Hey chick,

Even Dr. Harley is JUST a member LOL... so I guess I'll be satisfied with that. I remember when I noticed my status changed I was just tickled too!

A nice golden retriever would keep you company out there mowing your grass.....they will be "on sale" this weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Obviously, you haven't read far enough back to have heard my tirades about pets and such. We (using the term loosely) have a dog. A big very dirty should be white smells awful from the dead animals he brings home from the neighbors, dog. Oh, and he barks at night. IF H remembers to put him in the garage he'll be quiet. That's about a 50/50 proposition. AND he leaves dead animal bones lying about the yard for me to hit with the mower. I like little dogs. House dogs.

We have 3 cats too. Well, actually 2 3/4 since Ginger is missing a back leg. Keeps him from jumping onto tables and counters!

A rabbit. Best pet in the world. Quiet. Lives in a hutch outdoors. Cheap.

And a horse. And that's where you don't want to get me started. We had 4. They were supposed to be gone more than a year ago. It is not a pretty situation. One of the very big reasons for not being in love with spouse.

How did the bank visit go? Did you get approved to accept charge cards?

Really well. They were more interested in myb house than anything. (I'm an artist so rooms like my office are pretty cool.) I think so. The stuff will come directly to me, no to the local bank, but they said that there weren't any questions from the merchant co. that would indicate a problem. So.... waiting.....

Thanks for sending the persistent summary...that helps me to follow along. I've been out of it for nearly a week though, and don't have time to read everything I missed (you guys put some traffic into that thread) so I'll just pick up where you are.

Yeah, it's like a internet soap. Ya just gotta jump in.

When you get around to it, please send your thoughts on finding a MC /coach that will support the Harley principals and having insurance cover to rain_mom@hotmail.com. Thanks.

Yes, I will.


He has been going to SA meetings for the past week or so, he's been to 4 or 5 that I know of. The first one he talked a bit about with me, now he says that he isn't supposed to discuss it outside of the meetings.

Yeah, hubby said that too. I think they really stress the confidentiality stuff. But I think it's more to keep them from spreading gossip than discussing with their spouses.

know that he shouldn't be telling me everyone elses stuff, but what I am wanting to hear is what he is finding there for him. Does he identify, is it helping him to see, etc. He is very judgemental and views himself about others, so I am not surprised about his comment that they are all loosers. I haven't pushed him to discuss it, but wish he would.

IF he sticks it out, here the group asked that he try it for at least 6 weeks before deciding, AND if he works the program, his views will change. That's part of the addictive personality profile.

Oh another thing, his best freind just thinks I am crazy for leaving a wonderful have-it-all-guy like H, so I asked H if the friend knew about all of the sleazy stuff and he said no. Doesn't care to share that. He then said he would also never tell his mom (I haven't asked him to, he just added this), he can't hurt her.

Amazing the ways they can fool themselves, isn't it?

That just kills me and I have alot of resentment about that. He isn't even close to his mom, but is is ok for him to hurt me. This infuriates me. Of course since he isn't really talking to me it has not been addressed.

I went (still am actually) for years with a bed that aggravated my ongoing back pain. Told H over and over again. Couldn't get around to doing anything about it. But, the night we decided to let the dog sleep in the garage he wouldn't rest until we found a blanket for the dog to sleep on. The dog who sleeps on the rocks, the cement, the dirt, the wood porch floor, could not sleep on the garage floor without padding. My take on it??? The dog's comfort is far more of a priority than mine.

After him being around (in a in-the-room, not a in-the-relationship way) on saturday and then these comments, I didn't feel compelled to meet his SF needs (although I said it mich nicer) so he left and is not a happy boy this week. It just keeps going from bad to worse.

I don't think you should be meeting that need. He's not doing anything for you. (As you can see, I'm not a big advocate of the Plan A lifestyle.)

So, about you, and the love issue....has it been like that long?

We got married Oct 2000. I was so happy and soooo in love. For exactly THREE WEEKS. He started a new job at the same time, and that took priority. Long days, too tired to spend time with me, putting tons of effort into pleasing boss and STILL not meeting needs. The abuse escalated again. I was so depressed I was seriously suicidal. That was the last time I've had feeling of love for my husband that lasted more than an hour.

Do you have a peaceful homelife or a homelife of indifference?

Neither of those wonderful sounding things. We have a (from my POV) a very tense homelife. He doesn't like my kids, and treats them with contempt at the worst end and indifference at the best. He demands that I enforce HIS rules and ways of living. He yells at the kids. He does things that hurt and annoy the snot out of me. I am always afraid of the next tirade, they come out of the blue.

Does he make efforts to address your needs?

I think he would say he does. But because there is no plan, no structure, it's hit or miss and he fails.

Do you meet his anyway?

Well, #1 is attractive spouse. I can't help how I look, but I don't make the effort I used to. Hanging out in sweats is not an option since it was listed as an annoying behavior, so I won't do that. Passive neglect.

I'm on a cleaning strike so my usually wonderful house is a PIT. You cannot see the first layer of toys on the kids floor. (He's unbelievably disorganized and has clutter that would frighten a navy seal..... which I have complained about, MB style, for years.) But everyone else is supposed to live by the model home clean rules. Hmmmm mmmmmm Not happening any more.

Our once frequent and wonderful sex life is pretty scarce. Much of that due to the fact that I sleep in the guest room because he snores. It's been 8 months since I couldn't take the lack of sleep and started sleepin in there. He still hasn't gotten around to seriously addressing it.

Recreation? Occasional. Right now, doing the MB program, I'm committed to 15 hours a week if I like it or not. Lately it's been half and half..... depending on whether or not he can say more than mmm hmmmm.

Admiration... rare.

Affection..... sometimes, if I feel like it.

Definitely passive resistence on my part. I don't reccomend it. But I got tired of doing all the giving. Now I have some bargaining power.

I don't remember off hand....how many of the kids are his?

He has one D, turns 15 this week, lives with her mom. Only child of divorced parents,m draw your own conclusions.

Do the MB weekends help your relationship and do you beleive that love might return? Does my coach need some coaching? Are you comfortable talking about this?

Yes, the weekends will help, IF both people put in the work. They are more than just the weekend, it's a 24 session follow up course as well. 12 HN/HN lessons and 12 LBers lessons. We went in March 2001. Me in deep w/d. He promised to stay on track, but by week 2 he was saying it was ok to fall behind. Guess how far we got???

We worked with Steve Harley Dec-Mar of this year. It was disastrous. I can do the things that need to be done. But without some real obvious effort on H's part, I'm choosing not to. If I could afford to leave and still house and feed my kids, I would do Plan B. I think. Without having kids together, I sometimes wonder what the point is of trying to save this M. At one time, I really loved him. More than I ever loved anyone. But with the things he's done to me and the kids???? I dunno if I can get past that. It would take a big turn around.

Now, the program is the same I'm doing for the cert. The thing is he doesn't have to play along. I"m required to do it. So far he's doing the stuff.... so we'll see. When this group I took the class with is done with the follow up, we'll be given couples from the wekends to follow. They'll be the ones who are struggling with keeping on track. We'll be assessed on how well we can motivate and help them.

As I'm sure you know, most MC's do not agree and would love to dig up mud. How would you go about convincing everyone, H included that this might be a better way to go. The other way was obviously not working since when we would leave MC's office, he would be in a no-talking snit for days.

Well, you have to be proactive in interviewing couselors. These are questions you should ask:

1. What is your goal...... should be to save the marriage.

2. Do you have a plan?....... should be to restore love by eliminating hurtful behaviors and implemeting meeting needs

3. What is your success rate for saving marriages?

4. Are you capable of motivating reluctant husbands?

You should ask these questions no matter what the reputation of the C.

You could also order the workbook, 5 Steps to Romantic Love and ask the C if he/she will facilitate you through it.

