order to recover any sense of balance, they need to get more information and understanding of the situation. Without answers to their questions, they convince themselves that the answers must all be bad; otherwise why wouldn't they be told what they want to know. They feel they're being treated like a child, and they resent it." <p>"If the information didn't exist, it wouldn't be so frustrating and demeaning. But they know their partner has it, and simply refuses to give it to them. This makes a balance of power in the relationship impossible... It's doubtful if trust can ever be restored in a relationship where this persists."<p>"I remember how tough it was on my husband when I continually asked more and more questions. Intellectually, I wanted to move on and get over it, but emotionally I needed the ongoing support and understanding he gave me. It was extremely important that he never said, "enough is enough, let's get on with our lives." Of course, nobody would choose to go through the thousands of hours of talking about this if there were some other way. In my own case, I think it was an essential part of overcoming my feelings and finding peace of mind." (end of excerpt from "The Monogamy Myth") <p>While I have consistently heard this same thing from thousands of people during the past 20 years, there's still a great reluctance on the part of those who have had affairs to answer questions and to continue talking about the whole situation. Unfortunately, there has also been a large segment of the therapeutic community that has reinforced the idea that too many questions and too much talking is not for the best. <p>I now have statistical data that demonstrates the connection between honest communication and both staying married and recovering. I have posted some results from my Research Questionnaire that may help people see the importance of respecting this "need to know." <p>While it's important to get answers to your questions IF you ask questions, this does NOT mean you "should" ask questions unless/until you really want to know. It's just that it's essential to get answers if you DO ask.
While for most people, "getting answers to your questions" is a key ingredient in rebuilding the trust and building a strong marriage, no one should be forced to hear things they don't want to hear. But if they DO want to hear details, they deserve to have their questions answered. It's the WILLINGNESS of the partner to answer questions that is so critical, not whether or not you ASK for the answers. <p>So each person needs to decide for themselves the timing of when/what/how much they want to know. (It's important to determine that you really want the truth, and are not just hoping for some kind of reassurance or disclaimers.) For most people, "not knowing" is worst of all - because their imagination fills in the blanks and the wondering never ceases.

Good morning!!<p>My goodness. You have quite a history on the 4th of July, wild girl!!! Maybe you had better just stay home and get to bed early.<p>In Hudson (WI) there is a huge party that goes on every night for a week around the 4th. Much of it is family centered, bands and carnival, but as in all WI activities there are copious amounts of beer [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm hopeful that we can get there one of the nights anyway, and stay out of the local jail and hospital.<p>Our house is about 5 miles from the rivers, St. Croix and Mississippi, and we are on top of a hill, which is on top of the river bluff. From our room we can see fireworks all from several river towns. It's pretty cool. So, maybe early to bed is a good option LOL<p>The kids want to see MIB II but I keep telling then that I won't be able to, I have a
crisis planned. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Talk to me more about protection. I have discovered why we do the LBs first.<p>Ahhhh, I figured it wouldn't be long. I am very sensitive on the protection issue swince the abuse was so awful and went on for so long. What is it that he does? Abuse starts at the demand stage. Where one person expects the other to do something for him or her, regardless of how that person would feel doing it. It is the attitude that one person has a right to control or dictate another's behavior.<p>So the usual pattern is first you make a demand (as opposed to asking "How would you feel about doing this thing for me?" and then working together to find a solution that makes you both happy at the same time.) <p>If the demand doesn't get the desired result, then it moves to disrespectful judgements. "If you really loved me, you don't understand the importance, you are way out of line, you need an attitude adjustment, you're selfish......." you get the idea.<p>And if that doesn't work, then we pull out the big gun, the angry outburst. <p>Of course, all three can and frequently are delivered all at once, which makes for a particularly lovely evening at home. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Also, don't overlook Annoying Behavior, which I hear has been split into 2 separate LBers, annoying habits and independent behavior. The things he does which drive you insane. Can be as mundane as snoring and as terrible as infidelity. I have a list of something like 39 that H does.<p>
So what new-age things are you enjoying? Don't get offended - do you have a wing of a dead bird?<p>It's pretty hard to offend me [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . My background is in Catholic mysticism and law, when I left the church I spent a number of years in the NA movement. A lot of meditating and taking god out of the 'old man in the sky' box. Very peaceful. A few years ago I joined a Wiccan teaching circle and am now an initiated Witch.<p>No, I don't do dead animal parts [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] , but a lot
of my friends do. The closest I come is collecting bird feathers off the ground.<p>I celebrate the traditional pagan holidays, equinoxes, solstices and the mid points between. The full and dark moons, and mostly work at developing my connection to the earth and the awesomeness of the power of nature. <p>Tell me also, what is your favorite COSA book that you have read? I also got one that looked good called "When your lover is a liar" but haven't getten close to that one yet. <p>I don't do a lot of co/d reading. My mom was really into it a few years back.... long story... and I just heard so much from her over and over and over, I just can't pick it up. Besides, I have issues with how that whole philosophy works within marriages. I think we should be co-dependent on our spouses, in a good way.<p>I did read When Your Lover is a Liar. It was excellent. There were a few things that I disagreed with, I can't remember for sure, probably along the lines of accountability and radical honesty. But for the most part it was very good. I read it right after a big honesty blow out here in the spring.<p>Carnes also has a newer book dealing strictly with internet stuff which is probably worth reading, but for now I need to be self-centered - and I mean that in a good way.<p>I like Carnes. And yes, you do need to take care of you and the children. What is up with these men anyway??? If it weren't for my friends at P's thread I would lose hope that there was a chance for any of them.<p>Ok, well I'll probably take heat for that one, but it was a bad night so consider it a vent [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Hugs,<p>Cerri