TTFN....

Oh..... another fan of the Disney pantheon..... I love Pooh and Tigger!!

C

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Morning!~!

Pulled a muscle by logging too many hours at my desk. Today, I am on my back with computer on my tummy. I am not an addict..... I could quit any time. Really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's a site that you might find interestin. She does coaching and therapy. Her stuff is very much like MB. Dr. H had really good things to say about her at the conference. You might want to see if your insurance will cover her.

C

http://divorcebusting.com/hiremich.html

Hey You,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even Dr. Harley is JUST a member LOL... so I guess I'll be satisfied with that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ok then, but I would put both of you at another membership level.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously, you haven't read far enough back to have heard my tirades about pets and such. We (using the term loosely) have a dog. A big very dirty should be white smells awful from the dead animals he brings home from the neighbors, dog. Oh, and he barks at night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good thing I didn't have you help me write the ad for the newspaper. I can just see it.....Mangy Mutts - Must Go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A rabbit. Best pet in the world. Quiet. Lives in a hutch outdoors. Cheap.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ugh. Had a horrible experience, although it was an inside bunny. Sprayed worse than any cat ever dreamed of. Stank big time. Once when I was cleaning up after it, H had put it in the backyard. My Golden licked the poor thing to death. We told the kids that it must have escaped. I was never so happy for an animal to be dead. Ok, that was really not nice, but I didn't miss is at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And a horse. And that's where you don't want to get me started. We had 4. They were supposed to be gone more than a year ago. It is not a pretty situation. One of the very big reasons for not being in love with spouse.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah yes, I do recall some horse ranting somewhere. I won't even go there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, hubby said that too. I think they really stress the confidentiality stuff. But I think it's more to keep them from spreading gossip than discussing with their spouses.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After the first meeting, H told me an in-depth story about one of the members there. He was disgusted and said that the guy should be taken out and shot. I said something like at least he is working on it and trying to make amends. I said that he shouldn't judge, but identify. I said that there are people that would think he should be shot. I beleive you could have counted that as a big LB - he wasn't impressed. He doesn't share the stories now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IF he sticks it out, here the group asked that he try it for at least 6 weeks before deciding, AND if he works the program, his views will change. That's part of the addictive personality profile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I hope so. And I hope that would be enough for me. I have a hard time letting go of all that happened.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh another thing, his best freind just thinks I am crazy for leaving a wonderful have-it-all-guy like H, so I asked H if the friend knew about all of the sleazy stuff and he said no. Doesn't care to share that. He then said he would also never tell his mom (I haven't asked him to, he just added this), he can't hurt her.

Amazing the ways they can fool themselves, isn't it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is. He presents himself as this ultra straight goody-goody and yes, people think he walks on water. His dark side would floor them. They still beleive that he is the person that I thought he was when we married. They will never know his secret, and I will be the stupid wife who threw it all away for some unknown reason.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The dog who sleeps on the rocks, the cement, the dirt, the wood porch floor, could not sleep on the garage floor without padding. My take on it??? The dog's comfort is far more of a priority than mine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you, and if you M is like mine, your children are also in that status, but not his D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think you should be meeting that need. He's not doing anything for you. (As you can see, I'm not a big advocate of the Plan A lifestyle.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps not. He does do some house things for me. And he mows my grass.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We got married Oct 2000. I was so happy and soooo in love. For exactly THREE WEEKS. He started a new job at the same time, and that took priority. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh gosh Cerri, our lives really are similar. Immediately after our marriage 1/1/00, he took a professor job at the university here. Ate up all of his time. I told him over and over, we are newlyweds and need to make time for us and our family. We came in second...maybe third. That went on for 5 months. By then everything was a wreck and that is when I discovered the first round of internet girls - that was the couple - van-rape-fantasy. Don't know if I told you that whole story. Well he had made time for that. I never again became the priority that I was before marriage. Some men say that women change after getting married but for me it was the other way around. I was a completed conquest requiring no further effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Neither of those wonderful sounding things. We have a (from my POV) a very tense homelife. He doesn't like my kids, and treats them with contempt at the worst end and indifference at the best. He demands that I enforce HIS rules and ways of living. He yells at the kids. He does things that hurt and annoy the snot out of me. I am always afraid of the next tirade, they come out of the blue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can so relate, except mine dosent yell and rage. (Sometimes I do though...) He uses silence, distance and obvious disapproval. It is good to be free of the egg shells.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm on a cleaning strike so my usually wonderful house is a PIT. You cannot see the first layer of toys on the kids floor. (He's unbelievably disorganized and has clutter that would frighten a navy seal
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had seen this on Persistent. I would go crazy - get this - one thing that we have always argued about was me cleaning house. He resents that I spend time doing it and he doesn't care about it. Personally, I can't rest until it is presentable. Also, I always have people over due to sons therapy, so messes bother me extra. He has this big, beautiful house. I assure you it hasn't been cleaned since I moved out in May.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But everyone else is supposed to live by the model home clean rules. Hmmmm mmmmmm Not happening any more.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Double standards upset me too. You forgot to list pigs in your animal inventory. Oops - sorry that wasn't nice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our once frequent and wonderful sex life is pretty scarce. Much of that due to the fact that I sleep in the guest room because he snores. It's been 8 months since I couldn't take the lack of sleep and started sleepin in there. He still hasn't gotten around to seriously addressing it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is much that can be done for snoring. Its funny, H really tried to meet my conversational need for a couple of weeks in June. Things were comming along so well, and the SF desire part was returning. Thigs were looking up. All ruined by an ugle MC afternoon followed by a week of his pouting. Still haven't recovered from that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recreation? Occasional. Right now, doing the MB program, I'm committed to 15 hours a week if I like it or not. Lately it's been half and half..... depending on whether or not he can say more than mmm hmmmm.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">15 hours is tough with a person whom you don't enjoy being around. If we were doing 15 hours, we'd probably see lots of movies. He does not like conversation. Gave his internet girl an earful though....she gave it all back to me. Complaining about wife is apparently much more fun that trying to communicate with her. So yours is pretty much non-verbal too?

You know about similar lives....it seems like at one time his name came up and they had the same name. Maybe I dreamt it. Does his name rhyme with shark?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Admiration... rare.
Affection..... sometimes, if I feel like it.
Definitely passive resistence on my part. I don't reccomend it. But I got tired of doing all the giving. Now I have some bargaining power. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry....it's a tough way to live.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has one D, turns 15 this week, lives with her mom. Only child of divorced parents,m draw your own conclusions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto here too, although he has his half time. I understand how they walk on water.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We worked with Steve Harley Dec-Mar of this year. It was disastrous. I can do the things that need to be done. But without some real obvious effort on H's part, I'm choosing not to. If I could afford to leave and still house and feed my kids, I would do Plan B. I think. Without having kids together, I sometimes wonder what the point is of trying to save this M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand - were you a single mom long?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At one time, I really loved him. More than I ever loved anyone. But with the things he's done to me and the kids???? I dunno if I can get past that. It would take a big turn around.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. I'm there too. I've lost respect for him and that is very not-good. It would take huge things to get it back. Still I can't let go until I know for sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, the program is the same I'm doing for the cert. The thing is he doesn't have to play along. I"m required to do it. So far he's doing the stuff.... so we'll see. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope it helps. Maybe one day we can have the marriages that we thought we married into. It's why I love your Cinderella quote. You deserve to be happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh..... another fan of the Disney pantheon..... I love Pooh and Tigger!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes - have them all and can quote far too many.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Today, I am on my back with computer on my tummy. I am not an addict..... I could quit any time. Really.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you can. Perhaps you should look into voice recognition. Then you could just dictate, although you couldn't insert all of those cute faces. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> http://divorcebusting.com/hiremich.html </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll look into it, thanks.

Well, I am off again for the weekend. My daughter is turning 12 so it's another birthday party and a sleepover with 7 girls. Yikes. Have a good weekend. Talk Monday.

Spy Wife

Sooooo.....

Do you wanna be Cinderella or Snow White?

I suppose you get Cinderella since you still clean, and I'll take Snow White since I live with all the males <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hope your weekend is good. I'm off to the waterpark with TWELVE boys today. Just check the local padded room lockdown for me Monday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hello My Chum,

Spent way too much time over at your persistent place this morning. Very sad.

How are you and how was your day at the water park with all of your men? I guess you did look a bit like Snow White. I guess then, I will be Cinderella. I'm probably a bit more like the princess on Shrek standing up for myself and any other worthy causes.

Kind of a bummer of a weekend. Except that I sold the pups - they are all gone, except for the one that I am keeping. She's very sweet.

Friday, H called and asked if he couldcome over - he had some Carnes assesment that he wanted me to help him with. So I said yes. I was pleased that he was working on it and pleased that he was involving me. So he came over and showed me what he was doing with it. It was a questionarrie that he had filled out about how his addict behaves in certain situations. Well, he had written about "deserving" it, like a reward when he has a good week at work, etc. It brought alot of things back for me. It made me sick. He asked what I thought and I told him it made me sick to my stomach. I told him that maybe I wasn't the one that should be helping him with it, maybe that is what sponsors, etc are for. He wasn't happy with my response. I was very calm and controlled. I wanted to high-five myself for not going topieces and raging about the whole mess. I guess all of this self-help stuff is working for me.

Well, it made me decide that I needed an ocean. The kids haven't been anywhere this summer and we have been tied to home because of the pups. So I decided that we (me and my three) are going to California this week. A mini-vacation before school starts. I havent told H. He won't like it. We are going to leave on Wednesday and come home Saturday. School starts Monday.

The birthday party was nice and I had 9 12-13 year olds sleep over on Saturday. They were great - no tears, arguments or any of the nonsense that went on when they were younger. D cam to me (before the party) to get permission to TP a house in our neighborhood. We talked about it and I told her that I could talk to a neighbor and get permission, but she would have to go clean it upafter the party. She said that it would ruin it if the neighbor knew about it, so we decided that it wasn't a good idea. I thought that it was sweet that she came to me about it instead of trying to sneak and do it (that is what I would have done). She's a good kid.

What's new in your zoo?

Is it safe to assume (from your H hanging up on HT) that your H does not approve of the coaching?

Spy Wife

Eli -- what happened to you?

Yoo Hoo, I'm here.

I've been popping in to check, and trying to write a response when I get a few minutes, but you're both getting ahead of me in more than one way.

Anyhow, I'm just going to post I I wrote, though parts of it is now out dated or have been answered. And, I'll be jumping around a fair bit.

Cerri

Cerri, amazing story! Note: I do not think it great or funny. This is precisely what I am so scared of for the future. Having the past intrude into my life in such a confronting manner. I am with SW, I would have said something to both of them. I would have exposed them. Even if they were man and wife, you can tell there is something wrong there. That is, there isn’t genuine love.
That’s the person I am, NOW.
I’ve turned into this judgemental, loose cannon, mental-case with sooo much anger and hatred.
This is what hurts so much. I am not who I was, and I was a great person.
Most of me is still here, nothing can destroy my inner being, but there is an ugly presence called hate. A feeling I never really had before all of this.

Re: Living Together info, thanks. I’m thinking long and heard about it. To be honest, I don’t think we could really go back to not living together now (me especially). He has agreed to no sex for 3 mths minimum, though he finds it unfair that I dictate (meaning if I can falter, which I don’t intend to).
I’m doing this more to see if he really is an SA. I’ve read a post-med graduate’s article where it is suggested that the first thing is abstinence for 90 days.

Have you heard of this?

We talk a tiny, tiny bit, and S/O now doesn’t really think that he is a SA by definition. He believes he was just a selfish, heartless, [censored] who was completely messed up in the head for all the things that had happened in his life.
He bases this on the fact that he does not want to ever do what he’s done before. He says he has no desire to do so.
Also, my understanding on SA is not just what he did, but his mentality/state when he is acting out.

Now, he’s working on being “priest-like”, so that even when an extremely attractive female walks pass, it doesn’t stir him.

Do you know if this is possible for a man, as we’ve all heard about how men think about sex at least 9 times a day, and they all look (or should I say ogle) in this situation?

SW2002

SW, I am happy for you to hear that your H is going to the meetings. Like your comment about Carnes’ book, there may be many extreme cases told at the meetings to which he may not be able to relate to, but when something hits home with him (known as the “moment”), it will dawn on him.
Now, I’m about to say something that I personally hate to hear. That is, when he is ready he will make the connection.

------------------
Oh another thing, his best freind just thinks I am crazy for leaving a wonderful have-it-all-guy like H, so I asked H if the friend knew about all of the sleazy stuff and he said no. Doesn't care to share that. He then said he would also never tell his mom (I haven't asked him to, he just added this), he can't hurt her. That just kills me and I have alot of resentment about that. He isn't even close to his mom, but is is ok for him to hurt me. This infuriates me. Of course since he isn't really talking to me it has not been addressed.
-------------------

I am really sorry to hear this. I can understand how you may feel.
I remember an ex-colleague of his said he though my S/O was gay because so many girls came on to him, but he did nothing. I was so angry that he didn’t know him for what he was, a dog.
However, be sure that if/when people know they will side with you for your courage, compassion and giving nature.

Now in direct response:

(1) I wished I knew for sure if he is an SA. Sorry, but I tend not to think so based on what he’s said so far. Then again, my gut is wondering if there are issues that he’s struggling with that he is too scared to tell me?
I’m hesitant to put labels on things to hastily.
If he is a full-blown SA, then I may be interested in COSA, but then again I may just leave.
It’s too much to deal with, and I’ve committed enough of myself to him. I hate to sound selfish, but I’ve given most of my teen and all of my adult life to this one person who never had the guts to even break up with me to “sow his oats”.

That reminds me. That’s the most recent feedback from him.
He said he has only been with me, and he was confused as I said before, but he didn’t want to turn around in 10-20 yrs to regret being with one person, for perhaps there was something better out there.
How stupid is that?
He’s normally so caring, thoughtful, and sensitive. Or that’s person he showed me.
Even though that puts things into a little bit of perspective for me, it’s still bloody cruel.

(2) No I haven’t found anyone at all that I can completely relate to.
Okay, one more honest confession, I guess I’m really wanting to find someone with a partner like mine, so I can understand him better.

(3) How many chances have you given him?
Is this the first time your H has been unfaithful?
I’m having a difficult time because this is the 3rd time (period).
He’s saying he never got to this point in the past, which is he’s made a decision to commit.
I believe him, but I wondering if it’s not too late for another “new start”?
I guess, that’s why I’m so set on drudging everything up. Been hurt too many times. I want to see how stupid I’ve been. Completely clueless.
I want my eyes to be completely/wide open in moving forward.

----------------------
After the first meeting, H told me an in-depth story about one of the members there. He was disgusted and said that the guy should be taken out and shot. I said something like at least he is working on it and trying to make amends. I said that he shouldn't judge, but identify. I said that there are people that would think he should be shot. I beleive you could have counted that as a big LB - he wasn't impressed. He doesn't share the stories now.
-----------------------

SW, does your H feel like what he did was the most horrible thing to do to someone you love?
My S/O said that’s how he feels, though he knows there are worse things.

Cerri, I know you are telling me not to stop his soul searching here, but my Taker side just want to punish him for all he’s done. “He’s been selfish, now I will be”.

Like you said SW, “I have a hard time letting go of all that happened”.

SW, I didn’t know your H was a professor. I know it shouldn’t make a difference what the client’s background is, but I wonder if your MC was kind of in awe of that and thus treated him differently.
Just a thought as I’ve seen this a lot.