Hi Cerri,<p>>In Hudson (WI) there is a huge party that goes on every night for a week around the 4th. Much of it is family centered, bands and carnival, but as in all WI activities there are copious amounts of beer<p>This sounds fun. We don't have anything like that here. Just severalplaces that put on a fireworks display. This year our forrest fires are so bad and everything is so dry, it may affect the displays. <p>>The kids want to see MIB I but I keep telling then that I won't be able to, I have a crisis planned. <p>I want to see it too. My world is a crisis right now, but a movie is a welcome escape.<p>>Ahhhh, I figured it wouldn't be long. <p>It wasn't long at all. The LBs are really eating me up and destroying efforts on both sides.<p>>Wat is it that he does? Abuse starts at the demand stage.<p>Mine was never pysically abusive. It's mental manipulation. He constantly is saying "maybe I should just get out of your life" and I'm not feeling any security in the relationship. He's the one that made me crazy and insecure. I wasn'tlike that a few months ago.<p>>makes for a particularly lovely evening at home.<p>Well put. We've all had a few too many of those in recent weeks, huh? <p>>Also, don't overlook Annoying Behavior, a list of something like 39<p>LOL. I've not counted, but I'm certain that it would be an ever-evolving list. I can think of a dozen off the bat though.<p>>I don't do dead animal parts, but a lot of my friends do. <p>When I was a teenager, many years ago, I babysat for two witches who were sisters. The would collect the dead bird wings, but I never knew what that was all about.<p>>equinoxes, solstices and the mid points between. <p>Have you ever been to Sedona, Arizona? <p>>I have issues with how that whole philosophy works within marriages. I think we should be co-dependent on our spouses, in a good way.<p>I somewhat agree with this. I love being a caretaker of my husband and kids. I never saw it as a bad thing. I am now on the unhealthy side of it where I'm so devestated by his behaviors, moods and attitudes and doing unhealthy things myself as a result. I have to get myself under control.<p>>When Your Lover is a Liar. It was excellent. <p>Glad to hear it. I'll probably be ready for it next week.<p>>If it weren't for my friends at P's thread I would lose hope that there was a chance for any of them.<p>Maybe I need to spend some time there because my hope is not as solid as it was a few weeks ago.<p>
Gotta go for now...
Spy Wife