Finally, I've been away becuase I'm on a destructive path, or depression, whatever you want to call it. Life feels fake to me.

We had a couple of bad blows on the weekend. He threatened to move out. Said he'd had it. I asked him to clarify, and he said he wasn't breaking, just couldn't handle my abuse anymore.
He's been avoiding talking to me about it as usual, but he's taking advantage of my trying to meet him halfway (that is, not bringing it up, having some fun too, etc).

S/O is saying all the right things, "I love you", "I'm never doing that again, ever", "I am committed to you", "I'll be here for you, always", "I was a selfish, [censored]", "I didn't and still do not love myself, that's how I was able to do that, I did care what happened to me", "I know you are the one".

All hog-wash, because he told that last whore that I was the only one he has ever loved, just confused and unstable.

Again, I quote you: "Yeah. I'm there too. I've lost respect for him and that is very not-good. It would take huge things to get it back. Still I can't let go until I know for sure".

The fog is getting thicker. That's why I've not been contributing. Sorry.

Oh, you both may as well know, I'm from the land down under (Australia).
I tried contacting the MB people and to no avail. Do you know if email counselling is available?
I know of this service here, but not the Harley concepts. Besides, I think Dr. Harley has experience with addiction, and Carnes recommends those who have experience with counselling multiple addictions, as this is common.

PS: I love golden retreavers, and pugs.

SW,

Do you have a copy of H's questionaire?
I'd love to see it.
Thanks in advance if you can.

Hi gals... Eli, you need to pick which princess character you want to be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
This is the post I started late yesterday and didn't finish til this morning.... darn kids, always wanting to eat.

Eli, I'll reply to you more later. Hang in there girl.

Oh, and sorry, it's very long...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi!!!

Spent way too much time over at your persistent place this morning. Very sad.

Very sad that you spent so much time there??? Oh.... you mean HT and wife. Yeah, it is, but it's not over yet. He needs to stay on track, take care of himself and let the consequences of her actions catch up to her. HT has a long hx of verbal abuse to overcome, it will take a while. And focus.

How are you and how was your day at the water park with all of your men?

They were sooo good. Last year, I brought cake along... with lots of very dark red (staining) frosting and saved it for taking to the park after we were done in the water. Well!!! Let's just say that was a mistake. A bunch of boys having a frosting fight with red gooey stuff and then needing a ride home in my truck. Ughhhh.....

So this year we had the cake at the pool, rinsed off at the foot washing station and sent them back into the slides to get the rest off. It takes me a while, but I catch on eventually!!

I'm probably a bit more like the princess on Shrek standing up for myself and any other worthy causes.

Well then if you want to be.... what's her name?.... I'll be Ariel from the Little Mermaid. She was cool, rescued the prince instead of the other way around.

She's very sweet.

You must not be in an apt. Not with puppies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What did you name her? And do you have the mom too?

Well, he had written about "deserving" it, like a reward when he has a good week at work, etc. It brought alot of things back for me. It made me sick. He asked what I thought and I told him it made me sick to my stomach.

Yeah, it's very hard to hear how they justify and rationalize what they did. But it is very important information for you to have. In order to protect yourself in the future, you have to know all the ins and outs.

I told him that maybe I wasn't the one that should be helping him with it, maybe that is what sponsors, etc are for. He wasn't happy with my response. I was very calm and controlled.

HWYFA talking to him about how you feel....can you do this without being disrespectful? Tell him that when you see and hear about the things that went on, you feel the hurt and the anger and the fear all over again.

But also, thank him for being willing to be vulnerable and to share that with you. It's a big step. And ask if maybe you could work together on it slowly. Let him know it's as much a struggle for you as it is for him, just in different ways.

I wanted to high-five myself for not going topieces and raging about the whole mess. I guess all of this self-help stuff is working for me.

THAT is very good. I think it took me a lot longer to get to that point. It was very hard when he would come home from the meetings and talk about the things he was learning about himself and the things he had done in the past. I found out things that were terribly upsetting. Keeping one's mouth closed is a good idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I forgot too, how hard it was even physically to find out what went on. When I knew he had registered at a bunch of adult dating sites I would go to the library and search them til I found his ads. I would literally shake so hard I couldn't move the mouse or hit the right keys. The whole world would go black and I'd have this tunnel vision thing going on.

A mini-vacation before school starts.
So unbelievably cool. You'll have a great time. So are ya going to Mouseland?

The birthday party was nice and I had 9 12-13 year olds sleep over on Saturday.

Aackkkk girls!!!!! I don't know what to do with girls!!!!

What's new in your zoo?

Is it safe to assume (from your H hanging up on HT) that your H does not approve of the coaching?

Let's see. Friday night hubby and I went to the Pierce Co. Fair. Ate junk food, drank diet soda and had a great time. Wandered around, petted the animals, looked at stuff. It was good.

Saturday am we got up early and ran some errands. He needed some stuff for the stairway. Ate bkfst at BK... yummy grease <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... and got home right before it rained on our lumber.

At 1 I had scheduled (via POJA)to call HT, so I did that. I was just finishing up when H comes to the door of my office. I let him in thinking he just wanted to check in on how I was doing. Hung up the phone looked at him and nearly fell over. He had a HUGE bloody bruised scrape on his arm and he was looking pretty pale.

Seems that when he cut the hole for the stairway he leaned a little too heavily on the last few inches and fell through to the bsmt. Fortunately, the old stairs were still there so he fell 6' instead of 10' and landed on carpeted steps instead of concrete. But still he landed on his head and was pretty scraped up on his arm and side. I tried not to laugh at the picture of him doing the cartoon thing, cutting the hole and then going through it, but it was hard!!

When I tried to clean him up he got nauseous and dizzy, so I insisted that he go to the doc. He has a broken finger and lots of bruises. Head and neck seem ok. Wouldn't you know the doc was about 25 and cute as a button…. Xray tech too, but she was even blonde. Some days I wonder if it will ever be ok to have a normal life and not be haunted with the past. I'm hyper vigilant about women who cross his path.

Got home at about 4 called HT's wife as he asked me to do, and then just hung out.

Sunday we planned to take the kids to the horse races. They had fan appreciation day and Pepsi family day, so we thought it would be cool to do. Well, it started at bkfst. He asked if I was going to have he kids do anything before we left. I said, like what. He suggested cleaning their rooms. I said that, no, I wouldn't be thrilled about that. I think he asked if I was going to clean the kitchen too, and I said no to that also.

So then it begins. He gets immediately upset and says that if I don't have the kids clean their rooms then we're not going to the horse track. And that he would not be ok with leaving and coming home to a messy house. Ahhhh…. now we've just moved from a request to a demand with a threat. I said fine then, I'm not spending my day with him if he's going to make demands. So he stomps off up the stairs in a huff.

Later he comes down and asks if I want to work on the MB assignment. I should have said no, cuz he was snippy and very adversarial. But I didn't, so we take the book out to the patio and read over the parts of the assignments we haven't done yet. So we decide that even though as a class assignment we skipped the ENQ that he should fill it out and rank his needs. (I'm NOT doing that thing again, I've done it AT LEAST 5 times for him and he doesn't follow it anyway, the one I did in Jan with SH is fine for me.)

So he takes all of 5 or 10 minutes, literally whips through it and hands me a list of his supposed top 5. But they are drastically different from the list in Jan. which is drastically different from the time before, which is drastically different from…….. So I (like an IDIOT) challenge him on the difference. I get out the list from Jan. and show him. First he insists that it's wrong, that he never did it that way, and then that he's just changed, and then that he must not have been thinking when he did the old one. (Like he's thinking really hard after spending 10 minutes on it????!!!)