Hey you,<p>Thanks for the codependency link. I makes me feel better and here is why.<p>I like being a caretaker, and I like doing things for others, sometimes I do so in unhealthy ways, but overall I liked who I was before I was cast into SA hell.<p>The part of me that is codependent that I have to get rid of is the part of me that is wrecked and trying to fix his SA. I know I'm human, however, my whole self-esteem is ruined in reaction to his affairs. <p>I do want to be a vulnerable person to my husband, when my husband is deserving of that. At the same time, when he isn't deserving of that, I can not be ripped to shreads every time I get suspicious.<p>I do have to fix this about me. If he fixes him, fabulous. Maybe we will have a wonderful life together, but I am unable to do his work for him in this area. That is what I was trying to do - to force him to see it the way I see it and become who I nneeded him to be.<p>In accepting this, I have moved forward. I'm still a wreck, but I'm pointed in the right direction.<p>Gotta go,
More tomorrow.<p>Spy Wife

Hey Gals,<p>You both sound somewhat sane.
I'm still insane in the membrane. Still in limbo.
He's talking about committment and moving on, and I still have questions. I think this is because my discussion times feel like I had to beg him for it.
Also, the phrase "it's been 5 mths already" makes my blood boil. It's been 5 mths since I knew about any PA's, and it's only been 2.5 mths since I've known that it's been 4 yrs of lies/double-lives.<p>Anyway, you are both doing things for yourself, carrying on with life which I do as a façade only.
I'm glad you are talking about LB'ing as I've been doing that big time. I know why too.
He keeps putting down boundaries (the physical attacts I agree with, but I won't agree with him telling how long I should take to get over it or how I should be acting), ultimatums and acting like he has a right to be angry back at me.
Do you partners do this?<p>I assume you are both in Plan A, yes?
Well, I'm not sure how you both interpret it, but there's a discussion posted by Distressed called "The Misapplication of Plan A" Feb-27th 2001.
Have you read it?<p>I got my books from Amazon last night:
(1) SAA
(2) After the Affair, and
(3) Out of the Shadows<p>I skimmed through them as you would in a book store, and I am a little puzzled. I'm sure I'll get something out of them, but do you both think SAA addresses non-committal one-night stands or prostitutions?<p>Also, from Out of the Shadows, what if the person is not an addict? I recall Dr. Harley writing something about control being an important element in the definition.
Of course, I think I'll take the cautious path and take it as if he has a slight case of SA.
Having said that, I think if he was a classic case, then I'm going to have a hard time as I believe that I would be a chronic/pathetic co-dept.<p>I guess, all of my ranting is asking how do you accept the person that they've turned out to be?<p>How can we be in love with someone like that?