But here's what I think. He's told me repeatedly that he NEEDS all 10 that are listed. So I think that every time he does the ENQ he looks at the list and sees the one's he's not getting (cuz they weren't on the last list, so why would I do them) and then moves them to the top. I don't think he has ever done the mental work to really think about what it is he needs in a R regardless of who the other person is, and what he is or is not getting at the moment.

Here's the 2 lists
Jan. 02
1.Attr. Sp
2.Aff
3.Rec Com.
4.Admiration
5.SF

Aug. 02
1.SF
2.DS
3.Atr. Sp
4.Rec. Com
5.FS

So, once again like an idiot, I said I thought he should take another look with those things in mind. So he looks at the list says, "If I'm gonna be married and live with someone, she's going to have sex with me, she's not going to be a slob, she needs to look good……"

And that was enough for me…. the slob comment pretty much did it…..so I picked up my books, said I HAD to do this course for the certification, but I didn't have to do it with him, and that he could work on it on his own if he wanted but to count me OUT!

So now I'm crying and I can't stop. And I'm trying to fix lunch for the kids so we can go. And it just keeps getting worse. We talk about the junk that I've complained about for years and that maybe I don't want to leave home and come back to THAT, but I don't hold it over his head every time he wants to go somewhere. And he insists that he should be able to keep what he wants or that I should let him spend more time and money to fix some of the stuff that's here. Oh, it was just ugly. I said maybe he should sleep with his junk and his mowers since they mean so much to him. To which he replied that he should since I won't sleep with him.

That really hurt, since I've been begging him to do something about the snoring for at least 8 months. Longer, it's been 8 months since I couldn't stand it any more and started sleeping in the guest room.

Ohhhhh!!! It makes me so angry. He won't follow through on anything and them blames me for the consequences of that! He just conveniently forgot that he promised me he would talk to the doctor about the snoring and then never did it. That and about a thousand other things.

So, anyway, kids and I go to the races, and he stays home. And THAT is when HT calls.

So is he not ok with the coaching? No, he loves the idea. I talked about it and did the research on the training starting nearly a year ago, so it's not something I just jumped into without discussing it thoroughly.

But see, he's never been ok with there being other people in my life. Friends, kids, when I was working, my coworkers. He does things to sabotage those relationships, and my ability to succeed. Also, because he has traditional schooling… engineering degree and a MS in management, he doesn't see the value of learning in any other way. It's a very narrow focus. So, he doesn't get that anything I do here, or especially by formally working with HT, is educational for me. He can't comprehend that this is a way of learning and so he thinks I'm being taken advantage of.

Also, because he has always had a job in a big company, he doesn't get how much time and work you have to put into a start up before it's profitable. He gets upset at me spending money on advertising and then in the next sentence talks about wanting to start a construction business! My god, can you imagine the cost of just tools and insurance??? That would make my advertising costs look like lunch at Burger King!

It's like he has no ability to be intellectually consistent. And it makes me crazy because there is no constant base to work from, on anything. In fact, I would say the only constant in my life is that he will contradict himself and every statement he makes in some way that I could never imagine ahead of time.

So when HT called, he was mad at me, frightened by the idea that there are other people in my life, and he has no strong basis from which to act. So he behaved like a spoiled 13 year old girl and hung up on him. I can't have the threat of that in my life, and I don't know how to set that boundary.

I sent an email late Sun. nite to his work address telling him how I felt and that I wanted him out of my life and out of my home. So now he is in the upswing part of the abuse cycle. Apologizing, brought me a gift, going out of his way to do things with the kids, you know….. I don't want to go there again. I would rather he leave. But given that he probably won't, I need to find a way to stay out of the cycle. He needs to show me that he is actively working on real change, and I'm plumb out of ideas.

Ok……. I think that vent was over…. Oh wait there's more….

The slob thing. He has: 3 non working riding mowers, 2 non working push mowers, 1 old car no go, 1 old truck no stop, coffee cans full of bent and rusty nails, coffee cans full of messes of nuts/bolts/screws, rolls of old fence wire, old pieces of plastic sheets, 2 old stoves, broken furniture, a file cabinet full of papers from the 80's (w#1), lots of old farm junk..broken, his closet is un-enterable..piled with clothes and stuff, the tops of his dressers were covered..he just moved it all to the drawers, we have a diesel 500 gal tank that has been leaking onto the shelf and the ground for THREE YEARS, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. When I complain he either says I don't give him time to work on it (not true) or that he'll do it "soon."

He's a disorganized slob, who cannot stick to a project long enough to see it to completion. And it just dawned on me this morning that as smart as he is ( and I'm not disputing that) he is mentally very lazy.

Whew….. NOW I think the vent is over!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You'll think twice before you ask again!!

Cerri

C- you forgot about the junk horse! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So what would MB tell you is your next step?

Here are KA's next steps (some conform to MB principles; some conform to Kayla-living-w/challenged-person program):

**Conditions for reconcilliation**
1. Immediately see physician for snoring situation (it's life threatening, as well as major AB to wife)

2. Cut junk pile by 50% - 1 non-working vehicle; 1 non-working riding mower; 1 non-working push mower, etc. And the promise on the horse must be kept.

3. Start working with a therapist on the BPD issue - until then, you're going to take shots like "slob", etc. and he's not even going to feel it (your pain).

4. Spend at least 1 hour journaling on each of his five basic needs; why they are his needs; and why they are weighted higher than the other 5 needs.

5. Spend at least a week in 1 hour sessions, practicing POJA skills. He wants _____________ - and he offers _____________ (like-kind of sacrifice or offering) in return.

6. Make one promise this week - and then keep it (trust building exercise).

7. Make a tally sheet - teeny-tiny-notebook, chicken scratch style) to track lovebusters for the day. How many times did I make a Selfish Demand today? (I really think he needs to wake up to see just how much lovebustin he's doing regularly - and to quote my sales coach: behaviors that are tracked always improve!)

That's my starter list. Now I gotta get back to my sales behaviors, since I brought my coach up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> HT and wife. Yeah, it is, but it's not over yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gathered about the verbal abuse. His M is obviously very important to him and I admire that in a man as I don't see it here on the homefront.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well then if you want to be.... what's her name?.... I'll be Ariel from the Little Mermaid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh, she's princess Fiona - not too crazy about the name. I have red hair like Ariel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you must not be in an apt. Not with puppies What did you name her? And do you have the mom too? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a house. The house I had pre-M, I had rented it out for the past few years. Yes, I have mom. Now they have cute little matching mother/daughter collars and tags. I'm so corny.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, it's very hard to hear how they justify and rationalize what they did. But it is very important information for you to have.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely, still very difficult knowing just what goes through his warped little mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe that is what sponsors are for .......talking to him about how you feel....can you do this without being disrespectful? Tell him that when you see and hear about the things that went on, you feel the hurt and the anger and the fear all over again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that I was respectful the other night. I do appreciate knowing and understanding and his trust in having me do so. However it keeps everything in the present and makes it hard to move on. He last night asked me what I thought about him calling me when he "got the urge" or whatever and we could talk about it. Tough to answer. I said that maybe we could talk, but I don't know what I would be able to say about it. I could try to understand why. I could offer to be that for him, but I don't want to be that for him. Of course what I would really want to do is hit him in the head with a rock.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I knew he had registered at a bunch of adult dating sites I would go to the library and search them til I found his ads. I would literally shake so hard I couldn't move the mouse or hit the right keys. The whole world would go black and I'd have this tunnel vision thing going on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have also done this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So are ya going to Mouseland?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not this time. It hasn't been that long since DLand, so this time we are trying six flags. I've never been there so it will be new to all of us. Then we will spend a day at the beach. We have some extra time built in so that we can stop and smell the roses and not have a stressful schedule. The point is to unwind. I told H about it last night. He wasn't angry, but he isn't happy either. He said that it emphasises our separteness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aackkkk girls!!!!! I don't know what to do with girls!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh come on. You play truth or dare and giggle night.

Yikes, you really had a weekend didn't you? Have you given him another huge bloody scrape yet?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tried not to laugh at the picture of him doing the cartoon thing, cutting the hole and then going through it, but it was hard!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd imagine so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wouldn't you know the doc was about 25 and cute as a button&#8230;. Xray tech too, but she was even blonde. Some days I wonder if it will ever be ok to have a normal life and not be haunted with the past. I'm hyper vigilant about women who cross his path.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that the truth. H has a chiropractor that he sees. She's very pretty, I've seen a picture and he has told me. Why he can't choose an ordinary looking person? Unlike your husband, AS is not a top EN and so the requirement for him to have a PA is merely that she be a slut. Oops - thats a DJ. Comforting. Maybe I need to go find a cute little male doc. Uh, nevermind. All of my docs are women - even my vet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Got home at about 4 called HT's wife as he asked me to do, and then just hung out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So?....can we gossip - was she nice to you and listened and talked to you or was she unpleasant. Ok - if this crosses the line of confidentiality you don't need to answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sunday we planned to take the kids to the horse races. Ahhhh&#8230;. now we've just moved from a request to a demand with a threat. I said fine then, I'm not spending my day with him if he's going to make demands. So he stomps off up the stairs in a huff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad that you didn't let it ruin the day for you and kids, ok well, kids and went anyway without him. I wouldn't have done that in the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> his supposed top 5. But they are drastically different from the list in Jan. which is drastically different from the time before, which is drastically different from&#8230;&#8230;.. So I (like an IDIOT) challenge him on the difference. I get out the list from Jan. and show him. So I think that every time he does the ENQ he looks at the list and sees the one's he's not getting (cuz they weren't on the last list, so why would I do them) and then moves them to the top.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see that this would be a problem with focusing on five, athough his are quite different. I think that to some extent, we all have some need of all ten. But jeez, you can spend 24/7 kissing butt and trying to meet needs and it not balancing out. I also agree with the time alone need from the P thread. You didn't have much to say about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "If I'm gonna be married and live with someone, she's going to have sex with me, she's not going to be a slob, she needs to look good&#8230;&#8230;"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops. Death sentence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so I picked up my books, said I HAD to do this course for the certification, but I didn't have to do it with him, and that he could work on it on his own if he wanted but to count me OUT! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can do it with me. Let's see....you are doing a fine job of meeting my communication need.

Really, I'm sorry that it ended so badly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> traditional schooling&#8230; engineering degree and a MS in management, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, this just gets spookier. H is an engineer. I was thinking that since they have so mastered this double life, we may be married to the same man. You didn't answer the name question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He can't comprehend that this is a way of learning and so he thinks I'm being taken advantage of. Also, because he has always had a job in a big company, he doesn't get how much time and work you have to put into a start up before it's profitable.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a whole different concept. Building a reference base and customer base takes time. Unpaid time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I sent an email late Sun. nite to his work address telling him how I felt and that I wanted him out of my life and out of my home. So now he is in the upswing part of the abuse cycle. Apologizing, brought me a gift, going out of his way to do things with the kids, you know&#8230;.. I don't want to go there again. I would rather he leave. But given that he probably won't, I need to find a way to stay out of the cycle. He needs to show me that he is actively working on real change, and I'm plumb out of ideas.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the most interesting things that I have discovered on this journey is how the abuse cycles happen around eachothers reactions. Now that I have become aware of them, I try not to do my part of the dance that escalates the cycle to the next level. Do you know what I mean? I have tried to change my reaction, and it seems to be working for me. He will of course try to push the hot buttons, but the don't work like they used to. So he will begin to agree with me, but after a good nights sleep, he is back to his old antics and same stuff I've always heard before. Money/sex, money/sex - no need to be friends and communicate until money/sex are where he thinks that they should be. Cart before the horse I say.

Gotta go...
Sorry Eli - back to you tomorrow.
SW

Hi,

I am new to the board and trying to find out where I can fit in. I don't even think they have initials for multiple other women, so OW, doesn't work for me.

Though my H never had a thing for prostitutes, he had 24+ OW during our 18 of our 22 years together...last four years clean. My D day was July 18, 2000. And the revelations, which I thought had been finally done with about a year ago, just were added to the other day, when he sat me down and told me about 4 ones he had forgotten about (one was my best friend...not sure how one can forget about that)
But anyway, he did have one, as he calls it "real affair" with a new anchor he had done some professional work with, that lastest about 2 months, otherwise it was mostly just head, or full sex before we were married (half of the women were before we married while dating, living together and engaged, the other half after we were married....also some frequenting of strip bars. What is appears now after these latest revelations is that he essentially would have sex with anyone that would apply for the job, and as he is very handsome, was even a TV new anchor himself for a while, and runs a video production co., well he had lots of applicants...but also picked up women at bars, secretaries of business associates, old girlfriends...and even my cousin.

So, I realize that you all have been establishing your on line friendship for a while...after reading some of the posts.
But, could really use some help from others that have a more similar experience to mine.
My H was an acoholic, bi-polar, weed addict,and of course, I have finally figured out..a sex addict.
He did attend a few SLA (sex love addict meetings) in which he realized that he did have somethings in common with the people, though most were online porn addicts...he was into reality shows....
And I attended some SLA meetings myself..which only depressed me as I saw all the divorced women there still dealing with the pain of the enormous deceptions, but none of them had a H with as many other women as mine...a lot of the woman, worked for business associates, so he did see them over periods of years, and multiple times, some knew he was married, others didn't.

Well, gotta go,

hope to hear from you,
avemaria

Hi Kayla <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C- you forgot about the junk horse!

She's become such a fixture, I must have overlooked her. After taking the kids to the track, I'm tempted to see if I can still get a saddle on her, but I worry about my back. Actually, I love horses and riding. The problem has always been H and his inability to deal with them realistically. That and that he really is not a horse person, so it's not something we would enjoy doing together. So, she's gotta go.

So what would MB tell you is your next step?

Plan B. I know it, it's been the next appropriate step for years. The trouble is how to support me and 4 at home kids. It's next to impossible to find a rental big enough, and I would be a single mom, with only c/s income, no rental hx, and FOUR boys. When I've called about places, I usually get the brush off. And then, I would still need to feed and clothe them.

All the while, xh has full benefit of the profits from the business we BOTH own and that he refuses to sell or to buy me out at a reasonable price. Sensing a little bitterness here?

**Conditions for reconcilliation**
1. Immediately see physician for snoring situation (it's life threatening, as well as major AB to wife)

He insists no one's ever been helped by going to the doc for snoring. Of course, he knows no one who has that problem. But I agree it's the right move.... 8 months ago!

2. Cut junk pile by 50% - 1 non-working vehicle; 1 non-working riding mower; 1 non-working push mower, etc. And the promise on the horse must be kept.

No, it's all my fault you see. I won't let him spend any (more) time or money on the mowers and so he can't get rid of them because he's not "enthusiastic" about giving them away. AND it's my fault about the horse, too, but I can't remember why.

Actually, to be fair, I think there's an ad in the paper this week for the horse and the truck. The car I can and will deal with.

3. Start working with a therapist on the BPD issue - until then, you're going to take shots like "slob", etc. and he's not even going to feel it (your pain).

Yes, this is where we are right now. I just have lots of concerns about traditional counselling because we've had so many bad experiences.

4. Spend at least 1 hour journaling on each of his five basic needs; why they are his needs; and why they are weighted higher than the other 5 needs.

This is a good one. But I don't think he's capable. Really. Maybe I'm wrong.

5. Spend at least a week in 1 hour sessions, practicing POJA skills. He wants _____________ - and he offers _____________ (like-kind of sacrifice or offering) in return.