Hi Eli,<p>You both sound somewhat sane.<p>Two plus years of recovery. Lots of crying on the bathroom floor,lots of antidepressants, a long time of being suicidal.<p>He's talking about committment and moving on, and I still have questions. I think this is because my discussion times feel like I had to beg him for it. <p>There is a period after d-day during which you should be able to ask all the questions you have. If he is willing to anser honestly and completely, then after say, a week, drop it.
If you continue to find new info, then of course you need to keep asking. So, it depends on the circumstances.<p>
Anyway, you are both doing things for yourself, carrying on with life which I do as a façade only.<p>There's a saying in the addiciton and recovery industry, "Fake it til you make it." <p>The only one who can control if you carry on and take care of you, is.... YOU. It won't feel right at first, so you fake it.Continue to develop the habit of taking care of you, behaving appropriately, until it feels natural.<p>
I'm glad you are talking about LB'ing as I've been doing that big time.<p>There is no excuse for a LBer. NONE. We've all been there. Our spouse does something, big or little, that we don't like and we strike out. Either physically or with words. It's the Taker's way of trying to get what is good for us. But the results are that we lose in the long run. We lose the love and the respect of our spouse. <p>He keeps putting down boundaries (the physical attacts I agree with, but I won't agree with him telling how long I should take to get over it or how I should be acting), ultimatums and acting like he has a right to be angry back at me.
Do you partners do this?<p>Somewhat. But, no matter what, you are responsible for your own actions. Find a way to calm yourself when you begin to feel upset. Don't discuss things until you are calm, and then do it with a smile on your face. <p>I assume you are both in Plan A, yes?<p>Plan A is not a lifestyle choice. It is designed to separate the spouse from a lover, ( or to bring one out of deep withdrawal). To show that you are willing and able to change the things about yourself that your spouse finds unattractive or offensive.<p>Once those goals have been accomplished the usefulness of Plan A is finished. You should be working a good recovery plan. Which includes 24/7 accountability for time whereabouts and money, commitment to and a plan for eliminating LBers, and finally for meeting the most important EN's. Included in all that is a commitment to and a plan for following the rules of Time, Honesty, Protection and Care.
but do you both think SAA addresses non-committal one-night stands or prostitutions?<p>Is it sex? Does it involve being sexually aroused? Is it done at the risk of health, happiness and relationship? IMO sexual addiction is MOST about the type of activities you mention.<p>Also, from Out of the Shadows, what if the person is not an addict? I recall Dr. Harley writing something about control being an important element in the definition.<p>Hmmmmm..... I'm not sure which Harley writing you are referring to, but Dr. Harley calls all infidelity an addiction of one sort or another. Either to the person in the case of a's that have an emotional attachment, or to sex, in the cases where there are many partners and the need seems to be for the activity rather than the person.<p>Of course, I think I'll take the cautious path and take it as if he has a slight case of SA.<p>From the behaviors that you describe, and his young age, I would call it a very well advanced case. My h was in a 12 step group with men who were primarily 40 and over. Your b/f is doing things that it took some of them a lifetime to work up to.<p> then I'm going to have a hard time as I believe that I would be a chronic/pathetic co-dept.<p>Sorry I don't buy most of the co/d stuff when it comes to romantic relationships. Did you read the link I posted above?<p>I guess, all of my ranting is asking how do you accept the person that they've turned out to be?<p>Accepting the person by no means signifies that you should accept behavior that is not acceptable. And in MB land that can be as benign as watching tv while eating dinner. You should have expectations, which are different than demands.... but that's another lecture [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>How can we be in love with someone like that?<p>Until you are well into a good plan for recovery, you cannot. You might still love him now, and for a while more, but eventually the things that hurt you will take their toll, and you will eventually despise him, and yourself.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

Hi Eli,<p>>You both sound somewhat sane.<p>Nope. Definately not sane, just trying to pick up the pieces and go through the motions. Like Carri says....fake it till you make it. I'm just trying to live in the here and now and stop obsessing about what has been done to me.<p>>talking about committment and moving on, It's been 5 mths <p>It takes what it takes. I'm nowhere near 5months, in fact, almost three months since I found out. I'm not ready to move on in the relationship until I patch my self-esteem back up and until he faces and deals with his issues.<p>>carrying on with life which I do as a façade only.<p>It's absolutely a facade. It is not good for my kids and my boss, and anyone else see me constantly go to pieces. I am destroying me, so I have decided to work on the pieces that are mine to work on. Any good I do stays with me whether I continue in the relationship or not.<p>>I won't agree with him telling how long I should take to get over it <p>I'm not sure there is a magic number, I suppose it would depend on what progress is being made.<p>>Do you partners do this?<p>No, not out loud anyway. He knows where I stand, but he isn't moving in that direction.<p>>in Plan A, yes?<p>I guess you could call it that. We haven't progressed into what I would call a recovery stage.

>books<p>I've read much of thoese. I've moved on now to books for me. I highly recommend, "Living with your husbands secret wars". Even though Cerri won't agree, I also am benefitting greatly from "Codependent no more".<p>>but do you both think SAA addresses non-committal one-night stands or prostitutions?<p>Absolutely. The non-emotional attachment - "it was only sex" thing is much of what I have found SA to be about. If they were looking for love, it wouldn''t be with a hooker.<p>>if he was a classic case, then I'm going to have a hard time as <p>It is progressive. I've seeen that both in my H and in my research.<p>>I believe that I would be a chronic/pathetic co-dept.<p>Next email, I will adress this.<p>>accept the person that they've turned out to be?<p>I don't accept the person that he turned out to be. I need that removed or at a minimum seriously addressed before I can work on this a rest-of-my-life-marriage.<p>Read, read, read...
Spy-wife