Except for the sacrifice thing..... giver v taker with blow up to come later..... I like this a lot. Set aside a time each week to negotiate for the things he would like to have done. I have another condition to add to that one and that is that he must perform his part of the agreement first. He gets what he wants and then he backs out.

6. Make one promise this week - and then keep it (trust building exercise).

Keep it without having to be reminded in any way.

7. Make a tally sheet - teeny-tiny-notebook, chicken scratch style) to track lovebusters for the day. How many times did I make a Selfish Demand today? (I really think he needs to wake up to see just how much lovebustin he's doing regularly - and to quote my sales coach: behaviors that are tracked always improve!)

This I think is better done by the spouse. Only I really know what LBers he's doing. I don't think that half the time, or more, he even recognizes the demands or the disrespect.

Kayla, you are way tougher than I am!!! Right now we are negotiating on counsellors. He sent an email this morning and asked how his behavior was last night. I replied that it was fine and that was consistent with the abuse cycle. I asked what his plan was to end the cycle and what his time line was. Actually, I think I said my preference is that he leave, but if he's not going to do that I wanted to know what his plan was to demonstrate real change.

He suggested checking with our ins and finding a C. But you just never know who you get, and he's managed to fool several.... recalling the disastrous SH thing. So I have lots of concerns about that. I suggested that he have a list of things to ask about their qualifications before scheduling an apt. and offered to put together that list of questions.

I really don't want to go back into this mess. I think I'd like being an eccentric single witch with kids and cats! At least it would be peaceful.

C

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

I understand about the risk of getting in with the wrong therapist.

www.drirene.com - she works via phone with a lot of BPD people - or at least has a referral base that she'd lose credibility real fast if she sent someone to a lemon.

I've been generally lucky on the therapist end - our problem was knowing that the therapist can't walk his own talk - I had one boss who beat his wife up, yet was leading a group therapy support program for Adult Children of Alcoholics, most of whom had grown up witnessing the degree of abuse I did - see my NIGHTMARE thread on EN sometime - I didn't post the worst parts of the nightmare either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway - I believe the Goddess will guide you to the therapist who will support you and help you find the resources to end it, or support your husband to get well. Either way, you win!

SW

Ahh, she's princess Fiona - not too crazy about the name. I have red hair like Ariel.

You really are being difficult.... alright then... who do you want to be? When I was little I always wanted to be the wicked step-sisters cuz they had the nice clothes and didn't have to do the work!!!

b Now they have cute little matching mother/daughter collars and tags. I'm so corny.

LOL You need to get out more!!!

Absolutely, still very difficult knowing just what goes through his warped little mind.

Oh yeah. But it's stuff you need to know.

However it keeps everything in the present and makes it hard to move on.

But honey, it IS the present. It's where he is in his becoming aware. It's the place on the path right now.

He last night asked me what I thought about him calling me when he "got the urge" or whatever and we could talk about it. Tough to answer. I said that maybe we could talk, but I don't know what I would be able to say about it.

Well, this is classic MB. You should be the one he calls when he thinks he's slipping. It's NOT fair and it's scary and it hurts and it will make you crazy. But it IS radical honesty. Telling you what he knows to be the truth about himself.

What you can say is "thank you for trusting me with this, and _______ is how I would feel if you did the thing you are thinking about." So that you're reply is safe in that you are not making demands and you are not being disrespectful (remember you can think whatever you want, you just can't say it). But you are being honest about the devastation it would cause you if he went through with his desires.

And it's ok to cry. It's good for him to know that the things he considers will hurt you deeply. Recovery is not easy, and it's not just him. You both need to recover and to rebuild the M, if that's what you want. No one would fault you for saying enough is enough and walking away. But if you choose to stay, then the recovery process includes you, too.

Of course what I would really want to do is hit him in the head with a rock.

LOL LOL LOL WI has lots of rocks, big ones, everywhere..... you may have as many as you want.

I told H about it last night. He wasn't angry, but he isn't happy either. He said that it emphasises our separteness.

Yes, it does. And he needs to take responsibility for that separateness. Just like H complaining about me not sleeping with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And WHY would that be???? good grief!

Oh come on. You play truth or dare and giggle night.

What? No fighting, no racing/football/basketball video games, no running through the house and up and down the stairs sounding like the neighbors cows got into the house, no eating everything in sight and leaving a trail jets can see from 30,000 feet??? Pffftt... I wouldn't know what to do with myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have you given him another huge bloody scrape yet?

Sigh....... I'm trying to stay OUT of jail...... remember??


Why he can't choose an ordinary looking person?

H doesn't even choose them, they seem to just end up that way. When we were looking at real estate, we could pick an agent by drawing a name from a hat and it would be some tall skinny blonde thing, always.

Unlike your husband, AS is not a top EN and so the requirement for him to have a PA is merely that she be a slut. Oops - thats a DJ.

I don't think appearance was that much of a requirement for sex. Strippers, to a degree, but not the hookers. I think they just needed to be there. Except for the one he bought online, there you could see pics. Ughhhh.

All of my docs are women - even my vet.

Don't you think you should see a people doc??

I'm glad that you didn't let it ruin the day for you and kids, ok well, kids and went anyway without him. I wouldn't have done that in the past.

Oh, absolutely. I can't count the number of times we promised the kids we would do something and then left them hanging because he was a jerk and sent me into hysteria. No more!! I am not putting my life or anyone else's on hold because he behaves badly.
It was fun. 7yo came home with $3. I let them each bet $4 (2 races) and if they won anything they could continue to bet or keep the money. Of course, he thinks it's all profit!!

I think that to some extent, we all have some need of all ten.

I think that we all NEED 3. That women tend to need more to fall and stay in love. But that the others have a basic level of requirement. So, even if your spouse has no need for AS, it still would not be ok to never shower, or to wear rags. To fall below that basic level then becomes a LBer (annoying habits) rather than an unmet need.

I also agree with the time alone need from the P thread. You didn't have much to say about that.

Time alone is a need for peace and to recharge. But it's not an EN in the sense that no one falls in love with someone who leaves them alone. It's a requirement of being human, but not of romantic love.

You can do it with me. Let's see....you are doing a fine job of meeting my communication need.

Would you perhaps have a need for shopping and movies too??? LOL

Ok, this just gets spookier. H is an engineer. I was thinking that since they have so mastered this double life, we may be married to the same man. You didn't answer the name question.

Steve. Same as Harley! LOL Did you know all the guys on P's thread are engineers/scientists of one sort or another??

Brings to mind that ad from my childhood.... "What's a nice girl like me doing in a place like this!"

It's a whole different concept. Building a reference base and customer base takes time. Unpaid time.

Oh heavens yes. Even when xh's and my business reached a million in sales annually, we were still doing all kinds of unpaid work. Goes with the territory.

One of the most interesting things that I have discovered on this journey is how the abuse cycles happen around eachothers reactions. Now that I have become aware of them, I try not to do my part of the dance that escalates the cycle to the next level. Do you know what I mean?

Like what? Like refusing to escalate when he begins?

Money/sex, money/sex - no need to be friends and communicate until money/sex are where he thinks that they should be. Cart before the horse I say.

Kinda hard to work out the money and sex stuff with someone you're not communicating with and don't consider a friend!

Ran around this afternoon and picked up job apps for 17yo. I think he's taking my threat of cutting off the electicity to his room seriously. I'm tellin' ya.... It's a major Giver Snap, I've had it with all of 'em!!

C

Anyway - I believe the Goddess will guide you to the therapist who will support you and help you find the resources to end it, or support your husband to get well. Either way, you win!

Kayla you're a honey. I'll check the site, thanks.

Do you have nightmares where you are terrified but there are no images? Just sensations of evil surrounding you? I hadn't had them in a while, but when I was working really hard before my initiation, they came back.

My take on it is that whatever abuse happened that I don't remember, my escape was to go into an altered state of consciouness. So, now when I do that intentionally like in circle, my mind's inner reaction is to think that I'm being threatened. And then the nightmares come back.

I would wake up 6, 7 times a night horribly frightened, and not fully conscious. Like things were lurking in the room. That surreal feeling of being separate from your body. I really want to find a way to work through the fear to the other side, but I don't know how.

Ok, rambling. Just wondered if you had any thoughts on it.

C

Hi avemaria,

Welcome. We just call them OW's. It works and we all know what you mean. Sorry you have to be dealing with this when you thought it was all in the open.

Catch up with you later, glad you found us.

C

Hi C,

Found your other home! Must escape to here when you get overwhelmed hanging out with all of those engineers and scientists.

Hi Spywife. We haven’t met, but I’m P. P as in Persistant. (Yep, I know it’s misspelled.) Not P as in Penny. Sometimes that gets confused!

C, I read your post. Had wondered what happened last weekend that you were reluctant to talk about. I think KaylaAndy gave you some wonderful steps…if you can get him to follow them. Yes, he would for at least a while. But I think the harsh reality is there is a lack of motivation for him to change long-term. (Yes, go ahead and say it – your situation is similar to mine, and probably the answer is the same.) My wakeup call came from a real threat, actually at the time it was almost a “done deal”, of losing my wife entirely, my daughter partially, and my whole world turned upside down. I think your husband sees a real possibility that you may move out for a while. But long-term, nah, I think he’s got you because of financials. And until your ability to leave and make it on your own comes to fruition, I don’t see him feeling threatened enough to change. (Ok, threatened is a bad word, but I think you know what I mean.)

I think he is probably capable of a lot of good things, but motivation, well? I have been somewhat encouraged though by the positive results you’ve gotten lately by negotiating things. Even some things that are almost trivial (to a normal marriage), and things I believe he suspected you to scream “uncle” on long before him (like the kitchen!). But that’s an exhausting way to have a marriage, and doesn’t ensure Protection, just some needs meeting. The Protection is going to have to come from escape. Right now that means guest bedroom. In due time, when you are capable, it’s going to mean rental house. And Plan B (if you have enough energy left to do that step, rather than just D).

Cerri, you know I think the world of you. Aside from your wonderful, ok, maybe a little eccentric, qualities as a person, I think your way up there on the MB scale. I’m so excited, and very optimistic, about the direction you’re heading with coaching as a career. But whenever I think of your situation, my thoughts tend to blast through the “what she be doing that MB-aligned to recover her marriage”, and head directly to the “what steps does she need to do to be independent, and have more control and options in her life.” Because I believe the real possibility of losing you is what motivates your husband.

So, right now, I guess that means continue to Protect yourself as much as possible (by seeking solitude, and not putting up with abuse – you seem to have taken these measures), and negotiate even more (and you’ve learned that he delivers before you). Maybe even removal of some of the junk might change your outlook somewhat. And work on starting up your career or a favorable settlement on your business. You may choose to leave or not then, but it will put you in a much stronger position.

Duh, not rocket science. But what can you expect from an engineer. Take care. Gotta fix dinner. Wife took D to dance, and they’ll be back soon!

P

PS. Spywife – sorry we hijacked your thread for a bit. Feel free to post something on what used to me my thread! LOL! Oh, and I don’t think “time alone” is an EN. Actually, at the time wife listed it on her EN list, she was involved in an affair. And TA allowed that to occur. Since D-day, withdrawal, and eight months, TA hasn’t apparently been a need anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>[b]Do you have nightmares where you are terrified but there are no images? Just sensations of evil surrounding you? I hadn't had them in a while, but when I was working really hard before my initiation, they came back.

My take on it is that whatever abuse happened that I don't remember, my escape was to go into an altered state of consciouness. So, now when I do that intentionally like in circle, my mind's inner reaction is to think that I'm being threatened. And then the nightmares come back.

I would wake up 6, 7 times a night horribly frightened, and not fully conscious. Like things were lurking in the room. That surreal feeling of being separate from your body. I really want to find a way to work through the fear to the other side, but I don't know how.

Ok, rambling. Just wondered if you had any thoughts on it.

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was a frequent flyer on the Nightmare Express as a child - You know? As thin as that bedroom wall was between my parents' bedroom and mine, you'd have thought the sound traveled both ways. My son makes so much as a peep, and I'm checking on him. So imagine my surprise when my mother believes I only had one bad nightmare as a child. My sister corrected her and told her she has it on good authority (her own - we shared a room) that I was a SCREAMER! - two or three nightmares I can still remember the imagery - I couldn't have been older than kindergarten age. I think I might have been 3. But D - my sister, told my mother I woke her up with my screaming at least once or twice a week, regularly.

I don't remember feeling night terrors without the images though. The most frequent imagery in adulthood is falling - my car going off an overpass, or somehow finding myself falling from the sky with no parachute - but instead of a splat, it was a bounce, and I'd end up going through the terrifying fall all over again.

Then there's the version of driving down the road - major 10 lane freeway, which winds up turning into a cowtrail and a cave by degrees, and I find myself suffocating in sand trying to find the freeway again. I haven't had those two in a few years. I've had bad dreams too, but the images disappear after I wake up.

I've had the pursuit dreams, but the images are always set in war, crime-neighborhoods, etc. I used to have a nightmare regularly about doing the accounting in our business - adding up the payables and freaking out, then adding up the receivables and if the balance exceeded the payables, the nightmare would end and I could sleep peacefully. But if they didn't.... I'd wake up instantly petrified.

OMG Kayla!!!

I forgot about the pursuit dreams!! They're like the most constant companion of my life! When I was little, it would be hiding in a closet or a basement, or needing help and not able to dial the phone. And then it changed to not being able to close the doors tightly and lock them before the "bad guys" got in. And then it was too many doors to get to in time, or the locks were broken. Once I even dreamt that I called 911 and got sucked into one of those phone systems...."If this is a medical emergency press one. If this is an emergency relating too....." I rarely have those anymore.

The falling definitely, and being in a vehicle where the driver disappears and I can't control the car. But the worst - besides the no images - are the flying dreams. It's never fun, it's horrifying. I'm always trying to get away from something. I think it's the dreamtime version of leaving my body in an altered state.

I've always called those bad dreams and saved the nightmare word for the ones with no images. I really do want to work through them. And I have some ideas about what kinds of things trigger that fear, but I don't know how to stay an adult when that happens.

I used to have a nightmare regularly about doing the accounting in our business - adding up the payables and freaking out, then adding up the receivables and if the balance exceeded the payables, the nightmare would end and I could sleep peacefully. But if they didn't.... I'd wake up instantly petrified.

That's funny!! Ooops sorry, not funny about your business, but I've been there when I was actively involved (read: not locked out of) the business xh and I started. I used to dream about numbers swirling around me.

C

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Hi Avemaria,

Welcome, and I'm sorry to hear about your Husband. I am glad that you have come to realize already that your husband is a sex addict. Question for you....did he come clean on his own or did you catch him? I know that it is painful to think you know everything and then two years later find out that there was more. Big stuff more. I guess that the up side to that is that his concience was bothering him and that he did come clean with you. I do feel badly for you, because now you need to start healing all over again.

How is the alcoholism, bipolar, etc coming along? Are these still issues with your H? I have found that they fairly commonly use alcohol to justify their lack of control. Does he still participate in the SLA stuff?

Mine is addressing his SA, but only to appease me, which is not good enough. It needs to mean something to him, so I remain in a very flimsy version of plan B.

I have posted links before and can again if you are interested, but the online COSA group has lots of women who have Husbands with large numbers of affairs. It works for me, and has helped me to ork on me and let him be free to work on him. I couldn't do that by myself before.

Please let us know where you are at with the marriage at this point.

Take care,
Spy Wife